NEW DOWNTOWN MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT IN THE WORKS
As part of the development team, we are working with a local owner in the renovation of an existing office building into mixed-use residential/retail. This building is located within the Central Business District with easy access to off-site reserved parking, restaurants, and hotels.
We would welcome this forum's feedback regarding the types of retail and support services residential tenants would like to see in such a building, as well as feedback on the design basics. All units will be for tenant lease, not available for purchase.
The residential spaces will average approximately 840, 1180 and 1650sf. Current concept designs are for a true open loft space, meaning only the kitchen and bath will be built out with the rest of the space open to be independently designed with furniture and temporary partitions by the tenant. Each unit will have its own separately metered electric service.
The property will feature secure first floor access with lobby and leasing/management offices.
Loft design elements may include:
Original concrete ceilings, floors, and exposed columns
Floor to ceiling windows in most units
Average 10' ceiling heights
Custom kitchen cabinets with granite counters and glass tile backsplash
Full appliance package including refrigerator w/ice maker
42" x 60" Cultured marble showers with glass sliding doors
Granite vanity top
Multiple COX Cable outlets
There will be a centrally located, card operated (coin) laundry facility on the first floor. Conceptual plans also include a small community room and fitness facility.
It is the goal of the development team to make these units available for a monthly rental rate of less than $1/sf. Every design and construction consideration is being focused on achieving this goal.
We would appreciate your input to these questions:
1. Is there a market for these size units and does any one size appeal to you more considering the projected rental rate?
2. Do you think the projected monthly rental rate (LESS than $1/sf) is attractive when considering living in the Central Business District?
3. What commercial/support services would you want to have in the building?
4. Would you still be interested if the monthly rental rate fell within the $1.00-1.20/sf range?
Thanks
Will Wilkins
120 Development Group, LLC
While I am certainly interested in this, I must admit that I'd still prefer a condo-type arrangement, as I'd love to have control over the interior design and be able to build equity in the property.
Having said that, a pocket-sized grocery store would be nice (something the size of a convenience store with fresh food offerings) and could serve multiple residential clients in the CBD area (including Philtower, Atlas Life, etc.). A small coffee-shop (similar to Topeca) could also be useful for both residents and workers in the CBD.
Will, glad to hear this is going on. When will you be able to reveal the location? I would assume that TDA is well enough away from this deal, yes? ;)
I would suggest having laundry hookup space available, if at least for the larger units. Just a couple of electrical outlets and a vent.
The rent psf is VERY attractive in my book.
Is this near the ballpark in Brady?
Conan - TDA is not involved in any way with this endeavour.
Grizzle - We are looking into various options regarding laundry services and weighing the cost of providing per unit versus centralized services. All considerations are being geared towards keeping the cost of acquisition and renovation to a minimum so as to provide ample space, amenities and affordable rates.
SXSW - This project will be located in the Central Business District. At this time, I can not be more specific than that. I can say that it is not near the ballpark. Or goal is to renovate a sizeable existing building for residential occupancy with affordability in mind, while at the same time, decreasing the amount of available commercial square footage downtown that is going unused.
Thank you all so far for your comments. I hope to get many more in the coming days and weeks as we move this project forward. If you could please pass word on to anyone that would like to provide their input with regards to what is being asked, it would be much appreciated. The more we gather, the better we are able to fit the project to market demands.
Thanks
Will, one amenity I liked when I lived at Center Plaza was a dry cleaner pick up and drop off. IIRC, this involved someone to man a desk basically for a couple of hours in the morning and evening, I think Grindstaff's or LaMode would send a truck by daily for pick up and drop off. That could even be combined with concierge services or the pocket grocery turoby suggested- or heck all three.
They also had a small bar and a fitness center in one of the towers. Keep in mind they probably had 500 or so residents back then (I think there were about 10 apartments per floor plate over 19 resident floors in two buildings). Someone is more than welcome to correct me on that.
How many units are you talking about?
Glad to hear this, Will! (I'm currently looking for something affordable in downtown)
1) I would personally not want anything bigger than 840 sf. You might include some smaller units, too--around the 740 range. If you're gearing this toward YPs, most are single, so massive lofts (1600 sf is huge) might not be as appealing. And I appreciate that you're making them "true" lofts--I'm glad that people will have that option. A lot of people will like it. But there are also a lot of people who'd rather a real bedroom (myself included).
2) I think the prices are great.
3) Grocery grocery grocery. Local bookstore. Maybe a coffeeshop in conjunction with the bookstore.
4) As a recent grad just starting my career, it would be really hard to justify a higher price. But that's just me.
How many units will there be?
I am not really part of your target group (I prefer a single family dwelling in suburbia and am probably too old too.) but I offer my opinion as if I were accepting a transfer to Tulsa for a year or two.
Original concrete ceilings, floors, and exposed columns: I had nicer accommodations in college dorms and Navy Barracks. Not a plus for me. What will be the acoustic transmissions from one floor to the next? Is your ceiling separate from the floor above? Obviously a matter of construction.
Floor to ceiling windows: Not a plus. It would make me feel as if I were in a fishbowl. Not a show stopper either.
Tall ceilings: Good in the summer. Make sure there are some ceiling fans.
...granite counters...: I'd rather have a more finished look overall than fancy mag wheels on a rust bucket car. I suggest trading some of the cost of granite for some overall balance.
Full appliance package: good, especially for a rental unit.
Cultured marble showers and granite vanity top: Cost? More mag wheels on a rust bucket?
Cox: the only communication choice other than cell phone?
The built-in Laundromat is OK. Restricted access should make them as nice as in some of the nicer hotels.
Off site reserved parking. Is this a place I would be willing to leave a nice car for several days at a time? Any security? When my cousin lived near the Boston Commons (in Boston, MA of course) she rented covered space in a parking garage in case she couldn't find a spot on the street. Mostly she kept her surfboard sailboat there.
The price is probably reasonable in today's market but is more than I would want to pay for some warehouse space with a private bath. The fact that Tulsa is not a "no car required" town should decrease the premium for living "downtown". To me, "true open loft space" is another way of saying we don't want to spend the money fixing the place up but will charge you a premium for the privilege of living downtown in a city with minimal public transportation in a place with a trendy description.
Why is easy access to hotels required for someone with a place to live? Not enough room for guests? Guests cannot stand your snoring over the partition?
What kind of heating and air conditioning? Electric heat can be expensive unless the place is well insulated. Not a lot of choice on air conditioning beyond one big unit or several noisy motel style "under window" units.
Commercial/support services:
Groceries. More than a Quik Trip, less than a supermarket. Since I still have to have a car, I am unlikely to want to pay a premium for convenience at weekly buying levels for food. Being out of good ideas for dinner a few nights a week would make convenience worthwhile. I don't drink coffee but a coffee/donut shop would be nice for those that do, assuming there isn't already a Starbucks around the corner. Someone mentioned dry cleaning service. That would be good for the coat and tie crowd (I'm lucky enough to be business casual). Beer/wine/liquor store. A slight premium in price to be able to run downstairs for a bottle of Big Jamoke would be acceptable. A big premium would cause me to drive to a "discount" liquor store and buy a larger supply.
I realize that most of this sounds negative. My intention is to give some insight to what is attractive or not to the suburbanites that so many claim to want to attract. At some point you will have provided for all the 20 and 30 somethings that still accept contemporary cinder block and 1 x 12 boards as furniture. There is a big gap between there and the 5th Ave NYC crowd. A reasonably priced (my opinion is probably invalid on reasonable) place for older professionals but not CEOs should have a market.
A bakery! Would love a place to grab a dozen bagels for the office in the morning. If I were to live in the building I would love to have a place in the bottom floor that offered bagels/pasteries in the morn and a baguette for the evening.
Quote from: OurTulsa on December 29, 2009, 10:57:55 PM
A bakery! Would love a place to grab a dozen bagels for the office in the morning. If I were to live in the building I would love to have a place in the bottom floor that offered bagels/pasteries in the morn and a baguette for the evening.
I agree, this is something downtown really needs and would be very successful at both breakfast and lunch time. Something like Panera that serves bagels, pastries, coffee, and sandwiches.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 29, 2009, 07:01:33 PM
A slight premium in price to be able to run downstairs for a bottle of Big Jamoke would be acceptable. A big premium would cause me to drive to a "discount" liquor store and buy a larger supply.
Took this picture last wednesday
I'd like to second (or third?) useful retail on the ground floor. Probably the single biggest thing that DT needs (aside from residents!).
Is there a reason you chose rental units over condos? I mean, either way, more people living DT is a plus, but from a community development standpoint, owners are 1) far less transient and 2) house- and neighborhood-proud.
Edited to include big ups for Marshall's Jamoke Porter. I had two of those bombers over Xmas weekend and found myself in much higher spirits because of them. Mazel Tov, Mr. Marshall!
It's never a successful topic on TulsaNow until "Marshall's Beer" is invoked.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 30, 2009, 10:21:37 AM
It's never a successful topic on TulsaNow until "Marshall's Beer" is invoked.
Must...get....to....Ranch Acres.....more....Jamoke....needed!
Quote from: Conan71 on December 30, 2009, 10:21:37 AM
It's never a successful topic on TulsaNow until "Marshall's Beer" is invoked.
The rest of the internet has "Rule 34," "Godwin's law," etc. We have "Marshall's Law."
I would like to see a drug store with normal hours like an urban Walgreens or something. There is nothing like that near downtown. It can also provide groceries as well. Also, I always wished there was a Dunkin Donuts downtown because I like their coffee and it is affordable.
Thank you all for the continued effort. Hopefully we can get more as the days and weeks progress and as we make more information available.
So far we have:
Coffee Shop
Bakery/Panera type
Bookstore
Drugstore/Walgreens type
Grocery/market
Drycleaners/drop off-pick up
We vs Us - The local property owner has thus far determined he wants a long term investment in Tulsa's downtown, hence the rental vs condo
Conan - We are currently looking at between 56-70 units
dsjeffries - sizing is being determined based on building structure and column spacing. The smallest will be approximately 840 based on current conceptuals
Thank you all for your input, please keep it up.
Quote from: Hoss on December 30, 2009, 10:45:55 AM
Must...get....to....Ranch Acres.....more....Jamoke....needed!
Better hurry, I'm tempted to buy whatever they've got left...
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on December 30, 2009, 10:56:27 AM
I would like to see a drug store with normal hours like an urban Walgreens or something. There is nothing like that near downtown. It can also provide groceries as well. Also, I always wished there was a Dunkin Donuts downtown because I like their coffee and it is affordable.
CVS does urban stores in other cities, with a decent grocery section. Since they are now in Tulsa, hopefully they will consider it.
Ignoring the chicken-egg situation for the moment, what kind of population level is generally required to support the type of retail being suggested? One would have to include the fact that not everyone would shop in said store every day.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 30, 2009, 02:13:40 PM
Ignoring the chicken-egg situation for the moment, what kind of population level is generally required to support the type of retail being suggested? One would have to include the fact that not everyone would shop in said store every day.
given the scarcity of grocery stores near downtown, a potential store in this building would pull from many downtown residencies. plus the people who work downtown who want to grab a couple quick groceries before heading home. trust me, i live in sand springs and the potential to stop at a small grocery store downtown instead of super walmart is very, very appealing.
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 30, 2009, 01:38:40 PM
CVS does urban stores in other cities, with a decent grocery section. Since they are now in Tulsa, hopefully they will consider it.
Off topic but you know a good location for CVS/Walgreens, or even a large grocery store like Reasor's, would be the parking lot immediately to the east of the Warehouse Market by 11th & Elgin. It would serve both downtown and the Pearl/Cherry Street neighborhoods with good visibility along the highway and on 11th, plus they could share parking with Home Depot to the north. Maybe have this as your major grocery for the area while a smaller urban grocery in the CBD would be for downtown residents walking or biking to get just a few items. A nice setup for downtown and surrounding neighborhoods would be a large grocery at 11th & Elgin, CVS/Walgreens at 12th & Denver, Whole Foods/health food store at 15th & Boston, and small grocery/convenience store somewhere inside the CBD walking distance to Blue Dome and Brady.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 30, 2009, 02:13:40 PM
Ignoring the chicken-egg situation for the moment, what kind of population level is generally required to support the type of retail being suggested? One would have to include the fact that not everyone would shop in said store every day.
I work out of DT but stopping there for groceries on the way home is more on my way than many other places.
Also, I spend alot of time DT for fun so a store there would help me out.
Quote from: Nik on December 30, 2009, 02:21:12 PM
given the scarcity of grocery stores near downtown, a potential store in this building would pull from many downtown residencies. plus the people who work downtown who want to grab a couple quick groceries before heading home. trust me, i live in sand springs and the potential to stop at a small grocery store downtown instead of super walmart is very, very appealing.
Sorry if my post implied only the residents of the lofts being discussed. Clearly, other residents in the area would shop there too. Convenience shoppers already downtown would shop there. I doubt you would drive from SS to downtown on a regular basis solely to shop at the stores in question.
A specialty store could draw from a much larger area. In the late 80s, I bought a computer printer (Epson LQ 1000) from a store downtown because they had one to look at. I went in spite of parking meters and business hours not convenient for my other commitments.
Edit: Forgot to ask again, what population level?
The novelty of a grocery in the CBD for those living outside the CBD will wear off pretty quickly if there is limited parking within the block. No one wants to schlep groceries a few blocks unless they are schlepping them to their own place. Again it's our manditory auto lifestyle we are used to.
When I lived at Center Plaza from 1987 to 1989, the Homeland was still open at 11th & Denver. I would walk if I needed a bag-full or less. If it was the major shopping week, I had to take the car, and that still meant a few trips from the car to the elevator in the building.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 30, 2009, 03:13:39 PM
The novelty of a grocery in the CBD for those living outside the CBD will wear off pretty quickly if there is limited parking within the block. No one wants to schlep groceries a few blocks unless they are schlepping them to their own place. Again it's our manditory auto lifestyle we are used to.
I think there has to be plenty of parking unless the builder files for a variance so sadly, that might not be a problem for you.
Quote from: SXSW on December 30, 2009, 02:44:43 PM
Off topic but you know a good location for CVS/Walgreens, or even a large grocery store like Reasor's, would be the parking lot immediately to the east of the Warehouse Market by 11th & Elgin. It would serve both downtown and the Pearl/Cherry Street neighborhoods with good visibility along the highway and on 11th, plus they could share parking with Home Depot to the north. Maybe have this as your major grocery for the area while a smaller urban grocery in the CBD would be for downtown residents walking or biking to get just a few items. A nice setup for downtown and surrounding neighborhoods would be a large grocery at 11th & Elgin, CVS/Walgreens at 12th & Denver, Whole Foods/health food store at 15th & Boston, and small grocery/convenience store somewhere inside the CBD walking distance to Blue Dome and Brady.
I'm sure Reasor's is out since that would be pretty close to their 15th & Lewis location. However, I do know that that store is way too small for the business it does. I believe it's the busiest Reasor's in Tulsa and maybe the 2nd busiest after the new one in Jenks but it is really small. So maybe a 2nd location close by or a completely new store in a bigger location nearby isn't completely out of the question.
Quote from: Nik on December 30, 2009, 03:49:50 PM
I'm sure Reasor's is out since that would be pretty close to their 15th & Lewis location. However, I do know that that store is way too small for the business it does. I believe it's the busiest Reasor's in Tulsa and maybe the 2nd busiest after the new one in Jenks but it is really small. So maybe a 2nd location close by or a completely new store in a bigger location nearby isn't completely out of the question.
I don't think that's too close. They operate one at 41st & Yale, 18th & Yale, and 15th & Lewis. The 18th & Yale store is within two miles of the other two give or take a tenth.
Quote from: Townsend on December 30, 2009, 03:18:11 PM
I think there has to be plenty of parking unless the builder files for a variance so sadly, that might not be a problem for you.
The initial post mentioned "easy access to off-site reserved parking". Sounds like no (or a minimal number of) new parking spaces.
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 30, 2009, 01:38:40 PM
CVS does urban stores in other cities, with a decent grocery section. Since they are now in Tulsa, hopefully they will consider it.
I was in Dallas yesterday and the "urban" CVS there in the West End closes at 8 PM.
Kansas City and St. Louis both got their first downtown full service grocery stores in decades, and both are just incredible. Very nice and lots of fresh foods.
Cosentino's in KC:
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4533/kcsupermarket8659.jpg)
Schnucks Culinaria in St. Louis:
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5421/culinaria081109011.jpg)
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 30, 2009, 01:38:40 PM
CVS does urban stores in other cities, with a decent grocery section. Since they are now in Tulsa, hopefully they will consider it.
I concur. An urban CVS or Walgreen's would be great! The only convenient store is on main and they really only have food items. No headphones or drugs.
Any chance QT would design an urban store just for Tulsa since they are located here? After all, they started out as a convenient store only. They have their whole new deli line that seems to be doing well. Familiar name would work well downtown.
Quote from: swake on December 31, 2009, 08:04:00 AM
I was in Dallas yesterday and the "urban" CVS there in the West End closes at 8 PM.
At least it's there.
Quote from: DM on January 05, 2010, 02:03:51 PM
I concur. An urban CVS or Walgreen's would be great! The only convenient store is on main and they really only have food items. No headphones or drugs.
Any chance QT would design an urban store just for Tulsa since they are located here? After all, they started out as a convenient store only. They have their whole new deli line that seems to be doing well. Familiar name would work well downtown.
Good quandry. QT has more of an emphasis on ready-to-eat foods whereas Walgreen's or Drug Warehouse (I don't frequent CVS, so can't say) has a fair selection of staple items in addition to ready-to-eat, including boxed foods, canned foods, and even spices.
I hope Will talks to the QT folks and the US Drug, CVS, or Walgreen folks, that could be a good addition, but they will need the population numbers to justify opening a store in the area, and you can bet they've got a pretty sharp calculator.
Quote from: DM on January 05, 2010, 02:03:51 PM
Any chance QT would design an urban store just for Tulsa since they are located here? After all, they started out as a convenient store only. They have their whole new deli line that seems to be doing well. Familiar name would work well downtown.
I sent an e-mail to QT and Kum and Go not too long ago requesting an urban location to server Blue Dome and the core business district. QT sent back one of their generic thank you notes but Kum and Go replied with a real person that said they would have the appropriate department research it. I like Kum and Go. Their brand new location in BA at 61st and Lynn Lane is really well done.
I think QT considers its 15th and Denver store to cover all of downtown but it is too far from Brady, Blue Dome, and the core business districts to be useful. I never go there because it is too far to walk and not on the way home.
In my e-mails I mentioned that I would like to see the building come up to the sidewalk with entrances for foot traffic and have the gas pumps on the side of the building with a door on that side for auto traffic.
Quik Trip had a store at 4th and Main where the Quik Print is. It opened in the mid 70's, and then became something else in mid to late 80's. May's Drug had two different locations on main, one next to the Renberg's building and before that it was across from the Arvest building in the Joyce Building. You actually went down the stairs on the north side of the building to go into the store, this was back in late 90 early 91.
I might suggest "Engineered Stone" or "Solid surface" countertops for the kitchens, both are easier to maintain and resist staining and since they are rentals it could save allot of money long term (short term its about the same as granite) in maintenance and teaching tenants how to care for them.
On a related note as part of any welcome kit for new tenets instead of a welcome mate include a cutting board it doesn't have to be high end but it gets a point across makes people feel more welcome without having to talk to everyone like they are stupid. It is one of the most forgotten peaces of kitchen equipment and will save your countertops from lots of people who just don't know better.
It's been a while but we have been busy working on these conceptuals and finalizing things to move this project forward. Below is a conceptual floorplan layout of the residential floors. We will likely keep the unit numbers, layout but may work on the interior space and layouts of baths and kitchens.
Based on this, we will have approximately 70 units total with ground floor commercial and second floor office space. This is of course subject to change as we progress forward.
Your input would be great appreciated.
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7702/conceptsmall.jpg)
Do Units 5 -8 not have windows?
I do like how in every case you've attempted to provide some division between what could be a sleeping and living area.
If those are indeed windowless walls near the bottom and right of the floorplan I would flip unit 4 and put that layout in the corner with window walls on two sides. The natural light penetration would make that unit spectacular - you'd get a view from almost every angle inside the unit. Whereas in Unit 1 you can't really see the windows left wall windows from the living area.
OurTulsa...thanks for the comments. Just to clarify, there is full glass along the bottom and right hand side of the structure, so units 5-8 will have a lot of glass.
I would think once you got over 1500sqft you'd want to add a half bath or something. That size unit seems appropriate for 2-4 people and they would probably appreciate multiple facilities.
Will tenants be able to put up physical walls?
Then I'm sold on any of the corner units. Did you say where this building is located downtown? Got to be a nine? story buidling (or so). I'm wondering what I'll be looking over through the glass wall! Very cool!
In Unit 1 is there a way to flatten the built in closet/kitchen area so that more of the open area is exposed to natural light from two angles? Though maybe you want to retain at least one plan that moves closer to a traditional apartment layout though Units 3 and 8 also do this for you. I suppose someone could insert a door in between the spaces.
Quote from: TheTed on December 31, 2009, 12:19:22 PM
Kansas City and St. Louis both got their first downtown full service grocery stores in decades, and both are just incredible. Very nice and lots of fresh foods.
Cosentino's in KC:
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4533/kcsupermarket8659.jpg)
Schnucks Culinaria in St. Louis:
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5421/culinaria081109011.jpg)
The Urban Market in downtown Dallas http://www.urbanmarketdallas.com/ (http://www.urbanmarketdallas.com/)
I can tell by the description which building he's talking about. Wouldn't mind being one block from my office.
Quote from: sgrizzle on January 27, 2010, 01:36:48 PM
I can tell by the description which building he's talking about. Wouldn't mind being one block from my office.
6th & Boston? (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=600+S+Boston,+Tulsa,+OK&sll=36.15183,-95.988931&sspn=0.007823,0.008293&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=600+S+Boston+Ave,+Tulsa,+Oklahoma+74119&ll=36.150879,-95.988418&spn=0.007788,0.008293&z=17&layer=c&cbll=36.150875,-95.988405&panoid=TBVA5sjTPlElwgGu2I2mBw&cbp=12,299.51,,0,-3.5)
I don't know about the elevator configuration, but otherwise it's a match.
Edit: On further inspection I can't confirm the north-side window count matches...
There's 13 windows on the floorplan... only counting 12 via the google-map photo..
Edit Edit: Stepped outside to take a look for myself... window spacing works... The 2nd window along the top isn't actually there on this building. but the space for it is.
It's called the Enterprise building, yeah.
Something like that, sgrizzle. :) That confirms my speculations.
Glad to see the conversion of more office space to resi. This is what downtown needs, desperately.
Quote from: natedog784 on January 27, 2010, 02:21:30 PM
Something like that, sgrizzle. :) That confirms my speculations.
Glad to see the conversion of more office space to resi. This is what downtown needs, desperately.
Zombie poster, back from the netherworld.
Welcome back, natedog.
Sweet! I forgot about that building. A bakery in the corner space would be superb! I can so imagine grabbing a little something over lunch and walking across the street to the park (we do need some movable tables/chairs in that park).
Flat out awesome. I look forward to seeing/hearing about the progress.
Quote from: OurTulsa on January 27, 2010, 04:26:05 PM
Sweet! I forgot about that building. A bakery in the corner space would be superb! I can so imagine grabbing a little something over lunch and walking across the street to the park (we do need some movable tables/chairs in that park).
Panera would be good at that corner, with tables and chairs outside overlooking the park.
News Release - For Immediate Release
February 26, 2010
MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT COMING TO CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT
Contact: Will Wilkins (918) 902-0760 or Cecilia Wilkins (918) 902-8959
Tulsa, OK. – Local real estate investor David Sharp, completed his purchase of the Enterprise Building from Kanbar Properties on Friday, February 26th. The nine-story building, built in the 1950s, is located at 522 S. Boston Ave. and is approximately 140,000 S.F. Cecilia Wilkins with W3 Real Estate, LLC brokered the transaction and will market and lease the project.
Sharp is working with Will Wilkins, principal of 120 Development Group, LLC and Novus Homes, LLC, to redevelop this property into a mixed-use residential/commercial property. This project will look to provide affordable housing within the business core of Downtown Tulsa, near large employers, restaurants, hotels, and across from Centennial Park.
####
About Sharp Development, LLC. David Sharp is a local real estate investor and developer whose portfolio includes holdings in the Brady Arts and Pearl Districts.
About W3 REAL ESTATE, LLC. W3 REAL ESTATE, LLC is a residential and commercial broker. Cecilia Wilkins brokered the sale and redevelopment of the Atlas Life Building between SJS Hospitality, LLC and Kanbar Properties. She is currently pursuing other development opportunities within the business core and the Brady Arts District.
About 120 Development Group, LLC. 120 Development Group, LLC focuses on mixed-use and commercial development and has actively been promoting redevelopment and investment in Tulsa's downtown market. Will Wilkins has extensive experience in the design, construction, and marketing of moderate housing through Novus Homes, LLC his residential construction company.
Saw what looked like Office furniture moving into that building today. Wonder how long the payday loans places will last. Never see them get any business.
Will the glass facade stay? Would be nice to see that come off. Great to see more residential either way!
Quote from: Nic Nac on February 27, 2010, 01:29:18 AM
Will the glass facade stay? Would be nice to see that come off. Great to see more residential either way!
Hopefully they will change out the old glass for new, with perhaps some balconies added. Or at least some "faux" balconies and sliding doors. Would be neat if they took out the corner windows and made corner balconies that "went in" rather than stuck out from the building. Any of that would really help that building, at a glance, look residential versus just office.
Quote from: Nic Nac on February 27, 2010, 01:29:18 AM
Will the glass facade stay? Would be nice to see that come off. Great to see more residential either way!
He posted floorplans earlier and the glass was the same.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100301_32_0_DavidS308777 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100301_32_0_DavidS308777)
You can also see the News on 6 story here:
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12066691 (http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=12066691)
The Journal Record will run a story in tomorrow's edition as well. As more information is finalized through the design phase, we will keep you posted for your feedback and ideas. Thanks again.
Will
Kanbar putting several properties on the market:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100302_32_E1_TheKan824673
Savvy. He smells an up market. Let's hope he's right.
Errr... Wouldn't you wait until the market moved up to sell. Instead of selling thinking it is going to. They probably just want to get rid of the properties and into new investments.
Quote from: Trogdor on March 02, 2010, 09:49:48 AM
Errr... Wouldn't you wait until the market moved up to sell. Instead of selling thinking it is going to. They probably just want to get rid of the properties and into new investments.
He is selling his smaller properties for a small profit, but only to people who will convert them into something OTHER THAN office space. That leaves him holding the lion's share of the free office space while lowering the overall supply. Puts him in better position once demand starts moving up.
Good morning all. As we move closer to beginning the A/E portion, I wanted to continue to get your input as we move along. To that end, I have provided the most recent conceptual floorplan layout for the residential floors.
Two questions have come up that I would like to get feedback on.
1 - Earlier, many expressed an interest in some kind of separation between living and bedroom areas. Keeping that in mind, we developed this concept. Is this in keeping with your expectations of privacy?
2 - Given the desire for some separation and to still maintain an open feel, is placing the bedrooms towards the glass more preferable or towards the entry?
One reason we designed the concept to this point with the living towards the entry was for a darker living area for those that entertain and desire a darker environment for home theater displays, etc. Your feedback would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Will
The image is hosted on Flickr...please check it out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48824956@N05/4475872049/
are these rental only or are they available for purchase?
estimated price per square foot?
Quote from: brunoflipper on March 30, 2010, 10:38:13 AM
are these rental only or are they available for purchase?
Rental
Very similar to some I've seen in St. Louis. Around $ 0.70 to $0.75 P.S.F monthly rent.
I think you could get that in the heart of Tulsa.
Depends on how they are appointed.
My own preference would be to have the living rooom have the most windows. No way I would want to entertain in an enclosed space with no windows. Especially in an urban apartment set up in which space is limited. The view helps expand your entertainment space and ads interest. Plus its what your paying for and want to show off when you entertain. If you want it dark, thats what they invented those hangey downey things for,,,, drapes, I think they are called. My own dream for living in an urban environment would be to have my TV in a room that has views of a night skyline or buildings out the window. Thats the urban ideal. To hide that view only in the bedroom would be a shame. Nice to have it in the bedroom as well, but if I had to choose, my first choice would be to have plenty of windows in the living room over the bedroom.
I also like an open floor plan, especially as far as one bedroom apartments are concerned. This way everyone has the choice to leave it open, or enclose the room a little or a lot. You can put up a wall of shelves for instance thats see through or partly see through, or an entertainment cabinet system (with a tv that swivels from the living to the bedroom), or floor screens, drapes that can be opened or closed depending on your mood or how much space you want open at different times. The bedroom can even be designed to work as part of the over all entertainment/sitting area and living space when you have company over, then be more closed off during other times. The more versatility and openness you have in a small urban space, the better.
If you have two bedrooms, one of them could very well be closed off with a wall. But having one room open would be VERY nice.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 30, 2010, 12:14:57 PM
Very similar to some I've seen in St. Louis. Around $ 0.70 to $0.75 P.S.F monthly rent.
I think you could get that in the heart of Tulsa.
Depends on how they are appointed.
From the very first post in this thread:
Quote
1. Is there a market for these size units and does any one size appeal to you more considering the projected rental rate?
2. Do you think the projected monthly rental rate (LESS than $1/sf) is attractive when considering living in the Central Business District?
3. What commercial/support services would you want to have in the building?
4. Would you still be interested if the monthly rental rate fell within the $1.00-1.20/sf range?
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 30, 2010, 12:40:05 PM
From the very first post in this thread:
That's high. I hope there is a market for it.
Didn't the Tribune Lofts try this? I think they are now under a buck a SF and mostly leased, but it took them a while.
I like the design. . . especially the 1,672 sf units. Looks like the architect has made the most of each unit concept.
How many units are to be built?
Quote from: Gaspar on March 30, 2010, 01:18:20 PM
I like the design. . . especially the 1,672 sf units. Looks like the architect has made the most of each unit concept.
How many units are to be built?
9 story building, first floor is retail...
As a father of two I have no problem with spacious, cheap and flexible but I've tried a few dozen times to put 5 rooms in the 16-1700sqft units (3 bedrooms, kitchen, living) and the placement of the fixed amenities makes it tough. I'd rather see the kitchen/bath be located in the middle or up against a perimeter wall. You also lose about 100sqft to the entryway in the 1600sqft plans which is enough for a very large closet or office.
Here a couple of examples where I moved the bathroom/kitchen and then was able to have 3 large bedrooms plus either living room and dining separate or one large great room.
I would DEFINITELY say living room to the windows. I'm with theartist in that if the home theatre is a priority for someone they can draw the shades. Far more people will be attracted to your project for the urban view that it provides both day and night. For those units that will have alley views I would still want as much light as possible into the living rooms.
For me I would prefer having a closed bedroom or at least some partition. This would be especially true if it was near the entrance. People generally don't keep their bedroom as neat as the rest of the house so when guests come over this will be the first view. I understand that having the living room at the entrance solves this. Hard to cover everything.
Best of luck! Look forward to seeing it at completion.
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2010, 01:56:30 PM
9 story building, first floor is retail...
As a father of two I have no problem with spacious, cheap and flexible but I've tried a few dozen times to put 5 rooms in the 16-1700sqft units (3 bedrooms, kitchen, living) and the placement of the fixed amenities makes it tough. I'd rather see the kitchen/bath be located in the middle or up against a perimeter wall. You also lose about 100sqft to the entryway in the 1600sqft plans which is enough for a very large closet or office.
Here a couple of examples where I moved the bathroom/kitchen and then was able to have 3 large bedrooms plus either living room and dining separate or one large great room.
That's a really good point, grizz. Talk about a long, wide, useless corridor that could be used either as the kitchen or living area. Best utilization of space is key.
That being said, there are some pretty strange layouts on the left half of the floorplan.
And I know you're wanting true loft-style units, but there are a lot of people like myself who would rather have a bedroom with walls. There are a lot of places I'd like to live downtown, but a)they're too expensive and b) most don't have bedroom walls. The walls are a deal killer for me, and I suspect it is for a lot of other people, too.
Quote from: dsjeffries on March 30, 2010, 02:13:36 PM
That's a really good point, grizz. Talk about a long, wide, useless corridor that could be used either as the kitchen or living area. Best utilization of space is key.
That being said, there are some pretty strange layouts on the left half of the floorplan.
And I know you're wanting true loft-style units, but there are a lot of people like myself who would rather have a bedroom with walls. There are a lot of places I'd like to live downtown, but a)they're too expensive and b) most don't have bedroom walls. The walls are a deal killer for me, and I suspect it is for a lot of other people, too.
You cant make a wall of some sort? Reminds me of people who are looking at buying houses and go into one and go "Oh, no! this house wont do at all, the dining room walls are red and I hate red" I want to yell at the tv and say... Its just paint! Paint the danged walls! lol And when your renting, you cant tear down a wall if you want the space open, but there are a dozen different ways you can easily create a wall if there isnt one.
But all in all, I think his plans show a nice variety of offerings. Some units are open, some have walls. And in a lot of them you could quite easily switch the bedroom with the living on your own. Though it would be nice to have the bathrooms open into the bedroom.
In some units you can add walls easily and some are more difficult. I have no problem adding walls but I think in many of the Enterprise building floorplans it is very hard to effectively divide the space. My drawings above were showing where I could add walls and divide the space if the fixed amenities were moved. I also hold firm that anything over 1200sqft should be 1.5 or 2 baths to allow for families or for roommates.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 30, 2010, 04:47:56 PM
You cant make a wall of some sort? Reminds me of people who are looking at buying houses and go into one and go "Oh, no! this house wont do at all, the dining room walls are red and I hate red" I want to yell at the tv and say... Its just paint! Paint the danged walls! lol And when your renting, you cant tear down a wall if you want the space open, but there are a dozen different ways you can easily create a wall if there isnt one.
But all in all, I think his plans show a nice variety of offerings. Some units are open, some have walls. And in a lot of them you could quite easily switch the bedroom with the living on your own. Though it would be nice to have the bathrooms open into the bedroom.
There's a huge difference between paint and walls. One does not drastically affect the way you live; the other does. You make it sound too easy. "Just add a wall here, a door here and some electrical outlets here". It doesn't exactly work that way in apartments. I'm not talking about arranging tri-fold partitions or changing screens. I want walls. Good ol' stud and sheet rock walls. And doors.
And I agree with grizz in that the way the apartments are currently laid out would make it very difficult to divide the living spaces. I just hope they don't put all their hopes on people who want 'true lofts', because for every one of those people, there are 10 like myself who want a bedroom with walls. Provide a mix of both and it would appease my concerns... to me, it's like only investing in one company. Too risky on the business side of it.
FYI, I quick check of TribuneLofts.com shows they are almost completely occupied.
Mayo 420 opens in April and has walls in their units:
http://www.mayo420.com/floorplans.html
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2010, 09:21:42 PM
Mayo 420 opens in April and has walls in their units:
http://www.mayo420.com/floorplans.html
There ya go dsjeffries... walls. And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.
Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 30, 2010, 10:48:12 PM
There ya go dsjeffries... walls. And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.
Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.
Then if all those projects have walls, it might be good for this one to have no/fewer walls as a point of differentiation. We have few true lofts in Tulsa, loft projects generally don't have many walls, if they did they would be apartments.
I've seen the "no wall thing" done very well, but it becomes the responsibility of the tenant. It's a trendy fad.
9 times out of 10 it will be done poorly, or not done at all. Over time tenants will explore new ways of breaking down the space.
Here's where the danger lies. . .Your tenants will have far more power in marketing your product than you do. There will be several staged units that prospective tenants can look at, and I'm sure that these will be done by a professional decorator. However; As units lease, more people will visit tenant apartments (dinners, social events, family gatherings etc.) than will see the staged units. Most of these units will do a poor job of breaking up the space. Some will hang curtains, some will place odd partitions, and some will do absolutely nothing but throw down a couch.
Because you have given "control" of the space to the tenant, you are at the mercy of their sense of style. It's good to give people creative freedom over their living space, but you ultimately have to live with the image of the 12 foot long faux leopard skin curtain burned into the minds of your visitors.
Walls give structure and say "hang mirror here," and "put plant over here." They give you the ability as an owner to have some say in the design quality of your development. They also give you, and the tenant, control over low frequency sound, light, and temperature.
An architect will probably push the no-wall design because that's what's popular in the trade rags. I'm not sure how it will affect leasing. I would talk to the Trib guys and others to find out what units took the longest to lease and how fast those tenants turn over.
"Trendy fad"? Well its one looooooong lasting fad that has gone on for decades and decades (seen some great Art Deco era, open plan apartments 8) ). Centuries in some countries (gotta love that Asian design).
9 times out of 10, apartments WITH walls are done poorly lol. If the way someone elses decorating/design skills determined which place I chose, I wouldnt have bought my house lol. You should have seen what it looked like before. Having walls doesnt stop ugly, bad design choices lol. I have been in plenty of apartments in buildings downtown that look like crap design/decorating wise and that wasnt what would have given me pause from ever considering the property. I would just think.... wow these people couldnt decorate their way out of a paper bag. However, I have been in many a small apartment downtown and thought to myself... If only that wall wasnt there this could have been a much nicer and more open space.
Not saying that even the majority of apartments downtown should be without walls. but can only say that if I were to choose living in a small, urban space, I would like the option of having no walls in some of the areas so that I could create the space I wanted. And I think there are a lot of other people like me, and just as many dont think there are enough living options period downtown, there are comparatively even fewer, open space floor plans to choose from.
These are efficiency apartments...
by definition: no walls.
the apartments in that iconic University Club tower: no walls
Quote from: TheArtist on March 30, 2010, 10:48:12 PM
There ya go dsjeffries... walls. And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.
Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.
Actually, artist, the Mayo Hotel Lofts don't have walls. However, they have arranged the spaces very well so that the bedroom is still distinct from the rest of the space. There are SOME units that have walls (the larger ones) but the majority of them do not. Most of the Philtower Lofts
also do not have walls. Some have partial walls. Most of the Mayo 420 Building isn't built out, either--they have partial walls and no doors. Something Philtower, Mayo and Tribune have in common? High rent. So maybe I should have been more specific. There are very few
affordable places downtown that have walls. Average price of Philtower, Mayo and Tribune are all over $1000/mo. Renaissance is close to that, as well. For YPs like myself who are just starting out, and who want to live downtown, what are our options? We're automatically priced out of most apartments/lofts downtown. If we want walls? Better look somewhere else?
I'm not saying he should build out every single unit, but if these (and the Detroit Lofts) are our best hopes for "affordable" housing, there needs to be the option of having real walls.
And whether or not you think open lofts are a fad (and they are), it's
not a "decorating issue" as you put it.
Walls are not decoration. It's not an issue of dust collectors, bad paint or cheap wallpaper. And you
own your house. Apartments in Tulsa are usually
rented. That alone is a huge difference. If I bought a house without walls, it would be a different issue, because I could do whatever I wanted to with it. You can't do that in apartments.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 31, 2010, 09:57:13 AM
"Trendy fad"? Well its one looooooong lasting fad that has gone on for decades and decades (seen some great Art Deco era, open plan apartments 8) ). Centuries in some countries (gotta love that Asian design).
Sure, like everything else style related it is cyclical. The pendulum swings constantly in our definition of style. Fads don't die, they just sleep. Form changes frequently, but function lasts.
Being able to have a nice cool quiet sleeping area, with a style that is unique to other more active living spaces serves a set of functions that is important to people. Sure there are ways to do this with open spaces, but the invention of the door has never gone out of style. ;D
Quote from: Gaspar on March 31, 2010, 03:17:51 PM
Sure, like everything else style related it is cyclical. The pendulum swings constantly in our definition of style. Fads don't die, they just sleep. Form changes frequently, but function lasts.
Being able to have a nice cool quiet sleeping area, with a style that is unique to other more active living spaces serves a set of functions that is important to people. Sure there are ways to do this with open spaces, but the invention of the door has never gone out of style. ;D
Well of course "the door has never gone out of style", nor has the open floor plan. Its not one or the other exclusively, period, if we do one we cant do the other. You can have any style be either open plan or closed. From Egyptian and Roman, to Asian and Indian, French, Italian, to Art Deco and Contemporary, past present and future.
I love the door lol, but there are many instances where I would like to have, and would even prefer, an open floor plan. Or at least want to have the option. If you have walls in a tiny apartment, you cant tear them down. No choice or option there. But if you dont have walls, you at least then HAVE the option to do as you wish. Not having walls doesnt preclude having a private room, or a room that looks distinct from the rest of the place. You can make it as open and private as you wish, as similar or distinct as you wish. Its your choice. You have a blank canvas upon which you can let your imagination soar. Block it off as much as you want, keep it as open as you want. You can still make a wall, but you can make it out of anything you want. Solid, see through, little of both, one door, two doors, door on the left, door on the right, heck you can make a wall that is nothing but doors lol. Dream away and have fun with it. Without the wall, you have a whole lot more choices and options. Including having a wall with a door. lol.
And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here. Small apartment living. I doubt many of us would be able to afford all the space we would like in an urban/highrise setting. I know I couldnt. Space is going to be at a premium for most of us and every bit will count. And for those specifically looking for "affordable" living,,, they will likely be in spaces that will be much smaller than they would prefer. Thats why you see people living in one room apartments. I dont think people WANT to live that way, but its the best they can get. Same with small one bedroom and two bedroom apartments. You will want to use every trick in the book to try and make your "smaller than you would like" space; look, feel, and function like a larger space. Having no wall between a bedroom and the living area, allows you the ability to make the space you do have; look, feel, and live larger. .
Here is an efficiency apartment where they dont have a wall or even a divider between the bedroom, living room, and dining area. I cant imagine what a space like that would be like with walls and doors separating the rooms. It would feel microscopic. This way the living space feels larger.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3690/apartmentstudio.jpg)
Here is the classic, kitchen, dining combo open to the living space.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6130/originald6bd940681b65cb.jpg)
If you want to divide the bedroom from the living in a small, open plan apartment space there are pleeeenty of ideas and ways to do that.
The handy dandy wall of shelves for instance, can be as open or closed off as you like.
Very closed off, could even add a door if you wanted. With an open floor plan...you have the option and choice.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/434/apartmentwall.jpg)
Entertainment system, could have shelves on the other side. With an open floor plan...you have the option and choice.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6596/071508szfinalframe.jpg)
Little more open, could use drapery behind the shelves,,, if you wanted.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1118/apartmentcwave1.jpg)
If this were the bedroom side, imagine a desk in the middle, or spread further apart with the bed in the middle.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6986/apartmentp100849115.jpg)
An even more open, bookcase divider wall.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4518/apartmentroomdivid.jpg)
Here you can see a double sided approach with curtain in the middle. I have seen stuff like this at Ikea for dirt cheap.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1565/apartmentroomdivideriss.jpg)
Some other examples...
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6500/channelcenter3550133.jpg)
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/343/apartmentfutureofinteri.jpg)
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1820/apartmentwall2.jpg)
One neat thing I have seen done in a small bedroom space is to have a wall of shelving/closet space, a desk or whatever combo you want, and then have drapery hanging over the face of those. The bed can be put right up against that so that it looks like a wall of drapes behind your bed. You can leave the shelving open above the bed or hang a mirror or picture over the drapery right over the bed and have that be storage that you rarely get into. That way you can have your closet or shelf and desk space be as messy as you like, but then draw the drapery over them and it looks like a wall of drapes. You can even have this set up be the "back" of the wall dividing the living area from the bedroom and the drapery can go all the way to the wall as a doorway.
If you have a small, urban, apartment and want to make the space look and live larger, with an open plan you have the option to keep it as open and large/multi-purpose as you want, or make each space be as closed off and distinct as you want. let your imagination run wild. With an open floor plan, doesnt have to be open, doesnt have to be closed off,,, you have more options, more choices, more potential. Whats not to love with more? lol
Quote from: TheArtist on March 31, 2010, 09:09:03 PM
Well of course "the door has never gone out of style", nor has the open floor plan. Its not one or the other exclusively, period, if we do one we cant do the other. You can have any style be either open plan or closed. From Egyptian and Roman, to Asian and Indian, French, Italian, to Art Deco and Contemporary, past present and future.
Again, you're making this a style issue. It's not a style issue.
QuoteAnd lets remember what we are mainly talking about here. Small apartment living.
Actually, we're not talking about teeny-tiny apartments. Mayo, Tribune, Philtower, etc all have rather large floorplans. 760 sq ft is the smallest floorplan in the Mayo, and there are only a few that small. The rest are 1,000 and up. Many of the units in Philtower reach up to 1,800 sq ft. The picture below is not representative of any of the units in any of these buildings or the Enterprise, for that matter. There are some small apartments on Cherry Street that would fit this picture, but this isn't what we're facing or talking about here. According to Will, the units in the Enterprise will be roughly 840, 1180 and 1650 square feet. That's not exactly micro-living, either.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3690/apartmentstudio.jpg)
Quote from: dsjeffries on March 31, 2010, 10:10:43 PM
Again, you're making this a style issue. It's not a style issue.
Actually, we're not talking about teeny-tiny apartments. Mayo, Tribune, Philtower, etc all have rather large floorplans. 760 sq ft is the smallest floorplan in the Mayo, and there are only a few that small. The rest are 1,000 and up. Many of the units in Philtower reach up to 1,800 sq ft. The picture below is not representative of any of the units in any of these buildings or the Enterprise, for that matter. There are some small apartments on Cherry Street that would fit this picture, but this isn't what we're facing or talking about here. According to Will, the units in the Enterprise will be roughly 840, 1180 and 1650 square feet. That's not exactly micro-living, either.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3690/apartmentstudio.jpg)
Was mentioning style because of the post I had quoted, which wasnt one of yours.
I knew I should have reiterated or reworded some of my points better. And you just had to focus on that one pic lol. It was meant to be an example of how a completely open room can work, whether that room be the size in the pic, or twice that size.
One of the points I was trying to make in what I wrote was...No matter what size apartment you get in a desirable urban area, and in a highrise apt., its likely going to be smaller than a similarly priced house or apartment in other areas. I think I am cramped in my 2,000 sq ft plus house and have done all kinds of things to make it look and feel larger, including knocking out walls, raising ceilings, and taking out doors. Urban living, especially highrise urban living, will cost me even more and though you may not think 1100 sq ft is micro,,, its gonna feel REALLY small compared to what I am used to and feel I need. In other words If your used to having a certain amount of square feet and number of bedrooms in a typical suburban context, house or apartment, and then on the same budget move to an urban highrise type unit,,,, your likely to end up downsizing and trying to figure out ways to maximize your space. Whether that space is 700 sq ft or 2,000 sq ft, its gonna be smaller and likely feel cramped. (Just met with an old client who is having some hard times in this economy and is having to downsize to a 4,000 sq foot "little cottage" as she describes it lol.) Highrise urban living often means your going to have less space per your budget than you might want or need.
The other point is that no matter what size the unit, having a more open floor plan (doesnt have to be completely open or every bedroom open), allows for more flexibility and options. You can even close off the open space if you want. But the choice is there.
Quote from: TheArtist on March 31, 2010, 11:32:42 PM
I knew I should have reiterated or reworded some of my points better. And you just had to focus on that one pic lol. It was meant to be an example of how a completely open room can work, whether that room be the size in the pic, or twice that size.
But that's not what you said at all--you specifically said "And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here. Small apartment living."
QuoteOne of the points I was trying to make in what I wrote was...No matter what size apartment you get in a desirable urban area, and in a highrise apt., its likely going to be smaller than a similarly priced house or apartment in other areas. I think I am cramped in my 2,000 sq ft plus house and have done all kinds of things to make it look and feel larger, including knocking out walls, raising ceilings, and taking out doors. Urban living, especially highrise urban living, will cost me even more and though you may not think 1100 sq ft is micro,,, its gonna feel REALLY small compared to what I am used to and feel I need. In other words If your used to having a certain amount of square feet and number of bedrooms in a typical suburban context, house or apartment, and then on the same budget move to an urban highrise type unit,,,, your likely to end up downsizing and trying to figure out ways to maximize your space. Whether that space is 700 sq ft or 2,000 sq ft, its gonna be smaller and likely feel cramped. (Just met with an old client who is having some hard times in this economy and is having to downsize to a 4,000 sq foot "little cottage" as she describes it lol.) Highrise urban living often means your going to have less space per your budget than you might want or need.
And we're not talking about the difference in prices and sizes between suburban houses and urban apartments (or about someone downsizing and the pain associated with shedding 'stuff'). We're talking about walls that keep one's bedroom separate from other living space.
Having a majority of units without bedroom walls might seem like a good idea in theory, and for now, but wait 10 or 20 years. Does there need to be that option? Yes. Does it need to be 85% of the available units? No.
Quote from: dsjeffries on April 01, 2010, 09:47:55 AM
But that's not what you said at all--you specifically said "And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here. Small apartment living."
And we're not talking about the difference in prices and sizes between suburban houses and urban apartments (or about someone downsizing and the pain associated with shedding 'stuff'). We're talking about walls that keep one's bedroom separate from other living space.
Having a majority of units without bedroom walls might seem like a good idea in theory, and for now, but wait 10 or 20 years. Does there need to be that option? Yes. Does it need to be 85% of the available units? No.
You had said "teeny-tiny apartments" which is smaller than "small" lol. I said "small apartment living" which to me meant smaller than a house or large apartment. Ideally I would want an apartment or condo with 3 bedrooms. I live in a small house at 2,000 sq feet, so an apartment thats smaller than that, is ,,,, "Small apartment living" to me. Again, you said "teeny-tiny lol. I suppose you were thinking "small" compared to other urban apartments, but I was thinking "small" in the context of all housing options. Many people on here have said they would like to live downtown, but expressed the notion that they would have to downsize a lot, or pay a lot more in order live downtown. Those comments and my own perspective have colored what I am talking about.
Perhaps we are having a different perspective on what is "small" versus "teeny-tiny" is ;D.
If they want to add walls in 10 or 20 years, or next month,,, its easy to do. Much easier than taking walls out. And this one apartment building isnt the only one that has been built or will be built in downtown.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 01, 2010, 11:02:38 AM
I live in a small house at 2,000 sq feet...
LOL, the concept of a 2,000 sq foot house being small sounds so weird to me. I live in a 1,300 sq ft house, and I have a friend in a 900 sq ft house. I thought hers was a little on the small side, and mine as small-ish. But 2,000 sq ft?!? I don't know what to even put in that much space! :D
Quote from: TURobY on April 01, 2010, 11:09:39 AM
But 2,000 sq ft?!? I don't know what to even put in that much space! :D
How about some walls? ;)
Quote from: TURobY on April 01, 2010, 11:09:39 AM
LOL, the concept of a 2,000 sq foot house being small sounds so weird to me. I live in a 1,300 sq ft house, and I have a friend in a 900 sq ft house. I thought hers was a little on the small side, and mine as small-ish. But 2,000 sq ft?!? I don't know what to even put in that much space! :D
That is large by 1950's and 60's standards. My how we've changed. Looking at Florida beach front, finding 900 sq.feet is a task. Even the condos in multi story buildings average 1800.
Quote from: TURobY on April 01, 2010, 11:09:39 AM
LOL, the concept of a 2,000 sq foot house being small sounds so weird to me. I live in a 1,300 sq ft house, and I have a friend in a 900 sq ft house. I thought hers was a little on the small side, and mine as small-ish. But 2,000 sq ft?!? I don't know what to even put in that much space! :D
Stuff accumulates to fill the space available.
Will,
Read that the TDA will be tendering an amount to settle the suit.
This is an admission of the "breach of contract".. correct?
I know it is old news and you have moved on to another project, however,
tip of the hat for holding them to their actions..
Not that TDA has anything close to a good record.. This just one more thing in a long list of crap they have been responsible for.
Thank you all for the comments, we are taking them all into consideration as we begin to move forward on the architectual and engineering for this development. I will certainly keep everyone informed as new information becomes available.
Rico - Thank you, yes I saw the article in today's paper. Was quite surprising. So as not to conflict with this development, I am posting my comments related to that article on another topic to cover that. Thanks again.
Will
ARCHITECTS & ENGINEERING TEAM CHOSEN FOR MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT
COMING TO CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT
Contact: Will Wilkins (918) 902-0760 For Immediate Release
April 20, 2010
Tulsa, OK. – Property owner David Sharp and Will Wilkins of the 120 Development Group, LLC today announced the selection of architectural firm S Squared Architects for the re-development of the Enterprise Building located at 522 S. Boston Avenue in downtown Tulsa's Central Business District.
Consultants for S Squared Architects include Lancorp Engineering to provide engineering services for the mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems, with Wallace Engineering providing structural.
The Enterprise Building was recently purchased by David Sharp with plans to convert the nine-story building into a mixed-use residential/commercial development offering more affordable housing within the business core of downtown, near large employers, restaurants, hotels and the new Centennial Park.
S Squared Architects is a full-service architecture firm that has been in operation since 2005. The firm's principals have worked in the Tulsa area for the past 13 years on a diverse range of project types. Being Tulsa natives, they have a genuine interest in aiding in the revitalization of downtown. The firm's 'working principal' philosophy allows the principals to be directly involved with their clients and consultants at every stage of the design process, affording their clients highly integrated quality control during the entire process and ultimately delivering projects that their clients find exceptional, both fiscally and aesthetically.
Lancorp Engineering was launched in 2004, by principals Jim and Belkis Lane, as a full service, multi-discipline engineering firm that provides for mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and fire protection design. Lancorp Engineering is dedicated to sustainable urban renewal projects and is committed to designing engineering systems that deliver high performance inside and out.
Wallace Engineering is a structural and civil engineering consulting firm that was founded in 1981 by Tom Wallace. Based in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the firm has since grown to include additional offices in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Kansas City, Missouri and Castle Rock, Colorado; sixteen principals and combined staff of over one hundred thirty people. Wallace Engineering has personnel registered as Professional Engineers in all 50 states, Puerto Rico, District of Columbia, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
####
S Squared? Is that a new firm?
I can't find anything on them.
Who's the principal?
Gaspar - they are a fairly new firm, Principals are Paul and Carrie Shell, previously associated with GH2 Architects. They're website is www.s2archs.com
Great to see this progressing. What is the status of your other project in the Brady district? This one:
(http://www.s2archs.com/Brady.gif)
Where is this btw, on Main?
Quote from: SXSW on April 27, 2010, 02:35:34 PM
Great to see this progressing. What is the status of your other project in the Brady district? This one:
(http://www.s2archs.com/Brady.gif)
Is that the building across Main from Hunt Club?
Quote from: Townsend on April 27, 2010, 02:36:47 PM
Is that the building across Main from Hunt Club?
Oh NM, that's too many stories. Damn.
Quote from: TheLofts@120 on April 27, 2010, 02:05:23 PM
Gaspar - they are a fairly new firm, Principals are Paul and Carrie Shell, previously associated with GH2 Architects. They're website is www.s2archs.com
Very cool. I love to see jobs go to small firms rather than the big boys all the time.
Quote from: Townsend on April 27, 2010, 02:36:47 PM
Is that the building across Main from Hunt Club?
Unfortunately, I've heard the owner or owner's family is not interested in selling the building (old Ford dealership is what I've heard over the years and that the owner is in his/her 90's- not sure how true that is, I'm assuming Mary Ellen at the HC or one of the Matthews/Matheos brothers might know). It's got great potential for development and I love the tile work in the builiding. It would be fantastic mixed use.
Townsend:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=10422.msg84302#msg84302
and
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=11003.msg161439#msg161439
I think those threads relate to that project (unless there is a third project I missed at some point.)
Quote from: godboko71 on April 27, 2010, 02:52:41 PM
Townsend:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=10422.msg84302#msg84302
and
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=11003.msg161439#msg161439
I think those threads relate to that project (unless there is a third project I missed at some point.)
Thanks, I wasn't sure. I've had hopes for the old building on Main since I looked in the windows and saw all the tile work and the fireplace. Thought it was very cool. Carlton Place and I were sitting on the top level of the Hunt Club deck talking about what we'd like to do with the place if we had the means.
Quote from: Townsend on April 27, 2010, 02:57:12 PM
Thanks, I wasn't sure. I've had hopes for the old building on Main since I looked in the windows and saw all the tile work and the fireplace. Thought it was very cool. Carlton Place and I were sitting on the top level of the Hunt Club deck talking about what we'd like to do with the place if we had the means.
Where exactly is this on Main? The section between Brady and Cameron is fantastic (from an urban standpoint) while the sections to the north and south are empty lots and industrial buildings. It would be great to see a loft project similar to one I posted on one of these parcels. It's great to see two potential mixed-use projects in Brady and at 6th & Boston.
I don't think this will break anyone's heart, but fotd has been removed from this forum. Let's hope this brightens the attitude around here and people will post without fear of their opinions being belittled and discussions can go without disruption. Your voices have been heard. You're welcome.
Quote from: SXSW on April 27, 2010, 03:27:01 PM
Where exactly is this on Main? The section between Brady and Cameron is fantastic (from an urban standpoint) while the sections to the north and south are empty lots and industrial buildings. It would be great to see a loft project similar to one I posted on one of these parcels. It's great to see two potential mixed-use projects in Brady and at 6th & Boston.
I think it's Main and Cameron. You can see the back of the Brady looking South from the upper deck.
It's a block West of Lola's across the street or a block or so East from Cain's. There's some development happening around it thanks to Kaiser and some property and bar owners. I look over at Griffin's property with a stink eye every time I'm over there though.
Quote from: fotd on April 27, 2010, 03:32:43 PM
I don't think this will break anyone's heart, but fotd has been removed from this forum. Let's hope this brightens the attitude around here and people will post without fear of their opinions being belittled and discussions can go without disruption. Your voices have been heard. You're welcome.
Well, at least this time he didn't get a chance to do his famous 'someone has hijacked my account' meltdown.
While I know he is ultra-left liberal, and I identify as mainly liberal, he'd be qualified by me as a moon-bat.
OK, back to the topic at hand.
Quote from: fotd on April 27, 2010, 03:32:43 PM
Your voices have been heard. You're welcome.
Oh man, you hear the voices too?
Thanks for listening to them. And the little fuzzy bunnies came out of the woods and did their fuzzy bunny dance.
Props, mods, props.
I had no idea they had included that on their site, but they put a lot of work into it so I am happy they did. The Brady Lofts project was designed as a conceptual for potential use on a particular site located in Brady. The owners are looking at a couple of different uses and this is one we pitched.
We intentionally designed the project so that it could be situated to just about any half block site, provide the necessary parking and bring another level of affordable housing to the downtown market. We are currently looking at a couple of other sites to put this development. Will keep you posted on it.
And yes Gaspar, I agree with you...I think it will be a win-win using this smaller firm and am looking forward to working with them on the Enterprise.
Quote from: Townsend on April 27, 2010, 02:57:12 PM
sitting on the top level of the Hunt Club deck talking about what we'd like to do with the place if we had the means.
That sounds kinda dirty..
Have not heard anything about this in a while. I sure hope this project is not dead as it would be a great addition to downtown. Can anyone tell me the status of this project?
Hello everyone, its been a while since I last updated this post.
The Enterprise redevelopment project is moving forward. We completed the architectural and engineering drawings in November, performed some additional value engineering on the design and have recently finished the renderings for the project that will be released in the coming weeks.
We are currently in the financing phase of the development and once completed, we hope to begin construction in earnest.
The project will be comprised of 77 lofts residential units, 49 one-bedrooms (850-925sf) and 28 two-bedrooms (1,075-1,570sf) on floors 3 through 9. The second floor provides approximately 13,500sf of light office space and the ground floor will provide 4,512sf of retail/restaurant space on the building's South end facing 6th Street and 2,871sf of retail/bar space on the NE corner of the building facing Boston.
I'll let you know as soon as we release the rendered images to the media. I think you all will be pleased with the development.
Thanks,
Will Wilkins
120 Development Group, LLC
918-902-0760
Thanks for the update and glad to see this moving forward. :)
Can't wait to see the renders, and looking forward to seeing the dirt moving. Couple years from now that part of Brady is gonna look very different.
Quote from: TheArtist on February 04, 2011, 07:58:44 AM
Can't wait to see the renders, and looking forward to seeing the dirt moving. Couple years from now that part of Brady is gonna look very different.
I don't think this is in the Brady, isn't this the Enterprise Building at 6th and Boston?
Oh, my bad lol. I read "new drawings and design" and then thought of the hotel project.
Quote from: TheArtist on February 04, 2011, 08:44:48 AM
Oh, my bad lol. I read "new drawings and design" and then thought of the hotel project.
The isolation of being snow bound for a week is getting to you....
Quote from: swake on February 04, 2011, 08:38:13 AM
I don't think this is in the Brady, isn't this the Enterprise Building at 6th and Boston?
Can we have this topic's subject updated to be a bit more descriptive...
who knew there would be enough going on downtown that "new downtown mixed-use" wouldn't be descriptive enough.