The TW has done a series of stories about Section 8 housing in Tulsa. While not all Section 8 housing is bad it is known for sometimes being rundown and a source of crime. It is well known that Section 8 can bring down housing values and just the perception can affect people wanting or not wanting to live in neighborhoods near it. If you look at the maps a good portion of the city is either in Section 8 territory or nearby except for midtown and south Tulsa. The 61st/71st & Peoria area really stands out. How does this affect the future of our city with regards to crime and people moving into these neighborhoods? Do we need government housing reform to ensure slum landlords keep up their properties and demand more from the residents?
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2010/A9section8map0606.jpg)
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100606_A1_section8single0606.jpg)
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100606_A1_section8multi0606.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100606_11_A1_Zandre962574&allcom=1#commentform (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100606_11_A1_Zandre962574&allcom=1#commentform)
Contrary to popular belief these days, "Government Reform" isn't the answer to every problem. Low income housing is a fact of life and a necessity. You can't simply pick up people in wholesale lots and disperse them throughout a city to keep poverty pockets and quasi-slums from sprouting up. Landlord upkeep has little, if any bearing on crime, teen pregnancy rates, or even the sun setting in the west every evening. Crime seems to be more of a problem in lower income areas of the city, but take a look at the crime maps, no single area is completely free from it. Government can't force people to respect others lives and property. Those answers are found elsewhere.
Along the lines of landlords taking care of their properties, the project at 21st & Jackson has been undergoing a facelift for a few months. And I suspect it will change nothing of the lifestyle of the tennants when they are done.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 07, 2010, 09:52:34 AM
Government can't force people to respect others lives and property.
Laws?
Quote from: Townsend on June 07, 2010, 10:00:51 AM
Laws?
I think what he means is that the goobermint can't be proactive (preventive), but it is reactive (punishment).
Quote from: Conan71 on June 07, 2010, 10:15:15 AM
You can't force people to obey laws either
I think the laws and punishment for not respecting them is a governments attempt at forcing people to respect other's lives and property.
It's pretty much forced (enforcement) if not followed as an absolute. I feel forced to follow a speed limit as an example. There's been many times I wanted to go faster but I didn't because I tend to follow the laws.
It's Monday, maybe my brain is on backup.
Anyway, sorry for the drift.
Quote from: Townsend on June 07, 2010, 10:21:08 AM
I think the laws and punishment for not respecting them is a governments attempt at forcing people to respect other's lives and property.
It's pretty much forced (enforcement) if not followed as an absolute. I feel forced to follow a speed limit as an example. There's been many times I wanted to go faster but I didn't because I tend to follow the laws.
It's Monday, maybe my brain is on backup.
Anyway, sorry for the drift.
For people who are wired to respect other's property and lives like you and I, it's not the punishment which has a deterrent effect. Rather it's something instilled in us a looong time ago. Granted, fines for speeding and what that does to my insurance does help me keep my speed in check when I'm in a hurry. I'm sure the threat of prison time has made some people think twice before robbing someone or killing someone, but for most of those who are out there perpetrating those crimes, they simply don't care about the consequences.
What we need in Tulsa is simply more well paying jobs. More jobs of any sort. When people have good jobs they miraculously start a culture change. The culture is what needs changed.
Section 8 housing has far more neg. effects than helpful or postive effects on a neighborhood or city. It seems South Tulsa is getting full of crime, some guy was just robbed after pulling into his apartment complex in the mid-south Tulsa area. However, North "T" Town still has it's fair share of shootings though. ::)
Quote from: sauerkraut on June 07, 2010, 11:52:05 AM
Section 8 housing has far more neg. effects than helpful or postive effects on a neighborhood or city. It seems South Tulsa is getting full of crime, some guy was just robbed after pulling into his apartment complex in the mid-south Tulsa area. However, North "T" Town still has it's fair share of shootings though. ::)
(http://www.quizlaw.com/blog/images/captain-obvious.jpg)
Again with the "T" Town crap...jeez.
I want to rent that one in Maple Ridge (Green dot single family home around 26th & Peoria)
:D
Interesting that Southern Hills is right next to a high concentration of Section 8 to the north and west, yet some of the nicest neighborhoods in the city are on the south and east sides of the club.
Quote from: waterboy on June 07, 2010, 11:26:42 AM
What we need in Tulsa is simply more well paying jobs. More jobs of any sort. When people have good jobs they miraculously start a culture change. The culture is what needs changed.
+1
Yup, what Conan said. The thought of punishment is rarely a deterrent. Many criminals think they're too smart to be caught and prosecuted.
Quote from: Hoss on June 07, 2010, 10:13:39 AM
I think what he means is that the goobermint can't be proactive (preventive), but it is reactive (punishment).
Which is an utterly ridiculous assertion. Head Start and similar programs, for example, have been shown to have lasting effects in reducing the chance of a former participant choosing to join a gang. Sex education in school has been shown to significantly reduce teen pregnancy rates, when the program is not abstinence only. Generally speaking, increasing education and improving the economy reduces the crime rate. Why shouldn't we, through our elected representatives, fund programs that work towards those ends?
Unfortunately, our punishment-based system doesn't work all that well. Why? Because punishment doesn't work very well in general. Helping people feel like they're part of society rather than on its fringe works much better.
QuoteHelping people feel like they're part of society rather than on its fringe works much better.
Committing crime in itself suggests profound disinterest in "being a part". In other words, I'm unconvinced that programs with that goal in mind are worth the trouble to institute and maintain as most recidivists don't share the interest you describe.
Quote...increasing education...
Always a good thing.
Quote...improving the economy [through government means]...
Not so sure about this one - unless you're talking deregulation! Or at least more effective, less onerous and less wasteful regulation. :)
Also, teen pregnancy isn't necessarily criminal, though it's most often undesirable. ;)
All the same, I must agree that our punishment-based system doesn't appear very effective...
And each of the section 8 houses in my immediate neighborhood has been a perennial crime nexus.
Quote from: buckeye on June 08, 2010, 04:45:17 PM
Committing crime in itself suggests profound disinterest in "being a part". In other words, I'm unconvinced that programs with that goal in mind are worth the trouble to institute and maintain as most recidivists don't share the interest you describe.
Always a good thing.
Sometimes it does. Sometimes it's desperation. Nevertheless I wasn't talking about adult offenders. I was talking about help for at risk kids and doing what we can to help them to feel like they are a part of society and that society works for them. Helping them have the tools they need to avoid a life of crime is money well spent.
Quote
Not so sure about this one - unless you're talking deregulation! Or at least more effective, less onerous and less wasteful regulation. :)
I find it hard to believe you're in favor of further deregulation given how thoroughly the faults of that policy are becoming more and more apparent. Between ye olde financial meltdown, the blowout, and all the other issues being caused by the failure of regulators to use the regulations available to them to prevent these crises. (Funny how it turns out that staffing regulatory agencies with people who don't believe in regulatory agencies keeps them from doing their legal duty..MMS being the most recent shining example of that)
There is such a thing as excessive capitalism. There is also such a thing as excessive regulation. A balance must be struck to prevent companies from leaving their poo all over the commons.
Quote from: nathanm on June 08, 2010, 03:13:58 PM
Which is an utterly ridiculous assertion. Head Start and similar programs, for example, have been shown to have lasting effects in reducing the chance of a former participant choosing to join a gang. Sex education in school has been shown to significantly reduce teen pregnancy rates, when the program is not abstinence only. Generally speaking, increasing education and improving the economy reduces the crime rate. Why shouldn't we, through our elected representatives, fund programs that work towards those ends?
Unfortunately, our punishment-based system doesn't work all that well. Why? Because punishment doesn't work very well in general. Helping people feel like they're part of society rather than on its fringe works much better.
Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?
Quote from: Conan71 on June 08, 2010, 10:01:57 PM
Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?
Do you ever ask people whose worldview comports more closely with yours to do that? I presume you believe I'm talking out of my donkey, then?
Quote from: Conan71 on June 08, 2010, 10:01:57 PM
Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?
How bout some direct proof. If we were to punish you, would you change what you believe? ;D
Quote from: nathanm on June 08, 2010, 11:38:26 PM
Do you ever ask people whose worldview comports more closely with yours to do that? I presume you believe I'm talking out of my donkey, then?
Absolutely, on all counts ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on June 09, 2010, 08:27:11 AM
Absolutely, on all counts ;)
I think we need him now that FOTD is gone. He serves a purpose.
(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/despair-poster-mistakes.jpg)
We Kemosabe? You got a rabbit's foot in your pocket or something? :)
"You can't simply pick up people in wholesale lots and disperse them throughout a city to keep poverty pockets and quasi-slums from sprouting up."
And yet, that is exactly what low income housing efforts have done for decades. The big city 'projects' were such abysmal failures, the thought was to spread more evenly throughout any given area.
The poorest sections of Tulsa, and the 'center' of public housing in the '60s was the Apache Manor area. It was pretty bad at times. Since the '70s, section 8 housing has been spread around much more.
Proof that the threat of a prison term deters crime: My marraige ended with me being divorced, not a widower.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 09, 2010, 08:27:11 AM
Absolutely, on all counts ;)
Here is a link to but one of the many studies that show that early childhood education has lasting effects: http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/
Conan, you should know by now that when I say "studies have shown" something, there are indeed studies that show what I'm claiming they do.
I don't have a study at hand to cite, but I've seen several that show that educational programs in prison also reduce recidivism rates, which have been increasing since we've gone to the "bore them to death" method of punishment we use now. Yes, there are plenty of folks such things don't get through to, but is that a good reason to abandon those who can be helped?
Edited to add: How about a nice chart (http://www.publicpolicyforum.org/Matrix.htm), that summarizes the results of several studies on early childhood education?
Quote from: nathanm on June 09, 2010, 02:05:27 PM
Here is a link to but one of the many studies that show that early childhood education has lasting effects: http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/
Conan, you should know by now that when I say "studies have shown" something, there are indeed studies that show what I'm claiming they do.
I don't have a study at hand to cite, but I've seen several that show that educational programs in prison also reduce recidivism rates, which have been increasing since we've gone to the "bore them to death" method of punishment we use now. Yes, there are plenty of folks such things don't get through to, but is that a good reason to abandon those who can be helped?
I would actually accept it as common sense that educational programs would have more of a positive outcome on an inmate than spending the day as someones B!tch. :-*
Quote from: Gaspar on June 09, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
I would actually accept it as common sense that educational programs would have more of a positive outcome on an inmate than spending the day as someones B!tch. :-*
Sometimes common sense seems not to be so common.