Sad...wonder how this plays out...
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/bank-files-to-foreclose-against-jenks-riverwalk-property
2007 called. It wants its bubble economy back.
I've posted this before regarding Riverwalk and have gotten ripped but I think it's time to really start thinking about converting it to a mixed use outlet mall. I've mentioned this idea to many Tulsans and to a person they all think it's a great idea. We just had a group of girls at work take a road trip last weekend to Texas for outlet shopping!!! I was thinking higher end stores like Coach, Banana Rep., North Face, etc. It's better than the night club scene bringing in punks and thugs vandalizing everything!! Jenks is a family community and needs family developments.
I hope Tulsa city leaders and backers of river development carefully study what worked and didn't work at Riverwalk before we embark on river development here - most importantly starting with picking who is going to do the developing.
Quote from: DTowner on February 23, 2011, 09:19:06 AM
I hope Tulsa city leaders and backers of river development carefully study what worked and didn't work at Riverwalk before we embark on river development here - most importantly starting with picking who is going to do the developing.
What went wrong?
Jerry Gordon's ego.
Same thing happened with his Easy Rider's/El Paso BBQ development.
It's my understanding that Phase 1, Phase 2 and the apartments are all separate financing. I wonder what exactly they are foreclosing against.
Riverwalk always suffered from being one phase short of a destination.
I think if he could have got phase 2 started much earlier.. and completed... without that big honkin gap between em...
woulda coulda shoulda
Quote from: Conan71 on February 23, 2011, 10:11:16 AM
What went wrong?
Jerry Gordon's ego.
Same thing happened with his Easy Rider's/El Paso BBQ development.
Gordon was clearly a problem from the get go as he appeared to over promise and under deliver on all fronts.
I think the location is questionable - issolated. Sure, maybe after Phase III is completed and other developments come along, it won't feel that way, but that doesn't do the early businesses any good.
I think the design was misguided. The first impression is the service entrance side of a strip mall, complete with dumpsters.
Failure to draw an anchor tenant that creates foot traffic during the day. The movie theater might have helped if it was closer to the rest of the development, but even theaters don't draw much of a week day crowd during the school year.
Unclear focus. What was the target audiance? It appeared to start out as a town center by the river, but became more a food/bar district - at least those are primarily the businesses that have survived.
I believe river development in Tulsa will be more difficult than some want to believe. Unlike many cities with successful river developments (Little Rock, Memphis, Louisville, etc), Tulsa was not and has never been a river town - the river was ancillary and irrelevant to our development and prosperity. I believe Riverwalk gives everyone a chance to step back and learn from the successes and mistakes of others in an environment that is more relevant to Tulsa.
His house building company seems to be gone too, the website for Timber Carver Homes is gone. I know that the city of Jenks had a falling out with him years ago over phase II of Riverwalk.
And don't forget his crying last fall about the city of Tulsa not helping him with river development on the west bank.
River development is an odd dichotomy. So far Blue Rose and Red Rock Canyon seem to be the only ones who have inviting views on the front and backs of their restaurants. I'm actually surprised Fusco's restaurant has made it this long with reports of mediocre food and service and not even taking advantage of the river view (at least not last time I was there about 2 years ago).
I totally agree with the assessment of driving up to RWC, you are looking at what would normally be the alley of a strip mall. I don't know that in itself has killed the foot traffic. It's simply a failure to sustain ample merchants and/or really great food/beverage businesses.
High end furniture and nic-nac stores are a total crap-shoot and generally only work in resort communities which attract mostly higher level incomes like Vail village, or if they are set in with similar merchants like Utica Square. I honestly don't see how independent retailers will survive there unless they've got a great specialty line which is in demand or also have a great web presence.
What has managed to succeed over the long haul at RWC has been places with fairly good food, drinks, and which seem to take good advantage of the outdoor atmosphere with their seating.
I simply think Jerry Gordon's vision is far grander than reality or he's a megalomaniac who believes he's smarter than common wisdom when it comes to retail in Tulsa.
I'm glad the Drillers didn't fall for the whole pitch that Jenks would be the new destination while downtown would crumble. Glad to see the downtown haters proven wrong. Downtown is growing while the Jenks riverwalk is bankrupt. I know a ton of people who never watched many Driller games who now attend multiple times a year because of the location downtown and the availability of pre and post game activity nearby. I know for a fact I would never have gone to Jenks for the Drillers, and I think the team would have gone bankrupt as well if forced into Jenks. I'm sure there are still people rooting against downtown, and as much as I hate to see anything fail in this town, I'm a little happy inside that the Jenks riverwalk project has been proven to be unsuccessful and that downtown is the place to be, like most other major metropolitan areas.
Any chance the low water dams would've helped this development?
Quote from: DowntownDan on February 23, 2011, 02:43:00 PM
I'm glad the Drillers didn't fall for the whole pitch that Jenks would be the new destination while downtown would crumble. Glad to see the downtown haters proven wrong. Downtown is growing while the Jenks riverwalk is bankrupt. I know a ton of people who never watched many Driller games who now attend multiple times a year because of the location downtown and the availability of pre and post game activity nearby. I know for a fact I would never have gone to Jenks for the Drillers, and I think the team would have gone bankrupt as well if forced into Jenks. I'm sure there are still people rooting against downtown, and as much as I hate to see anything fail in this town, I'm a little happy inside that the Jenks riverwalk project has been proven to be unsuccessful and that downtown is the place to be, like most other major metropolitan areas.
You ready to build a wall around Tulsa to keep suburbanites out? I know this is TNF, not Jenks Now, not Owasso Now etc but you are carrying a lot of hate. It will give you acid reflux if you aren't careful.
Quote from: Townsend on February 23, 2011, 02:44:59 PM
Any chance the low water dams would've helped this development?
I really don't see why. Water nor lack therof doesn't drive people to places like RWC. Good food, entertainment, and retail that people want does. So long as the service and food remain good at Blue Rose that place will pack them in even if the river is dry enough to walk across. Brown river water isn't real compelling. Oceanside is a different story.
The problem is, there's about five or six good tenants paying rent toward a mortgage which was taken out with the intention of being paid by the rent of 20 or so good tenants (figures may not be accurate and items in your rearview mirror may be bigger than they look... I think you know what I'm getting at).
Quote from: Conan71 on February 23, 2011, 03:52:37 PM
I really don't see why. Water nor lack therof doesn't drive people to places like RWC. Good food, entertainment, and retail that people want does. So long as the service and food remain good at Blue Rose that place will pack them in even if the river is dry enough to walk across. Brown river water isn't real compelling. Oceanside is a different story.
I was thinking it might've attracted more shops which in turn attracted more customers. (area development looking promising due to support for dams and perhaps water taxis from the Casino) That last part might've been a rumor from Wormtongue or something.
Quote from: Townsend on February 23, 2011, 03:55:50 PM
I was thinking it might've attracted more shops which in turn attracted more customers. (area development looking promising due to support for dams and perhaps water taxis from the Casino) That last part might've been a rumor from Wormtongue or something.
There are only so many bored Doctor's wives to open trendy boutiques which don't need to turn a profit. Blame Obamacare on the lack of development. Doctor's are reining in their wives retail ambitions now ;)
Of course the alternative is the doctor's wife staying home and banging the pool boy, so they might want to reconsider.
Some of have already probably seen this but here are the offical comments from Jerry Gordon concerning the foreclosure:
http://media2.kjrh.com/html/pdfs/RWC%20comment.pdf (http://media2.kjrh.com/html/pdfs/RWC%20comment.pdf)
Still suffering from a little narcissism I see.
Something about not liking the view from the mezzanine.
I bet if it was sucessful he would have taken full credit......
From my understanding, it is only phase II that is being forclosed on. Not that I've got a solid source of information or anything, so don't put too much stock into it. Of course the same person that told me this also told me that Phase I stays pretty busy, so that should tell ya something.
well its nice to see that last post was helpful....can I have my 10 seconds back?
Article in today's Tulsa World makes it sound like loans on both Phase I and II are included in the foreclosure, as well as a third smaller loan.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20110224_32_E1_CUTLIN145250
Quote from: DTowner on February 24, 2011, 09:48:48 AM
Article in today's Tulsa World makes it sound like loans on both Phase I and II are included in the foreclosure, as well as a third smaller loan.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20110224_32_E1_CUTLIN145250
That is what it said, its an automatic clause in the loan....
Quote from: Conan71 on February 23, 2011, 03:59:26 PM
There are only so many bored Doctor's wives to open trendy boutiques which don't need to turn a profit. Blame Obamacare on the lack of development. Doctor's are reining in their wives retail ambitions now ;)
You're forgetting the trial lawyers' wives. ;D
As long as Sand Springs exists, the river will continue to be an open sewer. Maybe we (Tulsa) could just buy out SS and stop the dumping?
Another low water dam will just make another sewage lagoon, further downstream.
Meanwhile another restaurant is slated to open on the river in Jenks, this one by the hotel and aquarium south of the bridge.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 24, 2011, 09:30:06 PM
As long as Sand Springs exists, the river will continue to be an open sewer. Maybe we (Tulsa) could just buy out SS and stop the dumping?
Another low water dam will just make another sewage lagoon, further downstream.
You are a complete fool. What exactly is it you think Sand Springs is dumping into the Arkansas? Raw untreated sewage?
Stick to topics you understand like when a McDonald's drive through is referenced in a thread. :-*
Quote from: SXSW on February 24, 2011, 09:51:14 PM
Meanwhile another restaurant is slated to open on the river in Jenks, this one by the hotel and aquarium south of the bridge.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817)
Ya thats Jimmy competing against himself.(Los Cabos)
Here's a thought. Bring in a flying trapeze. Oh wait, what ?
Quote from: DolfanBob on February 25, 2011, 09:05:00 AM
Ya thats Jimmy competing against himself.(Los Cabos)
Here's a thought. Bring in a flying trapeze. Oh wait, what ?
$5.5 million to build a restaurant! That's just shocking.
Quote from: SXSW on February 24, 2011, 09:51:14 PM
Meanwhile another restaurant is slated to open on the river in Jenks, this one by the hotel and aquarium south of the bridge.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817)
Seems like a lofty ambition, and maybe a little pricey on the food side.
I give it 6 months.....
Quote from: SXSW on February 24, 2011, 09:51:14 PM
Meanwhile another restaurant is slated to open on the river in Jenks, this one by the hotel and aquarium south of the bridge.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817)
The soft opening is March 5th and the Grand opening is March 7th.
So far I have been told that he is going to keep the prices on the lower to mid range side.
"The food is a mix of traditional American fare, with seafood, steaks and burgers served in a price range of about $10 for burgers to $40 for steaks and seafood"
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20110224_298_0_JENKSW713817
I guess I'm not part of his target audience.
Name calling? How original. Just what would be expected.
Have you ever actually stood anywhere along the west bank at looked at the water? Remember those big brown puffy clouds of foam that occasionally come drifting by? And the lighter foaming of the water in so many areas. That is sewage. Most the time treated. During a big rain or some other high water flow event - it is raw sewage. Too bad one can know so little about their surrounding.
Doesn't even count the oil sludge discharges. But the EPA has been working with them for years and it's getting better every year. There's even a WalMart on the site of the old Zink smelter now. How great is that!! Having Keystone lake to periodically flush it doesn't hurt, either.
There may be hope after all!! Good thing we don't have to drink that water isn't it? Sorry Muskogee!
Good thing we even HAVE an EPA left to help clean up that river and surrounding area, huh?
$5.5 million is an large sum to invest in a free standing restaurant in Tulsa/Jenks and not have large corporate/chain buying power, marketing and name recognition backing you up. He has a lot of experience in the business, but I'm glad it's not my money at risk.
Quote from: DTowner on February 25, 2011, 02:42:48 PM
$5.5 million is an large sum to invest in a free standing restaurant in Tulsa/Jenks and not have large corporate/chain buying power, marketing and name recognition backing you up. He has a lot of experience in the business, but I'm glad it's not my money at risk.
Maybe he can be the Elliot Nelson of Jenks.
Quote from: Townsend on February 25, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Maybe he can be the Elliot Nelson of Jenks.
He already is...They both make shitty Mexican food...... ;D
Quote from: Breadburner on February 25, 2011, 03:06:24 PM
He already is...They both make shitty Mexican food...... ;D
Bahahahahahaha!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
Name calling? How original. Just what would be expected.
Have you ever actually stood anywhere along the west bank at looked at the water? Remember those big brown puffy clouds of foam that occasionally come drifting by? And the lighter foaming of the water in so many areas. That is sewage. Most the time treated. During a big rain or some other high water flow event - it is raw sewage. Too bad one can know so little about their surrounding.
Doesn't even count the oil sludge discharges. But the EPA has been working with them for years and it's getting better every year. There's even a WalMart on the site of the old Zink smelter now. How great is that!! Having Keystone lake to periodically flush it doesn't hurt, either.
There may be hope after all!! Good thing we don't have to drink that water isn't it? Sorry Muskogee!
Good thing we even HAVE an EPA left to help clean up that river and surrounding area, huh?
I simply cannot let this go. Now you've made me break my vows of silence. Its no wonder Conan got snippy with you Heiro. You are perpetuating allegations about the river that have been repeated so often, and have been so poorly challenged, that they now have urban legend status. I agree one should know more about their surroundings, including you.
So, if you really think your hypotheses that the airy, sandy little mounds of foam sometimes seen on the river are the result of Sand Springs sewage, and that oil sludge is discharged into the river, maybe you could answer these questions:
a. Why do the foam mounds only occur infrequently and are so widespread? In fact so infrequent that they coincide with the change in seasons?
b. Why are there floating foam mounds found upstream of where the sewage treatment plant is located? In fact, right below the dam? In fact on lakes and streams no where near treatment plants?
c. Do you even know where the most pollution comes from on this river? Hint, its not near a sewage treatment plant or a refinery, or a pipeline.
c. Why don't the little mounds of foam smell? Why are they gritty?
d. Who exactly is putting oil sludge into the river, where can it be seen and how do you know the EPA is involved in reducing it? Seems like that would be pretty well known by those of us who actually use the river (rather than stand on its banks).
e. Who are "they" and "them"?
Here's a better description of what's happening on that river. I had reason to research it since I have spent the better part of the last decade in, around and on it. Like most things the floating mounds are the result of several factors, none of which are terribly scary. It was described to me by a fellow with a biology degree and good insights.
a. It happens seasonally, not all year long (yet the treatment plants work 24/7) because at the end of the winter the spring rains from upstream and in the watershed begin to fill up Keystone and they have to discharge large amounts into the river. That means discharges of cold, dense, low oxygen water that has recently been up to 70 feet below the spillway.
b. That cold water is laden with bacteria, (common in all lakes and streams) which suddenly is released as it is propelled into the warm shallow river below.
c. Keystone lake is salty on the Cimarron side because that river has tributaries that are salty. The salt is part of the froth.
As far as the oil sludge I just don't know where you're seeing it or who would be doing it. There are some capped wells along all the rivers in this part of the country but nothing you could call sludge. I sometimes see the result of past discharges by analyzing the rocks from different areas that I collect as a hobby, but nothing indicates recent discharges. Oil stinks too, seems like I would have smelled it.
In fact H, the river is surprisingly clean upstream of Zink Lake and clear as well. On a hot summer day you can see the catfish and bass moving around. They are the best indication of a healthy river. You should float it sometime.
I know its popular to trash the river, the Arena, the Riverwalk, Downtown, the burbs, etc. Heck, I've been guilty of it, but being factual is pretty important. Part of the problem of not realizing the potential of our river and our area is the promulgation of these myths.
Thanks
I knew it was you when I saw the name....
Also, thanks for clarifying heironomous's wisdom.
Quote from: ZYX on February 25, 2011, 04:24:28 PM
I knew it was you when I saw the name....
Dad just slapped mom at the dinner table.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
Name calling? How original. Just what would be expected.
Have you ever actually stood anywhere along the west bank at looked at the water? Remember those big brown puffy clouds of foam that occasionally come drifting by? And the lighter foaming of the water in so many areas. That is sewage. Most the time treated. During a big rain or some other high water flow event - it is raw sewage. Too bad one can know so little about their surrounding.
Doesn't even count the oil sludge discharges. But the EPA has been working with them for years and it's getting better every year. There's even a WalMart on the site of the old Zink smelter now. How great is that!! Having Keystone lake to periodically flush it doesn't hurt, either.
There may be hope after all!! Good thing we don't have to drink that water isn't it? Sorry Muskogee!
Good thing we even HAVE an EPA left to help clean up that river and surrounding area, huh?
Considering Waterboy/Aqua Man and I have spent a lot of time on the Arkansas River, you tried to slip one past a couple of people who actually use the river and know what goes on and doesn't go on with the river. In addition, one of my fellow teammates at Tulsa Rowing Club works for the Feds as an environmentalist for the fish and game service. According to her, there's no oil sludge being discharged upstream and there's nothing leaching out of the Least Tern islands either. There was an incident with the Sinclair Refinery for an "accidental" discharge for which I believe they were fined $5mm.
Repeating what Aqua Man said, this is how myths keep getting perpetuated about the river. I've also worked around the waste water industry for the better part of 16 years providing chemicals and equipment to it.
Again, I suggest you stick to topics you have real knowledge of rather than spreading incorrect rumors.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2011, 04:42:38 PM
Again, I suggest you stick to topics you have real knowledge of...
What exactly would that be?
Quote from: guido911 on February 25, 2011, 04:50:26 PM
What exactly would that be?
Rove, Bush, Murdoch, RWRE for example ;)
My question is, he say's that he is traing a staff of 125 to serve up to 400 diners at a time. And I know that for the first few months they may get that and more because it is new, but after that is he going to be able to draw enough people on a nightly basis to sustain the business? From the article it speaks of a price range of $10 for a burger to $40 for steaks and seafood. How often are people going out to dinner going to spend that kind of money? The former Mrs. and I might go out every six to eight weeks for steak dinner, but we very rarely spent more than $60 on food and $20 on drinks. About every three months we would go out for something nice.
I'm not trying to knock someone for starting a new business, and I hope that he suceedes, and from what I have read he may get business from across the river from the casino, I just think that this is a very lofty business, in an area where other medium to high end places have started and failed in short order. Maybe the fact that it is on land that is not part of RWC, and it's on private land might help. Just hope he has suppliers of mid to top end for the menu.
He probably sees the prices at the Melting Pot, which is packed every single time I go (much more rare than it used to be) and wants some of that action.
Great strides have been made. Twenty years ago, the smell was very noticeably sewage. That's why I made the comments about the messes getting cleaned up. It is great to have a river that is fit for use. I have even been fishing a few times at the pedestrian bridge (about 1 1/2 years ago). Very nice. Didn't catch any, but I think I would be tempted to eat them if I did. The oil discharges were coming from a refinery site right next to the SS sewer plant.
One of the main takeaways that I would like people to get from this is that without the EPA, none of the cleanups would have been done. At least not yet. Too bad so many want to get rid of it.
Maybe we can get KRMG to restart the raft race??
We are in the third 5 year plan for cleaning up the Sand Springs refinery discharges. SS off the Superfund list!
http://www.epa.gov/region6/6sf/pdffiles/0601357.pdf
And an older one - Zink smelter.
http://www.epa.gov/region6/6sf/pdffiles/sandspringssuccess2006.pdf
Well, Aqua...I guess you just can't stand to stay away! Welcome for whatever time you can spend here!
Thanks for the links. I recognized the Sinclair pics because I happened to have visited the site about the time they were working on it in 2005. My airboat was stranded on the sand bar south of the site and i was hoping they would help me drag it out. They wouldn't. In fact they didn't even want me on the site. I showed them where the tilting concrete water pickups you see in the one photo were leaking. Good to see they are actively monitoring that area.