http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12343638 (http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12343638)
Waste of Turnpike bond money. We don't need that loop, the terminus at the north end is under-developed and served more than adequately now unless we build more casinos up that way to suck more sales tax dollars out of the city.
FAIL
I know plenty in north and West Tulsa who disagree with you. NW Tulsa could likely be the next big boom in housing development.
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 22, 2010, 10:19:27 AM
I know plenty in north and West Tulsa who disagree with you. NW Tulsa could likely be the next big boom in housing development.
This isn't another Turner and Henderson "'My people' are under-served" thing, is it? ;)
If I'm reading the map correctly, the planned route is within three miles to the west of existing highways used for that commute. Other than accidents during peak commute times, this is not a congested route with the existing roads. But if people want it as a pay-as-you-go road, wonderful. I suspect other Turnpikes will wind up subsidising the cost though.
Don't we have enough turnpikes around Tulsa already?
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 22, 2010, 10:19:27 AM
I know plenty in north and West Tulsa who disagree with you. NW Tulsa could likely be the next big boom in housing development.
Agreed. Not sure where the Tulsa fenceline ends and the Skiatook fenceline begins though. Like to find a good map showing that.
The northwest portion of the loop is entirely within Tulsa city limits except for the interchange with 412 which is in Sand Springs. There is already some development around Apache west of the LL Tisdale and there is a 860 acre project called Northwest Passage that includes a new school which is in the initial development phase. Construction of the highway will surely accelerate that, as will the new school.
(http://images.loopnet.com/xnet/mainsite/attachments/viewImage.aspx?FileGuid=BCE164AE-C8D2-4B16-BD77-309D371ABE3E&Extension=jpg&Width=631&Height=421)
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/15703876/Gilcrease-Expressway-L-L-Tisdale-Expressway-Tulsa-OK/ (http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/15703876/Gilcrease-Expressway-L-L-Tisdale-Expressway-Tulsa-OK/)
I imagine more housing developments will be built along it once it's complete similar to what happened with the Creek Tpke. in the 90's and the Creek South Loop this past decade.
It's imporant for the northwest around the loop to become a small planning area so the new developments aren't just your typical suburban subdivisions. Not many cities have the opportunity to have several square miles of basically a blank slate development-wise just outside the downtown core. This is a great opportunity for Tulsa and if it takes a new highway to get things started, well I'm all for it. It is clearly shown in PlaniTulsa's comprehensive plan vision:
(http://planitulsa.org/files/visionmap-1000px_0.jpg)
I like it. It's a good counterweight to the continued sprawl to the south and east. Even if the infrastructure sits there for awhile without a ton of development, at least it's there to build on in the future.
Also: some excellent views of downtown!
Quote from: we vs us on April 22, 2010, 02:29:37 PM
Also: some excellent views of downtown!
Especially on the hill along Apache west of LL Tisdale and in the wooded hills just west of where the highway will be, currently 57th W. Ave. I'm surprised there's not more houses built in the hills on the far eastside of Sand Springs and far westside of Tulsa north of the river, the views are really amazing along old Hwy. 97 and where Edison turns into Old North Rd.
The views are great. I've heard the building in those areas is challenging. More than average builders can handle. To compare the area with the Creek Turnpike development is not really so accurate either. Jenks, South Tulsa, Bixby, BA all have more upside than Sand Springs. Great views only go so far...
I was not happy to hear it would be a toll road.
Quote from: waterboy on April 22, 2010, 02:44:40 PM
I was not happy to hear it would be a toll road.
It seems like it ought to be doable as a free road. I guess if you want to look at the bright side, at least it'll get done quickly as a toll road.
Wish it were done as a free road as has been the plan for, what, 30 years?
I also have a question about the OTA, as I haven't been around that long. Is the OTA a private organization or part of the State government?
Quote from: SXSW on April 22, 2010, 02:38:22 PM
Especially on the hill along Apache west of LL Tisdale and in the wooded hills just west of where the highway will be, currently 57th W. Ave. I'm surprised there's not more houses built in the hills on the far eastside of Sand Springs and far westside of Tulsa north of the river, the views are really amazing along old Hwy. 97 and where Edison turns into Old North Rd.
There's a very good reason for it: Peace & quiet within 10 minutes of downtown. /snark
A friend of mine is building on property he's owned for years off of 97 just north of the neighborhood which is a right turn at the top of Old North, the engineering is taking much longer than anticipated.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 22, 2010, 03:16:35 PM
There's a very good reason for it: Peace & quiet within 10 minutes of downtown.
I imagine the schools have a lot to do with it. Sand Springs district is not as good as Jenks, Union, BA. And the TPS schools in the northwest are not good either. Although Central HS is not bad and with its arts magnet focus and competitive athletic teams it has the potential to be similar to Booker T. Of course you build one new elem. school for these new subdivisions and that can change quickly.
In Denver they redeveloped the old Stapleton airport into a mixed-use community with new housing just a few miles east of downtown. Of course the old airport was adjacent to a lower income/higher crime neighborhood and within DPS, quite possibly a worse district than TPS. Well they built new schools in Stapleton for their residents and it's now one of the most desirable places to live in Denver, within DPS and surrounded by bad neighborhoods. I think for the NW to really grow it needs the highway, first, and then TPS and Sand Springs need to step it up with better schools to serve the influx of new residents and compete with Jenks, BA, Bixby, and Owasso.
I realize I'm cutting against the grain here, but I honestly can't see how having to drive a few additional miles to access the highway is preventing development now, especially at the northern and southern tapers of it.
Re-paving the main arteries out there would be a better start IMO. I was amazed at how much the asphalt degraded over the winter, there are some serious axle breakers. Kudos on the new pavement north on 57th west but there's lots more work to be done.
Isn't the highway needed to move the multitude of tourists who will flock to the giant barely clothed Native American statue to be built in the area?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 22, 2010, 04:05:23 PM
I realize I'm cutting against the grain here, but I honestly can't see how having to drive a few additional miles to access the highway is preventing development now, especially at the northern and southern tapers of it.
I'm thinking the same thing. But if there were some benefit to be had, making it a toll road diminishes it significantly. The Creek Turnpike works because it is taking people of an affluent area (aka unhindered by tolls, mostly slapping a pikepass on the sheild and not concerning themselves with financial ramifications) to work and back to their sprawl neighborhoods. This is going to be a road connecting West Tulsa with North Tulsa. Who is this going to serve? The one guy who lives at the Overlook Apts. and works at the Osage Casino?
A turnpike exit doesn't spur the kinds of retail development that a free road highway intersection does. I'm not trying to get on and off a toll road multiple times to make impulse purchases.
Another thing neither the Creek nor this turnpike has/will accomplish(ed) is getting cars and trucks off of our clogged I-44 corridor. The Creek just goes WAY out of the way for people to think it would save them time, and this new turnpike isn't much better as far as going WAY off course.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 22, 2010, 04:05:23 PM
I realize I'm cutting against the grain here, but I honestly can't see how having to drive a few additional miles to access the highway is preventing development now, especially at the northern and southern tapers of it.
Re-paving the main arteries out there would be a better start IMO. I was amazed at how much the asphalt degraded over the winter, there are some serious axle breakers. Kudos on the new pavement north on 57th west but there's lots more work to be done.
Zipping past 36th S N and Cincinnati on a highway at 70 mph with little Jack and Jill in the back seat is very different from sitting at the intersection waiting on the light to change to the average suburban Soccer mom.
Quote from: swake on April 22, 2010, 04:39:52 PM
Zipping past 36th S N and Cincinnati on a highway at 70 mph with little Jack and Jill in the back seat is very different from sitting at the intersection waiting on the light to change to the average suburban Soccer mom.
Careful Swake, the resident TNF white apologist will start calling you a racist.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 22, 2010, 04:05:23 PM
I realize I'm cutting against the grain here, but I honestly can't see how having to drive a few additional miles to access the highway is preventing development now, especially at the northern and southern tapers of it.
Re-paving the main arteries out there would be a better start IMO. I was amazed at how much the asphalt degraded over the winter, there are some serious axle breakers. Kudos on the new pavement north on 57th west but there's lots more work to be done.
For my father-in-law, who lives in West Tulsa, this would cut his drive time to/from work as well as his trips to the airport (frequent traveler) in half. This would also give all the industries on Avery drive almost direct access to 412 rather than taking them east and then through a series of clunky intersections at southwest boulevard that are not designed for the level of industrial traffic they are getting.
Yeah, like that's going to increase commercial/residential development around the area. Nothing like a constant parade of tractor trailers carrying petroleum products and aggregate through an area to boost its desirability. It would be better to simply upgrade the SW interchange wouldn't it?
I see some usefulness for the stretch but not enough. Apparently my view has been shared with highway powers the past few decades.
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 23, 2010, 06:51:53 AM
For my father-in-law, who lives in West Tulsa, this would cut his drive time to/from work as well as his trips to the airport (frequent traveler) in half. This would also give all the industries on Avery drive almost direct access to 412 rather than taking them east and then through a series of clunky intersections at southwest boulevard that are not designed for the level of industrial traffic they are getting.
There's something to be said for planning ahead with infrastructure for future growth, something Tulsa has never done well. We've always played catch up on widening and improving intersections. Everything south of 51st St. and west of Memorial is a very good example of this. OKC had four lane roads in the northern area before there was heavy residential and retail development.
That said, I really don't see this being a high use corridor (and that's what they said about the Creek T'Pike when it was finally starting to get moving, and it was under-utilized for some time) any time soon. But if people are willing to do this as a pay-as-you-go road and it's not going to take away from other county and city road repairs and improvements, fine. I hope it can self-sustain and we don't have to cannibalize tolls on other toll roads thereby putting burden on people who don't use it.
I think people are underestimating the potential of northwest Tulsa. The right developments and improvements to the schools could really make this area boom. In any case this creates another river crossing between 244 and 97 which is needed. The possibilities of creating a bike/jogging trail in the right-of-way like they have done with the Creek Turnpike and now the I-44 widening are interesting.
I agree, that area is ready to explode with development. The perception of freeway access influences a lot of people. Unless there's a radical shift away from the private-commute-to-work paradigm, the freeway is needed. Too bad they want it as a toll road.
A study is underway to determine feasibility of the toll road. While I think this is good for developing northwest Tulsa/east Sand Springs, I'm most excited about the bike/jogging trail that would be included in the right of way, similar to what they did with the Creek Turnpike. Better access to the Botanical Gardens is also a plus.
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/13438930_BG1.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101104_16_A13_OKLAHO658677 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101104_16_A13_OKLAHO658677)
SXSW, there's a far better ride out 52nd W. Ave to Skiatook Lake. ;)
One fun route is taking Edison/Old North up to HWY 97, go north to the entrance of Zink Ranch on Rock School Road, then back to 52nd W. and back south to Edison via Apache and 33rd W. Lots of hills, you really feel like you accomplished something when you are done.
Did you ever go ride with the Weds. night ride group at Riverwest Festival Park this year?
Quote from: Conan71 on November 04, 2010, 09:09:16 AM
Did you ever go ride with the Weds. night ride group at Riverwest Festival Park this year?
No, still trying to get in better shape first. Hopefully in the spring.
The Gilcrease trail would avoid most of the bigger hills, which would be just to the west.
Quote from: SXSW on November 04, 2010, 10:22:42 AM
The Gilcrease trail would avoid most of the bigger hills, which would be just to the west.
But what's the point in that? ;)
Did you notice they have mowed the top off the hill on Apache just east of 33 west? They've excavated large piles of dirt off it and moved the dirt west on Apache and up to the corner of 41st west and which ever road Post Oak is on.
The trail between Riverside and NSU offers some great training hills. Riding that early in the year really improved my climbing this year.
Quote from: SXSW on November 04, 2010, 08:54:21 AM
A study is underway to determine feasibility of the toll road. While I think this is good for developing northwest Tulsa/east Sand Springs, I'm most excited about the bike/jogging trail that would be included in the right of way, similar to what they did with the Creek Turnpike. Better access to the Botanical Gardens is also a plus.
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/13438930_BG1.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101104_16_A13_OKLAHO658677 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20101104_16_A13_OKLAHO658677)
What is all the work they are doing over there right now for?
I thought and it looks like they are already working on extending Gilcrease west past the Tisdale.
Now that I think about it, there could be a pretty fun hill to drive down at 100mph where the proposed highway goes through BerryHill. I'd pay the 75 cents for that. The roads there now aren't very conducive for both high speeds and remaining alive.
Quote from: Weatherdemon on November 04, 2010, 02:32:00 PM
What is all the work they are doing over there right now for?
I thought and it looks like they are already working on extending Gilcrease west past the Tisdale.
That loop has been planned for what, 20 or 30 years? They've done some clearing over the years, and put in that weird leg from 51st to 41st. If the OTA is going to slap a toll on that, maybe they could cut the city a check for all of the money spent already? The current sections of the Gilcrease are City of Tulsa, not ODOT work, as it is not a State/US/Interstate numbered highway, correct?