http://krmg.com/liveweb/mobile/feeds/display.html?cat_id=322&guid=http://krmg.com/localnews/2010/03/snyder-family-offering-the-cit.html
Snyder family wants to turn it into a 200 hotel and the old counsel chambers into a restaurant. $30mil renovation with no public money or stupid requests (move the bus station).
Sell sell sell!
/hope tda doesn't get involved and I hope they didn't screw us on the other development by moving too slow
I'm surprised they're keeping it. Hope the renovations mean a looks upgrade to the buildings and the plaza.
I believe maintenance and upkeep is close to a million a year, so sell this and the city budget will miraculously look better.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on March 11, 2010, 07:24:11 AM
/hope tda doesn't get involved and I hope they didn't screw us on the other development by moving too slow
Keep hoping:
Quote
Bunney said the city could make the sale through two processes — a direct sale, which would require sealed bids, or by deeding the property to a city authority, such as the Tulsa Industrial Authority or the Tulsa Development Authority, to negotiate the sale.
He said he would push for using an authority because it could put together a contract to ensure that the developer completes the plan.
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100311_11_A1_Thecit704743
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
I like these TulsaWorld comment section postings...
"How can the city do this? I would think the city does not actually own these buildings.
Reeks of Kathy Taylor, et al. Remember she was going to sell off Paige Belcher golf course."
"There goes all the courthouse parking. . . Where do they expect people who have business at the courthouse to park?"
"a million bucks....wow. what was it assessed at? That sounds pretty low. At least families of criminals will have a place to stay close to their family in jail. and with the city library as a nearby major attraction, out of town visitors will get a real taste of tulsa firsthand when the first panhandler approaches them."
Keep TDA as far from this as possible. As far as the offer, I think it's appropriate considering the amount of re-hab/re-purposing required and what it would mean to have 200 more hotel rooms in downtown. Unload the damn thing.
I'll be interested to see their plans but I like that they are renovating instead of tearing down. Maybe the plaza and its fountains can be restored as well. The Civic Center is a good example of mid-century modern that I would hate to see demolished.
One argument against redeveloping the City Hall property has been where will the convention center expand when it needs more space one of these days? Well with a potential hotel at City Hall maybe the current library can be used for more convention center space and a new library built somewhere else downtown. That way you don't have to demolish anything just fix what we already have.
Pic from moderntulsa.net, big advocates for preserving the Civic Center
(http://www.moderntulsa.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/Tulsa-Architecture.jpg)
Library plans to move anyway, but it is on the opposite side of the convention center from the city hall building. The convention center can expand west if it needs to. Tearing down the post office would give some possible additional space, although I'm hope for more of a promenade that a building once it goes. Another option would be to expand the plaza over 4th with skybridges over 3rd to the BOK Center and over frisco to the convention center parkade.
This was exciting news around the watercooler here today. The big question: why are people piddling around with small hotels? More rooms are more rooms, granted, but putting together a larger convention solution piecemeal makes selling to groups that want a one-stop shop very difficult. ie. if the AMA wants to house all 4000 of their attendees in the hotel where they're holding their convention, it ain't happening downtown. It'd still take as many as three hotels to do the job.
Well, Tulsa has about as much shot at hosting the AMA as we do the Summer Olympics.... c'mon guys, think more about local, state, and regional... not national...
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 11, 2010, 10:01:53 AM
Library plans to move anyway, but it is on the opposite side of the convention center from the city hall building. The convention center can expand west if it needs to. Tearing down the post office would give some possible additional space, although I'm hope for more of a promenade that a building once it goes. Another option would be to expand the plaza over 4th with skybridges over 3rd to the BOK Center and over frisco to the convention center parkade.
The convention center parkade could always move if it had to and another garage built in a different location.
Quote from: SXSW on March 11, 2010, 10:49:37 AM
The convention center parkade could always move if it had to and another garage built in a different location.
That's just not gonna happen after the renovation it just went through. Not without a fight I'm pretty sure.
Quote from: JeffM on March 11, 2010, 10:40:38 AM
Well, Tulsa has about as much shot at hosting the AMA as we do the Summer Olympics.... c'mon guys, think more about local, state, and regional... not national...
Well said...
Along the lines of the MCM nature of City Hall, I'm a huge MCM afficionado, but I've always thought old city hall looked like it was built with a "Girder & Panel" building set. I had one of these when I was a kid:
(http://www.drtoy.com/images/items/4980.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on March 11, 2010, 11:00:42 AM
Well said...
Along the lines of the MCM nature of City Hall, I'm a huge MCM afficionado, but I've always thought old city hall looked like it was built with a "Girder & Panel" building set. I had one of these when I was a kid:
(http://www.drtoy.com/images/items/4980.jpg)
OMG. I had one too, with the blue plastic girders and cheesy snap-on exterior panels. I used to make these monstrosities and my parents were convinced I'd be an architect.
Back to the topic...
Quote from: we vs us on March 11, 2010, 10:13:16 AM
This was exciting news around the watercooler here today. The big question: why are people piddling around with small hotels? More rooms are more rooms, granted, but putting together a larger convention solution piecemeal makes selling to groups that want a one-stop shop very difficult. ie. if the AMA wants to house all 4000 of their attendees in the hotel where they're holding their convention, it ain't happening downtown. It'd still take as many as three hotels to do the job.
This 200 room hotel and the 120 room hotel proposed as part of the One Place development at 3rd & Cheyenne, along with the recently opened Mayo and the Courtyard opening in June, will make a significant dent in available rooms downtown. I'd like to see more vacant historic buildings converted to hotels. The old motel where Coney Island is would make an interesting smaller, boutique hotel and from what I've heard there is a group looking to do just that.
Quote from: SXSW on March 11, 2010, 11:07:23 AM
This 200 room hotel and the 120 room hotel proposed as part of the One Place development at 3rd & Cheyenne, along with the recently opened Mayo and the Courtyard opening in June, will make a significant dent in available rooms downtown. I'd like to see more vacant historic buildings converted to hotels. The old motel where Coney Island is would make an interesting smaller, boutique hotel and from what I've heard there is a group looking to do just that.
I want to see the May Rooms restored to their original purpose. That ought to "stimulate" tourism downtown. :)
Quote from: Conan71 on March 11, 2010, 11:14:17 AM
I want to see the May Rooms restored to their original purpose. That ought to "stimulate" tourism downtown. :)
Interesting artilce from Tulsa TV Memories http://tulsatvmemories.com/mayrooms.html (http://tulsatvmemories.com/mayrooms.html) towards the bottom of the page as well as a discussion of 743-3749.
And I know nothing about some crazy high schoolers driving through the Main & Haskell area with air-charged water fire extinguishers...
Good article.
I thought we were talking about the Snyders...why does Mr Bunney think they would not complete the plan?
Can the city not act as its own real estate agent? Isn't a hotel right next the the convention center exactly what we were hoping for when we vacated/consolidated city hall? The council bandied about the idea of selling parks to make ends meet and suddenly we can turn up our nose to a pile of money offered for an unused building?
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 11, 2010, 08:33:39 AM
Quote
Bunney said the city could make the sale through two processes — a direct sale, which would require sealed bids, or by deeding the property to a city authority, such as the Tulsa Industrial Authority or the Tulsa Development Authority, to negotiate the sale.
He said he would push for using an authority because it could put together a contract to ensure that the developer completes the plan.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 11, 2010, 11:14:17 AM
I want to see the May Rooms restored to their original purpose. That ought to "stimulate" tourism downtown. :)
Just for tourists?
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Dep-1A.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Dep-2B.jpg)
Sorry.... Thought this was the comment section of the Tulsa World**?
Quote from: carltonplace on March 11, 2010, 01:42:29 PM
I thought we were talking about the Snyders...why does Mr Bunney think they would not complete the plan?
Can the city not act as its own real estate agent? Isn't a hotel right next the the convention center exactly what we were hoping for when we vacated/consolidated city hall? The council bandied about the idea of selling parks to make ends meet and suddenly we can turn up our nose to a pile of money offered for an unused building?
For some odd reason, Carlton, the city seems to want to keep the TDA relevant even though they've obviously delayed several deals and managed to play guard dog for key properties around the new ball park. Why do I have the odd feeling this could even wind up back on the desk of someone at Jones Lang LaSalle.
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Offer-to-buy-old-city-hall-turn-into-hotel/h_pRWSnTWEiLQVrT4nGA-g.cspx (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Offer-to-buy-old-city-hall-turn-into-hotel/h_pRWSnTWEiLQVrT4nGA-g.cspx)
Per this story everything's getting snapped right up...
QuoteThe move to the new city hall also left three other buildings vacant, such as one at 7th and Houston.
City leaders say now there's interest from the OSU medical facility to buy it.
Another city building on the market is at 1st and Greenwood.
A development group is in negotiations with the city to house its company there.
And then there's the old fire station headquarters.
"There's a well-known, well-established, long-tenured Tulsa non-profit, who I'd rather not disclose just at this moment, who's interested in the old fire department headquarters," said Mike Bunney, the Economic Development Director for the City of Tulsa.
The city council has to okay the sale of city hall first.
Where is the old fire department headquarters they are speaking of?
Quote from: Patrick on March 11, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Where is the old fire department headquarters they are speaking of?
Frankfort between 4th and 5th I believe.
That would be great if the city can complete all of these sales.
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12126543 (http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12126543)
Am I misreading this? Is this saying the sale is going through or are we still waiting on all the hoops to be set up?
QuoteTULSA, OK -- Tulsa has finally found a buyer for its old City Hall. The property has sat vacant since the city moved into One Technology Center in 2008.
The Snyder family, who recently renovated the Mayo Hotel, has offered $1 million for this property. It may mean the end of what has become an eyesore in downtown Tulsa.
Old City Hall has stuck out like a sore thumb for several years now.
The City of Tulsa put it on the market when it relocated at One Technology Center, but no buyers have stepped up to the plate until now.
The Snyders, who run Brickhugger LLC, see potential where most others don't.
"To get downtown redeveloped and vibrant again, we have to have all the buildings filled," said Tori Snyder of Brickhugger, LLC.
The family has already redone the Mayo Hotel, a building that sat vacant for two decades. Encouraged by that project, they are prepared to spend upwards of $30 million on this one.
City Hall will not be demolished, but instead converted into a 200-room hotel.
"It will help all of downtown. It'll help the BOK Center, and will definitely help the Convention Center. They need more hotel rooms," Tori Snyder said.
Tulsa Mayor Dewey Bartlett says he was a bit surprised by the Snyders' interest. After all, this is the first and only offer the city has received.
As for the $1 million, Bartlett says it's a one-time infusion of cash and won't be used to rehire anyone.
"We would not turn around and hire a whole bunch of people. I don't think that would be a very prudent use of the money," he said.
The Synders expect to complete the renovation and have the hotel open within two years. They say despite its looks, old City Hall can be converted into a vibrant part of downtown revitalization.
"A lot of people just look at a building from the outside, and don't really understand what you can do with a building," said Tori Snyder of Brickhugger LLC, the company that has made on offer on Tulsa's old City Hall.
Also included in the deal is the Francis Campbell City Council building. The city says the sale will also generate additional savings.
Even though the building is unoccupied, the utility bill for old City Hall was still nearly $600,000 last year.
Quote from: SXSW on March 11, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
Frankfort between 4th and 5th I believe.
That would be great if the city can complete all of these sales.
The non-profit wanting to buy the fire dept building is currently on brookside and looking to expand their operations. It's a win for downtown but not as big as a major retail or housing buyer.
This will be an interesting development and the Snyder's have shown with the Mayo that they have the will (and money) to get things done. I think it would be really cool if they really focus on the mid-century modern design aspect of old City Hall with more contemporary features. Replacing the tinted glass with something more transparent, like the Quincy Hotel below, would be a good start..
The main building would be renovated into the hotel, while the council chamber would become the hotel's restaurant.
(http://www.holidaycity.com/quincy-singapore/photo1a.jpg)
(http://www.avantgardeasia.com/wp-content/gallery/quincy-a-far-east-hotel-singapore/quincy_hotel_singapore.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100414_11_A11_Cityco659899&archive=yes (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100414_11_A11_Cityco659899&archive=yes)
Aren't members of the council talking themselves out of the sale?
Quote from: Townsend on April 16, 2010, 02:07:28 PM
Aren't members of the council talking themselves out of the sale?
I read an article saying there was a "controversy" about us not getting enough money for it. Everyone in the article quoted was in favor of the sale.
It's an ongoing liability...I had heard $600,000 a year to be mothballed which seems to me to be a wild exageration but with the mismanagement still in place that preceeded the decay it's no wonder the city wants to dump it.
Next up for Rooney, or his shills, TIF!
Something else will come along in addition for asking a $5,000,000 or %80 cut in market value.
They just better have an understanding of storm water management fees with the city before we give it to them.... :D Guess the Areema hasn't helped market values at all.
On a related note, just saw a cox commercial featuring Macy Snyder and the Mayo
Quote from: custosnox on April 16, 2010, 07:13:18 PM
On a related note, just saw a cox commercial featuring Macy Snyder and the Mayo
Saw that one. like it better than the ones they used to run with different people proclaiming:
"I love my parent's Cox... High Speed Internet!"
Quote from: Patrick on March 11, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
Where is the old fire department headquarters they are speaking of?
Tulsa Opera is offering a land swap for the old FD headquarters. They will move their offices, costume shop, and rehearsal space from 16th & Boulder to the vacant TFD HQ at 4th & Frankfort.
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100418_A17_A17tulsaopera0418.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100418_11_A17_Anarti117641 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100418_11_A17_Anarti117641)
Quote from: SXSW on April 18, 2010, 11:32:10 AM
Tulsa Opera is offering a land swap for the old FD headquarters. They will move their offices, costume shop, and rehearsal space from 16th & Boulder to the vacant TFD HQ at 4th & Frankfort.
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100418_A17_A17tulsaopera0418.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100418_11_A17_Anarti117641 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100418_11_A17_Anarti117641)
Jeff Scott is a real estate broker. Nice guy. But the Opera should pay rent to a landlord in the
Brady Franklin Arts District and they have no business buying property or trading property in this market. Of course, should they find a benefactor go for it. That industrial property isn't worth much. The city would be better to wait than take trade.
ONE OTHER THING! THE CITIES TRACK RECORD IN INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY OWNERSHIP/DEVELOPMENT IS A JOKE! STAY FAR THE HELL AWAY FROM THIS CRAP. (btw, is JS the listing broker on the Industrial land? If so, he'd gather a commission on the sale even if no money exchanged hands....hmmm)
Are there any plans to do something with the car dealer/boat something or other monstrosity that sits across the street? I'm not much for tearing down buildings, but I don't see much use for what is sitting there now. If the Opera is going to pretty up the old fire department, it should be visible from Elgin and the rest of downtown instead of blocked by whatever that complex is across the street. A well landscaped parking lot would probably be nicer than what's there now.
Quote from: DowntownDan on April 20, 2010, 03:10:42 PM
Are there any plans to do something with the car dealer/boat something or other monstrosity that sits across the street? I'm not much for tearing down buildings, but I don't see much use for what is sitting there now. If the Opera is going to pretty up the old fire department, it should be visible from Elgin and the rest of downtown instead of blocked by whatever that complex is across the street. A well landscaped parking lot would probably be nicer than what's there now.
I think that the building across the street has some great potential since it's roof is already a parking lot, if you get a chance to go up you'd also see that there is what seems to be a driveable air bridge between that building and the building to the west. The building is mostly glazed and doesn't seem to have much in the way of existing walls which is also a great for renovation! A good investor would see that they have a built-in parking lot for an office or retail space, possibly even a great start for downtown apartments with some code changes. I don't care for the storage of the rotting boats and cars but I think tearing it down would be a waste.
According to the TW today, the city council is divided about whether to take the Snyder's $1,000,000.00 for the old city hall building.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100422_11_A11_Ctonio455089 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100422_11_A11_Ctonio455089)
Are they nuts? it's already been empty for 3 years with annual maintenance and utilities estimated at 600k...if they wait 8 more years to sell it at market value then they could break even! Sold for 6.2M...total profit: $0
sell it now and start making $ales tax revenue in a few years.
Especially since the buyers are a local group that already have successfully renovated another downtown building. The Snyder family has strong Tulsa roots and deep pockets (Macy's dad John is President of Manhattan Construction). They would be crazy not to accept their offer. The potential is there to create a cool midcentury modern hotel adjacent to the convention center in a building the city is losing money on, seems like a no brainer to me..
I want the Snyders to get the property just so they can stick it to the Carpenter's Union...again
Downtown just isn't the same without some hired protesters.
On a related note, City Council is split on whether to accept the offer for the old City Hall.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100422_11_A11_Ctonio455089
A window into geniuses at work.
We deserve having the council negotiate on our behalf instead of just accepting the first offer.
While the city council dithers, this sucker is costing us money.
All previous interested parties wanted the city to raze the site at our own cost, before offering up a nice empty lot for new development. I'm happy that a local developer with a proven track record has a creative idea for revitalizing this site. I'm personally not a fan of the architecture, but I know that it qualifies for listing on the National Register. Let's cut our losses and get out of the way!
After three years, this is the market rate for this property. If it weren't, there would be a bidding war going on right now. I'm not seeing too many folks trampling each other to outbid the Snyder's offer. That's a clue.
Quote from: fotd on April 22, 2010, 04:41:12 PM
We deserve having the council negotiate on our behalf instead of just accepting the first offer.
It would also be nice; if one could come up with future parking arrangements for the Courthouse, Library, Detectives Bureau, etc., and all of the above during construction.
Maybe that is quite simple and I just don't see it.
In mild defense of the city council, they have been told for some years now that the property would bring something in the neighborhood of $6.5 Million (just one of the many lies spun by the prior mayoral administration). They have a bit of a duty to examine this very carefully before accepting an offer of approximately 15% of its supposed "value."
Quote from: Rico on April 22, 2010, 07:02:50 PM
It would also be nice; if one could come up with future parking arrangements for the Courthouse, Library, Detectives Bureau, etc., and all of the above during construction.
Maybe that is quite simple and I just don't see it.
You know zilch about real estate transactions.....
Quote from: fotd on April 22, 2010, 04:41:12 PM
We deserve having the council negotiate on our behalf instead of just accepting the first offer.
They need to negotiate in the best interest of the owners of the building: the citizens of Tulsa. I'd rather see it sold now for a lower offer to a capable developer. The Snyders proved themselves with The Mayo. It was inches from certain death and an eyesore for 30 years because it kept changing hands between "developers" who couldn't come up with the money to make renovation a reality. We came fairly close to dropping trou for the Branson Landing developers for what $45mm or so in subsidizing the purchase of the concrete plant.
WTH is wrong with taking a cash offer of $1mm on a building which probably isn't really worth more than $4mm in the current market, especially when they buyer will assume all risks and has the funding to make it happen and get the proprty generating property & sales tax as well as helping to recruit more business downtown. Call it corporate welfare if you like, but this is as good a deal as I think we will see in the current economic and lending climate.
If you think it's worth more, put your money where your mouth is.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 22, 2010, 09:36:42 PM
They need to negotiate in the best interest of the owners of the building: the citizens of Tulsa. I'd rather see it sold now for a lower offer to a capable developer. The Snyders proved themselves with The Mayo. It was inches from certain death and an eyesore for 30 years because it kept changing hands between "developers" who couldn't come up with the money to make renovation a reality. We came fairly close to dropping trou for the Branson Landing developers for what $45mm or so in subsidizing the purchase of the concrete plant.
WTH is wrong with taking a cash offer of $1mm on a building which probably isn't really worth more than $4mm in the current market, especially when they buyer will assume all risks and has the funding to make it happen and get the proprty generating property & sales tax as well as helping to recruit more business downtown. Call it corporate welfare if you like, but this is as good a deal as I think we will see in the current economic and lending climate.
If you think it's worth more, put your money where your mouth is.
Nopey....downtown money in real estate is for the foundations and the construction companies....not to mention TDA and the Chamber...gotta keep their jobs. You sound, and the city sounds, like desperate sellers.
Tulsa is just a big Muskogee...
Every day it's in the hands of TDA or COT it's cost us another $1600 or so plus the additional damage due to neglect. That site isn't getting more valuable by the day & it's a drain. Let the Snyders assume that and start the process of improving it.
A few years ago, I was trying to sell a car. It was in nice shape, and I thought: "it should sell for x amount." It didn't sell for that amount. But, instead of dropping the price, I held onto it, waiting for the right time and buyer to come along. In the meantime, I had to pay insurance, tags, maintenance, etc. With each passing month, it decreased in value, and the longer it sat around, the more problems it started to have.
Moral of the story: Don't be greedy. If you don't have a use for it, sell the darn thing and let someone else enjoy it, use it, and pay to maintain it.
Quote from: fotd on April 22, 2010, 09:18:20 PM
You know zilch about real estate transactions.....
fotd,
Please elaborate if you don't mind.
I was simply agreeing with you and wondering, out loud, if there was a plan in place that covered parking for the other entities surrounding City Hall.
rico
One added note.
I saw plans for the Court House to be relocated to a site closer to David L Moss. Included in the papers was a site designated to be the fture home of a "Super Wal-Mart".
Very close to to where the Day Center and Avalon now are located.
PC, I agree the blood letting needs to stop...more shoot from the city hip? Wasn't this "continued" maintenance accounted for in the sale modeling to move to The Bork? In development there are serious costs prior to the final plan. And the Snyders (Rooney's?) are certainly capable...but are Macy and Tori doing this based on their financials? You just don't leap without doing due diligence. Lots of serious issues need to be addressed before you give this liability to an opportunist. Gawd forbid the shitty screws this up again and there you are with your hatchet out.....
Quote from: Rico on April 23, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
fotd,
Please elaborate if you don't mind.
I was simply agreeing with you and wondering, out loud, if there was a plan in place that covered parking for the other entities surrounding City Hall.
rico
One added note.
I saw plans for the Court House to be relocated to a site closer to David L Moss. Included in the papers was a site designated to be the fture home of a "Super Wal-Mart". Very close to to where the Day Center and Avalon now are located.
You saw plans for a Wal Mart where? Those were from the Savage Crayola Daze, no doubt. Wal mart would neva go there...architects often get dreamy to instigate getting on the public dole...
With regard to a "plan"....don't be silly, this is a big Muskogee.
"You saw plans for a Wal Mart where?"
To the North of the BOK and West approximately where Storey is now and the land West to the loop.
According to the source this was agreed upon when they were going in at the Nordam site.
City i.e. Taylor was involved. I believe Schusterman owns some of the land.
Well I never gave it a whole lot of thought, as plans and the such are so plentiful in Tulsa.
There is nothing wrong with the city council exhibiting prudent skepticism about the $1 million offer and asking questions. However, the council should have shown equal or more skepticism when they were given the original appraisal. It's not like there were any comps or firm evidence on which to base the appraisal.
Unfortuantely, some on the council seem more concerned with preventing anyone from making a buck on any deal with the city. It is that attitude that has lead to the city holding onto properties for decades while waiting for the perfect buyer/devlopment project to come along.
The city marketed this property for 3 years and received exactly 1 offer. That offer has been publically known for months and no one has come in to make a better offer. As noted above, unlike much of vacant land the city owns, this propery is costing the city money every day it doesn't sell it. Thus, the $1 million offer is going down in value every day the council doesn't act.
Quote from: DTowner on April 23, 2010, 04:33:29 PM
There is nothing wrong with the city council exhibiting prudent skepticism about the $1 million offer and asking questions. However, the council should have shown equal or more skepticism when they were given the original appraisal. It's not like there were any comps or firm evidence on which to base the appraisal.
Unfortuantely, some on the council seem more concerned with preventing anyone from making a buck on any deal with the city. It is that attitude that has lead to the city holding onto properties for decades while waiting for the perfect buyer/devlopment project to come along.
The city marketed this property for 3 years and received exactly 1 offer. That offer has been publically known for months and no one has come in to make a better offer. As noted above, unlike much of vacant land the city owns, this propery is costing the city money every day it doesn't sell it. Thus, the $1 million offer is going down in value every day the council doesn't act.
Or they should have showed better skepticism when Staubach & Co was offered a contract which would reward them with more money if they could justify the move to OneTech.
Quote from: fotd on April 23, 2010, 12:14:52 PM
PC, I agree the blood letting needs to stop...more shoot from the city hip? Wasn't this "continued" maintenance accounted for in the sale modeling to move to The Bork? In development there are serious costs prior to the final plan. And the Snyders (Rooney's?) are certainly capable...but are Macy and Tori doing this based on their financials? You just don't leap without doing due diligence. Lots of serious issues need to be addressed before you give this liability to an opportunist. Gawd forbid the shitty screws this up again and there you are with your hatchet out.....
I really don't care if it's Rooney's money Tori and Macy spend, just as long as all they are basically asking for is a $5.2mm discount on the appraised price.
You know as well as I do an appraisal is only worth the paper it's written on if no one is willing to pay what the appraisal says it is worth. I'm real curious how they arrived at the value they did. There were rumors awash that one of Bill Lobeck's developer buddies was a lock on buying the property and doing something with it as soon as the city could vacate.
Wow....you don't care if the buyer doesn't have the financial ability to carry through....wow.
Quote from: fotd on April 23, 2010, 04:49:47 PM
Wow....you don't care if the buyer doesn't have the financial ability to carry through....wow.
Absolutely incorrect. I don't care if they are spending Snyder money or Rooney money so long as they can follow through.
If selling the old City Hall results in getting the Plaza area with the long dead fountains cleaned up and restored then I am all for it.
I have full faith that these developers have the financing in place and will do a good job.
Sell the building. A hotel there will be great for attracting conventions.
Conventions? Like the ones' at the fairgrounds where they sell swastika flags and pendants of Our commander in chief being lynched? Maybe we should see who buys the Crowne Plaza first....and to just trust someone because they redeveloped the Mayo is nothing. Hell, the Mayo has yet to prove fruitious. Blind faith on property that is commensurate to downtown Muskogee. Convention town we will never be...'cept Ken Hagin and those type loons. Keep hoping. Just fodder for Chamber maids....You should want the Snyder's to prove their financial capabilities. Could be a recipe for disaster if you understood Sim City (build an areama and see what happens)...or was it Sem Group?
Quote from: fotd on April 24, 2010, 05:01:57 PM
Conventions? Like the ones' at the fairgrounds where they sell swastika flags and pendants of Our commander in chief being lynched? Maybe we should see who buys the Crowne Plaza first....and to just trust someone because they redeveloped the Mayo is nothing. Hell, the Mayo has yet to prove fruitious. Blind faith on property that is commensurate to downtown Muskogee. Convention town we will never be...'cept Ken Hagin and those type loons. Keep hoping. Just fodder for Chamber maids....You should want the Snyder's to prove their financial capabilities. Could be a recipe for disaster if you understood Sim City (build an areama and see what happens)...or was it Sem Group?
Uh, last I checked, the renovation of the Mayo pretty much sums up the confidence I have in the Snyders. The Mayo was a developer's hot potato.
I say let them have for the price offered.
Careful Hoss, or I will conjure up the memory of John Williams.....
Quote from: fotd on April 24, 2010, 05:01:57 PM
Conventions? Like the ones' at the fairgrounds where they sell swastika flags and pendants of Our commander in chief being lynched? Maybe we should see who buys the Crowne Plaza first....and to just trust someone because they redeveloped the Mayo is nothing. Hell, the Mayo has yet to prove fruitious. Blind faith on property that is commensurate to downtown Muskogee. Convention town we will never be...'cept Ken Hagin and those type loons. Keep hoping. Just fodder for Chamber maids....You should want the Snyder's to prove their financial capabilities. Could be a recipe for disaster if you understood Sim City (build an areama and see what happens)...or was it Sem Group?
You are wrong here on just about every count.
QuoteDue to technical problems experienced last night with the electronic posting of meeting agendas, all of today's (5/6/10) City Council meetings have been canceled, and rescheduled for Monday, May 10.
On May 10, the Council's Budget Committee meeting will be at 4 p.m., Room 411; there will be a Council meeting at 5 p.m. (Room 411); and the regular business meeting will be at 6 p.m., City Council Chambers, 2nd Floor.
This was quoted from their FB post...does that mean we'll not know the fate of the Snyder bid today?
Yes...
All city boards, authorities and even council meetings are being postponed. Because of the IT problem, any business done could be legally challenged as being conducted at a meeting that was not technically legally posted.
I assume this is to meet Open Meetings Act requirements.
Quote from: DTowner on May 06, 2010, 03:34:41 PM
I assume this is to meet Open Meetings Act requirements.
Yes.
I think this is a great postponement of some big decision...The computer malfunction was probably some purposely caused inside job or was a result of a black helicoptor operation.
It is convenient that the Mayor and the Chamber are all in the nation's capitol with many witnesses.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 06, 2010, 12:07:48 PM
All city boards, authorities and even council meetings are being postponed. Because of the IT problem, any business done could be legally challenged as being conducted at a meeting that was not technically legally posted.
Perhaps we should take part of the IT Director's salary and put it towards introducing some redundancy to head off failures like this.
If an entity the size of the city has an outage that lasts more than five minutes, they've done something terribly wrong, barring an event like the flood some years back. (protecting against that might require more budget)
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=12442277
Quote
Tulsa Gets Second Offer For Old City Hall
Posted: May 06, 2010 6:11 PM CDT
Updated: May 06, 2010 9:52 PM CDT
TULSA, OK -- The News On 6 has learned the investment group that re-developed the North Tulsa grocery store site has made an offer for the old Tulsa City Hall.
Omega Alpha Development says its offer is more than the first offer made by the Snyder family in March, which was for $1 million.
The city council is expected Monday to approve the transfer of the Old City Hall to the Tulsa Development Authority, so they may negotiate a sale.
The building has been on the market for more than a year.
I did a google on Omega Alpha Development and found this site http://www.omegaalphausa.com/ (http://www.omegaalphausa.com/)
and after looking at this one it was linked to the KOTV and Tulsa World articles.
Interesting to say the least.
Quote from: dbacks fan on May 06, 2010, 10:24:54 PM
I did a google on Omega Alpha Development and found this site http://www.omegaalphausa.com/ (http://www.omegaalphausa.com/)
and after looking at this one it was linked to the KOTV and Tulsa World articles.
Interesting to say the least.
Iiiiiiiii don't think that link you have there has anything to do with the Omega Alpha group thats here in Tulsa. I thought the one here was a group of local people who had gotten together to do the Albertsons site. And I cant imagine that company you have the link to having anything to do with Tulsa, let alone an abandoned grocery store on our north side lol.
The mention of the north-tulsa grocery store makes me wonder if it is the same guy that runs los americas. If so then I would really have problems with that since he got the money from the city to open that store. I also wonder about the statement that the offer was "more than" $1mil but not exactly how much
Quote from: TheArtist on May 06, 2010, 10:37:25 PM
Iiiiiiiii don't think that link you have there has anything to do with the Omega Alpha group thats here in Tulsa. I thought the one here was a group of local people who had gotten together to do the Albertsons site. And I cant imagine that company you have the link to having anything to do with Tulsa, let alone an abandoned grocery store on our north side lol.
You may very well be right. Here is what happend(forgive the "Monk" reference) I put in Omega Alpha Development in the search, came across the link that I provided, when I used the back button to get back to the original google search page and scrolled down, the google link for the KOTV article was the same color as my initial search, that light magenta color, so I assumed it was related. (no assume jokes please) If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, search engines like me aren't allways right.
I thought it wierd as well that a multi national company based in Miami FL would be interseted in the old town hall as well as a vacant Albertsons in North Tulsa. So as I said I'm probably wrong.
Quote from: custosnox on May 06, 2010, 10:41:08 PM
The mention of the north-tulsa grocery store makes me wonder if it is the same guy that runs los americas. If so then I would really have problems with that since he got the money from the city to open that store. I also wonder about the statement that the offer was "more than" $1mil but not exactly how much
No, this is the developer who built the site Albertsons was in, he's not the grocery store operator. Here's the Tulsa World story. Sounds like they are well-financed too and don't want any gov't financing help. I had not detected that the Snyders were angling for that on this project:
"Tony Lombardi, managing broker for Stan Frisbie Real Estate representing the Omega Alpha confirmed the offer Friday, but would not release the amount.
The city's Economic Development Director Mike Bunney said Friday that the offer was $1.1 million for mixed-use development that includes retail, office, multi-family and a hotel.
Bunney told the Tulsa World Friday that he received the offer Thursday afternoon and had planned to first talk to the City Council.
Bunney said he will seek guidance from the council, but will recommend that the land still be conveyed to the Tulsa Development Authority and a bidding process be established.
He said there also should be a request for proposal process established to not only set development criteria for the site, but to have a fair process for selling the property.
"I believe an RFP is appropriate since I believe the councilors have spoke strongly about the city committing to placing a hotel at the site," Bunney said.
A press release from Omega Alpha president Jonathon Graber states that the former City Hall complex "is in what we think is a unique location to provide some advantages which are currently under served in the area."
Omega successfully redeveloped the old Albertson's store and fuel center at the corner of Pine Street and Peoria Avenue. The store is now the Gateway Market. "We see an opportunity to invest in the vision that a lot of Tulsans have for downtown," Graber said.
While not releasing details in the release, Graber said the concept for the former City Hall site is "broad based as opposed to strictly hospitality oriented use."
Graber wrote that Omega's principle advantage is that "we are self funded, which means that it is not necessary for us to secure outside funding for out projects or borrow money form the city after the sale to complete the development."
"We are willing to commit substantial equity to our projects," he wrote. "I believe that is a definite plus for the taxpayers in Tulsa, not to have as is so often the case, extremely indebted, over leveraged inner-city redevelopment relying mostly on taxpayer subsidized or government loans."
Graber wrote those conditions have been "a fairly disturbing trend in downtown," which does not lead to long-term sustainability."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100507_11_0_Asecon951676
The timing and lack of details of this new plan is frustrating. I wonder if this building is really large enough to viably contain office, retail, residential and hospitality? I also question whether touting the development of the old Albertson's location is a ringing endorsement of this group's vision and foresight into development that's the right fit at the right location in Tulsa.
The city needs to quickly set up a process for bids with a firm deadline so that everyone's cards are put on the table and deal for the best project can get made.
No it is not the same guy that runs Los Americas, he just bought the grocery store from Omega Alpha.
Quote from: DTowner on May 07, 2010, 10:09:23 AM
The timing and lack of details of this new plan is frustrating. I wonder if this building is really large enough to viably contain office, retail, residential and hospitality? I also question whether touting the development of the old Albertson's location is a ringing endorsement of this group's vision and foresight into development that's the right fit at the right location in Tulsa.
The city needs to quickly set up a process for bids with a firm deadline so that everyone's cards are put on the table and deal for the best project can get made.
Since it appears the city has stalled long enough to get at least one competitive bidder to step forward, I agree with Bunney that they should put out an RFP which would clearly outline the ultimate property use, sources of financing, and completion date. This would help shake out any bidder who cannot complete the project in a timely manner or who might not have all financing in place prior to starting the project.
So the property sits for months with no offers...a private company with a completed project a couple of hundred yards away makes an offer...nothing happens for eight weeks...then the day of the vote by the council...a new bidder shows up, but won't disclose details of their offer.
The first offer is $1 million on a property worth purportedly six times that. Turns out the second offer is for $1.1 million. Do I hear $1.11 million? How about $1.11 million and 99 cents?
I hate to see the city miss out on $100,000 in revenue, but don't want us to be in the situation of becoming some sort of super slow auctioneer.
The city is losing $50,000 a month on this building and two months later the offer is $100,000 more. Sounds to me that at best we are back to even. If the second offer ends up taking more months, we will be behind again. Just think, if we take another 20 months to do the sale, we will have lost all value. Anybody want to book that bet?
I say...make the sale to the guy who first offered and has experience renovating a building into a hotel two hundred yards away. This new offer isn't that much higher to make us keep waiting.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 07, 2010, 10:51:59 AM
So the property sits for months with no offers...a private company with a completed project a couple of hundred yards away makes an offer...nothing happens for eight weeks...then the day of the vote by the council...a new bidder shows up, but won't disclose details of their offer.
The first offer is $1 million on a property worth purportedly six times that. Turns out the second offer is for $1.1 million. Do I hear $1.11 million? How about $1.11 million and 99 cents?
I hate to see the city miss out on $100,000 in revenue, but don't want us to be in the situation of becoming some sort of super slow auctioneer.
The city is losing $50,000 a month on this building and two months later the offer is $100,000 more. Sounds to me that at best we are back to even. If the second offer ends up taking more months, we will be behind again. Just think, if we take another 20 months to do the sale, we will have lost all value. Anybody want to book that bet?
I say...make the sale to the guy who first offered and has experience renovating a building into a hotel two hundred yards away. This new offer isn't that much higher to make us keep waiting.
I give you the TDA. Sound the trumpets.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 07, 2010, 09:07:50 AM
"Tony Lombardi, managing broker for Stan Frisbie Real Estate representing the Omega Alpha confirmed the offer Friday, but would not release the amount.
From www.stanfrisbie.com:
"Stan Frisbie Real Estate, LLC has played a major role in every power center, big box retail land transaction in Metro Tulsa over the past ten years."
"Stan Frisbie Real Estate, LLC controls over 4,800 acres of retail, residential and investment property valued at over $300,000,000."
Anyone else noticed Stan Frisbie signs up around town before? What seems to be the common thread that you notice? What I have noticed (and nothing other than casual observation to back this up) is the properties are sitting a LONG time before any development ever happens (I have been in Tulsa for 4 years now, and many of the sites still sit empty with his sign up). This screams speculator to me, and would hope the TDA/City Council proceed with caution. I think his client (Omega Alpha) sees an oppurtunity to pay "just above" what someone else has already made KNOWN as their price that goes along with them spending a LOT of money to develop the existing building NOW and add VALUE to our downtown assets ASAP.
What I fear they would do is pay 10% more up front, TDA and City Councilors are seen as "heroes" for holding out for a hundred thousand more while our city is in dire straights to find $$, and then the site sits empty, or is torn down immediately and then 5-15 years later the area blossoms a little more and the low hanging fruit has been developed THEN they sell to someone for a real nice return on their original "investment" of $1.1 Million plus holding costs (which would not be cheap if building remains in place, but if demo'd probably would not be much since the DT property is "taxed" based on improved SF plus raw land, and they could make enough on surface parking fees to cover annual holding costs, I would think).
Maybe I am reading too much into this? I hope so.
Note: Edited to reflect the counter-offer price of $1.1M which was just announced. Time for an RFP and vetting of potential developer's plans.
After seeing what the Snyders did with the Mayo and considering how far into disrepair that had slipped, I've got to say they are my sentimental favorite for the City Hall site.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 07, 2010, 11:49:56 AM
After seeing what the Snyders did with the Mayo and considering how far into disrepair that had slipped, I've got to say they are my sentimental favorite for the City Hall site.
Same here.
They have a reason to fix it up and get it looking nice since it's a very noticable neighbor of the Mayo Hotel.
I say donate the Tulsa Club building to them...if the city can ever get an answer from the judge.
I am also rooting for the snyders in this one. I've been suspicious of this other deal since it got introduced. Of course I could just be biased since I have seen what has happened with the Mayo.
Not that I wouldn't love to see the Tulsa Club taken care of, but I would like to see it as something that would give omage to its original intent rather then as a hotel.
3 years, $600,000 per year = $1.8mil in costs.
$1mil offer.
LOSS OF $800k. Should have given it away the day we moved out to the most ambitious developer willing to make concrete assurances. All this is noise... just make sure the developer is required to move. No 1st street lofts allowed.
That whole last-minute-bid thing stinks. Something's fishy.
This happened in OKC with the Hill site in Deep Deuce. The morons at OCURA found themselves in the despicable position of nearly having to award a deal to the locally well-liked developers until the worst possible proposal jumped in with a last-minute deal, by getting rid of the TIF request (and OCURA failed to legally notify the other 3 developers with proposals). 4 years later: 20 out of 170 (downsized to 157) condos have been built, 3 have been sold, site is in foreclosure, and all the investors backed out while they still could.
That's just what development authorities do. They always squander a site.
Quote from: spartanokc on May 08, 2010, 01:14:29 AM
This happened in OKC with the Hill site in Deep Deuce. The morons at OCURA found themselves in the despicable position of nearly having to award a deal to the locally well-liked developers until the worst possible proposal jumped in with a last-minute deal, by getting rid of the TIF request (and OCURA failed to legally notify the other 3 developers with proposals). 4 years later: 20 out of 170 (downsized to 157) condos have been built, 3 have been sold, site is in foreclosure, and all the investors backed out while they still could.
That's just what development authorities do. They always squander a site.
At present our Development Authority....a.k.a. TDA has assumed a very familiar posture.
"Hand extended, palm wide open, waiting to be greased.!"If we get an "RFP" posted that can be translated for the "Good of the City"
It may pull this one out.
We can hope.
When does the council vote on this or has the entire process been delayed? It would be really nice to see some movement on this property. Tulsa will continue to lose out on conventions without another hotel nearby. The views from this building are great. I went up there once and to the east is one of the better skyline views in the city, to the south and west you see the river valley, and to the north the Osage Hills.
There is an agenda item on the Special meeting called for Monday night to declare "the real property owned by the city of Tulsa is no longer necessary for City's business and to authorize conveyance of said property to the Tulsa Development Authority".
The meeting is at 6pm at City Hall.
I the Omega Alpha deal to rehab the buildings or is their plan to bulldoze?
Quote from: sgrizzle on May 10, 2010, 07:05:37 AM
I the Omega Alpha deal to rehab the buildings or is their plan to bulldoze?
Conceive of the absolute worst idea you can, and that will be the TDA's decision.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 08, 2010, 12:11:56 PM
There is an agenda item on the Special meeting called for Monday night to declare "the real property owned by the city of Tulsa is no longer necessary for City's business and to authorize conveyance of said property to the Tulsa Development Authority".
The meeting is at 6pm at City Hall.
So haisten the process to delay the process of getting shed of the property for good. ::)
Quote from: Conan71 on May 10, 2010, 08:44:43 AM
So haisten the process to delay the process of getting shed of the property for good. ::)
I think I overheard some members of the TDA chanting "4 more years".
Quote from: Gaspar on May 10, 2010, 07:31:00 AM
Conceive of the absolute worst idea you can, and that will be the TDA's decision.
OK, here goes...a Wal*Mart super center built on islands in a river with branch terminal for Tulsa International to land overflow air traffic
Genius! Can we include some high intensity LED lighting to give it that final touch?
Quote from: waterboy on May 10, 2010, 02:47:22 PM
Genius! Can we include some high intensity LED lighting to give it that final touch?
Will it be surrounded by ill-tempered mutated sea bass?
Quote from: swake on May 10, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
Will it be surrounded by ill-tempered mutated sea bass?
Is there any other kind?
The city council listened to the two presenters, asked questions of each of them, discussed it among themselves, and then postponed the decision. They sent it to a subcommittee.
They now want to not just give it to TDA, but want any sale to be contigent upon council approval. While this just makes it that much more difficult for a developer, it shows the council doesn't trust TDA with this property.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 10, 2010, 06:32:43 PM
The city council listened to the two presenters, asked questions of each of them, discussed it among themselves, and then postponed the decision. They sent it to a subcommittee.
They now want to not just give it to TDA, but want any sale to be contigent upon council approval. While this just makes it that much more difficult for a developer, it shows the council doesn't trust TDA with this property.
Well what's up with that.? The TDA not being a pillar of trust? :o
I think the council feels a special connection with this building.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 10, 2010, 06:32:43 PM
The city council listened to the two presenters, asked questions of each of them, discussed it among themselves, and then postponed the decision. They sent it to a subcommittee.
They now want to not just give it to TDA, but want any sale to be contigent upon council approval. While this just makes it that much more difficult for a developer, it shows the council doesn't trust TDA with this property.
Didn't see ya there. I got the impression as well that there are at least a few that are wanting to try to make sure that the Snyders don't get edged out on this.
The Snyders also presented a very comprehensive plan that can really get people excited. The other presenters honestly did not seem to have a clue as to what they wanted to do with the property, only that they wanted it.
The council did show a distrust towards the TDA, particularly Henderson, Bynum and Christianson. I would feel better with the council approval clause in this, if only because it effects the interests of the city/county with the municiple and county buildings on the plaza.
I have emailed Macy, and she is supposed to get me the presentation. I'll post it as soon as I have it. One of the more interesting points to it in my opinion is the extention of 5th Street to circle around infront of the proposed hotel and the convention center, as well as opening the entrance of the convention center up to a more visually reconizable entrance.
Quote from: custosnox on May 10, 2010, 07:19:58 PM
Didn't see ya there. I got the impression as well that there are at least a few that are wanting to try to make sure that the Snyders don't get edged out on this.
The Snyders also presented a very comprehensive plan that can really get people excited. The other presenters honestly did not seem to have a clue as to what they wanted to do with the property, only that they wanted it.
The council did show a distrust towards the TDA, particularly Henderson, Bynum and Christianson. I would feel better with the council approval clause in this, if only because it effects the interests of the city/county with the municiple and county buildings on the plaza.
I have emailed Macy, and she is supposed to get me the presentation. I'll post it as soon as I have it. One of the more interesting points to it in my opinion is the extention of 5th Street to circle around infront of the proposed hotel and the convention center, as well as opening the entrance of the convention center up to a more visually reconizable entrance.
That sounds great. The building really does have a lot of potential, especially being literally adjacent to the convention center. And if another library is built that building could be turned into additional convention/meeting room space also adjacent to the hotel.
I realize this would happen later on down the road, but should the need for more exhibit space arise the ballroom expansion could be transformed into another exhibit hall adjacent to the others with the loading docks facing Houston and a primary entrance at the existing glass lobby on 3rd. Then build a new larger parking garage on the surface lots west of Houston. That then would free up that prime piece of property where the current garage sits to become ballroom space with a main entrance facing the BOK Center on 3rd. Hopefully by then the federal government would have moved to a new building so the Page Belcher could be demolished and turned into a park/plaza surrounded by the hotel, convention center, and BOK Center. Imagine the views from the ballrooms facing east over the park..
Still haven't gotten that email, so might have to wait til tomorrow when it is supposed to be in the Tulsa World.
Is Omega Alpha's proposal requiring anything about the property or is it an "as is" like the Snyder's plan?
Will the Council be pushing the TDA to make a decision or will this be a 5 year plan?
Omega Alpha is an "as is" buy as well. However that is about as far as their plan has been made out.
The TDA contract will contain a condition that it will be resolved in six months, and if it has not been sold then it will revert back to the city unless an extention is given.
love TDA. Can the city not dispose of property through any other means than this cluster love of a bureaucracy? Why do I have a feeling this other offer from Omega Alpha was simply a favor to Turner backing up his comments about "What if we got an offer for $1.2mm?" by getting the Snyders to bump their offer $200K...
Turner seemed concerned with the $600k a month on upkeep. I think he is as ready to get rid of the property now as everyone.
I think that the councilors are seeing the TDA as a necessary evil at this point, since none of them really showed any trust in TDA. I think at least a couple are convinced that they can't sell it directly, but not completely sure on that.
Quote from: custosnox on May 11, 2010, 09:39:28 AM
Turner seemed concerned with the $600k a month on upkeep. I think he is as ready to get rid of the property now as everyone.
I think that the councilors are seeing the TDA as a necessary evil at this point, since none of them really showed any trust in TDA. I think at least a couple are convinced that they can't sell it directly, but not completely sure on that.
And a necessary evil is still evil. Make it less evil or get rid of it.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 11, 2010, 09:23:46 AM
love TDA. Can the city not dispose of property through any other means than this cluster love of a bureaucracy? Why do I have a feeling this other offer from Omega Alpha was simply a favor to Turner backing up his comments about "What if we got an offer for $1.2mm?" by getting the Snyders to bump their offer $200K...
I don't think Roscoe is, connected up, that well.
I think these boys are playing the art of the auction. Wait on a bid and go as low as you can go above it.
I have a feeling they are just looking to profit on the recent interest in the site.
Possibly buying as low as they can and then doing a flip for a quick buck.
That is until this
"pesky conditional RFP" got in the way.
Quote from: Rico on May 11, 2010, 01:15:38 PM
I don't think Roscoe is, connected up, that well.
I've been hearing more of that lately...he's nearly 80.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 11, 2010, 01:39:23 PM
I've been hearing more of that lately...he's nearly 80.
I'm starting to wonder about him. He started rambling on about the cost of upkeep on the building, and the way he was going I was waiting for him to say it was going to capsize or something.
Anyone know or like to issue a guesstimate as to the $money man$ behind door # 2.
They really put forth some unusual criteria for doing business with the, real estate end, of City Of Tulsa.
Strategy, possibly revealing, shortfalls of their own?
whoever it is is bound and determined to try and cast the Snyders in a negative light to get this deal. They were trying to push an angle of having the city put restrictions on the sell that would exclude the Snyders because they took grant money on they Mayo because it was a historical building. The further this goes along, the less I like these other guys.
So where was Omega Alpha a year or two back with their own offer? They weren't interested until someone else finally ponied up an offer. It's starting to piss me off what they are trying to do to queer the Snyder's deal.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 13, 2010, 11:36:38 PM
So where was Omega Alpha a year or two back with their own offer? They weren't interested until someone else finally ponied up an offer. It's starting to piss me off what they are trying to do to queer the Snyder's deal.
The way they sounded Monday is that they weren't interested until TDA got involved. It also gets me how Monday they were making complaints about how quickly this came about, tonight they were suddenly urging the council to push it through as fast as they could.
Oh, I should add that I talked to Tori afterwards, and now that they found out that they won't own the parking lot until at least 2028 they are going to have to reconsider everything and figure out what the strategy will be on parking.
Now, imagine the absolute worst outcome for this deal, double it, throw in some litigation against the city, add a sprinkling of regional or national embarrassment, put a bow around it, and that's a fair prediction of what will happen.
Quote from: custosnox on May 13, 2010, 11:56:59 PM
Oh, I should add that I talked to Tori afterwards, and now that they found out that they won't own the parking lot until at least 2028 they are going to have to reconsider everything and figure out what the strategy will be on parking.
The parking wouldn't be included? I guess they could work something out with the Civic Center garage which is pretty close.
So does TDA now have control over the property? Are they still going to wait 6 months to award? Have any renderings from the two proposals been released?
Typical Tulsa Charlie Foxtrot
Quote from: custosnox on May 13, 2010, 11:56:59 PM
Oh, I should add that I talked to Tori afterwards, and now that they found out that they won't own the parking lot until at least 2028 they are going to have to reconsider everything and figure out what the strategy will be on parking.
This sounds like it could significantly impact/reduce their $1 million offer. Meanwhile, the realized amount of any offer for this buidling continues to go down because the city loses money every day it remains in the city's/TDA's hands. Brilliant!
Quote from: Conan71 on May 13, 2010, 11:36:38 PM
So where was Omega Alpha a year or two back with their own offer? They weren't interested until someone else finally ponied up an offer. It's starting to piss me off what they are trying to do to queer the Snyder's deal.
Who is Omega Alpha anyway.......I have my ideas.....
Quote from: SXSW on May 14, 2010, 08:49:14 AM
The parking wouldn't be included? I guess they could work something out with the Civic Center garage which is pretty close.
So does TDA now have control over the property? Are they still going to wait 6 months to award? Have any renderings from the two proposals been released?
The parking is currently provided by lease to the city, with revenues going to pay the parking off. Once that is completed (estimated at 2028) then it would transfer over to the owners of the building.
8-1 passed to hand the building over to TDA to handle the sell of it, contingent on approval of the council. TDA now has six months to handle the deal, unless they apply for and get an extention on the time. If they do not complete the sell in that time period and do not get an extention, then it will revert back to the city.
Omega Alpha released this to the media after the Monday meeting
(http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/12480290_BG1.jpg)
I am still waiting on the images from Brickhugger. Lacy had surgery, so she is being a bit delayed in sending them. They include the renderings showing 5th street extending through the plaza, and circling around infront of the civic center.
Thanks for the info. That image is sort of what I had it my mind as to what could be done to the exterior. Keep the tan concrete but install new windows like this building in Fort Worth that was converted from an office building to a condo tower.
(http://ntreispictures.marketlinx.com/MediaDisplay/62/hr3254862-1.jpg)
Not so sure about the balconies though. Would like to see the Snyder's proposal.
Aaaaand the Snyders win. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100708_11_0_hrimgs188386
Strange - the TDA acted quickly and intelligently. Probably helps to have Manhattan Construction backing you if you want fast action.
Anybody have access to a higher-resolution site plan?
Quote from: Floyd on July 08, 2010, 11:09:02 AM
Aaaaand the Snyders win. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100708_11_0_hrimgs188386
Strange - the TDA acted quickly and intelligently. Probably helps to have Manhattan Construction backing you if you want fast action.
Anybody have access to a higher-resolution site plan?
Just saw that on KOTV.com. Glad to hear! But, like everyone else, I'd still like to see what their actual plans are. Renderings, site plan, etc.
I know they want to re-open 5th Street, which is a fantastic idea. Take that superblock back down to size.
Edit: Here's the tiny version of the site plan from tulsaworld.com:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100708_brickhugger000708.jpg)
I got this from a tweet from COT:
"Brickhuggers proposal is for 10 hotel rooms/floor, and an extended 5th St. providing front door access to old City Hall and Conven. Center."
http://twitter.com/tulsacouncilgov/status/13753922055 (http://twitter.com/tulsacouncilgov/status/13753922055)
Glad to hear this finally happened. I'm sure the Snyders will do a great job. And it's great that they're going to open up the street again. The fewer blocked streets downtown, the better!
I think that to qualify for the HP tax credits, they will have to maintain the original exterior look of the building. (Does anyone have more detail on what's allowed?) While I've come to admire the downtown library's architecture, I've never been able to appreciate the former City Hall. Hopefully, I'll be surprised. The plaza area could be amazing...instead of the concrete wasteland it currently is. Let's hope for some innovative landscape design to create a fabulous public space.
I'm optimistic. Anything they do will be a huge improvement over the status quo.
A higher quality pic would be nice, but I really like this concept. Opening up 5th Street makes all kinds of sense.
Also, does anyone know when we might try to push a new central library out to voters again?
The Police and Courthouse buildings are all kinds of old too, but I'm guessing we're stuck with those for awhile longer :(
Name a county in Oklahoma other than Tulsa and I bet they have a more appealing courthouse.
I was hoping 5th Street would reconnect with Frisco*, but it looks like the street will just be a circle drive at the end. It's still an improvement, but I'd really like to see them connected again.
* Corrected Elwood to Frisco.
If a new library is eventually built in another part of downtown (hopefully Blue Dome) it would make sense to see the current library turned into additional convention/meeting room space and connected to the hotel just to the west. That and the Page Belcher federal building getting demolished to make way for an urban park that connects the convention center, hotel, and BOK Center.
I'll be interested to see more renderings and a larger site plan that I can actually read. I have confidence the Snyder's/Manhattan Construction can pull this off. Wouldn't it be amazing to see this project and One Place at 3rd & Denver under construction at the same time?
Quote from: dsjeffries on July 08, 2010, 01:36:32 PM
I was hoping 5th Street would reconnect with Elwood, but it looks like the street will just be a circle drive at the end. It's still an improvement, but I'd really like to see them connected again.
You'd have to go under/over/through the Convention Center.
Putting 5th street through is the best part of the plan I've heard. No maybe all these groups feeding the homeless will quit making that the lunch spot.
Quote from: Floyd on July 08, 2010, 01:44:49 PM
You'd have to go under/over/through the Convention Center.
There's currently a driveway that leads directly from Frisco, south, all the way to 6th Street. It comes close to the front of the convention center but not under/through/in it. It's just at a different elevation than the current plaza.
This shows what I'm talking about: Bing Maps Street View of Civic Center (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q0rfbr7009mx&scene=16711811&lvl=1&sty=b)
Edit: I meant Frisco earlier, not Elwood. Whoops! (Though Elwood also exists and could be connected, too. Like Frisco, it serves as a driveway to the parking lot, of sorts.)
Ah, right - I was thinking Houston. Yeah, even just a narrow drive like what goes through former Main Mall would be useful as a cab stand, etc.
Quote from: Floyd on July 08, 2010, 02:15:14 PM
Ah, right - I was thinking Houston. Yeah, even just a narrow drive like what goes through former Main Mall would be useful as a cab stand, etc.
Anything to break up the superblock is good.
I'm glad to hear the Snyders won, what a boon to the area. I guess Roscoe was right in the end, they held out and wound up with $200K more. Makes you wonder if the other suitors were brought in only to up the ante.
TW responded to our requests for a more detailed rendering:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2010/a3graphic07092010.jpg)
I'm going to throw this out there--there's NO WAY they'll extend 5th st without completely rebuilding Civic Plaza. My understanding (from past discussions on this forum) is that the plaza is currently so structurally deficient that they can't even put water in the fountains or maintain gardens because of load bearing concerns. How are they going to build a new street?
Quote from: Floyd on July 09, 2010, 10:57:36 AM
TW responded to our requests for a more detailed rendering:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2010/a3graphic07092010.jpg)
I'm going to throw this out there--there's NO WAY they'll extend 5th st without completely rebuilding Civic Plaza. My understanding (from past discussions on this forum) is that the plaza is currently so structurally deficient that they can't even put water in the fountains or maintain gardens because of load bearing concerns. How are they going to build a new street?
At their presentation to the council, they Snyders had someone speak for them that says they had the area surveyed and checked by engineers that say that it would have no problem supporting the street.
just found a mention of the weight problem in a Tulsa World article
Quote
Sharrer smiles a little as the visitors inquire about a colorful penguin in the middle of an empty fountain in the plaza. The penguins were part of a Tulsa Zoo fundraiser and the fountain has no water in it because the water was too heavy for the structure, he explains.
I just wonder where he got his info at
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20081023_11_A1_TracyD757839
Quote from: Floyd on July 09, 2010, 10:57:36 AM
TW responded to our requests for a more detailed rendering:
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2010/a3graphic07092010.jpg)
I'm going to throw this out there--there's NO WAY they'll extend 5th st without completely rebuilding Civic Plaza. My understanding (from past discussions on this forum) is that the plaza is currently so structurally deficient that they can't even put water in the fountains or maintain gardens because of load bearing concerns. How are they going to build a new street?
Judging by this rendering they are going to reinvent the plaza, but I agree, the only way they are going to be able to add the additional building is go through the plaza deck, the parking deck below, and into the underground parking to reach any surface thats stable. And in doing so, jmo, the new buildings would eat up alot of the existing parking thats there.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 08, 2010, 09:15:13 PM
I'm glad to hear the Snyders won, what a boon to the area. I guess Roscoe was right in the end, they held out and wound up with $200K more. Makes you wonder if the other suitors were brought in only to up the ante.
Of course, based on the on-going costs to the city, the extra $200K was eaten up by the delay in selling the property.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/plaza.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/Plaza2.jpg)
I wonder about those plans. From what I understand they Snyders only got the building, not the parking area's around it.
KRMG was reporting this morning that the plaza is getting the kabosh in the snyder plan.
Quote from: sgrizzle on July 09, 2010, 12:12:54 PM
KRMG was reporting this morning that the plaza is getting the kabosh in the snyder plan.
Then they need to connect 5th to Frisco at the end. They could still keep sidewalks at the plaza level that connect to the convention center.
Quote from: dsjeffries on July 09, 2010, 01:13:30 PM
Then they need to connect 5th to Frisco at the end. They could still keep sidewalks at the plaza level that connect to the convention center.
Agree. There needs to be a better connection on that side of the convention center. If the Page Belcher ever is demolished and becomes a plaza it would make more sense to move the parking garage further west by the state office building, turn the new ballroom addition into more exhibit hall space (with loading docks facing Houston), and use the current garage site for a new ballroom expansion overlooking the plaza and skyline. This hotel would be on one side and the BOK Center on the other. It would really 'open up' that area to the rest of downtown.
And now there seems to be a problem with the parking situation. I was wondering when this would show up.
http://krmg.com/localnews/2010/08/old-city-hall-buyer-needs-park.html
Surface Parking Rules!
that has been the underlying theme for investing in Downtown..
The old images of downtown tulsa make me sad. No super towers (20+), but a building all over, crowded streets (with diaganol parking), and no empty lots. Stupid surface parking.
This isn't about surface parking. If the area had enough parking with a city hall full, it has enough for a hotel.
just a bit closer now
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100921_11_0_TheCit135701
Quote from: custosnox on September 21, 2010, 02:16:25 PM
just a bit closer now
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100921_11_0_TheCit135701
Eyes above the comments sections...always above the comments sections. Just a warning, it burned a few IQ points off the top. Now I've gotta go eat some sort of brain food.
Any word on the parking contract issue? I guess tomorrow's article should discuss.
I'm also curious if One Place and Brickhugger view each other as competitors or complementary.
Quote from: Floyd on September 21, 2010, 09:08:18 PM
Any word on the parking contract issue? I guess tomorrow's article should discuss.
I'm also curious if One Place and Brickhugger view each other as competitors or complementary.
I've been curious on how this is going to come about. I know that the issue was brought up before it was even decided on to sale, but hven't heard much about it since then.
Probably complementary. The projects are on two different scales.
Quote from: Townsend on September 21, 2010, 02:32:08 PM
Eyes above the comments sections...always above the comments sections. Just a warning, it burned a few IQ points off the top. Now I've gotta go eat some sort of brain food.
Damn it. Just like saying: "Don't look at that welding arc". What do I do? Look right at the damn thing...
My retinas are burned now. Thanks Townsend.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 22, 2010, 09:08:28 AM
Damn it. Just like saying: "Don't look at that welding arc". What do I do? Look right at the damn thing...
My retinas are burned now. Thanks Townsend.
I swear to Christ the last tv show they watched was brought to them by the letters A and R and the number 3.
Anyway, I'm pumped about more development.
Tulsa's Old City Hall Will Be Private Property Wednesday
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13304109 (http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13304109)
QuoteTULSA, Oklahoma -- Wednesday afternoon, the city of Tulsa's former city hall will no longer be a public facility.
City officials say a ceremony is planned for Wednesday, October 13, 2010 at 2 p.m. for the city of Tulsa, the Tulsa Development Authority and Brick hugger, LLC to sign the closing documents on the sale of the building.
In a news release, Brickhugger LLC paid the city of Tulsa, $1.2 million for the building.
The firm plans to convert city hall, the old council chambers and 250 parking spaces to a 200-room hotel and restaurant with surrounding retail development.
Brickhugger LLC plans to begin construction and remodeling efforts immediately.
City officials say the $1.2 million will go towards payment on bonds for the new city hall at One Technology Center.
In the world of downtown Tulsa development, this counts as speedy progress.
Quote from: DTowner on October 11, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
In the world of downtown Tulsa development, this counts as speedy progress.
8 months from offer to buy to closing the deal and handing over the keys, and it sounds like they are ready to go on the remodel. Does any one know a timeline for it to be complete?
SOLD!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101013_11_0_Itsfin82651
200 room aLoft Hotel, 20 apartments and 250 parking spaces with retail
Quote from: swake on October 13, 2010, 04:29:04 PM
SOLD!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20101013_11_0_Itsfin82651
200 room aLoft Hotel, 20 apartments and 250 parking spaces with retail
THEY'RE TAKING ALL THE PARKING!!!!!
AND TORY'S REALLY SHORT!!!
Glad another step has been taken.
Quote from: Townsend on October 13, 2010, 04:51:21 PM
THEY'RE TAKING ALL THE PARKING!!!!!
AND TORY'S REALLY SHORT!!!
Glad another step has been taken.
Speaking of parking, is the underground section there still as dim and dingy as it was about 12 years ago?