Anyone think this will have a negative effect on the Brady? Sure would hate to see it close. Great place to see a show.
Sneak Peek At New Concert Hall At Catoosa's Hard Rock Casino
CATOOSA, OK -- The News On 6 got a sneak peek inside the final venue going up at Catoosa's Hard Rock Casino.
Crews are working on the $20 million concert hall that's being called The Joint.
It will seat 2,700, making it just a little larger than the Brady Theater.
Managers are excited to bring concerts they say will put the "rock" in Hard Rock.
"You can't have Hard Rock without music and so we feel like it is very critical to the success of the property to have a state-of-the-art event center," said David Stewart, Cherokee Entertainment CEO.
In addition to musical acts, The Joint will host boxing, MMA and guest lecturers when it opens this fall.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12424149
Quote from: bmuscotty on May 05, 2010, 11:15:35 AM
Anyone think this will have a negative effect on the Brady? Sure would hate to see it close. Great place to see a show.
Sneak Peek At New Concert Hall At Catoosa's Hard Rock Casino
CATOOSA, OK -- The News On 6 got a sneak peek inside the final venue going up at Catoosa's Hard Rock Casino.
Crews are working on the $20 million concert hall that's being called The Joint.
It will seat 2,700, making it just a little larger than the Brady Theater.
Managers are excited to bring concerts they say will put the "rock" in Hard Rock.
"You can't have Hard Rock without music and so we feel like it is very critical to the success of the property to have a state-of-the-art event center," said David Stewart, Cherokee Entertainment CEO.
In addition to musical acts, The Joint will host boxing, MMA and guest lecturers when it opens this fall.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12424149
As a casual observer, the acts which are playing the casino circuit aren't the same ones playing the Brady, but if Hard Rock is willing to pony up more money per show, I suppose it's possible they could take some acts away from there. There are some artists who still will choose a venue based on it being a better vibe assuming all else is equal.
If OSU ever develops a fine arts/theatre program at its downtown campus, something that I think would do well and be much better suited here than Stillwater, the Brady would make a great 'home' for that. In addition to still hosting touring concerts of course, but maybe some more stage 'theatre' as well serving as a complement to the PAC downtown.
The hard thing about Hard Rock -- and this goes for the casino, the convention space, the hotel, and the golf course -- is that it's so far away from any other action. There's just nothing else around it, and it's a long, construction-ridden drive to get to where the other stuff actually is. It's hard to sell against that, and really, as Conan says, puts a pretty fine point on the kinds of acts that find that hospitable and those that don't. All of which is to say, the venue that they're building is going to a certain kind of thing that appeals to a certain kind of act, and not necessarily the ones that go to the Brady. I'd be surprised if they compete directly for the same acts.
Quote from: we vs us on May 05, 2010, 01:46:29 PM
The hard thing about Hard Rock -- and this goes for the casino, the convention space, the hotel, and the golf course -- is that it's so far away from any other action. There's just nothing else around it, and it's a long, construction-ridden drive to get to where the other stuff actually is. It's hard to sell against that, and really, as Conan says, puts a pretty fine point on the kinds of acts that find that hospitable and those that don't. All of which is to say, the venue that they're building is going to a certain kind of thing that appeals to a certain kind of act, and not necessarily the ones that go to the Brady. I'd be surprised if they compete directly for the same acts.
If anything, I'd guess these would be acts who might have considered playing at the Spank out in Bixby. Pulling up their web site though, doesn't really look like any competition, only three events between now and Aug. 14 and no concerts, sounds like someone over-estimated the need for more convention/exhibition/concert space out south. Yikes:
http://www.spiritbankeventcenter.com/events.asp?id=2
Quote from: we vs us on May 05, 2010, 01:46:29 PM
The hard thing about Hard Rock -- and this goes for the casino, the convention space, the hotel, and the golf course -- is that it's so far away from any other action. There's just nothing else around it, and it's a long, construction-ridden drive to get to where the other stuff actually is. It's hard to sell against that, and really, as Conan says, puts a pretty fine point on the kinds of acts that find that hospitable and those that don't. All of which is to say, the venue that they're building is going to a certain kind of thing that appeals to a certain kind of act, and not necessarily the ones that go to the Brady. I'd be surprised if they compete directly for the same acts.
it probably will compete more with the "Osage Events Center" for acts.
There's no contest.
The Brady beats the The Joint pants down.
http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/ (http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/)
This is the Hard Rock Las Vegas concert listings. Not necessarily typical Brady concerts.
Quote from: joiei on May 05, 2010, 02:37:03 PM
http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/ (http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/)
This is the Hard Rock Las Vegas concert listings. Not necessarily typical Brady concerts.
Wow. Those are some good acts. I think they may have taken some from Cain's (Collective Soul, Dropkick Murphys, Primus, etc).
edit: Ha. Wow. Sorry, apparently I skipped over the "Las Vegas" part of the post. Oops.
Quote from: joiei on May 05, 2010, 02:37:03 PM
http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/ (http://www.hardrockhotel.com/las-vegas/concerts/)
This is the Hard Rock Las Vegas concert listings. Not necessarily typical Brady concerts.
I looked at this one and the Hard Rock in Biloxi, and some of the ones in Florida and I think what you will see is a rotation of acts from HR's east and west of Tulsa.
Biloxi:http://www.hardrockbiloxi.com/entertainment/hard-rock-live (http://www.hardrockbiloxi.com/entertainment/hard-rock-live)
Hollywood Fla.:http://www.hardrocklivehollywoodfl.com/events.php (http://www.hardrocklivehollywoodfl.com/events.php)
As I look up some of the acts tour dates they all seem to be hitting alot of the casinos around the country. Indian Casinos, the Borscht Belt Tour of the new millenium.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 05, 2010, 11:28:24 AM
As a casual observer, the acts which are playing the casino circuit aren't the same ones playing the Brady, but if Hard Rock is willing to pony up more money per show, I suppose it's possible they could take some acts away from there. There are some artists who still will choose a venue based on it being a better vibe assuming all else is equal.
This is what I believe. I think the Brady type acts will prefer the Brady over an overcommercialized Hard Rock Venue way out of town. I also think the Hard Rock will get more country acts that don't generally go to the Brady. I think there is plenty of room in this town for both venues.
I think it will hurt The Brady for one simply reason - money. The Hard Rock and Million Dollar Elm can use bigger payouts to draw bands that otherwise might paly The Brady because the concerts are not used to generate a profit so much as a draw to get people into the casinos - where the tribes make the real money. The Hard Rock also has some powerful branding that will help it draw bands. Finally, it is one more venue chasing the limited concert going dollars available in the Tulsa market.
Quote from: DTowner on May 06, 2010, 11:30:56 AM
I think it will hurt The Brady the area's sales tax base for one simply reason - money. The Hard Rock and Million Dollar Elm can use bigger payouts to draw bands that otherwise might paly The Brady because the concerts are not used to generate a profit so much as a draw to get people into the casinos - where the tribes make the real money. The Hard Rock also has some powerful branding that will help it draw bands. Finally, it is one more venue chasing the limited concert going dollars available in the Tulsa market.
Yet one more vacuum for Tulsa sales tax. Tax free meals, tax free craptastic Hard Rock merchandise, and I'm assuming tax free tickets. Of course everyone will remember to remit their use tax on the Hard Rock merchandise, yes? I know I complain a lot about the casinos, but I think they are bad neighbors.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 06, 2010, 11:56:15 AM
I know I complain a lot about the casinos, but I think they are bad neighbors.
A case can definitely be made for that, though in this case I really think the damage will be slight. In my experience, Tulsa is used to thinking of itself as a small and isolated market . . . and that each new entrant will ONLY carve up what exists, rather than also bring in new things from outside and expand possible business. I think it will be both, rather than simply the former.
Quote from: we vs us on May 06, 2010, 01:21:19 PM
A case can definitely be made for that, though in this case I really think the damage will be slight. In my experience, Tulsa is used to thinking of itself as a small and isolated market . . . and that each new entrant will ONLY carve up what exists, rather than also bring in new things from outside and expand possible business. I think it will be both, rather than simply the former.
The problem as I see it though is Hard Rock is creating a resort where you go to spend your weekend gambling, golfing, shoppping, drinking, seeing live shows with the idea of keeping you on the property as much as possible. I can see some merit to the idea it might draw people from outside the area like Joplin or Fayetteville who might not otherwise have been drawn to the area for a visit and they might drop some cash off property. When citizens of Tulsa dump their discretionary income at the casino, it's less money they have to spend on taxable consumables which helps keep the city and county coffers solvent. They do a huge marketing push in the immediate Tulsa metro.
Let's say they sell 2000 tickets for an act which might have played at the Brady or 4000 tix for a show which could have booked at the convention center. I believe sales tax is collected on tickets at Tulsa's main venues and sales tax is also collected on merchandise, food, and beverage sales. There's thousands of dollars the city and county just missed out on.
I realize this is all perfectly legal, but it's frustrating to see, especially in times where we have budget shortfalls affecting public safety and infrastructure and our city is incredibly impotent in becoming less dependent on sales tax.
I've beeen thinking about this and after looking at some of the other casinos around the country and the acts they have coming up, I think alot of acts and performers are willing to do the casion route because the will probably get paid the same amount if it's SRO or half house in sales, because the casinos can cover it with the revenue from the games and food and beverage sales. Where as with the Brady and other venues, the performer will get paid regardless of what they take in gate and food and beverage and hope that it's enough to cover all of the expensess and make some profit out of it. And unless Oklahoma has some sort of shared revenue agreement with the tribes very little that goes in comes back.
But wouldn't Las Vegas, Hollywood and Biloxi be considered more vacation destinations? Is Tulsa? Not really. As for people coming here from places like Joplin, the have casinos in Miami that draw some pretty good names to. They wouldn't have to drive down here unless is someone they really want to see and is not booked there. Some of the casinos in and around Oklahoma City draw good names from all types of music. Think of all the casinos in the state that have concert halls. Over saturate the market? They may end up cutting their own necks. Loss of taxes for the city and cutting in on the Brady's bottom dollar sucks. Think to about some of the acts that have played Million Dollar Elm. Like Styx. They were there last year I think. Wouldn't they have done well at the Brady?
Quote from: bmuscotty on May 06, 2010, 02:08:08 PM
But wouldn't Las Vegas, Hollywood and Biloxi be considered more vacation destinations? Is Tulsa? Not really. As for people coming here from places like Joplin, the have casinos in Miami that draw some pretty good names to. They wouldn't have to drive down here unless is someone they really want to see and is not booked there. Some of the casinos in and around Oklahoma City draw good names from all types of music. Think of all the casinos in the state that have concert halls. Over saturate the market? They may end up cutting their own necks. Loss of taxes for the city and cutting in on the Brady's bottom dollar sucks. Think to about some of the acts that have played Million Dollar Elm. Like Styx. They were there last year I think. Wouldn't they have done well at the Brady?
Las Vegas definitely a vacation spot. Biloxi MS yeah I can see that, you're not far from New Orleans, Mobile, Gulf Port, and there is an Air Force Base there, and it is on the water. Hollywood Fla? It's between Ft. Lauderdale and Miami, and a large retirement area for the northeast, maybe a destination if you're already on vacation in the area. But other than Vegas they're not a first pick destination. Will the HR Tulsa draw people? Yes it will draw on the HR name and the fact they have the ability to run acts through on short order so there is something new every weekend. But I'm sure there are acts that will still go to The Brady, Cains and Spirit(maybe Spirit) I think it's going to change where people will go see performers, but I don't think it will kill of The Brady. Like I said HR has the ability to shuffle through all of it's locations different acts.
The next big area I have found that is embracing Indian Casinos is upstate New York in the Catskills area. They are starting to build Racinos, horse track/casino/resort on the sites of the old Jewish resorts, and some of them will also offer snow skiing using the old slopes built by the former resorts. I will look for some more info to include on this.
http://500nations.com/New_York_Casinos.asp (http://500nations.com/New_York_Casinos.asp)
http://devsoc.cals.cornell.edu/cals/devsoc/outreach/cardi/publications/upload/01-2009-RPB.pdf (http://devsoc.cals.cornell.edu/cals/devsoc/outreach/cardi/publications/upload/01-2009-RPB.pdf)
The Hard Rock is the only local casino that is really positioning itself as a regional destination location, with the connected hotel, new events center and adjacent golf course. I hear they draw a lot of visitors from Kansas, Missouiri and Arkansas. However, I suspect a majority of the casino business is still being drawn from the local market. The concerts would seem to draw mostly local audiences, although that may depend on the show itself.
Under compacts with Oklahoma, the casinos share a small portion of revenue with the state only on class III games. Most of the machines are class II and Oklahoma gets no revenue share from them. Everything else at the casino (food/beverage/hotels/event tickets/merchandise, etc.) cannot be taxed by the state/county/city.
As long as the Brady management can sell the venue to the booking agents, it will be no problem. I've seen concerts in dozens of venues all over the country, and the Brady is still one of the best theaters to see a show. There's not a bad seat in the room, and the acoustics are fantastic. Many musicians will prefer an old mainstay with a great sounding room over a glitz and glamor modern Casino theater.
The Brady will live on. I usually see 8-10 concerts per year in OK, TX, MO, and/or AR, and have been doing hat for over 10 years. There are few rooms that compare to the Brady.
All;
You are missing the big picture. The casino is a complete destination package. Look at Riverwind casino in Norman, OK for a blueprint of what is going to happen here. They have a 1500 seat concert hall and get acts like the following list. Just think what 2800 seats would do?
Willie Nelson
Moe Bandy
Boys II Men
Howie Mandel
Reba
Train
Lyle Lovett
The Temptations
Ronnie Milsap
REO Speedwagon
Gary Allan
These are not all just little tiny acts. Very lucrative events to an area, I would think.
Second thing this proves is the lie about how Tulsa couldn't possibly get big name events without a couple hundred million arena. The Casiono Dudes are doing it all the time. Guess 20 million is just fine. Hmm....wonder what it would have cost to refurbish the existing civic center to get bring it up to world class??
Brady is great!! Could use paint.
I saw a story on the construction of this place and a lot of their seating was in suites and party areas. This place is half club/half theater and will not directly compete with the brady. It is more a place to get hammered with friends while bands from the state fair circuit play on.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 06, 2010, 10:00:39 PM
All;
You are missing the big picture. The casino is a complete destination package. Look at Riverwind casino in Norman, OK for a blueprint of what is going to happen here. They have a 1500 seat concert hall and get acts like the following list. Just think what 2800 seats would do?
Willie Nelson
Moe Bandy
Boys II Men
Howie Mandel
Reba
Train
Lyle Lovett
The Temptations
Ronnie Milsap
REO Speedwagon
Gary Allan
These are not all just little tiny acts. Very lucrative events to an area, I would think.
Second thing this proves is the lie about how Tulsa couldn't possibly get big name events without a couple hundred million arena. The Casiono Dudes are doing it all the time. Guess 20 million is just fine. Hmm....wonder what it would have cost to refurbish the existing civic center to get bring it up to world class??
Brady is great!! Could use paint.
Willie DID play the arena; he opened for Beck, IIRC.
And these guys may have been A-listers 20 years ago, but fame is fleeting. Can't market these acts to the large arenas now. And some don't even like to play in them.
So when Osage Hills gets Paul McCartney or the Eagles to play in the 2800 seat arena, you call me.
You BOK naysayers crack me up. It's been a profit maker for two straight years (unheard for public buildings like this). People hate admitting they were wrong, even when it's for the good of the community.
Willie opened for Dave Matthews last Oct. 2. Prior to that he played to about 800 to 1000 people at the Cain's the previous November with Billy Bob Thornton (Yes, THAT Billy Bob Thornton). Great show at the Cain's. He sucked at BOK.
None of the acts Heir listed are bread and butter Brady acts with the possible exception of Train and Lyle Lovett, though they might be able to sell enough seats for the convention center. They would never be able to pack the BOK as headliners.
I found this info
QuoteFair shows and Casino shows are typically called "soft ticket" concerts. This means the ticket sales of the event are not the sole or main stream of revenue for the event.
A typical show must sell X many tickets to cover all expenses, mostly the artist fee. However casino and fair events have many sponsors or ulterior means to pay for the event. Therefore, these artists that play this circuit are way overpaid...
Devo for $50k anyone?
I might be way off, but I'll take a stab at it and say $25k. Bands that frequent that circuit might play 8-10 in a summer/fall season, or regulars (like ASIA, BÖC, etc) might make tours out of casinos, fairs, private and corporate events, and radio festivals.
here http://ask.metafilter.com/69349/How-much-do-the-musical-acts-make-on-the-county-fair-circuit (http://ask.metafilter.com/69349/How-much-do-the-musical-acts-make-on-the-county-fair-circuit)
Saw this listing on Pollstar the other day. Wonder if this is the first act to play The Joint?
Thu 09/30/10 Doobie Brothers Hard Rock Hotel & Casino Tulsa (Catoosa)
Lyle Lovett and his big band are playing the PAC in July...Chapman Music Hall has about 2,300 seats...about 500 less than Brady. :(
Love the Brady and would see a show there over going to Claremore for a 'glitterfied' casino experience.
Ironically to this conversation, the owner of the Brady is the keyboardist for "Bradio" aka "Brady St. Orchestra" which plays at the River Spirit Casino on a somewhat frequent basis. I've gone to see them there a couple of times, but I just can't handle the smoke so I won't be going back.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 24, 2010, 10:43:13 AM
Ironically to this conversation, the owner of the Brady is the keyboardist for "Bradio" aka "Brady St. Orchestra" which plays at the River Spirit Casino on a somewhat frequent basis. I've gone to see them there a couple of times, but I just can't handle the smoke so I won't be going back.
It sounds as though you may be acquainted with the fellow that owns Brady..?
Are there still plans for a remodel that would construct the portion left out of the original blueprints?
I have heard this fellow has quite the art collection tucked away in the basement of the Brady.
Not so much in value$$ but in the subject matter.
Quote from: Rico on June 24, 2010, 01:30:39 PM
It sounds as though you may be acquainted with the fellow that owns Brady..?
Are there still plans for a remodel that would construct the portion left out of the original blueprints?
I have heard this fellow has quite the art collection tucked away in the basement of the Brady.
Not so much in value$$ but in the subject matter.
We bike together and my company overhauled the heating system in the basement a year or so back. Actually, I've never seen an art collection in the basement proper, but I'm sure he's managed to cull a pretty good stock of memorabilia over the years. I'm not aware of any additional expansion plans but I will ask. You'd be amazed at the damage left behind when the people he leased the place out to flaked out so that took a fair amount of time and money to fix.
Oh, I also noticed Bradio is playing at Summer's 5th Night tonight at Utica Square, should be a fun show.
The portion of the remodel I was talking about was in the original remodel
announcement.
I was hoping it had just been put on hold. It was discussed some on this forum.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=6021.0
Quote from: Rico on June 24, 2010, 02:13:03 PM
The portion of the remodel I was talking about was in the original remodel
announcement.
I was hoping it had just been put on hold. It was discussed some on this forum.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=6021.0
That was all with the new "owners" of the Brady. It was a lease/purchase as I recall and they defaulted. After the default it reverted back to the owner who has had it since the mid/late '70's and who continues to own it now. FAIK plans to sell it or otherwise lease it out don't exist. We are supposed to get out for some long rides next week, I'll ask more then about any further renovations he may be planning, but I can say with pretty good confidence that the $15mm renovation fell off the table when Alter's group defaulted.
There are no plans for additional renovation at this time at the Brady. I asked him about it last night and he said he'd love to do the second balcony addition, but it's hard to justify $20mm in improvements with the business model for a 2800 seat hall. If they do 10 sell-outs a year, those shows will average a $10 to $20K profit. Do the math, it would take forever to justify a pay-back. With the added competition from other venues, we can expect to see perhaps 10 to 15 shows a year at the Brady. He said the Hard Rock is booking a lot of country acts which does not take away from the Brady, but classic rock shows would be somewhat of a competition.
Much as we all speculated, a Casino doesn't have to make a profit on a concert, they will make it back on food & beverage and gambling.
The next two shows are Weird Al and Robert Plant. Plant should be awesome in that hall.
I'm looking forward to Weird Al. It will be a reunion of sorts. I saw him twice in 1988 in Tulsa when he was here filming "UHF" - once in the buffet line at Mondo's and once on the patio at SRO a/k/a the room of doom.
Quote from: DTowner on June 30, 2010, 03:06:32 PM
I'm looking forward to Weird Al. It will be a reunion of sorts. I saw him twice in 1988 in Tulsa when he was here filming "UHF" - once in the buffet line at Mondo's and once on the patio at SRO a/k/a the room of doom.
Mondo's....yum. Best Chicken Parmesan on the planet.
QuoteActually, I've never seen an art collection in the basement proper, but I'm sure he's managed to cull a pretty good stock of memorabilia over the years.
To bad he doesn't put some of that stuff on display somewhere. Anyone know of a website or anything that deals with Oklahoma music scene like concerts? I've heard that some of the shows put on back in the 80's at like the Tulsa Speedway and such were pretty wild. I was at a trade show a while back at the Convention Center where they had a booth with some of the concert posters from shows that were put on there. Interesting stuff.
QuoteI saw him twice in 1988 in Tulsa when he was here filming "UHF" - once in the buffet line at Mondo's and once on the patio at SRO a/k/a the room of doom.
I saw him at Reggaefest when it was at Boulder Park.
Quote from: bmuscotty on July 01, 2010, 11:24:06 AM
To bad he doesn't put some of that stuff on display somewhere. Anyone know of a website or anything that deals with Oklahoma music scene like concerts? I've heard that some of the shows put on back in the 80's at like the Tulsa Speedway and such were pretty wild. I was at a trade show a while back at the Convention Center where they had a booth with some of the concert posters from shows that were put on there. Interesting stuff.
I saw him at Reggaefest when it was at Boulder Park.
I don't recall any concerts at the speedway in the '80's but, IIRC, they did have the Willie Nelson picnic 4th of July weekend in 1977 which was apparently pretty wild. I do believe that was the main reason there were no more concerts at the speedway.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 01, 2010, 11:55:12 AM
I don't recall any concerts at the speedway in the '80's but, IIRC, they did have the Willie Nelson picnic 4th of July weekend in 1977 which was apparently pretty wild. I do believe that was the main reason there were no more concerts at the speedway.
You are correct. Willie was the last concert at the speedway. I was at the Peter Frampton one that was in 1976.
Doobie Brothers first act of new Hard Rock venue
The Doobie Brothers will be the opening act
http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=269&articleid=20100703_269_D1_TeDoir499959
I was by the speedway last week. Should be renamed weedway. Sad.
So did anyone check out the Joint when it opened last Thursday? I didn't go but I've seen The Doobie Brothers a few times in concert. Always put on a good show. And thoughts or remarks on the new venue?