Inhofe says he won't take part in Tulsa holiday parade
By JIM MYERS World Washington Bureau
Published: 11/30/2010
WASHINGTON – U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe announced Tuesday that he will not participate in Tulsa's Parade of Lights until organizers put ""Christ'' back in the event's title. "Last year, the forces of political correctness removed the word 'Christmas' and replaced it with 'Holiday' instead,'' the Oklahoma Republican said. "I am deeply saddened and disappointed by this change.''
Inhofe, who served as Tulsa's mayor from 1978 to 1984, said he had participated in the parade annually, riding horseback as his children and grandchildren watched. "I did not do so last year, because I'm not going to ride in a Christmas parade that doesn't recognize Christmas,'' he said. "I am hopeful that the good people of Tulsa and the city's leadership will demand a correction to this shameful attempt to take Christ, the true reason for our celebration, out of the parade's title. Until the parade is again named the Christmas Parade of Lights, I will not participate.''
Scheduled this year on Dec. 11, the downtown parade dates back more than 70 years
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101130_11_0_WASHIN967856&allcom=1
He should get off his high horse.
This holiday season predates Christmas and many other religions celebrate in early December.
To me, Christmas is December 25th. Everything else is the holiday season. If this parade was on December 25th, it should be called a Christmas parade. This downtown Tulsa tradition is on December 11th this year.
now keep in mind that it was originally the B-day of Sol Invictus, the sun god. But yeah, why can't people like him get that saying happy holidays is more about including everyone then excluding christians?
Inhofe is feeling the effects of His Noodly Appendage.
Quote from: Ed W on December 01, 2010, 05:38:54 AM
Inhofe is feeling the effects of His Noodly Appendage.
Those dirty pastafarians!
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 30, 2010, 10:28:51 PM
He should get off his high horse.
This holiday season predates Christmas and many other religions celebrate in early December.
To me, Christmas is December 25th. Everything else is the holiday season. If this parade was on December 25th, it should be called a Christmas parade. This downtown Tulsa tradition is on December 11th this year.
Was this parade previously called the "Christmas Parade of Lights"? If so, was it previously held just on Christmas day? And one other thing, would Tulsa have this parade at this time if it were not for the Christmas holiday?
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 10:24:17 AM
Was this parade previously called the "Christmas Parade of Lights"? If so, was it previously held just on Christmas day? And one other thing, would Tulsa have this parade at this time if it were not for the Christmas holiday?
So everything that happens during December has to be branded Christmas? I go grocery shopping and I have to call it Christmas shopping? I have a party and it has to be called a Christmas party?
What is wrong with being inclusive of the other holidays? The parade is closer to Hanukuh than to Christmas. It has to be your holiday only or you won't participate? Are you only going to recognize your holiday?
What would Jesus do? Do you think He would want to share joy with all or demand all the attention be only on His birthday?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 12:34:12 PM
So everything that happens during December has to be branded Christmas? I go grocery shopping and I have to call it Christmas shopping? I have a party and it has to be called a Christmas party?
What is wrong with being inclusive of the other holidays? The parade is closer to Hanukuh than to Christmas. It has to be your holiday only or you won't participate? Are you only going to recognize your holiday?
What would Jesus do? Do you think He would want to share joy with all or demand all the attention be only on His birthday?
Couldn't you just answer my questions instead of going off on some "PC" rant about inclusiveness?
QuoteWas this parade previously called the "Christmas Parade of Lights"? If so, was it previously held just on Christmas day? And one other thing, would Tulsa have this parade at this time if it were not for the Christmas holiday?
You just don't want to respond to my rant.
The parade was started by downtown retailers as a way to get more shoppers downtown. It featured Santa Claus first, way before it was called the Parade of lights. Does that answer your question?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 01:17:49 PM
You just don't want to respond to my rant.
The parade was started by downtown retailers as a way to get more shoppers downtown. It featured Santa Claus first, way before it was called the Parade of lights. Does that answer your question?
Did the parade have the word "Christmas" in its title or not?
As for your rant, if I am going out to purchase gifts for my family or buy food for dinner on Christmas, sorry, but I call that "Christmas shopping". Not sure what else I would call it. As for being inclusive of all faiths/beliefs, I think that's great (although I am not sure about Kwanzaa--but if you want to celebrate it have at it). But does changing the name of a parade mean you are being inclusive or are you just pandering to the politically correct class?
As for what Jesus would do, I do not pretend to know what His thoughts are on the subject. But since you apparently do, what does He think about Kwanzaa?
edited.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 01:30:09 PM
As for what Jesus would do, I do not pretend to know what His thoughts are on the subject. But since you apparently do, what does He think about Kwanzaa?
I think Jesus would agree with the seven principles of Kwanzaa. Which of the seven do you think he would not agree with?
Unity, Self-Determination, Collective Responsibility, Cooperative Economics, Purpose, Creativity, and Faith.
Back to the point of the thread...I believe Senator Inhofe is just playing divisive politics to appease to the majority.
The Republican National Committee sells a "Happy Holidays" ornament on it's website.
http://www.gopstore.com/cgi-bin/rnc/LTD104
Do you think Senator Inhofe is going to send out a press release against the Republican National Committee?
Of course not.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 01:39:18 PM
I think Jesus would agree with the seven principles of Kwanzaa. Which of the seven do you think he would not agree with?
Unity, Self-Determination, Collective Responsibility, Cooperative Economics, Purpose, Creativity, and Faith.
Not sure what "collective responsibility" and "cooperative economics" mean, but I cannot disagree with the others. As for its founder, Karenga, well that's another matter entirely. But who knew RM was a Kwanzaa fan.
So yes or no, did this parade have the word "Christmas" in its title since its inception? I do not know since I have only been in Oklahoma for fifteen years.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 01:45:27 PM
Back to the point of the thread...I believe Senator Inhofe is just playing divisive politics to appease to the majority.
You shocked by that? A politician playing to his/her constituency? I appreciate your use of the word "majority", because in this context it sounds like the "majority" is being told they must be "inclusive".
For the record, I do not care one way or the other since I am not going to this event. If I go to any it will be the parade in Bixby.
I hope he don't find out that the the actual date of Christ's birth is not December 25th. That date was derived from Pharmuthi 25 which is associated with his death. There is some wide speculation, but most of what I've read indicates he was born in January about 2-3 b.c.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 01:49:32 PM
Not sure what "collective responsibility" and "cooperative economics" mean, but I cannot disagree with the others. But who knew RM was a Kwanzaa fan.
I am fascinated by different faiths and traditions. You really should branch out. A smart guy like you can find many good things in other faiths.
I think collective responsibility is meant to encompass the concept of building a community together and accepting that other's problems are also your problems and to work together to solve them.
I think cooperative economics is meant to explain the concept of building and owning businesses and encouraging buying locally.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 30, 2010, 10:24:52 PM
U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe announced Tuesday that he will not participate in Tulsa's Parade of Lights until organizers put ""Christ'' back in the event's title. "Last year, the forces of political correctness removed the word 'Christmas' and replaced it with 'Holiday' instead,'' the Oklahoma Republican said. "I am deeply saddened and disappointed by this change.''
Inhofe, who served as Tulsa's mayor from 1978 to 1984, said he had participated in the parade annually, riding horseback as his children and grandchildren watched. "I did not do so last year, because I'm not going to ride in a Christmas parade that doesn't recognize Christmas,'' he said. "I am hopeful that the good people of Tulsa and the city's leadership will demand a correction to this shameful attempt to take Christ, the true reason for our celebration, out of the parade's title. Until the parade is again named the Christmas Parade of Lights, I will not participate.''
Wow, talk about Christian intolerance! I guess that's just the hallmark of every legislator from Oklahoma. Is intolerance really the message we want to send at this time of year, with all the "come-together" holidays? Is being known for their intolerance the legacy they want to leave?
A good portion of the Christian community in Tulsa seems particularly keen on the idea of "a la cart", whether it's applied to the Bible, tolerance, judgment, any form of morality, and apparently now, parades. They get to pick and choose what applies and when and where and under what circumstances things are appropriate, according to their own agenda. How about this: Christmas isn't even Christian. It's a pagan holiday. So let's take someone else's holiday, call it our own, change the story and then get mad to let other faiths be included. Real classy.
http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm (http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm)
The parade isn't held on Christmas. If it was, then by all means, call it a Christmas parade. If we held a Thanksgiving Day parade on November 12, it couldn't really be called a Thanksgiving Day parade.
December Holidays:
5 - Ashura
6 - St. Nicholas Day
8 - Bodhi Day - Buddha's Enlightenment
12 - Virgin of Guadalupe
13 - Santa Lucia Day
16-25 - Las Posadas
21-28 - Hanukkah
25 - Christmas
26 - Kwanzaa
Given that there are no fewer than 9 holidays in December, I think it's safe to say that it's not just all about Christmas.
Cities all across the world have parades throughout November and December, and a good number of them are called "Santa Claus Parade" or "Holiday Parade". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_holiday_parades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_holiday_parades)
And frankly, I am actually more excited to go to the parade since Inhofe won't be there.
Funny thing. . .
I was at my daughter's Kindergarten a few days ago (Jenks) and I noticed that all of the classrooms have event calendars lining the top of the room (laminated strips with the days running across them, and images corresponding to events and holidays). Hanukkah is depicted with the Torah. Kwanzaa is highlighted by an African American family lighting candles. Ramadan, Ashra, Budi, and Diwali are all highlighted with images.
Edit: St. Patrick's day was the only remotely Christian thing on the calendar, and it was signified by a leprechaun.
December 25 was just another number on the calendar. No Christmas or Easter on any of the Calendars. Don't really care, but it was a bit strange to me. These were in all of the classrooms. They were printed by some public school supply company, so I assume they are standard issue.
Quote from: dsjeffries on December 01, 2010, 02:55:36 PM
Wow, talk about Christian intolerance! I guess that's just the hallmark of every legislator from Oklahoma. Is intolerance really the message we want to send at this time of year, with all the "come-together" holidays? Is being known for their intolerance the legacy they want to leave?
Christian intolerance? What are you talking about. Inhofe is upset that the "Christmas" parade, which apparently has been a tradition for a very very long time in Tulsa, has been renamed for no other reason than PC and he is expressing his feelings in a manner he sees fit. He's not stopping you or anyone else from attending. Guaran-freakin-teed that if this had been the "Ramadan" parade that was renamed, fatwas and suicide bombings would be taking place.
My gosh, since when is standing up for one's faith, belief, and tradition considered intolerance?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 02:04:27 PM
I am fascinated by different faiths and traditions. You really should branch out. A smart guy like you can find many good things in other faiths.
Back in undergrad I took a religious history course. Spent a lot of time on Asian and middle eastern religions. It was interesting. In the real world, I shopped around many different religions (Southern Baptist, charismatics), but settled in finally with Roman Catholicism.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 03:40:42 PM
Christian intolerance? What are you talking about. Inhofe is upset that the "Christmas" parade, which apparently has been a tradition for a very very long time in Tulsa, has been renamed for no other reason than PC and he is expressing his feelings in a manner he sees fit. He's not stopping you or anyone else from attending. Guaran-freakin-teed that if this had been the "Ramadan" parade that was renamed, fatwas and suicide bombings would be taking place.
My gosh, since when is standing up for one's faith, belief, and tradition considered intolerance?
It's not a religious parade, so why pick one religion to name it after? And since when is it part of Christianity to adorn floats with lights, put fat people in red suits pulled in a sleigh by magical creatures, all to sell toys and gadgets and gizmos?
And it's outrageous statements like the ones you just made about suicide bombings that turns it into intolerance.
Stand up for your own religion all you want, but when that involves slamming others, you've crossed a threshold.
Quote from: dsjeffries on December 01, 2010, 03:52:57 PM
It's not a religious parade, so why pick one religion to name it after? And since when is it part of Christianity to adorn floats with lights, put fat people in red suits pulled in a sleigh by magical creatures, all to sell toys and gadgets and gizmos?
And it's outrageous statements like the ones you just made about suicide bombings that turns it into intolerance.
Stand up for your own religion all you want, but when that involves slamming others, you've crossed a threshold.
So now I guess I too am intolerant. And what am I slamming by the way. Draw a cartoon of Mohammad, get death threats; write a book showing the negative side to Islam, get death threats; announce "draw Mohammad day, get death threats, or be a Christian in a Muslim land, get sentenced to death. We won't talk about what happens to "adulterers" and homosexuals in those lands. This is FACT whether you like it or not. But if it makes you feel better calling me intolerant for pointing that out, fire away.
Now, depict the virgin Mary with elephant dung on her, or place a crucifix in a jar of urine, or most recently make a video showing ants crawling over Jesus, well I guess that just okay in your world. And the fact that I am offended? Well I guess that makes me more intolerant.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 04:51:34 PM
Now, depict the virgin Mary with elephant dung on her, or place a crucifix in a jar of urine, or most recently make a video showing ants crawling over Jesus, well I guess that just okay in your world. And the fact that I am offended? Well I guess that makes me more intolerant.
So you're saying that all of these were taken in stride by people of Christian faith as opposed to the other faith's reactions to being offended?
Quote from: Townsend on December 01, 2010, 05:07:21 PM
So you're saying that all of these were taken in stride by people of Christian faith as opposed to the other faith's reactions to being offended?
I forgot about "Burn a Koran" day.
To your point, I heard there were a few death threats called in over the piss Jesus exhibit. But I do not recall our government issuing a fatwa or calling for the death of someone that disagreed with Christianity. Like it or not, in this country a massive majority of Americans (according to wiki 76% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) call themselves "Christian". And I dare say most are very tolerant people and quietly put up with attacks on their faith by "artists" or others. Some like me, though, find more intolerance from the PC elitists out there that just want to ignore those facts.
On the topic, what is the freakin big deal over calling this parade the "Christmas" parade? I mean seriously, are there people out there that distraught that their faith is not in the title of the parade? You know what, just cancel the thing. That way, no one gets offended.
Ooooh.... and all this time, I thought he didn't like it that they got rid of the word "PSO"...
Tangent: Since this is the "Parade of Lights," and Haunukkah is the "Festival of Lights," perhaps we should call it the "Haunukkah Parade/Festival of Lights." Would Inhofe ride in that one? Afterall, Christ was a Jew...
Our aged senator is a dinosaur and an incurable embarrasment to our state. This is a "news item" b/c it's fun and easy to poke fun at Oklahoma...especially since the recent passage of decidedly useless and bizarre state questions. Though this stunt mostly makes Inhofe look like a dork, it also reinforces the concept of OK as a backwoods haven for the intolerant and ignorant.
Although we can joke about this all day, the truth is that I'm glad that Tulsa is finally starting to think about the value of inclusiveness and respect for diversity. Why not have a parade that makes all feel welcome?
Unfortunately, since Inhofe's brand of stupidity inspires the radically ignorant to take action, McNellies is apparently being bombarded by hate calls from right wing wackos...most of whom have probably never been downtown for a parade or anything else...certainly not a fine dark beer.
You may remember that there wouldn't even be a Parade of Lights if the McNellies Group and some of their partners had not stepped up to the plate to sponsor the thing (to the tune of several thousand dollars). Trivia: How much did Inhofe donate to the parade? Answer: none.
Hopefully all the sane people in town will step up and show their appreciation and support to the donors for their generosity and desire to preserve a community tradition--and welcoming all Tulsans to come enjoy the parade.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 05:24:17 PM
I forgot about "Burn a Koran" day.
To your point, I heard there were a few death threats called in over the piss Jesus exhibit. But I do not recall our government issuing a fatwa or calling for the death of someone that disagreed with Christianity. Like it or not, in this country a massive majority of Americans (according to wiki 76% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) call themselves "Christian". And I dare say most are very tolerant people and quietly put up with attacks on their faith by "artists" or others. Some like me, though, find more intolerance from the PC elitists out there that just want to ignore those facts.
On the topic, what is the freakin big deal over calling this parade the "Christmas" parade? I mean seriously, are there people out there that distraught that their faith is not in the title of the parade? You know what, just cancel the thing. That way, no one gets offended.
And what about those that would complain about seeing a hannakah float in a christmas parage?
Quote from: custosnox on December 01, 2010, 05:48:58 PM
And what about those that would complain about seeing a hannakah float in a christmas parage?
I wouldn't be one of them. But no worries now since we are having "holiday" parades.
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 03:40:42 PM
My gosh, since when is standing up for one's faith, belief, and tradition considered intolerance?
It is not just standing up for your faith, belief and tradition. It is saying that we must use the word Christ and only Christ in naming things is what makes you intolerant on this topic.
No one is attacking Christianity. I wish Senator Inhofe participated and greeted every person with the words of his choice. He is free to say Merry Christmas over and over again at this parade or on the floor of the Senate if he feels so strongly about it.
But why the insistance that if anyone doesn't add Christmas to every event in December they have attacked Jesus?
If anything, saying Happy Holidays probably says faith better. Instead of just wishing people have a merry December 25th, you are saying we hope you are happy on the Holy Days.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 06:03:06 PM
It is not just standing up for your faith, belief and tradition. It is saying that we must use the word Christ and only Christ in naming things is what makes you intolerant on this topic.
No one is attacking Christianity. I wish Senator Inhofe participated and greeted every person with the words of his choice. He is free to say Merry Christmas over and over again at this parade or on the floor of the Senate if he feels so strongly about it.
But why the insistance that if anyone doesn't add Christmas to every event in December they have attacked Jesus?
If anything, saying Happy Holidays probably says faith better. Instead of just wishing people have a merry December 25th, you are saying we hope you are happy on the Holy Days.
I do not think that you or anyone is attacking Jesus by supporting the name change of the parade. But attacking Inhofe (and you should know I am not very pleased with him over his recent earmark vote) because he does not share your take on the name change is what I am bothered by.
As for the insistence of adding "Christmas" to every event this time of the year, again, as I wrote earlier, if I am doing something specifically for Christmas (like buying gifts), then I will attach the word "Christmas" to that. What would you call buying Christmas presents or preparing Christmas dinner?
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 06:15:33 PM
What would you call buying Christmas presents...?
My sister's birthday is December 18th. When I am shopping for her next week Senator Inhofe would probably insist it be called Christmas shopping. I mean, the stores are all decorated for Christmas, the background music in every store would be Christmas tunes, and it would be hard to find wrapping paper in anything but Christmas patterns.
But it wouldn't be Christmas shopping.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 06:21:47 PM
My sister's birthday is December 18th.
A fine day to be born, if I do say so myself! ;)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 06:21:47 PM
My sister's birthday is December 18th. When I am shopping for her next week Senator Inhofe would probably insist it be called Christmas shopping. I mean, the stores are all decorated for Christmas, the background music in every store would be Christmas tunes, and it would be hard to find wrapping paper in anything but Christmas patterns.
But it wouldn't be Christmas shopping.
Good grief RM. I get it. You don't like Inhofe. Ponder doesn't like Inhofe. Is this whole thing about the parade just a vehicle so can vent about him some more?
Inhofe is the one who sent out the press release.
If you want press, it has strings.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 06:44:45 PM
Inhofe is the one who sent out the press release.
If you want press, it has strings.
You are right about that.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 01:17:49 PM
You just don't want to respond to my rant.
The parade was started by downtown retailers as a way to get more shoppers downtown. It featured Santa Claus first, way before it was called the Parade of lights. Does that answer your question?
We had Jewish retailers downtown back then, why didn't they have this guy instead?
(http://s.costumzee.com/users/Lana417-2719-full.gif)
Quote from: Gaspar on December 01, 2010, 03:29:58 PM
Funny thing. . .
I was at my daughter's Kindergarten a few days ago (Jenks) and I noticed that all of the classrooms have event calendars lining the top of the room (laminated strips with the days running across them, and images corresponding to events and holidays). Hanukkah is depicted with the Torah. Kwanzaa is highlighted by an African American family lighting candles. Ramadan, Ashra, Budi, and Diwali are all highlighted with images.
Edit: St. Patrick's day was the only remotely Christian thing on the calendar, and it was signified by a leprechaun.
December 25 was just another number on the calendar. No Christmas or Easter on any of the Calendars. Don't really care, but it was a bit strange to me. These were in all of the classrooms. They were printed by some public school supply company, so I assume they are standard issue.
You are free to practice any religion you want openly so long as it's not Christianity. It's the quiet move to slowly push Christianity out as an out-moded religion.
What's that noise? Oh Hell there's the black helicopters flying over my house again.
FWIW, Given Sen. Inhofe's navigation skills, he might just wind up at the parade. There's a better chance than not he might mistake the lights of the parade for runway 19R at Riverside and wind up landing in the parade. ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on December 01, 2010, 09:28:26 PM
You are free to practice any religion you want openly so long as it's not Christianity. It's the quiet move to slowly push Christianity out as an out-moded religion.
What's that noise? Oh Hell there's the black helicopters flying over my house again.
FWIW, Given Sen. Inhofe's navigation skills, he might just wind up at the parade. There's a better chance than not he might mistake the lights of the parade for runway 19R at Riverside and wind up landing in the parade. ;D
He'll hit it on the button as long as yellows 'X's are painted on Boston!
Quote from: guido911 on December 01, 2010, 10:24:17 AM
Was this parade previously called the "Christmas Parade of Lights"?
The Tulsa World had a follow-up story tonight that said the parade was named "PSO Parade of Lights" for the last two decades. So the answer to your question is no.
All those other times that Senator Inhofe rode his horse it was in a parade it did not include the word "Christmas". It sounds to me like the Senator either is ignoring the truth or ignorant of the truth.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 01, 2010, 11:12:04 PM
The Tulsa World had a follow-up story tonight that said the parade was named "PSO Parade of Lights" for the last two decades. So the answer to your question is no.
All those other times that Senator Inhofe rode his horse it was in a parade it did not include the word "Christmas". It sounds to me like the Senator either is ignoring the truth or ignorant of the truth.
He's a Senator, he's creates his own reality and only obeys the laws that suit him. He really pissed me off over his cavalier attitude in violating several FAR's in his airplane that would have landed Hoss or myself in Leavenworth had we exhibited such blatant incompetence behind the stick. His stance on earmarks has further eroded my esteem for him. I'm assuming at his age, he's in his last term. If he tries to run again, I hope there's a good primary opponent.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 01, 2010, 11:22:13 PM
He's a Senator, he's creates his own reality and only obeys the laws that suit him. He really pissed me off over his cavalier attitude in violating several FAR's in his airplane that would have landed Hoss or myself in Leavenworth had we exhibited such blatant incompetence behind the stick. His stance on earmarks has further eroded my esteem for him. I'm assuming at his age, he's in his last term. If he tries to run again, I hope there's a good primary opponent.
And that's what REALLY pisses me off. If you or I had done that, our PPL would have been revoked at the very least. He exhibited poor judgement operating an airplane in a condition in which he could have easily killed someone, yet remains very flippant about that fact.
Quote from: Hoss on December 01, 2010, 11:40:02 PM
And that's what REALLY pisses me off. If you or I had done that, our PPL would have been revoked at the very least. He exhibited poor judgement operating an airplane in a condition in which he could have easily killed someone, yet remains very flippant about that fact.
It's amazing someone like Bob Hoover spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars trying to get his license re-instated, yet the FAA allows someone like Inhofe to continue flying. I appreciate what a great advocate he's been to GA, but that doesn't exclude him from the same rules every one else is held to.
Fox 23 did the phone in poll last night.
The question was. Should the Parade Downtown be changed to The Holiday Parade ?
96 % said no. 4 % said yes.
Good thing they didnt politicaly vote on it.
Rick Westcott to vote against special event application
By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
Published: 12/2/2010
Council Chairman Rick Westcott said Thursday he will vote against the special event application for Tulsa's annual holiday parade at tonight's 6 p.m. meeting unless "Christmas" is restored to its official name. Controversy erupted this week over the name change, which actually occurred two years ago, when U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe said he would not participate the parade until its name is returned to the Christmas Parade of Lights, rather than the Holiday Parade of Lights.
Westcott told the Tulsa World he had heard from numerous upset constituents on the issue and that voting against the special event application is his way of representing their frustrations. "All of the people who have contacted me are offended by the removal of Christmas from the name, and all of them want it brought back," he said. The application will be voted on by the full council. The Dec. 11 event can't take place without it.
Westcott said he normally wouldn't think councilors should try to dictate to organizers what a particular event should be called. But he said the annual parade is different. "This is something that is central to the beliefs of much of the community," he said. "Because of that, I want to try to have some influence on the situation." In a response to a letter to the editor that appeared in the Tulsa World a year ago, Larry Fox, the parade's board chairman, explained that the word "Christmas'' was deleted from the official name to reflect more accurately its actual theme and an inclusiveness that has always been a part of the parade.
Meanwhile, the council is also scheduled to take action tonight on a vote of no-confidence on City Attorney David Pauling, who just started work Wednesday, and on overturning the mayor's veto on a proposed charter amendment to make the city attorney an elected position.But Westcott said those items might be moved to a special meeting Tuesday because not all councilors are expected to be in attendance at tonight's meeting.
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101202_11_0_Counci261960&rss_lnk=11
I thought it was the "PSO Parade of Lights," as the TW article posted earlier reported. :P
Quote from: nathanm on December 02, 2010, 09:36:53 AM
I thought it was the "PSO Parade of Lights," as the TW article posted earlier reported. :P
No no no, everything was named after Jesus until Satan took over.
I'm having Jesus cream in my Christ coffee right now.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 02, 2010, 09:31:15 AM
Rick Westcott to vote against special event application
By BRIAN BARBER World Staff Writer
Published: 12/2/2010
Council Chairman Rick Westcott said Thursday he will vote against the special event application for Tulsa's annual holiday parade at tonight's 6 p.m. meeting unless "Christmas" is restored to its official name. Controversy erupted this week over the name change, which actually occurred two years ago, when U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe said he would not participate the parade until its name is returned to the Christmas Parade of Lights, rather than the Holiday Parade of Lights.
Westcott told the Tulsa World he had heard from numerous upset constituents on the issue and that voting against the special event application is his way of representing their frustrations. "All of the people who have contacted me are offended by the removal of Christmas from the name, and all of them want it brought back," he said. The application will be voted on by the full council. The Dec. 11 event can't take place without it.
Westcott said he normally wouldn't think councilors should try to dictate to organizers what a particular event should be called. But he said the annual parade is different. "This is something that is central to the beliefs of much of the community," he said. "Because of that, I want to try to have some influence on the situation." In a response to a letter to the editor that appeared in the Tulsa World a year ago, Larry Fox, the parade's board chairman, explained that the word "Christmas'' was deleted from the official name to reflect more accurately its actual theme and an inclusiveness that has always been a part of the parade.
Meanwhile, the council is also scheduled to take action tonight on a vote of no-confidence on City Attorney David Pauling, who just started work Wednesday, and on overturning the mayor's veto on a proposed charter amendment to make the city attorney an elected position.But Westcott said those items might be moved to a special meeting Tuesday because not all councilors are expected to be in attendance at tonight's meeting.
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101202_11_0_Counci261960&rss_lnk=11
Well isn't that special.....
Quote from: swake on December 02, 2010, 09:52:01 AM
Well isn't that special.....
(http://redstick.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/churchlady.jpg)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 02, 2010, 09:31:15 AM
Council Chairman Rick Westcott said Thursday he will vote against the special event application for Tulsa's annual holiday parade at tonight's 6 p.m. meeting unless "Christmas" is restored to its official name. Controversy erupted this week over the name change, which actually occurred two years ago
The Council's dysfunctionality just got a little clearer.
And to add a little bit of reality to the circus, two local organizations with an investment in Tulsa, McNellies Group and Mimosa Tree Capital Partners, just ponied up $10K each to keep the parade going after it was abandoned by PSO and no one else came forward. A couple of pandering culture warriors have decided that it's even more fun to fight the wars using other people's money than their own or the taxpayers'.
Can someone please explain to me the incentive for anyone whether it is George Kaiser, Elliot Nelson, or any of the others who have given money to try to make this a town a better place? Someone always takes a dump on it. I can accept it when it losers do that. But Inhofe and Westcott? Well, maybe I've answered part of my own question.
A city councilor publically wanting to deny a use permit because the event wasn't Christian enough is just begging to get the city sued.
A "Parade of Lights" sounds more like a Hanukkah parade than a Christmas parade anyway.
Quote from: swake on December 02, 2010, 01:07:09 PM
A city councilor publically wanting to deny a use permit because the event wasn't Christian enough is just begging to get the city sued.
A "Parade of Lights" sounds more like a Hanukkah parade than a Christmas parade anyway.
Westcott isn't exactly on my
Christmas holiday card list.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 02, 2010, 01:10:42 PM
Westcott isn't exactly on my Christmas holiday card list.
Well played!
Who gives a bleep? No one cared when it "changed" two years ago :/ People need to get a life and worry about real problems.
Quote from: godboko71 on December 02, 2010, 01:52:44 PM
Who gives a bleep? No one cared when it "changed" two years ago :/ People need to get a life and worry about real problems.
Okay. What are they? And by all means let's talk about them in this thread, you know, where you are not forced to post or even read.
Okay RM, since when have you been a high school football referee? :D
Quote from: guido911 on December 02, 2010, 01:57:26 PM
Okay. What are they? And by all means let's talk about them in this thread, you know, where you are not forced to post or even read.
Okay so you actually care what a parade is called? You think our representatives should be using energy (even if its aides and other people) on something as silly as a parade? Did the name change to something offensive? Did the name change the meaning of the parade for the people going?
'As long as the Dec. 11 parade does not violate "reasonable time, place and manner" restrictions, the City Council would have no legal basis to turn down its special event application, said Joey Senat of Oklahoma State University and Freedom of Information Oklahoma.'
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101202_11_0_Counci261960
Do we have to wait till a judge affirms that? I feel a censure coming on...
Quote from: godboko71 on December 02, 2010, 02:54:54 PM
Okay so you actually care what a parade is called? You think our representatives should be using energy (even if its aides and other people) on something as silly as a parade? Did the name change to something offensive? Did the name change the meaning of the parade for the people going?
Did not affect me one bit. Still, don't you think we can at least have a discussion on the matter in here?
Quote from: patric on December 02, 2010, 03:36:29 PM
'As long as the Dec. 11 parade does not violate "reasonable time, place and manner" restrictions, the City Council would have no legal basis to turn down its special event application, said Joey Senat of Oklahoma State University and Freedom of Information Oklahoma.'
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101202_11_0_Counci261960
Do we have to wait till a judge affirms that? I feel a censure coming on...
No more basis to turn it down than the gay pride parade or MLK day parade.
I understand the sentiment over the tradition of the parade, but Westcott is over-reaching here for an even the city is not even a sponsor of. Certainly it runs through city streets but FAIK, the entire event is underwritten by private funds.
On KRMG a bit ago they reported he'd recieved "a half-dozen calls and a couple dozen emails from his consituents" Boy that's some real outrage, 30 people in district 2 are pissed off.
Quote from: guido911 on December 02, 2010, 03:42:16 PM
Did not affect me one bit. Still, don't you think we can at least have a discussion on the matter in here?
Sure, we can talk about it here. I would usually prefer the more traditional term Christmas in most situations like a parade like this. But really I didn't care one way or the other myself before now. Now I care a lot.
Inhofe was an donkey with his making this into an issue but if he wants to skip the parade because of the name of the parade, as a citizen he certainly has that right. But a sitting city councilor is now trying to force a privately funded event to be more Christian by granting (or not granting) city permits? Are you kidding me? Talk about idiotic and chilling government intrusion.
Quote from: swake on December 02, 2010, 04:05:21 PM
Inhofe was an donkey with his making this into an issue but if he wants to skip the parade because of the name of the parade, as a citizen he certainly has that right. But a sitting city councilor is now trying to force a privately funded event to be more Christian by granting (or not granting) city permits? Are you kidding me? Talk about idiotic and chilling government intrusion.
You are not saying that government acknowledgment and recognition of Christmas is somehow unconstitutional?
Quote from: guido911 on December 02, 2010, 05:11:30 PM
You are not saying that government acknowledgment and recognition of Christmas is somehow unconstitutional?
I think he's saying that it's intrusive; hence his use of the word 'intrusion'...I agree. It is intrusive. Unless the City is footing the bill for this, who cares what it's called. Jeez, this is such a non-issue. It's just Inhofe appeasing the base of the Evangelicals and being an attention-whore to boot.
Okay. Who farted?
Quote from: guido911 on December 02, 2010, 05:37:19 PM
Okay. Who farted?
Every time you speak, Tony...funny, you won't respond to me directly like a child. You're a gas. Oops, there I go again with the flatulence.
Quote from: patric on December 02, 2010, 03:36:29 PM
'As long as the Dec. 11 parade does not violate "reasonable time, place and manner" restrictions, the City Council would have no legal basis to turn down its special event application, said Joey Senat of Oklahoma State University and Freedom of Information Oklahoma.'
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101202_11_0_Counci261960
Do we have to wait till a judge affirms that? I feel a censure coming on...
There is far more to this from a legal point of view than what you have posted. Since this thread began, I have looked at this entire issue from my "common sense" point of view. As this issue has heated up, and folks are throwing around legal terms of art and words that suggest a councilor may be acting in an unconstitutional manner, I have done a little research. The federal cases that I have looked at (and no, I did not look at all of them), indicated that Christmas is more than a religious holiday. There are secular elements of the holiday (Santa, Christmas trees), there is federal recognition of the holiday (national holiday, time off for federal workers, seasonal postage stamps), and there are cultural/traditional elements that Americans as a society follow. Government gets into trouble when it goes from acknowledging Christmas to "observing" it. Indeed, if the government's "primary purpose" is in a non-secular, celebration so-to-speak, mode, then it becomes problematic.
I really do not know how that very general explanation applies to the councilor since all I know is he is voting "no" on granting a permit because the word "Christmas" has been removed from the parade's title. Is he allowed to vote "no"? I guess so. I guess the injury the parade backers will purportedly suffer is if enough councilors vote no.
Quote from: nathanm on December 02, 2010, 09:36:53 AM
I thought it was the "PSO Parade of Lights,"
To be really inclusive...the new name should be "Parade of Lights and Darks".
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 02, 2010, 08:06:21 PM
To be really inclusive...the new name should be "Parade of Lights and Darks".
What, no response to my referee joke earlier? I'm heartbroken. :D
Quote from: godboko71 on December 02, 2010, 01:52:44 PM
Who gives a bleep? No one cared when it "changed" two years ago :/ People need to get a life and worry about real problems.
Technically 2008 was still the "Christmas Parade" according to materials. The only parade in the last few decades to not say Christmas was 2009 and the people in charge did it purely out of paranoia, IMHO. The problem in this case is that no-one, even Elliot Nelson, really has a compelling reason why an event put on by a private organization that has no reason to worry about lawsuits, changed it. There was no big push from anyone to make them change.
They even went so far as to photoshop the poster artist's work:
P.S. My guess is that part of the reason PSO backed out is that last year's festival was incredibly hard to pull off with the loss of DTU and an organization who had no steering committee and little-to-no board members with any idea how to run things. There was a lot of burning the late night electricity between board members and PSO to get the thing off the ground last year.
I was at Cracker Barrel tonight, and noticed that they too have begun a war against Christmas (and even partnered with those damn Yankees):
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs600.snc4/58011_558413003965_26401559_32218728_7892040_n.jpg)
I'm calling KRMG and KFAQ right now to organize a statewide protest of their apple butter and biscuits until they put the word 'Christ' back on that candle.
Quote from: dsjeffries on December 02, 2010, 09:35:06 PM
I was at Cracker Barrel tonight, and noticed that they too have begun a war against Christmas (and even partnered with those damn Yankees):
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs600.snc4/58011_558413003965_26401559_32218728_7892040_n.jpg)
I'm calling KRMG and KFAQ right now to organize a statewide protest of their apple butter and biscuits until they put the word 'Christ' back on that candle.
That;s not unexpected. Everyone knows Yankees are godless heathens.
How about the Republican National Committee's ornament:
(http://www.gopstore.com/rnc/images/items/LTD104.jpg)
Has Jim Inhofe boycotted his political party?
I was thinking about this last night when a commercial came on about a Winter Festival.
I thought, hey wait just a minute. I like Spring, I enjoy Summer. So why dont we just be all inclusive and change that to 'Season Festival'
There. All Seasons included and no hurt Season feelings.
Just a example of how ignorent over thinking something can become. As far as I'm concerned. This is just how higher educated individuals show their dominance and take away all the innocence of a......wait for it. 'Holiday Event"
I do not remember my parents or anyone of their generation protesting the use of the word Christmas. It was what it was.
So just keep on confusing the next generation and the generations that follow how nothing is innocent and fun anymore without confrontation and questions about it's origins.
So with that. I wish you all a very Merry Christmas.
Quote from: DolfanBob on December 03, 2010, 09:56:04 AM
I wish you all a very Merry Christmas.
Whoa whoa whoa, careful there.
We could call it "the holiday formerly known as Christmas" and someone could come up with an enigmatic symbol like the Artist Formerly Known As Pince did.
Quote from: DolfanBob on December 03, 2010, 09:56:04 AM
I do not remember my parents or anyone of their generation protesting the use of the word Christmas. It was what it was.
Nobody is protesting "Christmas"... They're protesting and boycotting "Holiday"
Quote from: Conan71 on December 03, 2010, 11:40:52 AM
We could call it "the holiday formerly known as Christmas" and someone could come up with an enigmatic symbol like the Artist Formerly Known As Pince did.
I think that enigmatic symbol already exits... take your pick:
- Santa Claus
- Christmas tree (formerly known as a pagan tree)
"Conan had best joke on this last night.
The new name of the parade, just for Inhofe: Christ It's Cold Out Today Parade!"
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/186291/thumbs/s-INHOFE-large.jpg)
He's much smarter than we though, because he's blowing off Tulsa to be where there are palm trees...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/02/jim-inhofe-is-the-latest-_n_791157.html
One thing comes out of this for me. The Tulsa World is one piss poor newspaper whose only skill seems to be in misquoting, misunderstanding and exploiting anyone or anything to get attention and to serve their toady masters. (just threw in that last part cause I love the phraseology...toady masters aka Jim I.)
Au contraire.............. we need more horse poop. It creates jobs. Some one has to scoop it up. If unemployment checks creates $2 for every $1 spent. According to Miss Nancy and Slobbering Barney then a horse poop scooper has to create the same amount of economic activity from the fruits of their labor.
John Stewart weighs in on Gretchen Carlson weighing in on Jim Inhofe weighing in on Holiday v Christmas...
http://tv.gawker.com/5707787/jon-stewart-mocks-fox-news-gretchen-carlson-for-her-war-on-christmas-outrage (http://tv.gawker.com/5707787/jon-stewart-mocks-fox-news-gretchen-carlson-for-her-war-on-christmas-outrage)
Tulsa in the spotlight again...never for grand accomplishments.
Quote from: Townsend on December 07, 2010, 10:27:15 AM
John Stewart weighs in on Gretchen Carlson weighing in on Jim Inhofe weighing in on Holiday v Christmas...
http://tv.gawker.com/5707787/jon-stewart-mocks-fox-news-gretchen-carlson-for-her-war-on-christmas-outrage (http://tv.gawker.com/5707787/jon-stewart-mocks-fox-news-gretchen-carlson-for-her-war-on-christmas-outrage)
Tulsa in the spotlight again...never for grand accomplishments.
But yet again Jon nails it.
"The Gretch who saved the War on Christmas"....that's funny.
"Christmas survived the Roman Empire.
I think it can handle the renaming of the Tulsa Parade"
-Jon Stewart.
Councilors approve Tulsa's Holiday Parade of Lights permit
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101207_11_0_Tulsas654605&rss_lnk=439 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101207_11_0_Tulsas654605&rss_lnk=439)
For the record:
Councilors Bill Christiansen, G.T. Bynum, Chris Trail, Maria Barnes and Jack Henderson voted in favor of the permit,
while Councilors Rick Westcott, Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner were against it.
Councilor John Eagleton was absent.
Quote from: patric on December 07, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
For the record:
Councilors Bill Christiansen, G.T. Bynum, Chris Trail, Maria Barnes and Jack Henderson voted in favor of the permit,
while Councilors Rick Westcott, Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner were against it.
Councilor John Eagleton was absent.
And David Arnett is agi'n it...in case you give a rat love.
Quote from: Townsend on December 07, 2010, 11:59:52 AM
And David Arnett is agi'n it...in case you give a rat love.
I read that. He's a real loon.
I wasn't concerned until I saw that the Alpacas are boycotting.
WHAT WILL WE DO?!?!?
It must mean the end of civilization as we know it! Oh, wait...Inhofe won't be showing up! YES, that is exactly what it means - the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it, and its replacement by enlightenment, education, good will toward men and possibly some extra participation by previously estranged members of the community!
But wait...I guess that can't happen, Inhofe is still in office!
I for one will miss the alpacas. Or not....
Has anyone checked with the llamas? Most people wouldn't know the difference. I hear they are a little more religiously ambiguous as well.
Is Bill O and The Gretch going to show up to protest the parade? I think they should after all the protesting they did on tv this week.
Quote from: joiei on December 07, 2010, 02:26:06 PM
Is Bill O and The Gretch going to show up to protest the parade? I think they should after all the protesting they did on tv this week.
It's all for show. They don't really believe the crap they spew. The spew is for the unkempt masses.
Arnett got up and said he lives and works downtown. The parade inconveniences him and he doesn't mind being inconvenienced if he agrees with the name of the parade.
What a selfish putz.
Thousands of kids look forward to the parade each year and Arnett is only concerned about how it inconveniences him.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 07, 2010, 02:35:25 PM
Arnett got up and said he lives and works downtown. The parade inconveniences him and he doesn't mind being inconvenienced if he agrees with the name of the parade.
What a selfish putz.
Thousands of kids look forward to the parade each year and Arnett is only concerned about how it inconveniences him.
You don't think he's narcissistic or anything do you?
Quote from: Conan71 on December 07, 2010, 03:48:19 PM
You don't think he's narcissistic or anything do you?
How does someone like this get such an inflated view of their own importance?
Quote from: patric on December 07, 2010, 11:55:35 AM
For the record:
Councilors Bill Christiansen, G.T. Bynum, Chris Trail, Maria Barnes and Jack Henderson voted in favor of the permit,
while Councilors Rick Westcott, Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner were against it.
Councilor John Eagleton was absent.
Which is pretty funny since last year, the permit for the "PSO Parade of Lights" was approved unanimously. Also the "Jingle Bell Run" and the "Salvation Army Santa's Motorcycle Toy Meet."
The first day of winter is December 21st yet "Winterfest" has been going on for weeks.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 07, 2010, 02:35:25 PM
Arnett got up and said he lives and works downtown. The parade inconveniences him and he doesn't mind being inconvenienced if he agrees with the name of the parade.
What a selfish putz.
Thousands of kids look forward to the parade each year and Arnett is only concerned about how it inconveniences him.
I thought he legally changed his name to "David ILiveAndWorkDowntown Arnett"
That's how he introduces himself at meetings, dinners, and to random passers by.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 07, 2010, 04:21:15 PM
The first day of winter is December 21st yet "Winterfest" has been going on for weeks.
Ahh, Ahh, Aww. "Seasonfest" Let's be PC about this.
Quote from: DolfanBob on December 07, 2010, 04:44:59 PM
Ahh, Ahh, Aww. "Seasonfest" Let's be PC about this.
Yes, because Holiday is a contraction of the words Holy and Day. Holy from the Hebrew quodesh (ho-de) and Greek Hagios meaning "separate." A term that is obviously devoid of the acceptance of diversity.
We don't want a day devoted to recognizing the absence of diversity do we?
That would be offensive.
Uh oh! What about the word day? Don't even want to open that can of worms. ;)
http://etori.tripod.com/holiday-myths.html (http://etori.tripod.com/holiday-myths.html)
Time of Year Winter Solstice The birth of the sun.
Pagan Traditions The birth of Mithra on December 25th. Often celebrated with yule fires, processions of light, and tree decorating.
Christian Synthesis Christmas & the Epiphany
It'll change again as time goes by.
Quote from: Townsend on December 07, 2010, 05:05:56 PM
http://etori.tripod.com/holiday-myths.html (http://etori.tripod.com/holiday-myths.html)
Time of Year Winter Solstice The birth of the sun.
Pagan Traditions The birth of Mithra on December 25th. Often celebrated with yule fires, processions of light, and tree decorating.
Christian Synthesis Christmas & the Epiphany
It'll change again as time goes by.
Yep, just as soon as libruls convince the fundies their religion is out-moded.
So who actually is in charge of this name change, was it Mcnellies Group? Did they not want Christmas in the name? That wouldn't be a very wise move on their part as a business I would think.
McNellies had nothing to do with the name change, the name change happened last year when it was still the PSO parade.
Quote from: joiei on December 08, 2010, 01:23:44 PM
McNellies had nothing to do with the name change, the name change happened last year when it was still the PSO parade.
Ah, I see z has decided to venture over here from the TW comments section where he has been lambasting everyone under the sun for taking the Christmas out of the parade...where was z last year when this happened?
This appears to be privately funded. If you want a parade with the word "Christmas" in the title, put your wallet where your words are.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 08, 2010, 01:47:00 PM
This appears to be privately funded. If you want a parade with the word "Christmas" in the title, put your wallet where your words are.
Ab-so-lutely.
And I've heard (just heard, haven't talked to Eliot directly) that Eliot has been getting some hate email/mail over this. Wow.
Quote from: Hoss on December 08, 2010, 01:48:34 PM
Ab-so-lutely.
And I've heard (just heard, haven't talked to Eliot directly) that Eliot has been getting some hate email/mail over this. Wow.
What? From the people who are compassionate and loving and would never do anything against what Christ stood for?
Oh wait...different Christ. It's always a different Christ.
Quote from: Hoss on December 08, 2010, 01:48:34 PM
Ab-so-lutely.
And I've heard (just heard, haven't talked to Eliot directly) that Eliot has been getting some hate email/mail over this. Wow.
And I bet the tetotaling fundamentalists will now boycott McNellie's, Fasler, et. al.
I imagine this has been a good lesson for Elliott between maintaining a traditional title to an event (I understand that PSO changed this last year but he chose to keep it again this year) and trying to appear inclusive. FAIK, I was never aware that anyone felt excluded from the Christmas parade in the past. Ironically, Elliott's dad, Bobby (Nelson Nissan/Mazada et al) is a big-time Christian, so I'm pretty certain there was nothing nefarious in the name change.
I've not been in my adult life that I can remember. I'd even thought it had been the Holiday Parade of Lights for a long time already. Until Sen. Inhofe ignited the powder keg, I doubt anyone had really noticed. Certainly not Jon Stewart. 8)
Bobby is Elliot's uncle.
I wonder how many of the anti paraders have ever listened to Bing Crosby sing the song Happy Holiday from the movie Holiday Inn? This movie made back in 1942 had this song that contained the lyrics with the words Happy Holidays. So does that mean this whole kerfluffle is the fault of Irving Berlin and Bing Crosby? Just wondering. The lyrics were stolen from worldofchristmas.net.
'The Holiday Season' or 'Happy Holiday' is a sing-along Christmas song, which is popular among kids. The lyrics are simple, imagery is strong and music and tone of the carol are cheerful.
Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
While the merry bells keep ringing
May your every wish come true
Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
May the calendar keep bringing
Happy Holidays to you
It's the holiday season
And Santa Claus is coming back
The Christmas snow is white on the ground
When old Santa gets into town
He'll be coming down the chimney, down
Coming down the chimney, down
It's the holiday season
And Santa Claus has got a toy
For every good girl and good little boy
He's a great big bundle of joy
He'll be coming down the chimney, down
Coming down the chimney, down
He'll have a big fat pack upon his back
And lots of goodies for you and me
So leave a peppermint stick for old St. Nick
Hanging on the Christmas tree
It's the holiday season
With the whoop-de-do and hickory dock
And don't forget to hang up your sock
'Cause just exactly at 12 o'clock
He'll be coming down the chimney
Coming down the chimney
Coming down the chimney, down!
Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
While the merry bells keep bringing
Happy Holidays to you
Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
May the calendar keep bringing
Happy Holidays to you
To you
Happy Holiday
They mention Christmas snow and Christmas trees so the song isn't devoid of the "C" word.
Happy Holidays was always an acceptible alternative greeting and I think most people saw that as interchangeable with Merry Christmas until people started calling Christmas trees, wreaths, parades, etc. ad nauseum Holiday trees, candles, wreaths etc. ad nausem.
Wreaths and candles were called "Christmas wreaths" and "Christmas candles"? Last I checked, the fake trees they sell at Target are still called "Christmas trees" anyway.
Quote from: nathanm on December 09, 2010, 05:26:21 PM
Wreaths and candles were called "Christmas wreaths" and "Christmas candles"? Last I checked, the fake trees they sell at Target are still called "Christmas trees" anyway.
I don't think Target got a stimulus bailout so they are still free to call them Christmas trees.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 09, 2010, 06:06:25 PM
I don't think Target got a stimulus bailout so they are still free to call them Christmas trees.
Nails it!
Quote from: Conan71 on December 08, 2010, 05:45:17 PM
Damned facts... thanks Blake!
Dad is Jim Nelson. James Elliot Nelson I thought I read.
My plans to attend the "Seasonal Low Speed Mixed Traffic/Pedestrian Event" is dashed. It's gonna be 14 degrees. I don't think I can convince my wife and kids to brave the cold to see "The Costumed Celebratory Person" slide by on his "Winter Low-friction Rail Vehicle" pulled by "9 Androgynous Unionized Endangered Vegetarians."
I think I'll smoke some ribs instead!
I've got to go, my youngest is going to be in it...
Quote from: Gaspar on December 10, 2010, 08:14:28 AM
I think I'll smoke some ribs instead!
Good luck. The small smoker I use for peppers and an occasional turkey just barely got warm enough on Thanksgiving for a turkey. After it was thoroughly smokey, we brought it up to temperature in the microwave. Still tasted pretty good.
The cold weather is just our benevolent god's retaliatory strike in our war on Christmas.
Global warming. (That ought to open a can of worms.)
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 10, 2010, 11:01:24 AM
Good luck. The small smoker I use for peppers and an occasional turkey just barely got warm enough on Thanksgiving for a turkey. After it was thoroughly smokey, we brought it up to temperature in the microwave. Still tasted pretty good.
I'm usually a stick burner, but for the back patio I also have this unit. It's insulated, allows for wood to be added through a chute on the side and has electronic temp and time controls. Basically set it and forget it.
For ribs I use the 3,2,1 principal. Smoke 3 hours. Cook an additional 2 hours wrapped in foil with apple juice and butter. Glaze with (beware, shameless plug) 3 Guys Smokin' Award Winning Bold & Spicy Razz BBQ sauce, 2nd place winner of the 2010 Kansas City Royal sauce championship, for 1 hour uncovered.
The Masterbuilt has no problems with cold weather, and if you shut the stack it will maintain temp for hours after it's timer shuts it down. Great for doing big cuts while your're at work!
(http://www.electricsmokerreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bbbb23.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on December 10, 2010, 12:23:37 PM
I'm usually a stick burner, but for the back patio I also have this unit. It's insulated, allows for wood to be added through a chute on the side and has electronic temp and time controls. Basically set it and forget it.
For ribs I use the 3,2,1 principal. Smoke 3 hours. Cook an additional 2 hours wrapped in foil with apple juice and butter. Glaze with (beware, shameless plug) 3 Guys Smokin' Award Winning Bold & Spicy Razz BBQ sauce, 2nd place winner of the 2010 Kansas City Royal sauce championship, for 1 hour uncovered.
The Masterbuilt has no problems with cold weather, and if you shut the stack it will maintain temp for hours after it's timer shuts it down. Great for doing big cuts while your're at work!
(http://www.electricsmokerreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bbbb23.jpg)
That's pretty much how I do it, three hours of the live smoke, then wrap it to keep it from drying out. I use a Brinkman box type I rescued from the dumpster at a friend's apartment complex a few years ago, it had been used sparingly. I've made a couple of modifcations and it's been much better appreciated under my stewardship. It's straight wood, no electricity or propane. I've also got a Cameron's stove top smoker. That seemed sacriligious to me until I figured out you can make fall-off the bone baby backs in two hours.
I thought I was pretty clever making my own chipotle this year with jalapenos from FMC's garden, turns out Red Arrow does it too.
Old reliable:
Oh and since we are so far OT now, I might as well say it:
MARSHALL'S
Quote from: Conan71 on December 10, 2010, 01:57:02 PM
Oh and since we are so far OT now, I might as well say it:
MARSHALL'S
You and the FMC ever coming out to a hockey game? Still have several on the books. And I"m still looking at going to one of the Barons games down there.
It took me a while to find my photos on my broken XP WIN98SE machine that only works in safe mode. Then I had to transfer them via 3-1/2" Floppy to my Win95 laptop that has a FDD. Then transfer to an SD card via the PCMCIA slot so I could read the card via USB to the iMac. Whew!
Anyway, I wanted a small smoker to turn Jalapenos into Chipotles but knew the small firebox would be hard to work. I found a place that provides propane conversions. A small propane burner is put in the firebox. A juice can is used to hold the smoke wood (Pecan in my case) over the burner but not in the direct flames. A juice can full of wood makes about an hour of smoke. Overall pretty easy but the burner is actually a bit large in normal temperature weather to keep the smoking temperature down to 140F so I don't cook the peppers. I had to add a baffle to the outside of the firebox to keep wind gusts from blowing out the burner.
The peppers turn to almost black when smoked for about 8 to 10 hours. Then I put them in the food dehydrator to finish drying them.
I almost forgot, I added a thermometer at Chipotle level.
Nice Red!
About once ever two weeks I smoke cheese on the Masterbuilt. I can smoke as low as 100 degrees, but it takes some engineering. I start it at 275 with the door open until I get a good amount of wood smoke, then shut it down, add the cheese and keep adding small amounts of apple wood, keeping an eye on the temp. I also start with frozen blocks of Wisconsin cheddar.
Makes the best smoked cheese!
Quote from: Gaspar on December 10, 2010, 02:42:49 PM
Makes the best smoked cheese!
Vermont cheddar is better. ;)
Not that I would complain about smoked Wisconsin cheddar...
Quote from: nathanm on December 10, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
Vermont cheddar is better. ;)
Not that I would complain about smoked Wisconsin cheddar...
Mmmmm, and all this on a thread titled horse poop...
Horse poop spread liberally on about 100 acres of land. Plant half to corn, half to wheat. Harvest and feed to cow until grown. Butcher cow, age at 35 degrees for about 2 weeks. Cut off the brisket and ribs, place in smoker using the previous recipe and method of choice.
Eat.
Yay!!!!
Gaspar,
Have you ever used (or know anyone who has used) a Traeger smoker? Any input?
Well, we ended up going. It was very cold. The crowd was sparse. Hot coco and Bailys made things bearable.
There was one performance to note. The Riverfield percussion band was amazing. It was all drums yet they were able to put out a wall of melodic rhythm. Very Neil Pertish.
None of the other performances were worth mention.
So it lived up to it's "Christ, It's Cold Out Parade" name this year, but Inhofe will still claim a "victory" as the crowd was smaller this year.
Christ, what an a-hole. (http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/a**hole.html)
Above attempted to link to http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/a**hole.html
but the url got censored... replace ** with ss
Quote from: BKDotCom on December 13, 2010, 07:47:44 PM
Christ, what an a-hole. (http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/a**hole.html)
I have to differ with you on that one:
(http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/political-pictures-bush-holds-up-a-page-from-the-republican-bible.jpg)
Inhofe at it again. Apparently the Fed has ordered an Oklahoma bank to remove religious items because it allegedly violated the Equal Credit Act or something.
http://inhofe.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=c499a632-934d-4d06-98c7-09167980fd46
Looks like the letter worked.
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/banking-financial-institutions/134313-ihofe-lucas-pressure-fed-on-removal-of-religious-items
Quote from: BKDotCom on December 13, 2010, 07:47:44 PM
http://www.robertsinclair.net/comic/a**hole.html
That link is dead. Apparently whoever it offended moves fast.
Quote from: patric on December 17, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
That link is dead. Apparently whoever it offended moves fast.
Grrr... the forum censored (and breaks) the url ... replace the asterisks.
Well; I am left in the dark again as I cannot find out if the councilors created another department or if they did will it be called the Christmas horse poop department and who gets the $100,000 department head job? As you are aware, to see the televised version of meetings, it requires the working poor to contribute some $75.00 monthly to a cable company in order to view the actions taken by their so called people's council.
Will the new horse poop department be looking for horse poop inspectors as it seems that some are promoting the department to where they already are inspecting, claiming a reduction in it? Oh well this is Tulsa where there are a lot of people looking for a city feather bed job.
The chronicles of the Romans did not record the date of the event of Jesus' birth but it has been assumed that it occurred in the spring as the Sheppard's were in the fields with their sheep and the Romans were going from town to town collecting taxes in the time frame of seven centuries. It is insouciance to dwell on the date as it is his teachings we should capitalize on.
Quote from: shadows on December 18, 2010, 02:15:17 PM
it requires the working poor to contribute some $75.00 monthly to a cable company in order to view the actions taken by their so called people's council.
$15.75 plus tax, last I checked.
Quote from: shadows on December 18, 2010, 02:15:17 PM
As you are aware, to see the televised version of meetings, it requires the working poor to contribute some $75.00 monthly to a cable company in order to view the actions taken by their so called people's council.
Free... http://tgovonline.org/
Sorry shadows. Once again you are incorrect.
I would think you would tire of being both wrong and perceived as crazy.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 19, 2010, 12:02:01 AM
Free... http://tgovonline.org/
Sorry shadows. Once again you are incorrect.
I would think you would tire of being both wrong and perceived as crazy.
Just wonder if the posters are on the same wave length as the working poor when they say the cable cost is under $16.00 a month to watch the council in action. Maybe I should just buy the cable service off these fellows and send them $25.00 a month. They could take care of this cable bill I am looking at. The last time I heard of a cable service under $20.00 was when that enterprising fellow put an antenna on top of the mountain and cabled the TV service down in the valley to the town for $3.00 a month. There is no wonder the TPS is rated so low in it academics with the sources they have to work with.
Quote from: shadows on December 19, 2010, 03:39:17 PM
There is no wonder the TPS is rated so low in it academics with the sources they have to work with.
You have proudly posted that you dropped out of elementary school...
I guess now you are an expert on schools. Really?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 19, 2010, 03:51:27 PM
You have proudly posted that you dropped out of elementary school...
I guess now you are an expert on schools. Really?
Maybe going to school was beneath him.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 19, 2010, 03:51:27 PM
You have proudly posted that you dropped out of elementary school...
I guess now you are an expert on schools. Really?
I have a diploma from the eighth grade and one for the twelfth grade of the class of '39 having eight students. The rest rooms were outhouses about 15 yards to the right and left of the back door. The horse stables was in-between. There was little trouble of students procrastinating in the bathrooms when the tempter outside was in the 20's. The heating system was a coal stove and the water system was a pump on the west side of the building. There was a storm cellar that gave security to the students. We walked a half mile down a dirt road where the school was about a block off our wheat field. The purpose of the school was to educate the students whereas among the students who graduated from the school did become well known attorneys to millionaire builders. Cry me a story of Tulsa's need for school buildings to continue issuing diplomas to graduating students that are unable to meet the qualifications set out by their peers.
Quote from: shadows on December 19, 2010, 05:51:29 PM
I have a diploma from the eighth grade and one for the twelfth grade of the class of '39 having eight students. The rest rooms were outhouses about 15 yards to the right and left of the back door. The horse stables was in-between. There was little trouble of students procrastinating in the bathrooms when the tempter outside was in the 20's. The heating system was a coal stove and the water system was a pump on the west side of the building. There was a storm cellar that gave security to the students. We walked a half mile down a dirt road where the school was about a block off our wheat field. The purpose of the school was to educate the students whereas among the students who graduated from the school did become well known attorneys to millionaire builders. Cry me a story of Tulsa's need for school buildings to continue issuing diplomas to graduating students that are unable to meet the qualifications set out by their peers.
For most people of your generation (just a bit older than my parents), a 12th grade education was pretty good. They mostly all wrote a lot more coherently than you. What happened? WWII war injury? Do we perhaps owe you some compassion we are not aware of?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 19, 2010, 12:02:01 AM
Free... http://tgovonline.org/
Sorry shadows. Once again you are incorrect.
I would think you would tire of being both wrong and perceived as crazy.
Meh, RM. Shadows is harmless.
Quote from: guido911 on December 19, 2010, 08:57:22 PM
Meh, RM. Shadows is harmless.
Oh come on, everyone deserves the courtesy of being a threat to someone. ;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 19, 2010, 09:19:34 PM
Oh come on, everyone deserves the courtesy of being a threat to someone. ;D
I have known shadows for 35 years. I don't want to go into it on this forum, but it is a little personal.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 19, 2010, 09:37:53 PM
I have known shadows for 35 years. I don't want to go into it on this forum, but it is a little personal.
Then I apologize. BTW, does the fact that I do not know many people for 35 years with whom I still have a communication line make you feel old? :D
Quote from: guido911 on December 19, 2010, 09:55:02 PM
Then I apologize. BTW, does the fact that I do not know many people for 35 years with whom I still have a communication line make you feel old? :D
Not me. I feel old regardless of how many people you have not kept in communication with. :)
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 19, 2010, 11:04:12 PM
Not me. I feel old regardless of how many people you have not kept in communication with. :)
That's because you
are old. Sorry, I just thought you should know. :P
Quote from: guido911 on December 19, 2010, 11:05:31 PM
That's because you are old. Sorry, I just thought you should know. :P
Beat you to it, I already know. :)
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 19, 2010, 11:06:45 PM
Beat you to it, I already know. :)
LOL. Have a great night and Merry Christmas from St. Louis MO.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 19, 2010, 06:17:21 PM
For most people of your generation (just a bit older than my parents), a 12th grade education was pretty good. They mostly all wrote a lot more coherently than you. What happened? WWII war injury? Do we perhaps owe you some compassion we are not aware of?
No: you do not owe me anything but to the now generation you owe them the truth instead of all the horse poop they have to walk on in order to make their own lives compatible to the world they will live in. Tell them we are a socialistic republic where each person look to government for a job. In a democratic society fifty one plus one of the registered must vote before a election is declared valid. As Jefferson said democracy is mob rule.
In our system if the people cannot meet the qualifications demanded by the rule, instead of lifting ourselves to coincide with the rule we merely change the rule.
Next time someone tries to pull that "War on Christmas" bull, ask them if it actually involves being shelled:
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/22/north-korea-threatens-war-over-souths-christmas-lights/
So it's back again.
Is Arnett finally moving out of Downtown or was he just not getting enough attention?
From TW:
Group plans alternative parade with 'Christmas' in title
QuoteA group of Tulsans who are unhappy that the word Christmas was dropped from the name of the annual December downtown parade are organizing an alternative.
The Tulsa Christmas Parade is set for 6 p.m. Dec. 10, the exact time and date as the annual downtown holiday parade.
Organizers have applied for a city permit to hold the parade along a 1-mile section of Olympia Avenue south of 71st Street in the new Tulsa Hills shopping center. The shopping center has approved the parade, said David Arnett, one of the organizers, at a news conference Tuesday.
Last year, U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe broke a long tradition of riding his horse in the parade because Christmas was dropped from the name, sparking a controversy that made national news. The name was changed three years ago by organizers who said they wanted to reflect the inclusiveness of the event.
Arnett said the newly incorporated group first contacted sponsors of the downtown parade about adding Christmas to the parade's name. When they were rebuffed, they decided to sponsor a separate parade. Both parades are privately organized without tax money.
Arnett said the parade will be open to all people.
"If we got an application from a mosque to have a float that says 'Peace on Earth,' we'd love to have them in," he said.
Tulsa contractor Josh McFarland said he was supporting the parade so his two young children could experience the same traditional family Christmas parade that he grew up with.
"If this grows, it could be a model for the rest of the country," he said.
Mark Croucher, president of board of the new corporation, whose insurance agency is taking phone calls for the parade, said the office has been inundated with calls in the hours after the parade was announced.
"It's time for Christians to take a stand and to be able to offer a Christmas parade for everyone to come to," he said.
Eddie Huff, an insurance agent and on-air personality for KFAQ radio, said he would love to see a Hannukah float in the parade.
Arnett said the group didn't pick the date to compete with the downtown parade but because it was the best date.
"We wish them success," he said.
Larry Fox, who has been the chairman of the downtown parade, did not immediately return phone calls Tuesday afternoon.
Arnett said the location was chosen because it offers family dining, parking, easy highway access and exposure to "Tulsa's newest and most exciting shopping center."
for sure.....bunch of crap.
Nothing expresses the true Christmas spirit like parading through a shopping center.
Quote from: Teatownclown on November 02, 2011, 10:55:11 AM
for sure.....bunch of crap.
It was reported that the "new" parade is the same date and time as the downtown one.
The only reason to do that would be to hurt attendance of the old one.
Im sure the children will appreciate that.
Quote from: patric on November 02, 2011, 11:17:57 AM
It was reported that the "new" parade is the same date and time as the downtown one.
The only reason to do that would be to hurt attendance of the old one.
Im sure the children will appreciate that.
Christmas spirit shown by inclusive individuals with hearts of gold.
It's a nightmare to park and get in and out of that shopping center as it is. Should be a real fun time with floats and all the other Holi.....err Christmas traffic.
Quote from: DolfanBob on November 02, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
It's a nightmare to park and get in and out of that shopping center as it is. Should be a real fun time with floats and all the other Holi.....err Christmas traffic.
There's something. "Go to the real Holiday Parade in downtown Tulsa. Don't fight the traffic and parking in South Tulsa."
Quote from: DolfanBob on November 02, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
It's a nightmare to park and get in and out of that shopping center as it is. Should be a real fun time with floats and all the other Holi.....err Christmas traffic.
I am convinced that the parking lots were designed to discourage the use of automobiles. Too bad that's the only way to get there.
Quote from: Townsend on November 02, 2011, 01:06:49 PM
"Go to the real Holiday Parade in downtown Tulsa."
I think that's the point they are trying to make, they want a
Christmas Parade. If another group want to help them celebrate Christmas, that's OK too. As long as they are privately funded, I don't really care too much one way or the other.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 02, 2011, 01:11:59 PM
I am convinced that the parking lots were designed to discourage the use of automobiles. Too bad that's the only way to get there.
I've noticed the curb design drives you toward the pedestrians. You can't leave some areas without driving over the cross walks by the shops.
So in other words David Arnett is trying to kill people by putting on this non-inclusive gag show. What a putz.
Quote from: Townsend on November 02, 2011, 01:19:53 PM
You can't leave some areas without driving over the cross walks by the shops.
That's one of the things about the parking that makes me hate to go there. I would much rather stay away from lane next to the front doors of the stores. I prefer to park farther out and walk in without going past the front door of the store in my car.
Quote from: Townsend on November 02, 2011, 01:19:53 PM
I've noticed the curb design drives you toward the pedestrians. You can't leave some areas without driving over the cross walks by the shops.
So in other words David Arnett is trying to kill people by putting on this non-inclusive gag show. What a putz.
+1
let the children have a variety of holiday cheer....
It's ironic to have a Christmas parade in a shopping center....isn't that the main idea? toys and gifts?
Quote from: DolfanBob on November 02, 2011, 12:54:08 PM
It's a nightmare to park and get in and out of that shopping center as it is. Should be a real fun time with floats and all the other Holi.....err Christmas traffic.
I'm dying to know what you are using as a comparison that you consider this shopping center, the only one in town with access roads, multiple lanes, and limited traffic interruption caused by non-lighted intersections.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 02, 2011, 07:15:21 PM
I'm dying to know what you are using as a comparison that you consider this shopping center, the only one in town with access roads, multiple lanes, and limited traffic interruption caused by non-lighted intersections.
It's actually somewhat of a disjointed cluster. I've had a few near misses coming and going from various places in there.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 02, 2011, 07:15:21 PM
I'm dying to know what you are using as a comparison that you consider this shopping center, the only one in town with access roads, multiple lanes, and limited traffic interruption caused by non-lighted intersections.
All I'm saying is. If you like that parking lot design. You must be a bumper car champion.
Quote from: DolfanBob on November 03, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
All I'm saying is. If you like that parking lot design. You must be a bumper car champion.
+1. That blind curve that moves south down Olympia forces me to run the parking lot if I'm at Best Buy south to the road that runs e/w so I can get a controlled turn out. Trying to turn north out of the first entrance that takes you into Best Buy is taking your life into your own hands. Sometimes I'll make a right turn south to 81st and get on 75 there.
I still like it better than 71st Street, but 71st rapidly improved when they switched to sequenced lights.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 02, 2011, 07:15:21 PM
I'm dying to know what you are using as a comparison that you consider this shopping center, the only one in town with access roads, multiple lanes, and limited traffic interruption caused by non-lighted intersections.
Tulsa Hills Traffic and parking:
The exit from parking at the south side of Lowes does not allow a turn to the south but appears from the parking lot to be a major exit. If used as an entrance, you are forced to the store front. Same for the exit at the south side of Target. I have seen drivers try to turn south by going against traffic in the southbound left turn lane and then making a U-turn. Not safe.
The only entrance/exit by Best Buy forces traffic to the store front where pedestrians and drivers who can't make up their mind congregate.
Westbound from the traffic light the mid way entrances to the parking lots north and south only allow passage for a couple of rows of parking before being forced to cross rows (creating collision possibilities) or go to the store fronts.
If this was an attempt to create an urban shopping experience, it has failed. It also is not automobile friendly when that is the only way to get there. I do not want to drive slowly by the store fronts looking in the windows that aren't there deal with dopey pedestrians and drivers waiting to get the first parking spot in the row. Give me the opportunity to enter the parking lot, find a space not too close so my car doors don't get beat up, and walk to the stores I want to shop at. About twice a year I will walk up and down the sidewalk at the store front trying to figure out what to buy my mom for Christmas. There are usually no stores that interest me but by then I am desperate.
I believe you will have a difficult time trying to turn a suburban shopping center into this: http://g.co/maps/29gkp
We have gone to Tulsa Hills a few times for the novelty of it. The last was on Saturday, when we went around it to get to Jones airport to look at the B-17. The place is a mess to try to get around in. Serious shopping - ain't gonna be there! Too many easier places to go.
Sounds like a driver issue.
Quote from: rdj on November 03, 2011, 10:51:44 AM
Sounds like a driver issue.
Regardless, it creates an unsatisfactory shopping experience.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 03, 2011, 10:28:15 AM
We have gone to Tulsa Hills a few times for the novelty of it. The last was on Saturday, when we went around it to get to Jones airport to look at the B-17. The place is a mess to try to get around in. Serious shopping - ain't gonna be there! Too many easier places to go.
Most of us over here still refer to it as Riverside, or if pushed, Jones Riverside. Just to add to the confusion, the airport at Bristow (just down the turnpike a bit) is called Jones Memorial Airport.
Even the turn lanes at the traffic light within Tulsa Hills suck.
Specifically, the East/West lanes. If you want to cross Olympia, it would appear you need to be in the left lane (as it's the lane that's aligned with the other side). WRONG, the left lane is left-turn only. It's the right lane you need to be in (even though it's askew with the other side).
The last time I was at Tulsa Hills and wanting to make a left turn, I was suck behind with someone that was trying to go straight.
Hard to be angry at em. The darn parking-lot/traffic design SUCKS
Issues with one area of Tulsa Hills:
(http://www.bradkent.com/images/tulsa_hills.jpg)
Quote from: BKDotCom on November 03, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
Issues with one area of Tulsa Hills:
(http://www.bradkent.com/images/tulsa_hills.jpg)
Thanks for the heads-up on the "new cement no-cross barrier". I didn't know about that obstacle. I don't think I've been in that Target. Probably won't now, especially since the one at 101st and Memorial is a lot closer and I am more likely to want something house oriented that airplane/hangar oriented.
If you follow the lines, rather than just drive wherever in tarnation you want to it drives you right thru two rows of parking and then to the in between point of the Target/smaller retail. What's wrong with that? If they had poured a curb there to enforce would that have made you feel better?
Quote from: rdj on November 03, 2011, 01:12:28 PM
If you follow the lines, rather than just drive wherever in tarnation you want to it drives you right thru two rows of parking and then to the in between point of the Target/smaller retail. What's wrong with that? If they had poured a curb there to enforce would that have made you feel better?
So.. there's zero point to that entrance/exit.. just stay on the main/secondary drive and enter the lot from the east.
Because funnelling traffic to two rows of parking makes a whole lot of sense.
Unless they meant to stripe/curb the rest of the lot such that that entrance would would accommodate cross traffic.
And yes.. enforcing people not to drive willy nilly would make me feel better. It's not me I'm worried about.. it's everybody else! :)
Quote from: rdj on November 03, 2011, 01:12:28 PM
If you follow the lines, rather than just drive wherever in tarnation you want to it drives you right thru two rows of parking and then to the in between point of the Target/smaller retail. What's wrong with that? If they had poured a curb there to enforce would that have made you feel better?
That whole parking design reminds me of my first trip going east after we moved to Oklahoma from Pennsylvania. I was going back to finish my last year at college. I was following the Interstates south around St Louis, MO to avoid going through St Louis where I-44 is now but was just surface streets then. I saw a sign with an arrow that said "To Illinois". I followed it across the Mississippi River where it unceremoniously dumped me on a 2 lane road (one lane in each direction) somewhere south of East St Louis.
Desert Ridge Marketplace was one of the better ones when I lived in Phoenix. Also, San Tan Village in Gilbert is another for a good walkable layout.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=desert+ridge+marketplace&hl=en&ll=33.676586,-111.973021&spn=0.006964,0.019183&gl=us&view=map&mcsrc=google_reviews&num=10&start=0&cid=685156499396409051&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=desert+ridge+marketplace&hl=en&ll=33.676586,-111.973021&spn=0.006964,0.019183&gl=us&view=map&mcsrc=google_reviews&num=10&start=0&cid=685156499396409051&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6)
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=San+Tan+Village+Parkway+%26+Williams+Field+Road+Gilbert,+AZ&hl=en&ll=33.309424,-111.742458&spn=0.007424,0.019183&sll=33.310159,-111.742973&sspn=0.007424,0.019183&vpsrc=6&hq=San+Tan+Village+Parkway+%26+Williams+Field+Road+Gilbert,+AZ&radius=15000&t=h&z=16 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=San+Tan+Village+Parkway+%26+Williams+Field+Road+Gilbert,+AZ&hl=en&ll=33.309424,-111.742458&spn=0.007424,0.019183&sll=33.310159,-111.742973&sspn=0.007424,0.019183&vpsrc=6&hq=San+Tan+Village+Parkway+%26+Williams+Field+Road+Gilbert,+AZ&radius=15000&t=h&z=16)
All ya'all need to get a clue.
Tulsa Hills is designed to keep traffic moving on 71st and on Olympia. PERIOD. Those are the main feeders and provide easy access INTO the parking lots. For those of you complaining about parking lot design....geesh...don't be in such a god d@mn hurry and plan ahead a little bit. For those of you complaining about "traffic", please move away from the city. Yes it takes a while to turn left from Best Buy, but if you don't like it, move your 300 pound body and your 10,000 pound SUV down to the STOP LIGHT near the Smashburger. THAT'S WHAT IT"S THERE FOR, IT"S CALLED TRAFFIC CONTROL. The lobby of "I wanna drive my car anywhere I want" is what got us into the mess on 71st. Too many store parking lots with direct access to an 8 lane crosstown street.
This is the classic complainers thread, lol. I would bet the majority of folks posting here voted down Vision 2025 and haven't been to a show at the BOK yet. Which is probably saying something considering how progressive TN posters are in general.
Quote from: bacjz00 on November 09, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
All ya'all need to get a clue.
Tulsa Hills is designed to keep traffic moving on 71st and on Olympia. PERIOD. Those are the main feeders and provide easy access INTO the parking lots. For those of you complaining about parking lot design....geesh...don't be in such a god d@mn hurry and plan ahead a little bit. For those of you complaining about "traffic", please move away from the city. Yes it takes a while to turn left from Best Buy, but if you don't like it, move your 300 pound body and your 10,000 pound SUV down to the STOP LIGHT near the Smashburger. THAT'S WHAT IT"S THERE FOR, IT"S CALLED TRAFFIC CONTROL. The lobby of "I wanna drive my car anywhere I want" is what got us into the mess on 71st. Too many store parking lots with direct access to an 8 lane crosstown street.
This is the classic complainers thread, lol. I would bet the majority of folks posting here voted down Vision 2025 and haven't been to a show at the BOK yet. Which is probably saying something considering how progressive TN posters are in general.
the design may have been intended to keep traffic moving, but it was poorly implemented. Nice though, that if you disagree your response is come in start trying to insult those you disagree with and toss out accusations.
Quote from: bacjz00 on November 09, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
All ya'all need to get a clue.
Tulsa Hills is designed to keep traffic moving on 71st and on Olympia. PERIOD. Those are the main feeders and provide easy access INTO the parking lots. For those of you complaining about parking lot design....geesh...don't be in such a god d@mn hurry and plan ahead a little bit. For those of you complaining about "traffic", please move away from the city. Yes it takes a while to turn left from Best Buy, but if you don't like it, move your 300 pound body and your 10,000 pound SUV down to the STOP LIGHT near the Smashburger. THAT'S WHAT IT"S THERE FOR, IT"S CALLED TRAFFIC CONTROL. The lobby of "I wanna drive my car anywhere I want" is what got us into the mess on 71st. Too many store parking lots with direct access to an 8 lane crosstown street.
You are sounding awfully defensive. Are you responsible for that mess?
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I would bet the majority of folks posting here voted down Vision 2025 and haven't been to a show at the BOK yet.
I voted for Vision 2025 but still haven't been to any events at the BOK. I voted for it because I thought it would be good for the metro area, not because I thought I would use it much.
Quote from: bacjz00 on November 09, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
All ya'all need to get a clue.
Tulsa Hills is designed to keep traffic moving on 71st and on Olympia. PERIOD. Those are the main feeders and provide easy access INTO the parking lots. For those of you complaining about parking lot design....geesh...don't be in such a god d@mn hurry and plan ahead a little bit. For those of you complaining about "traffic", please move away from the city. Yes it takes a while to turn left from Best Buy, but if you don't like it, move your 300 pound body and your 10,000 pound SUV down to the STOP LIGHT near the Smashburger. THAT'S WHAT IT"S THERE FOR, IT"S CALLED TRAFFIC CONTROL. The lobby of "I wanna drive my car anywhere I want" is what got us into the mess on 71st. Too many store parking lots with direct access to an 8 lane crosstown street.
This is the classic complainers thread, lol. I would bet the majority of folks posting here voted down Vision 2025 and haven't been to a show at the BOK yet. Which is probably saying something considering how progressive TN posters are in general.
It's more a thread about non-inclusive dumbasses actually.
I think you're making things up in your head. Don't design parking lots so you're forced to drive toward pedestrians. As I'm walking from store to store I don't want your mom coming after me in her Lincoln.
Voted for V2025. Now if you want to continue with insults, go hang with your family.
Quote from: bacjz00 on November 09, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
Which is probably saying something considering how progressive TN posters are in general.
I agreed with most of what you wrote in that post, but this little snippet...??
What???
Where did you ever get that idea????
It looks like Inhofe is passing on both parades, what an old grump.
http://thislandpress.com/roundups/inhofe-declines-parade-invitation/ (http://thislandpress.com/roundups/inhofe-declines-parade-invitation/)
QuoteLast year, U.S. Senator James Inhofe put Tulsa in the national spotlight when he declined to attend the Tulsa Holiday Parade of Lights, a parade that's been a tradition in Tulsa for over 80 years. He wouldn't participate in a parade that didn't have the word "Christmas" in the name.
In the November 15, 2011 issue of This Land, publisher Vincent LoVoi invited Inhofe to rejoin the parade.
"We invite you to come home and be part of the parade we share with all Tulsans," LoVoi wrote. "It's important to our community. We want to address your concerns in ways that are both inclusive and respectful of faith; we want to help Downtown continue to grow; and we want to preserve a wonderful Tulsa tradition."
A competing parade, the Tulsa Christmas Parade, apparently didn't satisfy Inhofe either. Being presented with the choice to join either parade, Inhofe ultimately decided he would not attend either parade.
"It's just it is not a Christmas parade, and so I won't be riding in it for the same reason as last year," he told the local daily paper, Tulsa World, causing varying reactions from its readers, some of whom left comments critical of the Senator.
"Perfect!!! Having failed in marginalizing others, Inhofe has succeeded in marginalizing himself," wrote the user Mindman, whose comment received the most thumbs-up.
"I have the utmost respect for Jim's," offered user dontliveinfear, in the only supportive comment thus far.
In the December 1 issue of This Land, associate editor Natasha Ball will offer a feature-length article detailing the history of the downtown parade, which will include an anecdote about Inhofe's reactions to the parade when he served as Tulsa's mayor.
While the Senator has chosen not to participate in the parade, many local businesses and organizations have stepped forward to sponsor the parade. For the first time in the parade's history, Tulsa's Jewish and Muslim communities will participate in the parade together.
Well, now that Jimmy sez no to both events, there'll be less of a smell....maybe some smell at Tulsey Hills if there's a stiff North wind. :D
There was a design to that Tulsa Hills shopping area???? When did that happen?
As for Inhofe, well good - that will make both events much better!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 26, 2011, 12:09:02 AM
There was a design to that Tulsa Hills shopping area???? When did that happen?
After it was built. :D
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TULSA - City of Tulsa officials announced Wednesday the road closures for the Tulsa Holiday Parade of Lights.
Hosted by Tulsa Charity Christmas Parade Inc., the Tulsa Holiday Parade of lights is Dec. 10 beginning at 6 p.m. Officials anticipate as many as 25,000 attendees at this year's parade.
The parade begins near 4th and Elgin and ends near 1st and Elgin. Additional areas are closed for staging and disbanding.
(http://media2.kjrh.com//photo/2011/11/30/Paraderoute_20111130085707_640_480.JPG)
Is it shorter? Not that it matters maybe that means less gaps between groups.
Quote from: godboko71 on November 30, 2011, 02:50:36 PM
Is it shorter? Not that it matters maybe that means less gaps between groups.
No crowd gaps might be a good thing. Think of a well filled smaller sports stadium vs. the same number in a large stadium. Packed house vs. a lot of empty seats.
I means let gaps in the parade, but your right it should also mean less gaps of people too
Christmas Is Back in the Christmas ParadeThe 2014 American Waste Control Christmas Parade in Downtown.
http://kwgs.com/post/christmas-back-christmas-parade (http://kwgs.com/post/christmas-back-christmas-parade)
QuoteA new name, with Christmas included, and a new sponsor bring a unified downtown yuletide parade for Tulsa this year. For the past several years, dropping the word Christmas from the downtown event caused a split that resulted in two separate parades, one downtown, one at Tulsa Hills. This year there will be only one parade. Paul Ross is with American Waste Control, the new sponsor. He says this year's parade will officially be known as the 2014 American Waste Control Christmas Parade in Downtown.
The parade will also benefit a charity, A Soldier's Wish. It will be held on December 13th.
Quote from: Townsend on June 23, 2014, 04:10:42 PM
Christmas Is Back in the Christmas Parade
The 2014 American Waste Control Christmas Parade in Downtown.
http://kwgs.com/post/christmas-back-christmas-parade (http://kwgs.com/post/christmas-back-christmas-parade)
Wow...that name...
Quote from: Hoss on June 23, 2014, 04:16:52 PM
Wow...that name...
Yes, because we don't want Christmas commercialized.
Now let's get an associate sponsor: "The 2014 American Waste Control Christmas Parade, presented by Hefty"
Will the heathens break off and start their own now?
Geez....we have lost our collective mind....
Well, whatever they call it. I really hope they pick a decent parade route this year. I am of course partial to it going down Boston Ave and then through Blue Dome.
Quote from: TheArtist on June 23, 2014, 09:33:39 PM
Well, whatever they call it. I really hope they pick a decent parade route this year. I am of course partial to it going down Boston Ave and then through Blue Dome.
Lol....got a vested interest thing going there??
I wish you luck with that one!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 23, 2014, 09:38:16 PM
Lol....got a vested interest thing going there??
I wish you luck with that one!!
I don't know what you're talking about? ;)
But seriously, even if I didn't have a shop on Boston Ave, that should still be the street to put the parade, it simply looks far more dramatic and beautiful. Why have it downtown at all if your mostly going by parking lots, empty buildings or parking garages? Not exactly a way to show off downtown or make your parade feel special either.
Also mine isn't the only shop or restaurant open along Boston, or in Blue Dome, that would benefit. Nice for those businesses to look down the street at the crowds blocks away, on streets where there aren't as many businesses, and wishing the crowds were by them instead. I know lot's of people don't like the "commercialization of Christmas" but if you want retail to make it downtown, Christmas is the make or break season. (Have often wondered what the impact of Christmas has been on helping make our Western Culture so strong economically? A lot of retail relies on the purchasing that goes on for that holiday. It can easily be half of retails sales for the entire year, imagine losing that and what the impact would have been over time. Interesting to think about anyway.)
Quote from: TheArtist on June 24, 2014, 06:46:25 AM
I don't know what you're talking about? ;)
But seriously, even if I didn't have a shop on Boston Ave, that should still be the street to put the parade, it simply looks far more dramatic and beautiful. Why have it downtown at all if your mostly going by parking lots, empty buildings or parking garages? Not exactly a way to show off downtown or make your parade feel special either.
Also mine isn't the only shop or restaurant open along Boston, or in Blue Dome, that would benefit. Nice for those businesses to look down the street at the crowds blocks away, on streets where there aren't as many businesses, and wishing the crowds were by them instead. I know lot's of people don't like the "commercialization of Christmas" but if you want retail to make it downtown, Christmas is the make or break season. (Have often wondered what the impact of Christmas has been on helping make our Western Culture so strong economically? A lot of retail relies on the purchasing that goes on for that holiday. It can easily be half of retails sales for the entire year, imagine losing that and what the impact would have been over time. Interesting to think about anyway.)
We always make it a point to come over to Boston when coming into town just for that view... Very nice!! (Detroit would normally be a more natural "traffic flow" event for us, but it just isn't as interesting.)
Retractionhttp://www.newson6.com/story/25857785/tulsa-to-hold-two-christmas-parades-in-december
Christmas in Tulsa is under served
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Mark Croucher says he wishes the new American Waste Control Tulsa Christmas Parade well and is glad they put "Christmas" back in the parade. That parade will be December 13, 2014.
Croucher says his Tulsa Hills parade will be a week earlier on December 6, 2014.