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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: rdj on October 11, 2010, 01:12:37 PM

Title: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: rdj on October 11, 2010, 01:12:37 PM
TDA released an RFP on the 24th of September for 13,340 sq ft at the corner of 1st & Boulder.  It is the strip of land adjacent to the eastern edge of the 100 West parking garage.  The minimum bid is $213,500.

I think this is an intriguing piece of property.  The RFP is for commercial uses only, specifically retail.  I think this would make a great mixed use space.  Retail on the first floor with a floor of office and a couple floors of residential.  It would be great to have direct access to a corresponding floor of the garage, especially for the residential.

Has anyone heard further details on this land?
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Hoss on October 11, 2010, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: rdj on October 11, 2010, 01:12:37 PM
TDA released an RFP on the 24th of September for 13,340 sq ft at the corner of 1st & Boulder.  It is the strip of land adjacent to the eastern edge of the 100 West parking garage.  The minimum bid is $213,500.

I think this is an intriguing piece of property.  The RFP is for commercial uses only, specifically retail.  I think this would make a great mixed use space.  Retail on the first floor with a floor of office and a couple floors of residential.  It would be great to have direct access to a corresponding floor of the garage, especially for the residential.

Has anyone heard further details on this land?


Are you talking about the parking lot that is currently there?
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: RecycleMichael on October 11, 2010, 04:42:59 PM
This is the strip on the east wall of the parking structure. They have been planting lots of trees there the last couple of years.

It seems a tough place to be retail. My employees park in the parking garage and I park in the lot across the street, so I would love to see some retail on that street. It is just kind of hidden from everything else. Maybe if the Boulder bridge were finished and became two way it could have enough traffic to justify the expense.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: TheTed on October 11, 2010, 08:48:49 PM
I know nothing about real estate, but why would anyone be interested in a tiny little strip of land when there are full or half blocks of undeveloped land in just about every direction?

That kind of strip of land would get used in a place where real estate is at a premium. In Tulsa, I don't see anything happening.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: OurTulsa on October 13, 2010, 12:34:47 PM
The strip is deep enough to accommodate reasonable building but I agree there is not enough traffic without the Boulder bridge in place on that last block.  I can't imagine retail making it there.  When downtown's population and popularity grows and specifically the Boulder corridor is established this strip will be more marketable.  Without the bridge that property's in a dead corner of downtown.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: DTowner on October 13, 2010, 02:15:15 PM
I thought I recently read that construction on the Boulder bridge is supposed to start after the first of the year.

A few years ago I attended a presentation by Jim Norton of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited.  In response to a question on downtown parking garages incorporating commercial/retail space at the street level, he said the space between this parking garage and the street was intentionally left open for future commercial development.

However, even with the develpment of the lot across from the BOK arena and the re-opening of Boulder into Brady, this area may not be busy enough to support much retail/commercial.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: carltonplace on October 13, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
in retrospect the retail space should have been left available on Cheyenne instead of Boulder.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: TheTed on October 13, 2010, 02:47:08 PM
Quote from: DTowner on October 13, 2010, 02:15:15 PM
I thought I recently read that construction on the Boulder bridge is supposed to start after the first of the year.

What a massive waste. If our current overpasses and underpasses carried more than 25% of their capacity, I could see the reason.

But come on, building an overpass when we already have four over/underpasses within four blocks, two of which are our massively oversized one ways that haven't seen traffic congestion since the 1950s???

All we need is a grade crossing.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: DTowner on October 13, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
Whether over, under or across, just get Boulder open.  I've long believed Boulder's closure has hurt the development of the Brady District.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Townsend on October 13, 2010, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: DTowner on October 13, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
Whether over, under or across, just get Boulder open.  I've long believed Boulder's closure has hurt the development of the Brady District.

+1
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: carltonplace on October 13, 2010, 04:23:57 PM
Agreed, its been closed for too long.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: inteller on October 14, 2010, 10:16:19 AM
what a dumb RFP.  Greenspace is lacking in that area (unless you count the weeds down by the tracks) and they should just leave it as is.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: dsjeffries on February 04, 2014, 04:57:46 PM
Here's what Westervelt is putting up in this location. Dirt is already turning. At first glance, I was excited to see the number of units and the fact that they'll meet the sidewalk... and then things just went downhill from there. While they meet the sidewalk, ALL of the entrances are on the back side of the property, tucked away in the back alley between these apartments and the parking garage. What's the point in building to the street if you put all the doors in the back?! It may be gated, but I sure wouldn't want to access my apartment only by a back alley abutting a parking garage. Part of the goal of building to the street is to actually engage the street, create foot traffic, etc. (It also makes it super inconvenient for anyone living in a middle unit to actually get to their front--back door) from the street.

This is also a huge missed opportunity to put something--ANYTHING--different on the first level. It's not prime retail space today, but it could be in the near future as downtown fills in between Brady and the CBD. Having offices, retail, restaurants, shoe shines, coffee shops, etc. on the first level would've meant more activity and more eyes on the street.

These apartments are two floors high. The parking garage behind it is 5 or maybe 6 floors high. We don't have to build it to exactly the same height, but a taller building would help mask the ugliness of the garage. This space had potential, and this project had potential, to be great. Putting the doors to the street would be a major step forward. Adding mixed uses on the ground level would be fantastic. As it is now, it shows both a lack of vision and a fundamental disconnect between suburban-style developers and the basics of urban living.

(http://djeffries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/100-boulder-tulsa-elevations.png)

(http://djeffries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/100-boulder-tulsa-floorplan.png)
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: PonderInc on February 04, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
Yes, this is baffling.  I was shocked to realize that the access would be from the back (between the garage and the building...creepy!).  The only explanation I could think of is that the developer imagines people driving everywhere (just like in the burbs!) and then parking their car in the garage, and walking from the garage to their condo.  OK, except that people who actually live and work downtown RARELY DRIVE THEIR CARS!  That's why they moved downtown in the first place.

I definitely agree that this was originally intended to be retail (sorry, folks, but the crappy "green space" was always a space filler, with the plan to incorporate retail facing Boulder).  And it would have worked great to have ground-floor retail with apts above.  However, I won't complain about this being all condos. 

Presumably the developer has worked a deal with Williams, the Chamber, Cimarex or other big companies to promote these as corporate apartments.  Certainly, there are many people who "commute" to Tulsa for their jobs and stay in hotels for extended periods of time.  This would be cheaper for those employers to pay rent or buy condos than pay $100 / night at a hotel for months on end.  That's what I would do if I were the developer.

But then again, I would have included front doors facing the street.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: sgrizzle on February 04, 2014, 07:22:16 PM
Sorry, my expectations flatlined when I heard it was Westervelt, the same person fighting tooth and nail to stop the expansion of form-based codes.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: SXSW on February 04, 2014, 09:29:59 PM
I guess you could enter through your patio door that faces Boulder.  ???

Agree if the front door opened onto Boulder these would actually be pretty cool.   One more floor would be better too, or at least a rooftop patio.  Too bad since this is on a potential streetcar route.

I was in Houston recently and they have entire neighborhoods of these types of "town homes" that neglect the street/sidewalk and face inward.  Like this they are built with a suburban mindset in an urban setting.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: tulsa1603 on February 05, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
Judging by the east elevations, the most windows and the outdoor living space that people would hang out on (patio, balcony, whatever) are facing Boulder, so I'm not quite clear on how these ignore the street.  There also appear to be gates at each patio that would allow access to Boulder.  I don't think they're particularly original, but I don't think all is lost, they actually make quite a bit of sense to me.  The most important thing is that there is "life" facing the street, and per the plans, the living areas and outdoor spaces face the street.  Just because the front door doesn't, that doesn't mean much.  Think of the "front door" as more of a service entrance - close to the garage side for access to the car.  If the laundry room and bathroom went to the Boulder side, with small/no windows, I would be upset.  This actually makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: jacobi on February 05, 2014, 05:44:53 PM
Considering the corporate clientele who will likely own these, I'm sure that no visible public entry is exactly what they are looking for.


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Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: sgrizzle on February 05, 2014, 10:51:08 PM
I don't think you can count the patio door as an entry as your standard run-of-the-mill patio door locks from the inside.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: nathanm on February 08, 2014, 01:41:56 PM
If it's built out to the sidewalk, which it appears to be, and doesn't involve a street-facing big blank wall, it's not hurting anything. It's just not as good as it could be or as good as we should expect. Empty parking lots and block-long blank walls are much worse for the streetscape than patios and balconies.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: DowntownDan on February 10, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
These renderings have them looking alright.  I'd prefer the rowhouse style with the front door to the street but I guess their idea is for the rear patio to have the view of the skyline.  I guess I can understand it.  And I'm not in the market for one of these so I'm guessing they did some research and expect that they can sell these with this configuration.

http://100boulder.com/index.html
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: saintnicster on February 10, 2014, 01:31:40 PM
Quote from: DowntownDan on February 10, 2014, 01:29:39 PM
These renderings have them looking alright.  I'd prefer the rowhouse style with the front door to the street but I guess their idea is for the rear patio to have the view of the skyline.  I guess I can understand it.  And I'm not in the market for one of these so I'm guessing they did some research and expect that they can sell these with this configuration.

http://100boulder.com/index.html

Oof, those prices (http://100boulder.com/pricing.html) @_@  Between 206 and 230k a unit, with 18 units total
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: patric on February 10, 2014, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: tulsa1603 on February 05, 2014, 05:41:49 PM
Judging by the east elevations, the most windows and the outdoor living space that people would hang out on (patio, balcony, whatever) are facing Boulder, so I'm not quite clear on how these ignore the street.  There also appear to be gates at each patio that would allow access to Boulder.  I don't think they're particularly original, but I don't think all is lost, they actually make quite a bit of sense to me.  The most important thing is that there is "life" facing the street, and per the plans, the living areas and outdoor spaces face the street. 

Not for the units that line up with the Acorn streetlights at eye level.  I imagine those will likely have curtains and doors that never open because of the intrusive high-intensity light outside.

Architects like the "splash" an acorn gives to blank walls, but these aren't, they're windows to people's living and sleeping spaces, and Acorns are not only inappropriate but uninspired. 
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2014, 01:55:16 PM
838 to 910 square foot studios.  The financing through mid-first is 15 year fixed or 5 or 7 year ARMs.  Might work for some young professionals who don't want to be bothered with a yard and have few worldly possessions.  Certainly not attractive to families.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Townsend on February 10, 2014, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: patric on February 10, 2014, 01:51:13 PM
Not for the units that line up with the Acorn streetlights at eye level.  I imagine those will likely have curtains and doors that never open because of the intrusive high-intensity light outside.

Architects like the "splash" an acorn gives to blank walls, but these aren't, they're windows to people's living and sleeping spaces, and Acorns are not only inappropriate but uninspired. 

BB gun
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: TheArtist on February 10, 2014, 05:04:00 PM
Wow, I actually caught myself doing a genuine face palm.  These definitely say "Don't walk here."  Not much of an improvement over a parking garage being up to a sidewalk, and definitely a downgrade from the grass and trees that were there before imho. These remind me of "Communist or Project" type developments.   Perhaps I am odd but when I go home I like to walk up to or drive up to something inviting at the end of the day, not shuffle up to something that looks like a "workers living cubicle" out of some dreary dystopian movie like Metropolis.  I love contemporary architecture and all that, but these are slit your wrist depressing.  

Hate to say it, but even the new ones in Greenwood are depressing to walk past as well.  Went by those one evening when it was nice and they were about as inviting to walk past as an alley or back side street.

Both of these places are kind of like something you see in the big cities that was squashed into perhaps a dark awkward, out of main view, available spot and rented out to poor people who then hope to get into someplace better asap.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something that looks just like this in a sic-fi movie in which they were described as "The slums of the future. Here is where the workers and slaves, the most downtrodden and wretched of society live."   And you would react saying "Eeew how horrid those places look. Those poor people who have to live in that day after day."

Gawd these are awful.  :P    
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: jacobi on February 10, 2014, 08:42:21 PM
Those prices are beyond obscene.  I think these will All be owned by Williams, Magellan, etc.


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Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Conan71 on February 10, 2014, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: TheArtist on February 10, 2014, 05:04:00 PM
Wow, I actually caught myself doing a genuine face palm.  These definitely say "Don't walk here."  Not much of an improvement over a parking garage being up to a sidewalk, and definitely a downgrade from the grass and trees that were there before imho. These remind me of "Communist or Project" type developments.   Perhaps I am odd but when I go home I like to walk up to or drive up to something inviting at the end of the day, not shuffle up to something that looks like a "workers living cubicle" out of some dreary dystopian movie like Metropolis.  I love contemporary architecture and all that, but these are slit your wrist depressing.  

Hate to say it, but even the new ones in Greenwood are depressing to walk past as well.  Went by those one evening when it was nice and they were about as inviting to walk past as an alley or back side street.

Both of these places are kind of like something you see in the big cities that was squashed into perhaps a dark awkward, out of main view, available spot and rented out to poor people who then hope to get into someplace better asap.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see something that looks just like this in a sic-fi movie in which they were described as "The slums of the future. Here is where the workers and slaves, the most downtrodden and wretched of society live."   And you would react saying "Eeew how horrid those places look. Those poor people who have to live in that day after day."

Gawd these are awful.  :P    

I agree mostly, Artist.  Problem is, the developer must still believe downtown is a dangerous place to live.

The renderings do show that balconies or patios line up to the street.  I'm not sure if people who live in downtown are ready to have a front door exposed to a heavily traveled road for fear of nightly home invasions by roving bands of homeless folk.   8)
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on February 11, 2014, 09:18:10 AM
Given the amount of growth in downtown living I'm surprised they would stop at 2 floors.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 11, 2014, 10:29:00 AM
Quote from: dsjeffries on February 04, 2014, 04:57:46 PM


(http://djeffries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/100-boulder-tulsa-elevations.png)

(http://djeffries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/100-boulder-tulsa-floorplan.png)

What a marvelous example of disposable architecture.  The most redeeming feature of this development is that it can easily be torn down for future development.

If you could purchase condos at IKEA, I imagine this is what they would look like.  Of course they would have a name like TDDÖANG STED.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: BKDotCom on February 12, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
Well the developer says they're great in today's TW article:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html

They're trying to sell it as if real people will be living here
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 12, 2014, 10:00:18 AM
Quote from: BKDotCom on February 12, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
Well the developer says they're great in today's TW article:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html

They're trying to sell it as if real people will be living here

So, a 900sf studio apartment for $226K.  About $250 a sq foot and no parking.  Let's start to think about what we can turn these into after a few years.  Or perhaps just. . .
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: PonderInc on February 12, 2014, 11:47:35 AM
The mock photo of the condos looks like a detention facility.  I love all the forlorn people standing on their balconies, looking out at the surface parking lots across the street(s).
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 12, 2014, 12:02:42 PM
Quote from: PonderInc on February 12, 2014, 11:47:35 AM
The mock photo of the condos looks like a detention facility.  I love all the forlorn people standing on their balconies, looking out at the surface parking lots across the street(s).

Awesome!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fly4m2G-yZk/TfISZauWUeI/AAAAAAAABXo/6eiRIy6tz9s/s1600/KevinRichter_PostNuclearWasteland.jpg)
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: dsjeffries on February 12, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Quote from: BKDotCom on February 12, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
Well the developer says they're great in today's TW article:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/unit-condo-project-going-up-downtown/article_4b11b730-93ed-11e3-b9bc-0017a43b2370.html

They're trying to sell it as if real people will be living here

Here's a rendering. I think an IKEA apartment would be more appealing than this.

(http://100boulder.com/images/home_ms.jpg)
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: swake on February 12, 2014, 04:50:19 PM
Quote from: dsjeffries on February 12, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Here's a rendering. I think an IKEA apartment would be more appealing than this.

(http://100boulder.com/images/home_ms.jpg)

Wow.

You have to work hard to build something that ugly.

I bet if you have patio furniture on the first floor you are going to find you have "guests" some mornings.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: dsjeffries on February 12, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
Here's a rendering. I think an IKEA apartment would be more appealing than this.

(http://100boulder.com/images/home_ms.jpg)

Looks like a place where you would walk by and adopt someone.

"Pick me!  Pick me!  Pick me!"

If only they could make a rope out of bedsheets and climb down to a waiting vehicle.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Townsend on February 13, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Maybe if this works out they'll have a nice view of a Chris Bumgarner special...like a Target or something.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: swake on February 13, 2014, 09:17:31 AM
Quote from: Townsend on February 13, 2014, 08:02:10 AM
Maybe if this works out they'll have a nice view of a Chris Bumgarner special...like a Target or something.

Well, that would be a shame because today they have a lovely view of a really nice surface parking lot.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
If I lived on the bottom floor, I would not walk around the building to enter my cell, I would just hop the railing.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Conan71 on February 13, 2014, 09:36:39 AM
Quote from: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
If I lived on the bottom floor, I would not walk around the building to enter my cell, I would just hop the railing.

I was thinking they could extend the bars on the railing and make it an overflow center for the DL Moss.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 09:43:14 AM
Quote from: Conan71 on February 13, 2014, 09:36:39 AM
I was thinking they could extend the bars on the railing and make it an overflow center for the DL Moss.

Perhaps a work release or half-way program.
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Red Arrow on February 13, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
Quote from: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 07:49:27 AM
If only they could make a rope out of bedsheets and climb down to a waiting vehicle.

Don't be so cheap.  Get a rope, it's less likely to break.

:D
Title: Re: TDA RFP - 1st & Boulder
Post by: Gaspar on February 13, 2014, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: Red Arrow on February 13, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
Don't be so cheap.  Get a rope, it's less likely to break.

:D

They take your belt and any ropes you have when you "purchase" a unit.  They also screen you for depression.