Posted: 8:14 PM
TULSA - Downtown Tulsa is filled with art deco and gothic reminders of Tulsa's success during the oil boom of the 1920's. But nearly a century later, many of these icons sit vacant
Developer Jim Hawkins tells 2NEWS, "It's really driven by the market. And what we are trying to do is drive them (buyers) into these historic buildings. And bring them back before we tear down our pyramids."
Hawkins believes in the revitalization of Downtown Tulsa. He's in the midst of turning an historic building at 6th and Cincinnati into a project called "119 Downtown". The residences will sold instead of rented.
It's a first for Downtown and Hawkins says people need a reason to try something new. "We don't have many tools. But one of the tools you can use in property tax."
He's asking the City Council to approve a measure that would allow residents of 119 Downtown to not pay property taxes for the first six years. During that time, the city would forgo $72,000 in taxes. But then collect $314,000 every year there after.
Hawkins says it if attracts people to his building, it could do the same for other Downtown developers as well. "This could be really a first step in taking it from a lab test to a field trial of bringing back Downtown Tulsa."
It's an idea that is endorsed the "PLANiTulsa" comprehensive plan. That is why City Councilor Maria Barnes believes it will benefit her district.
She says, "We sometimes need to help the developers, the builders with some things to help our city and our neighborhoods. And this is one of those items for Downtown that I think is really good."
The council will discuss the issue in committee on Tuesday. It could be placed on the council agenda for a vote at a later date.
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/council-to-consider-tax-breaks-to-entice-people-to-move-downtown
Ok, let me get this straight in my head.
They raise taxes on those businesses inside the IDL to help pay for the new ball park which I might add is a beautiful and wonderful addition to downtown.
But, now they are considering giving tax breaks to businesses to move Downtown?
Timing is important.
Now wait a cotton-pickin' minute. I thought Maria was upset that Eric Gomez was too cozy with downtown developers like it was a bad thing.
I thought the County controlled "Property Tax"...
Or are we just talking about the "Ballpark" thing??
Quote from: unreliablesource on August 09, 2010, 10:02:55 PM
Ok, let me get this straight in my head.
They raise taxes on those businesses inside the IDL to help pay for the new ball park which I might add is a beautiful and wonderful addition to downtown.
But, now they are considering giving tax breaks to businesses to move Downtown?
Timing is important.
Don't think it's businesses. The exemption as I heard it on TV would be to forego, for those people moving downtown and actually purchasing a residence, the property tax for six full years. I think it's a brilliant way to entice people downtown who otherwise might not look there. Development needs to pick up though.
A good middle ground would be to continue charging the current taxes to the property owners and condo purchasers, just forgo the increases. That avoids reducing the financially-strapped government's revenue and still gives a very large incentive to condo purchasers.
Why don't we only give tax cuts to the poor and middle class if they move downtown?
If we give tax cuts to businesses owned by rich people, they will just spend it on development and job creation.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 09:01:32 AM
Why don't we only give tax cuts to the poor and middle class if they move downtown?
If we give tax cuts to businesses owned by rich people, they will just spend it on development and job creation.
I think there was a Next Gen episode where they were stuck in a loop like this.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 09:01:32 AM
Why don't we only give tax cuts to the poor and middle class if they move downtown?
If we give tax cuts to businesses owned by rich people, they will just spend waste it on development and job creation.
FIFY.
I'm wondering if this scheme wouldn't encourage a lot of investor-owned units, not occupant-owned. What happens with the high tax rate coming in the sixth year, I'm betting people will have a hard time selling at that point and we could wind up with a glut of un-occupied units nearing foreclosure.
I think you need to charge property tax. If people want to live downtown, they would want to live there regardless of the property tax status, I'd think, especially on higher-end properties.
Quote from: Townsend on August 10, 2010, 09:08:33 AM
I think there was a Next Gen episode where they were stuck in a loop like this.
Oooo snap!
Terrible Idea....
Quote from: Townsend on August 10, 2010, 09:08:33 AM
I think there was a Next Gen episode where they were stuck in a loop like this.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 09:01:32 AM
Why don't we only give tax cuts to the poor and middle class if they move downtown?
If we give tax cuts to businesses owned by rich people, they will just spend it on development and job creation.
I believe you yourself stated that nobody is hiring anybody because they are too scared. So giving them more money does nothing.
Quote from: Trogdor on August 10, 2010, 10:18:46 AM
I believe you yourself stated that nobody is hiring anybody because they are too scared. So giving them more money does nothing.
I wonder what they are scared of?
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 10:23:01 AM
I wonder what they are scared of?
Scary scary taxes, natch!
Just came from downtown an hour ago. Had to drop by a client to pick up a check. Long-time Tulsa company. CFO was watching a webanar on the new healthcare bill when I walked in, and he had that deer in the headlights look.
We got to talking about the financial health of his company. He said they were doing very very well, cash flow was excellent. Asked if they had any plans on increasing user count (they use a software product I sell) and his quote was "we're not increasing anything until we figure out what this lunatic in the White House is going to do."
They just paid for a software upgrade to beat the tax deadline, and have the capital to expand and hire, but they are waiting.
So back to the subject of this thread, I don't think tax manipulation on a local level a pronounced effect until we know what Washington is going to do.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 10, 2010, 03:19:30 PM
Just came from downtown an hour ago. Had to drop by a client to pick up a check. Long-time Tulsa company. CFO was watching a webanar on the new healthcare bill when I walked in, and he had that deer in the headlights look.
We got to talking about the financial health of his company. He said they were doing very very well, cash flow was excellent. Asked if they had any plans on increasing user count (they use a software product I sell) and his quote was "we're not increasing anything until we figure out what this lunatic in the White House is going to do."
They just paid for a software upgrade to beat the tax deadline, and have the capital to expand and hire, but they are waiting.
So back to the subject of this thread, I don't think tax manipulation on a local level a pronounced effect until we know what Washington is going to do.
What specifically is he waiting for "Washington" or the "lunatic in the Whitehouse" to do, or thinking might be done?
As for not hiring, one of the things I have heard over and over is that skyrocketing healthcare costs have been difficult, but in a growing economy (fake though a lot of that growth may have been) often manageable in the past, but now that companies find themselves BOTH in a recession and with healthcare costs that have never stopped rising... they can't hire more and often have to lay off, even if they are holding steady otherwise. In other words, the path that we, and that guys company, has been on was one that would steadily get worse. His costs were going to skyrocket no matter what (unless he did not help his employees with healthcare, but then his employees would be having to pay more for it regardless).
Quote from: TheArtist on August 10, 2010, 04:06:57 PM
What specifically is he waiting for "Washington" or the "lunatic in the Whitehouse" to do, or thinking might be done?
As for not hiring, one of the things I have heard over and over is that skyrocketing healthcare costs have been difficult, but in a growing economy (fake though a lot of that growth may have been) often manageable in the past, but now that companies find themselves BOTH in a recession and with healthcare costs that have never stopped rising... they can't hire more and often have to lay off, even if they are holding steady otherwise. In other words, the path that we, and that guys company, has been on was one that would steadily get worse. His costs were going to skyrocket no matter what (unless he did not help his employees with healthcare, but then his employees would be having to pay more for it regardless).
Don't exactly know. I think the uncertainty itself is the paralyzing factor.
I don't know that there is rational thought to a whole lot of it. Sort of like the psychological influence of recession. Start talking about bad times ahead and people horde cash. If the personal or popular political paradigm is that things like Obamacare are bad, that impending EPA regs are bad, or fear that increased tax burdens will keep a company's clients from spending money then it must be real. Therefore, we must proceed cautiously, not hire new people, not make large captial expenditures and plan on surviving.
It doesn't matter what any of us sitting here talking about economic theory say. The actions and reactions of business owners based on their fears real or percieved is all that matters.
The City Council collectively seemed to like this idea at their committee meeting. I'm not sure exactly how it works but it's a tax abatement for the next six years - either it's the entire property tax or the amount of increase realised after sale. In general, the City gets no direct benefit from property taxes. The money goes to the County, schools, library...not a penny goes directly to the City of Tulsa.
Hopefully, in six years the residents in this building will have helped raise the desirability of downtown to the point that the raise in mortgage caused by the payment of property taxes is well worth it.
In the end, I think, allowing this property and the two others considered yesterday to forgo property taxes for 6 years is nothing considering their contribution to a revitalizing downtown (reusing infrastructure you and I are already paying for). The expected increase in value of the property and it's surroundings (that are not churches) and the associated property taxes paid in six years will make this brief pause on property tax payments worth it.
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Looks like it's all property taxes for 6 years. The other two projects were the new development 'GreenArch' at Greenwood/Archer and the Atlas Life hotel conversion. According to this agreement the commercial spaces are not exempt from ad velorum? http://98.175.228.61:8080/SuperContainer/RawData//EMTRDGBH862010114939/10-595-1.pdf?a=1