Porsche 918 Spyder in a plug-in hybrid version is going into production, promising low emissions and 198 m.p.h. (http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/new-economy/2010/0728/Porsche-918-Spyder-will-come-with-an-electric-plug)
(http://i31.tinypic.com/v46jkp.jpg)
Porsche showed off this hybrid plug-in Porsche 918 Spyder concept car at the Geneva Motor Show in March. On Wednesday, the company said it would start developing the mid-engine two-seater, which is expected to get up to 113 miles per gallon in its economical driving mode.
Quote from: Belle on July 28, 2010, 07:37:22 PM
Porsche 918 Spyder in a plug-in hybrid version is going into production, promising low emissions and 198 m.p.h. (http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/new-economy/2010/0728/Porsche-918-Spyder-will-come-with-an-electric-plug)
(http://i31.tinypic.com/v46jkp.jpg)
Porsche showed off this hybrid plug-in Porsche 918 Spyder concept car at the Geneva Motor Show in March. On Wednesday, the company said it would start developing the mid-engine two-seater, which is expected to get up to 113 miles per gallon in its economical driving mode.
Has now been added to the "If I ever become filthy rich" list
A Porsche is God's way of saying you make too damn much money. I think that came from Richard Pryor.
Quote from: Ed W on July 28, 2010, 08:58:24 PM
A Porsche is God's way of saying you make too damn much money. I think that came from Richard Pryor.
Wonder what he would have said about the Bugatti
That is just wicked bad looking. We own a 1979 Porsche 928 S. I enjoy driving it, but I do have to say this. For a weekend car. It sure costs a lot of money to own.
Quote from: DolfanBob on July 29, 2010, 08:46:04 AM
That is just wicked bad looking. We own a 1979 Porsche 928 S. I enjoy driving it, but I do have to say this. For a weekend car. It sure costs a lot of money to own.
You will drive (no pun intended) yourself nuts if you try to justify it economically. Don't even try. Just say you have the money, that's what you want, and enjoy the car.
Tesla Roadster. ;D
Quote from: nathanm on July 29, 2010, 09:07:30 AM
Tesla Roadster. ;D
Bugatti Veyron.. oh wait, that's all gas, nevermind.
Quote from: custosnox on July 29, 2010, 11:47:43 AM
Bugatti Veyron.. oh wait, that's all gas, nevermind.
Eh, the Veyron goes fast, but that's about all it does. I'd rather get through the corners fast than have to wait until I've got five miles to hit top speed. It would work well farther west. ;D
IMO, hybrids are weak for performance cars. Either go all gas or all electric. Even then, the only reason for electric is the ridiculous torque that can be applied at any speed.
A good hybrid can make a great daily driver, though.
Quote from: nathanm on July 29, 2010, 04:47:45 PM
Eh, the Veyron goes fast, but that's about all it does. I'd rather get through the corners fast than have to wait until I've got five miles to hit top speed. It would work well farther west. ;D
IMO, hybrids are weak for performance cars. Either go all gas or all electric. Even then, the only reason for electric is the ridiculous torque that can be applied at any speed.
A good hybrid can make a great daily driver, though.
To be honest the Veyron is on my "dream car" list for two reasone. One, it's the fasted production car ever, two, it's not widely known as a supercare, so I could really mess with people. The top car on my list is actually the Lamborghini Murcielago. This Porsche is a nice looking car, and has a good top speed. I would be intersted in seeing how it performs otherwise, such as handeling and acceleration. I've always thought the Tesla was a sharp looking car, and would be great in a millionairs collection, not to mention awsome stats for something without an internal compbustion.
Guess I should have mentioned that while I reside in the poorhouse, my mind vacations on loaded blvd.
Quote from: custosnox on July 29, 2010, 06:42:26 PM
To be honest the Veyron is on my "dream car" list for two reasone. One, it's the fasted production car ever, two, it's not widely known as a supercare, so I could really mess with people. The top car on my list is actually the Lamborghini Murcielago. This Porsche is a nice looking car, and has a good top speed. I would be intersted in seeing how it performs otherwise, such as handeling and acceleration. I've always thought the Tesla was a sharp looking car, and would be great in a millionairs collection, not to mention awsome stats for something without an internal compbustion.
Guess I should have mentioned that while I reside in the poorhouse, my mind vacations on loaded blvd.
If I wanted a sleeper, I'd go with one of the AMG Mercedes. Just my humble opinion, though. ;)
If it were more about looking fast, I'd probably want a Countach. They look great, although they aren't all that fast and are supposedly very hard to drive. Or if I had to choose something newer it would be one of the Koenigsigs or a Pagani Zonda. :o
Top Gear actually did a test of the Tesla Roadster some years back. Jeremy hated it because it only took 30 or 40 miles of their typical ridiculously hard driving before the battery was dead. (not literally dead, but they shut off when there's 30 or 40% of the battery pack's total capacity to increase the longevity of the battery pack) I'd like to have one for tooling around town and taking on nearby twistys. I figure you'd probably get a hundred miles of hard driving that wouldn't get you killed or arrested.
More realistically, the Model S also looks like it will be pretty neat. Not as fast, obviously, but more useful and at a much better price. :P
You know, something that I can't afford, but might be able to someday if I scrimp and save enough.. Not quite lottery or "business grows beyond my wildest dreams" territory.
Ok, someone help me out. It took a while to pull this information and it’s a little bizarre.
First of all I couldn’t get any of it from Chevy, and had to rely on what Nissan has published on the Leaf. Most of the reports on the Chevy volt say that they are reluctant to post fuel/electric economy information because the government hasn’t figured out a standard rating system for electric cars. That’s BS. The question is, how much does it cost to charge? Chevy won’t say, but Nissan will.
Here’s what I found. The Leaf requires 8.8KWh per charging cycle. It has a 100mi range, but if you only drive 50 to 60 miles in a day you will still want to plug it in at night for a charge cycle to condition the battery. The onboard computer initiates a conditioning cycle each time you plug it in and the battery is discharged and recharged as needed. This burns an average of 8.8KWh of electricity. For us idiots, it’s basically like leaving a thousand watt light bulb on all night.
The average US house burns about 24 to 30KWh of electricity each day. Add your new Leaf and you increase your electric bill by 29% to 30%.
So if you’re like me, it’s adding about $100 a month to your electric bill. That’s a little less than I pay for gas now in my TrailBlazer, and far more than my wife pays for her little Mazda.
Quote from: custosnox on July 29, 2010, 11:47:43 AM
Bugatti Veyron.. oh wait, that's all gas, nevermind.
One of my favorite segments on Top Gear.
One of my favorite quotes:
"At 250mph the tires will only last 50 minutes, but thats alright, it will use up the fuel tank in 12 minutes."
Quote from: Gaspar on July 30, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
Ok, someone help me out. It took a while to pull this information and it's a little bizarre.
First of all I couldn't get any of it from Chevy, and had to rely on what Nissan has published on the Leaf. Most of the reports on the Chevy volt say that they are reluctant to post fuel/electric economy information because the government hasn't figured out a standard rating system for electric cars. That's BS. The question is, how much does it cost to charge? Chevy won't say, but Nissan will.
Here's what I found. The Leaf requires 8.8KWh per charging cycle. It has a 100mi range, but if you only drive 50 to 60 miles in a day you will still want to plug it in at night for a charge cycle to condition the battery. The onboard computer initiates a conditioning cycle each time you plug it in and the battery is discharged and recharged as needed. This burns an average of 8.8KWh of electricity. For us idiots, it's basically like leaving a thousand watt light bulb on all night.
The average US house burns about 24 to 30KWh of electricity each day. Add your new Leaf and you increase your electric bill by 29% to 30%.
So if you're like me, it's adding about $100 a month to your electric bill. That's a little less than I pay for gas now in my TrailBlazer, and far more than my wife pays for her little Mazda.
I have often wondered what the cost would be for recharging. It'd interesting that you mention the Chevy Volt. I was at the Barrett Jackson auction this year and they had one there. Not bad looking but the minute you walked up to look at it closer, it was just a mock up, not even real and actually a cheesy one at that.
Quote from: Gaspar on July 30, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
... Here's what I found. The Leaf requires 8.8KWh per charging cycle. It has a 100mi range, but if you only drive 50 to 60 miles in a day you will still want to plug it in at night for a charge cycle to condition the battery. The onboard computer initiates a conditioning cycle each time you plug it in and the battery is discharged and recharged as needed. This burns an average of 8.8KWh of electricity. For us idiots, it's basically like leaving a thousand watt light bulb on all night.
The average US house burns about 24 to 30KWh of electricity each day. Add your new Leaf and you increase your electric bill by 29% to 30%.
It seems you are assuming the battery will be completely discharged and recharged every time the car is plugged in. I don't think that's the case. I read some about the Volt, and its' batteries don't have "memory", from what I understand. So they don't need to be discharged before recharging.
I'm thinking about a Volt... but they need some colors other than gray. They're not for people with 20+ mile commutes, though. I live 2 miles from work, so I think I might make it a whole week on 1 charge. I'm anxious to see how close you can get to that 40 mile range with AC on.
Quote from: Gaspar on July 30, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
The Leaf requires 8.8KWh per charging cycle. It has a 100mi range, but if you only drive 50 to 60 miles in a day you will still want to plug it in at night for a charge cycle to condition the battery. The onboard computer initiates a conditioning cycle each time you plug it in and the battery is discharged and recharged as needed. This burns an average of 8.8KWh of electricity. For us idiots, it's basically like leaving a thousand watt light bulb on all night.
I couldnt help but see a bit of irony in that,
since that's pretty much how utility companies burn up most of their off-peak generating capacity every night.
Will we see that business model change within our lifetimes, as more people plug in their cars overnight?
Quote from: Gaspar on July 30, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
Here's what I found. The Leaf requires 8.8KWh per charging cycle. It has a 100mi range, but if you only drive 50 to 60 miles in a day you will still want to plug it in at night for a charge cycle to condition the battery.
It does not do that. Lithium Ion batteries should never be fully discharged. They should be topped up as often as possible for longest life. If Nissan is accurate in stating their 150mpg gasoline equivalent efficiency, it's easy to see how the operating costs would be much less.
There has been some speculative talk about using a few percent of electric car batteries in aggregate to supplement the grid to help keep the voltage more stable and reduce the impact of a massive increase in electricity demand on our aging transmission infrastructure.
Quote from: nathanm on July 29, 2010, 04:47:45 PM
Eh, the Veyron goes fast, but that's about all it does. I'd rather get through the corners fast than have to wait until I've got five miles to hit top speed. It would work well farther west. ;D
IMO, hybrids are weak for performance cars. Either go all gas or all electric. Even then, the only reason for electric is the ridiculous torque that can be applied at any speed.
A good hybrid can make a great daily driver, though.
Actually, I believe electric delivers max torque at zero rpm and goes down from there. I'm not sure what the curve is but I believe it's pretty good.
Give it a few more years. The ultra capacitors and other battery advancements should hit the consumer market then. That's when the electric will really be fun and viable. Almost instant charge and better loss rates.
Quote from: Smokinokie on August 02, 2010, 04:30:55 PM
Actually, I believe electric delivers max torque at zero rpm and goes down from there.
It depends on the motor design. Some have essentially zero starting torque.
Quote from: nathanm on August 02, 2010, 06:09:07 PM
It depends on the motor design. Some have essentially zero starting torque.
Yes but in my limited experience, I believe motors designed for transportation are designed for max torque at zero (or at least low) RPM.
A while back I acquired an old Honda CRX and was looking into converting it to electric. The problem was with the charge range. I drive a little under 60 miles RT for work. I couldn't throw enough batteries at it to get it to more than 45 miles on a single charge unless I went to a very expensive battery.
There is some truly amazing battery technology only a few years away. There is currently a company in the final stages of producing a usable ultra capacitor as well.
In the just ended series, Captain Slow went out in the new Veyron SS. It goes even faster, uses even more gas, and uses up tires in even less time. It also corners better than the original.
Quote from: nathanm on August 03, 2010, 10:57:13 AM
In the just ended series, Captain Slow went out in the new Veyron SS. It goes even faster, uses even more gas, and uses up tires in even less time. It also corners better than the original.
sounds like my kind of car.
Quote from: Smokinokie on August 03, 2010, 10:50:35 AM
Yes but in my limited experience, I believe motors designed for transportation are designed for max torque at zero (or at least low) RPM.
A while back I acquired an old Honda CRX and was looking into converting it to electric. The problem was with the charge range. I drive a little under 60 miles RT for work. I couldn't throw enough batteries at it to get it to more than 45 miles on a single charge unless I went to a very expensive battery.
There is some truly amazing battery technology only a few years away. There is currently a company in the final stages of producing a usable ultra capacitor as well.
You would be correct, a motor which carries a high load like a hydraulic pump or transmission will have a high torque at start up. An example of a low-torque at start up type motor would be a ceiling fan.
The new Government Volt dance.
Ford will be using this in it's ads :D.
Why Texas Bans the Sale of Tesla Carshttp://news.yahoo.com/blogs/nightline-fix-abc-news/why-texas-bans-sale-tesla-cars-140842349.html?vp=1 (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/nightline-fix-abc-news/why-texas-bans-sale-tesla-cars-140842349.html?vp=1)
Quote
When you're about to compete in your first electric car race, brace yourself for the sound ... of silence. But don't let those quiet engines fool you because these days, quiet means fast.
With every major car company looking for a share of the booming electric car market, the competition to go faster and further for cheaper has become an all-out war. Detroit, Japan and Germany are all represented, but right now, an unlikely newcomer is getting top honors: the Tesla Model S.
It's being hailed as a game changer. It's the first electric car to win Motor Trend's Car of the Year; an unprecedented 99 out of 100 rating from Consumer Reports; and now, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, it's also the safest car ever.
But if the Model S really is the car of the future, then why has Texas banned its sales in the state and why are lawmakers in several other states trying to do the same?
To answer that, first you need to meet Tesla CEO Elon Musk. He plans on opening 50 new Tesla stores in the next year. And taking a page from the Apple playbook, Musk is selling his product directly to consumers. No hard sell. No commission for employees. And uniform prices at every store.
"We actually train people to educate," explained Musk. "We always wanted to be a really low-key kind of friendly environment, where we're not constantly trying to close deals."
That's a dig at the traditional middlemen in the car-buying experience: the car dealers. Musk wants to cut them out completely. He thinks customers don't like them and that dealers are prejudiced against electric cars.
"It takes them at least twice as much effort to sell someone an electric car and to educate them as to why an electric car is good," said Musk. "And so if we were to go through the traditional dealer path, the result would be a disaster."
So Musk is declaring war on car dealers, but car dealers are also declaring war on Musk. They have already successfully booted him out of Texas and there is anti-Tesla legislation pending in North Carolina, Colorado and Virginia.
"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."
The outcome of the battle remains to be seen, but it's just one of many standing in Musk's way of the Model S becoming a mainstream success. For all the hype, only 20,000 have been sold.
I've never quite been clear on why franchise distribution has to be required by law for certain classes of product. As long as the law protects a manufacturer's right to use the franchise system if they so choose, their complaints are just anticompetitive BS.
sounds antitrust to me..
anyhow, here's an update
http://www.texastribune.org/2013/04/23/teslas-efforts-texas-trouble/
QuoteThe House Business and Industry Committee advanced a bill on Tuesday that would allow Tesla Motors to circumvent the state's franchise dealer system and sell cars directly to Texans, giving a shot in the arm to the company's efforts to operate in the state.
'Lectric cars need long extention cords so they will never be practical.
Quote from: sauerkraut on August 24, 2013, 09:34:18 AM
'Lectric cars need long extention cords so they will never be practical.
Unless, of course, you have one that can go up to 500 miles without a charge, especially with quick charge stations available. But don't let that stand in your way of thinking that driving gas guzzlers is the best way about it.
Quote from: custosnox on August 24, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
Unless, of course, you have one that can go up to 500 miles without a charge, especially with quick charge stations available. But don't let that stand in your way of thinking that driving gas guzzlers is the best way about it.
Remember who you're replying to C..
Quote from: Hoss on August 24, 2013, 03:07:46 PM
Remember who you're replying to C..
Oh, I know, the guy that thinks anything other than and old, beat up truck is practical.
Quote from: custosnox on August 24, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
Unless, of course, you have one that can go up to 500 miles without a charge, especially with quick charge stations available. But don't let that stand in your way of thinking that driving gas guzzlers is the best way about it.
Range is definitely an issue for many of us. As usual, it will be up to the rich and trendy folks to be the first on the block and eventually make it affordable for the rest of us. Guido, are you considering an electric car?
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 24, 2013, 08:27:19 PM
Range is definitely an issue for many of us. As usual, it will be up to the rich and trendy folks to be the first on the block and eventually make it affordable for the rest of us. Guido, are you considering an electric car?
It takes time. The cars themselves aren't expensive, the leaf starting at 21k. You can charge them in your garage over night with a special plug. For around town driving, you can get 30+ miles for just an hour's charge (quick charge stations are coming). No need to wait for the rich to start making this product popular. Of course, there will still be some issues to figure out over the next few years, but this is true with any new tech on the market.
Quote from: custosnox on August 24, 2013, 10:14:13 PM
It takes time. The cars themselves aren't expensive, the leaf starting at 21k. You can charge them in your garage over night with a special plug. For around town driving, you can get 30+ miles for just an hour's charge (quick charge stations are coming). No need to wait for the rich to start making this product popular. Of course, there will still be some issues to figure out over the next few years, but this is true with any new tech on the market.
I believe it will take the rich buyers to finance the research to get the range up to where they are as practical as a petroleum fueled car. Stop, recharge, and go at least 300 miles with only a 10 minute "recharge" time.
If you only need an around town car, yes, they are available now. Cost? Rebates skew the cost.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 24, 2013, 10:53:30 PM
I believe it will take the rich buyers to finance the research to get the range up to where they are as practical as a petroleum fueled car. Stop, recharge, and go at least 300 miles with only a 10 minute "recharge" time.
If you only need an around town car, yes, they are available now. Cost? Rebates skew the cost.
the charge time I gave, it was for an at home charger. The charge stations are faster, though I don't know the exact times. They have a number of things in the works for faster times.
As far as the cost, Kim thinking that was pre rebate cost, but would have to be sure, but even if it isn't, it wouldn't be a big enough price difference to be considered just for the rich. The Tesla, on the other hand, dues have a pretty big price tag before the rebate, and even after it is outside of the price range of everyone except the better off.
Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk
Quote from: custosnox on August 25, 2013, 03:25:49 PM
As far as the cost, Kim thinking that was pre rebate cost, but would have to be sure, but even if it isn't, it wouldn't be a big enough price difference to be considered just for the rich.
As low as $21K to $27K
after "federal tax savings". If you don't pay enough taxes, you may not save much. I am not just thinking of poor people. I am thinking of professionals with a big house mortgage, kids.....
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 25, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
As low as $21K to $27K after "federal tax savings". If you don't pay enough taxes, you may not save much. I am not just thinking of poor people. I am thinking of professionals with a big house mortgage, kids.....
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/
$28.8K to $34.8K base prices
before federal tax savings. Yes, quiet a bit more than the marketing prices, but still not an outrages price. The Maxima starts at $31k.
Quote from: custosnox on August 26, 2013, 04:35:29 PM
$28.8K to $34.8K base prices before federal tax savings. Yes, quiet a bit more than the marketing prices, but still not an outrages price. The Maxima starts at $31k.
They are getting into BMW territory. Whoda thunk, a BMW for everyone.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupe/default.aspx?from=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupeRD.aspx&return=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupeRD.aspx
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedan/default.aspx?from=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedanRD.aspx&return=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedanRD.aspx
Quote from: Smokinokie on August 03, 2010, 10:50:35 AM
Yes but in my limited experience, I believe motors designed for transportation are designed for max torque at zero (or at least low) RPM.
A while back I acquired an old Honda CRX and was looking into converting it to electric. The problem was with the charge range. I drive a little under 60 miles RT for work. I couldn't throw enough batteries at it to get it to more than 45 miles on a single charge unless I went to a very expensive battery.
There is some truly amazing battery technology only a few years away. There is currently a company in the final stages of producing a usable ultra capacitor as well.
DC versus AC. See below - first curve is DC. AC is second curve, which is more what you would want for electric vehicle. (18 HP isn't big enough, but that scales up).
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+motor+torque+curve&client=firefox-a&hs=BM7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8t4bUuO0NYHB2wXP94C4Aw&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1176&bih=782
Tesla is already doing it. They have reached the milestone of selling lots of cars to the rich people - 20,000 a year. Now, they are gonna start on the lower end stuff - 40k for a very nice looking sedan! I like the styling - may have to buy one. Plus, they are putting in a system of charges that will give you the 200 mile charge in about half an hour or so....and yes, the wording is right - literally give you the charge. For the life of the car. Fill up free forever.
Move the little slider under the map to see where they are going - by 2015.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
Or, do a battery swap for a few bucks...done in 90 seconds! Faster than filling your tank with gas.
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap
And if you are curious - yep, you missed getting in on the ground floor. The stock has skyrocketed with two profitable quarters in a row.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 26, 2013, 05:19:15 PM
They are getting into BMW territory. Whoda thunk, a BMW for everyone.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupe/default.aspx?from=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupeRD.aspx&return=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2013/1/128iCoupeRD.aspx
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedan/default.aspx?from=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedanRD.aspx&return=/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2014/3/320iSedanRD.aspx
Or less than a Chevy truck, which seems rampant around here
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-3500hd-diesel-trucks.html
Or an Avalanche
http://www.chevrolet.com/avalanche-suv-truck.html
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on August 26, 2013, 06:14:54 PM
Tesla is already doing it. They have reached the milestone of selling lots of cars to the rich people - 20,000 a year. Now, they are gonna start on the lower end stuff - 40k for a very nice looking sedan! I like the styling - may have to buy one. Plus, they are putting in a system of charges that will give you the 200 mile charge in about half an hour or so....and yes, the wording is right - literally give you the charge. For the life of the car. Fill up free forever.
Move the little slider under the map to see where they are going - by 2015.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
Or, do a battery swap for a few bucks...done in 90 seconds! Faster than filling your tank with gas.
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap
And if you are curious - yep, you missed getting in on the ground floor. The stock has skyrocketed with two profitable quarters in a row.
I had seen the battery swap tech in a mag a bit back, but last time I was in a Tesla dealership, the sales lady wasn't aware of it, but had told me the cars were already set up for quick and easy removal of the battery for maintenance. Looks like they are really getting this idea moving. I thought I saw a bigger price tag on the Tesla. Is that the after rebate price that Guido will quibble over? Personally, I want the Roadster, if I was a lawyer or something with money.
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss9/custosnox/2011-04-08124217.jpg)
I don't remember ever getting a reasonable answer on what it will cost to replace a battery at the end of its life. With that in mind, I think a battery exchange which operates like grill size propane bottle exchanges might be a good plan. You own "a battery" but not a specific battery. The exchange would maintain the batteries as well as keep them charged.
I also see a lot more old pickup trucks than new ones. There are a significant number of people with money in the Tulsa Metro Area. Seeing a few thousand new pickups, BMWs, Lexus..... doesn't mean they are really affordable. I kind of draw the line at low $20K as the upper reaches of what I call affordable. I also remember buying a new Buick Skylark Sport Coupe in 1981 for less than $9K. I think the base model was about $6.5K.
Quote from: custosnox on August 26, 2013, 08:31:54 PM
Or less than a Chevy truck, which seems rampant around here
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-3500hd-diesel-trucks.html
Or an Avalanche
http://www.chevrolet.com/avalanche-suv-truck.html
Of course not everyone buys a 3500 diesel.
Entry level is more like:
Silverado 1500
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-1500-pickup-truck.html
Don't misunderstand me. I think electric has a lot of promise. It's getting closer to reality for the masses but I don't think it's there yet.
Exchangeable rechargeable universal batteries seems like a no-brainer to me.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 26, 2013, 09:53:34 PM
I don't remember ever getting a reasonable answer on what it will cost to replace a battery at the end of its life. With that in mind, I think a battery exchange which operates like grill size propane bottle exchanges might be a good plan. You own "a battery" but not a specific battery. The exchange would maintain the batteries as well as keep them charged.
I also see a lot more old pickup trucks than new ones. There are a significant number of people with money in the Tulsa Metro Area. Seeing a few thousand new pickups, BMWs, Lexus..... doesn't mean they are really affordable. I kind of draw the line at low $20K as the upper reaches of what I call affordable. I also remember buying a new Buick Skylark Sport Coupe in 1981 for less than $9K. I think the base model was about $6.5K.
Way back in 2010, the straight out replacement cost was estimated at $30,000. Caveats - you could then buy a 'pre-paid' battery option for 10 years from then (expected life), when the warranty went away for $12,000. (Future value of 12k is about 15k in 10 years or so, for the 'real' cost then.)
And the battery swap thing is predicated on you coming back to the charging station at some point to retrieve your battery, charged and ready to go....not sure how the logistics of that will work. But the free charge in 30 minutes works like a charm for me!! Works great for me on a lot of the trips made around this area.
Price of the future sedan is estimated at about $40k. Today's cars are double that for high capacity model - 300 mile range or so.
Given the fact that lithium ion technology has been going done at 10-15% per year, well, that will level off, but at much less than 30k. At which time graphene supercapps will be (may be??) available for about the same as today's lithium.
And I'm keeping my old pickup!! It's a Dodge, after all....
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 26, 2013, 10:08:37 PM
Of course not everyone buys a 3500 diesel.
Entry level is more like:
Silverado 1500
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado-1500-pickup-truck.html
Don't misunderstand me. I think electric has a lot of promise. It's getting closer to reality for the masses but I don't think it's there yet.
My point is that you see a lot of these vehicles out on the street, meaning that it's not that far out of the price range of the masses. Not to mention that this is one of the poorest states in the union. No, I'm not saying that they are cheap, but for a new technology, they aren't exorbitant in price either. Given a bit more time, I wouldn't be surprised to see even lower costs (if I recall, just two years ago I think I recall the MSRP on leafs sitting at around $40K)
Everyone should read Start Up Nation.
Quote from: custosnox on August 27, 2013, 06:43:49 PM
My point is that you see a lot of these vehicles out on the street, meaning that it's not that far out of the price range of the masses.
I understand your point. I disagree with your assessment regarding the quantity of $30+K diesel duallie pickup trucks and perhaps who (or what businness) owns them. They are somewhat distinctive and stand out more than other vehicles. Have you also noticed that after you buy a car that there are a lot more of them on the road than before you bought it? The entry level Leaf is in the affordable range after tax benefits, assuming you pay enough tax to get those benefits.
I would pick a tesla over cars of similar price point. But I can't bring myself to spend that much on a depreciating liability like a car when I could buy 2-3 cheaper cars.
Quote from: CharlieSheen on August 27, 2013, 08:07:48 PM
I would pick a tesla over cars of similar price point. But I can't bring myself to spend that much on a depreciating liability like a car when I could buy 2-3 cheaper cars.
Wait a couple years - it will be much lower for a sedan.
If I were guido, though, I would have one now!!
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 27, 2013, 07:41:59 PM
I understand your point. I disagree with your assessment regarding the quantity of $30+K diesel duallie pickup trucks and perhaps who (or what businness) owns them. They are somewhat distinctive and stand out more than other vehicles. Have you also noticed that after you buy a car that there are a lot more of them on the road than before you bought it? The entry level Leaf is in the affordable range after tax benefits, assuming you pay enough tax to get those benefits.
and the even more expensive avalanche? I see quiet a few of them on the road. As for the diesel, I actually meant to post the gasoline burning 2500, which, while cheaper, is still in the price range of the leaf, popular, and not generally lumped in with bmws
Sent from my galaxy, far far away, with tapatalk
Quote from: custosnox on August 27, 2013, 09:00:07 PM
and the even more expensive avalanche? I see quiet a few of them on the road. As for the diesel, I actually meant to post the gasoline burning 2500, which, while cheaper, is still in the price range of the leaf, popular, and not generally lumped in with bmws
Maybe you just spend too much time in the rich part of town. ;D
I see those vehicles too, along with BMW, Lexus, Infinity.... I just believe that the quantity of new ones does not define affordable as nearly $30K. We obviously disagree.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 27, 2013, 10:21:07 PM
Maybe you just spend too much time in the rich part of town. ;D
I see those vehicles too, along with BMW, Lexus, Infinity.... I just believe that the quantity of new ones does not define affordable as nearly $30K. We obviously disagree.
I live in East Tulsa, commute to downtown and TU, and while I see the occasional BMW, Lexus, and other luxury cars, I don't see them at the same frequency as heavier duty trucks. It's a matter of what people are willing to pay for, in this state they see trucks as a reason to spend a bit more, but luxury cars only if you want to show off having money. I can just imagine that the general public here would be appalled at spending that kind of money on something as useless as an electric car.
The 10 Most Incredible Cars of the Future
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2012/08/22/10-Most-Incredible-Cars-of-the-Future.aspx?index=1 (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Media/Slideshow/2012/08/22/10-Most-Incredible-Cars-of-the-Future.aspx?index=1)
I think I will stick with the diesel truck....can tow anything I will ever want to tow. At a reasonable 9 mpg!! Would last me at least another half million miles - way more than I am likely to want to camp out for the rest of my time.
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=4217339
Even if I want to tow this....
http://www.andersonmobileestates.com/trailer-heat.php
guido, THIS is what camping is all about.....every amenity even you could imagine - maybe more! I especially like the marble treatments.
Anything that says ". . .of the future" hasn't graduated from the infomercial stage of marketing yet.
The problem is simple physics. A typical tank of gasoline has about 3,000mJ of energy and weighs about 130-140lbs.
Depending on the technology used, an electric car fuel cell only has about 5% to 10% of that energy capacity and can weigh thousands of pounds. The batteries in the smallest examples, like the Nissan leaf weigh 660lbs.
Until we can solve the energy storage problem, electric cars just won't be that cool (literally and figuratively).
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 07:56:06 AM
Anything that says ". . .of the future" hasn't graduated from the infomercial stage of marketing yet.
It wasn't posted as a "here they are".
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 07:56:06 AM
Anything that says ". . .of the future" hasn't graduated from the infomercial stage of marketing yet.
The problem is simple physics. A typical tank of gasoline has about 3,000mJ of energy and weighs about 130-140lbs.
Depending on the technology used, an electric car fuel cell only has about 5% to 10% of that energy capacity and can weigh thousands of pounds. The batteries in the smallest examples, like the Nissan leaf weigh 660lbs.
Until we can solve the energy storage problem, electric cars just won't be that cool (literally and figuratively).
Coming soon to a battery system near you....
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/163071-graphene-supercapacitors-created-with-traditional-paper-making-process-rivals-lead-acid-battery-capacity
And here....
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/08/130821-supercapacitors/
I use supercaps (conventional) quite a bit and for the application, they are perfect. If even some or hopefully most of the hype about this new thing is true, then we really do have the energy storage solution for electric systems. Notice I DID NOT say electric cars - it is vastly MORE than just electric cars. I already have 3 major designs I am ready to expand on that are waiting specifically on this - next storage technology - well, I am using lead acid for now, but they will be hugely better with this.
As for "of the future"...well, electric and hybrid cars are here now. Today, and for the past several years. Just waiting on pricing relative to scaled up production for the middle class to be able to afford it. Kind of like where we were in about 1910 with the internal combustion automobile. It was there - just had to be rich to get it. Elon Musk is Henry Ford reincarnated.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 07:56:06 AM
Anything that says ". . .of the future" hasn't graduated from the infomercial stage of marketing yet.
The problem is simple physics. A typical tank of gasoline has about 3,000mJ of energy and weighs about 130-140lbs.
Depending on the technology used, an electric car fuel cell only has about 5% to 10% of that energy capacity and can weigh thousands of pounds. The batteries in the smallest examples, like the Nissan leaf weigh 660lbs.
Until we can solve the energy storage problem, electric cars just won't be that cool (literally and figuratively).
You forget, the battery also takes the place of the engine, which can weigh well over 500 lbs itself (V8) and the transmission, which can weigh a couple of hundred. Low end, a tank of gas, a small engine (not counting those crappy 3 cylinders) and a transaxle, you are looking at close to 500, if not more. a fully charged fuel cell in newer generation batteries can get 300 miles or more. Generally a tank of gas will get from 300 to 500. I'm not sure where you are getting this 5% to 10% from, but even if those numbers are accurate (which would mean that the gasoline engines are not using the full potential of the energy of the gas, thus making them far less efficient than the batteries), you're trying to use them to paint a picture that doesn't exist.
Quote from: custosnox on August 29, 2013, 11:46:18 AM
You forget, the battery also takes the place of the engine, which can weigh well over 500 lbs itself (V8) and the transmission, which can weigh a couple of hundred. Low end, a tank of gas, a small engine (not counting those crappy 3 cylinders) and a transaxle, you are looking at close to 500, if not more. a fully charged fuel cell in newer generation batteries can get 300 miles or more. Generally a tank of gas will get from 300 to 500. I'm not sure where you are getting this 5% to 10% from, but even if those numbers are accurate (which would mean that the gasoline engines are not using the full potential of the energy of the gas, thus making them far less efficient than the batteries), you're trying to use them to paint a picture that doesn't exist.
There is still a motor, transmission and transaxle to get that battery power to the ground, not sure the weight though electric motors can be pretty substantial:
Nissan Leaf drive-line
edit: Nice read on the Leaf: http://www.electricownersclub.com/NissanLeaf2.html
(http://www.electricownersclub.com/images/LeafMotor.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on August 29, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
There is still a motor, transmission and transaxle to get that battery power to the ground, not sure the weight though electric motors can be pretty substantial:
Nissan Leaf drive-line
edit: Nice read on the Leaf: http://www.electricownersclub.com/NissanLeaf2.html
(http://www.electricownersclub.com/images/LeafMotor.jpg)
I stand corrected. I had something completely different in mind for the powertrain, and hadn't gotten the chance to look into it. It doesn't change the mileage per charge vs per tank, however.
ah, here are some weight numbers
Quote
Rotors and stators are made of stacked silicon steel sheet disks, 200mm thick and 300mm in diameter. The motor itself, including the aluminum-alloy case, is just under 60kg, and the inverter weighs a bit over 15kg.
So an additional 175 lbs for those. Not really stacking up to this huge weight difference that Gasp was alluding to.
I never heard it mentioned about how long those 'Lectric car motors can last? Can they go 200,000 miles like a gasoline engine can or will the 'Lectric motors require a costly rebuild every so many thousand miles? Todays diesel engines can go many hundreds of thousand miles before they require major work. The electric motors they put in the cars don't look all the beefy.
Sauer, did you ever wonder why locomotives and vehicles like the cog railway up to Pikes Peak use electric motors to propel them and diesels to run their generators? Diesel is great for longevity and torque at certain rpms but they don't have the instant torque at low rpm that electric motors do. Combine the two and you have a great drive train. Diesel alone is stinky, expensive to repair and noisy....for a long time...but still not as reliable as a good electric motor.
Quote from: custosnox on August 29, 2013, 11:46:18 AM
You forget, the battery also takes the place of the engine, which can weigh well over 500 lbs itself (V8) and the transmission, which can weigh a couple of hundred. Low end, a tank of gas, a small engine (not counting those crappy 3 cylinders) and a transaxle, you are looking at close to 500, if not more. a fully charged fuel cell in newer generation batteries can get 300 miles or more. Generally a tank of gas will get from 300 to 500. I'm not sure where you are getting this 5% to 10% from, but even if those numbers are accurate (which would mean that the gasoline engines are not using the full potential of the energy of the gas, thus making them far less efficient than the batteries), you're trying to use them to paint a picture that doesn't exist.
That is not correct.
There is still an electric motor (or several). Most models still rely on a transmission of sorts with flywheel and transaxel. I am not aware of any models with a 300 mile range. The leaf is only 73mi, and the Volt is only goes 32-58mi on battery (then the gasoline engine kicks in). In comparison, the Chevy volt is 700lbs heavier than it's gasoline equivalent (Chevy Cruise). Of course gasoline engines are not 100% efficient (no engine is), in that they produce heat. Electric engines produce far less heat, but the inefficiency comes with the power source (batteries are very inefficient and produce significant heat during charge/discharge, and unless you have a home nuclear plant you are dealing with transmission loss). The cost savings in the operation of an electric vehicle comes only from the fact that you are pulling energy from the grid through burning coal, oil, gas, nuclear. Rather than producing energy onboard through internal combustion.
If you wonder why there is not an all electric SUV, it's because the weight to power ratio would equate to a ridiculous vehicle. Imagine a pickup truck that weighs 10,000lbs and can't tow a trailer.
We'll get there some day but not until we have the right battery and/or power source.
I believe I read the 2013 Leaf is supposed to have a 120 mile range and top speed of 93 MPH. So you could get to OKC on a charge. The draw-back to quick-charging the batteries for a quick turn-around is that quick charging does start to impact the battery's life and will shorten it if done repeatedly. There are also other climatological warnings Nissan makes in regards to exposure to maximum and minimum temps for extended periods and other charging practices like not doing a recharge when the battery has over 80% charge remaining.
I don't ever see an electric car being practical for me while I'm still living in Tulsa as I tend to go anywhere from 200 to 500 miles a week and sometimes day trips can be 300-400 miles. Could be practical for MC as she doesn't have to travel far during the day, but we also have motorcycles and bicycles for cost-effective transportation that she would rather ride.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
If you wonder why there is not an all electric SUV, it's because the weight to power ratio would equate to a ridiculous vehicle. Imagine a pickup truck that weighs 10,000lbs and can't tow a trailer.
RAV4 EV exists, and could easily tow a trailer, as it has more torque than the standard 4 banger or the no longer available V6. Of course, it's got a less than 100 mile range. There also is/was a version of the Escape. Not here, though. Like Nissan, most manufacturers are limiting PEV sales to a few states.
Clearly EVs are not for everyone at this point. Few people would say they are. Claiming they're fatally flawed and will never amount to anything, however, is just refusing to see the world in front of you because it doesn't comport with your political views. It's like claiming solar power is worthless and will never be used when its value has been proven and it is widely used. Better to say that neither are silver bullets, because that's actually true.
An EV is definitely not for me, but that's mainly because owning any car simply isn't cost effective when you (would) drive less than 20 miles most weeks and almost never more than 40 except for infrequent out of town trips.
Quote from: nathanm on August 29, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
RAV4 EV exists, and could easily tow a trailer, as it has more torque than the standard 4 banger or the no longer available V6. Of course, it's got a less than 100 mile range. There also is/was a version of the Escape. Not here, though. Like Nissan, most manufacturers are limiting PEV sales to a few states.
Clearly EVs are not for everyone at this point. Few people would say they are. Claiming they're fatally flawed and will never amount to anything, however, is just refusing to see the world in front of you because it doesn't comport with your political views. It's like claiming solar power is worthless and will never be used when its value has been proven and it is widely used. Better to say that neither are silver bullets, because that's actually true.
An EV is definitely not for me, but that's mainly because owning any car simply isn't cost effective when you (would) drive less than 20 miles most weeks and almost never more than 40 except for infrequent out of town trips.
RAV4 EV info from Toyota site:
Battery weight: 845.5 Lb
Range: 103 mi
Price: Starting at $49800 msrp
http://www.toyota.com/rav4ev/#!/Welcome
Edit:
Curb weights:
LE = 3435 Lb
XLE = 3465 Lb
Limited = 3500 Lb
EV = 4032 Lb
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
That is not correct.
There is still an electric motor (or several). Most models still rely on a transmission of sorts with flywheel and transaxel. I am not aware of any models with a 300 mile range. The leaf is only 73mi, and the Volt is only goes 32-58mi on battery (then the gasoline engine kicks in). In comparison, the Chevy volt is 700lbs heavier than it's gasoline equivalent (Chevy Cruise).
Why don't you pay attention? There are many references to Tesla here and the internet right now is abuzz with the company. And the 300 mile range. And the FREE recharge at their charging stations. And the 90 second battery change out.
Electric cars are viable. Today. Have been for a few years, actually.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 29, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
We'll get there some day but not until we have the right battery and/or power source.
And as I said earlier - it will be a capacitor. NOT a battery.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on August 29, 2013, 06:45:44 PM
Why don't you pay attention? There are many references to Tesla here and the internet right now is abuzz with the company. And the 300 mile range. And the FREE recharge at their charging stations. And the 90 second battery change out.
Electric cars are viable. Today. Have been for a few years, actually.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/
I saw this movie a couple of years back about the GM EV-1. A totally electric car you had to 'lease' in order to even own it. Turns out the big oil lobby knows its way around the halls of gubmint. Fascinating film.
It surprised me that GM flatly refused to allow EV-1 owners to buy their cars at any price, even after it was decided that they'd just be put through a chipper.
Quote from: nathanm on August 29, 2013, 07:21:53 PM
It surprised me that GM flatly refused to allow EV-1 owners to buy their cars at any price, even after it was decided that they'd just be put through a chipper.
GM probably didn't want to support those vehicles for 10 or more years. I understood them to be a test bed only. Get some real world input on the design.
As a point of reference for the price of gasoline vs. battery replacement:
Assumptions: (Legitimate thing as long as they are stated. You can define other assumptions and get your own numbers.)
100,000 miles at 25 MPG = 4,000 gallons
4,000 gallons at $3.50 per gallon = $14,000. (I know the price of gas will probably not remain constant but it makes the analysis easier to do and understand.)
Free electricity for 100,000 miles.
So, at 100,000 miles if your battery replacement costs $14,000. you are at the break even point. That does not include the premium for buying the electric vehicle at the beginning.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 29, 2013, 08:04:05 PM
As a point of reference for the price of gasoline vs. battery replacement:
Assumptions: (Legitimate thing as long as they are stated. You can define other assumptions and get your own numbers.)
100,000 miles at 25 MPG = 4,000 gallons
4,000 gallons at $3.50 per gallon = $14,000. (I know the price of gas will probably not remain constant but it makes the analysis easier to do and understand.)
Free electricity for 100,000 miles.
So, at 100,000 miles if your battery replacement costs $14,000. you are at the break even point. That does not include the premium for buying the electric vehicle at the beginning.
I'm curious, how many people do you think own a vehicle for 100,000 miles? The leaf's battery is predicted to lose 20% effectiveness in five years, 30% in ten. I would say that is a pretty good run before replacing the battery, and longer than the life of most cars today.
The bottom line is, no matter how much you want to deny it, electric cars are viable today. They may not be cheap, and you may not be able to justify it by cost alone, but if that was all John Q Public was after, we would have roads littered with Nissan Versas. People buy not only what they can afford, but also what they want in that price range. It will take time for the market to get real traction, even more so because of arguments like what have been presented on here, and in that time more technologies will come out, making these even more of an option for those who want them.
Quote from: custosnox on August 29, 2013, 09:38:02 PM
I'm curious, how many people do you think own a vehicle for 100,000 miles? The leaf's battery is predicted to lose 20% effectiveness in five years, 30% in ten. I would say that is a pretty good run before replacing the battery, and longer than the life of most cars today.
The bottom line is, no matter how much you want to deny it, electric cars are viable today. They may not be cheap, and you may not be able to justify it by cost alone, but if that was all John Q Public was after, we would have roads littered with Nissan Versas. People buy not only what they can afford, but also what they want in that price range. It will take time for the market to get real traction, even more so because of arguments like what have been presented on here, and in that time more technologies will come out, making these even more of an option for those who want them.
I think I am may be one of the few who goes over 100,000...I have 3 vehicles right now, one with 297,000 and the lowest with 193,000. All doing well and the two Gr Marquis' are very comfortable. Also have an older '89 Gr Marquis with about 210,000 that has electrical issues - a short in the wiring harness I haven't found yet - that should be back on the road soon - it's the most comfortable of the bunch as road trip car. Like the looks of it the best, too.
Second part - so true... if people bought cars just on cost justification, there would never be a BMW sold again. Or Mercedes. The go-to cars would be Camry and Accord - arguably the best cost/performance autos made today. Maybe (probably) the Hyundai Sonata. Everything else is just bling and self gratification....
Quote from: custosnox on August 29, 2013, 09:38:02 PM
I'm curious, how many people do you think own a vehicle for 100,000 miles? The leaf's battery is predicted to lose 20% effectiveness in five years, 30% in ten. I would say that is a pretty good run before replacing the battery, and longer than the life of most cars today.
I have owned 5 cars since 1971. I have put at least 100,000 on each of them. I bought 2 of them brand new. One of them was a 1981 Buick Skylark (X-body, Citation, Phoenix, Omega, Skylark) which I put 278,000 miles on before deciding I didn't want to put any more money into it.
QuoteThe bottom line is, no matter how much you want to deny it, electric cars are viable today. They may not be cheap, and you may not be able to justify it by cost alone, but if that was all John Q Public was after, we would have roads littered with Nissan Versas. People buy not only what they can afford, but also what they want in that price range. It will take time for the market to get real traction, even more so because of arguments like what have been presented on here, and in that time more technologies will come out, making these even more of an option for those who want them.
Electric cars are indeed viable now if your needs fit the cars' capabilities. If I drove primarily in stop and go city traffic, I would definitely consider either electric or hybrid. I don't presently so I see no real value in either for me at the moment. I also have all the expensive toys I care to run and maintain at the moment so an electric car as another toy is not in the picture. Your results may vary. Ignoring things like battery replacement is not wise. The expected battery life will affect the resale value of your used EV when you sell it or trade it in on a new one. One of the reasons I have been able to keep my toys is because I have evaluated the cost of keeping them after I purchase them. As you note, we all make choices on how to spend our money.