"Hoping to continue Oklahoma City's renaissance, voters on Tuesday passed a far-reaching MAPS 3 initiative aimed at continuing citywide progress that began with the first MAPS in 1993.
Oklahoma City's golden age continues," Mayor Mick Cornett said at a watch party for the Yes for MAPS campaign as red, white and blue confetti blasted into the air. "Let's enjoy this. Let's take stock of who we are and keep in mind we're creating a city our kids and our grandkids are going to be proud of for generations to come."
The penny sales tax that will pay for the $777 million package passed with more than 54 percent of the vote with all precincts reporting.
Voter turnout was about 31 percent, about twice as high as a typical city election, said Doug Sanderson, Oklahoma County Election Board secretary.
The final vote was 40,956 yes, 34,465 no.
The MAPS 3 tax will last seven years and nine months when it begins April 1..."
Oklahoma City is continuing to push its status as not only a "break-through city (first major league franchise);" but, as a big league city.
These projects will be paid in full as the taxes are collected over a seven year period.
Read more (link & video): http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-voters-say-yes-to-maps-3-proposal/article/3423715?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0ZDJ9Wafl
MAPS 3 Projects Link: http://www.newsok.com/maps3
The Ford Center-NBA Hoops Tax 2008-10 will be extended and the Ford Center improvements & Thunder practice facility will be paid off in March 2010. The completion of the Ford Center Phase III and the Thunder practice facililty will be completed this summer - 2010.
That is an incredibly low voter turnout for such a big funding package.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 09, 2009, 11:56:02 AM
That is an incredibly low voter turnout for such a big funding package.
Oklahoma, it's how things are done 'round here.
No...it is how things are done around there. The story says that this was twice the voter turnout from a typical OKC city election.
That is one of my fears of non-partisan elections. The two party system has many faults, but people do get worked up enough to go to the polls.
No, it's how it's done here too.
QuoteRecords at the Tulsa County Election Board show that within Tulsa city limits there are 95,176 Republicans, 91,875 Democrats and 25,105 Independents registered to vote as of August 1, 2009. In the last three mayoral elections the average voter turnout was from 30 to 35 percent of all registered voters.
That's with the two party system getting us worked up.
http://www.gtrnews.com/greater-tulsa-reporter/4207/tulsa-independent-voters-a-growing-voice (http://www.gtrnews.com/greater-tulsa-reporter/4207/tulsa-independent-voters-a-growing-voice)
2009 Tulsa Mayoral general election[7]
Party Candidate Votes Percentage
Democratic Tom Adelson 24,211 36.34%
Republican Dewey F. Bartlett, Jr. 29,948 44.95%
Independent Mark Perkins 11,913 17.88%
Independent Lawrence Kirkpatrick 560 0.84%
Totals 66,843 100%
Voter turnout 29.84% Edited to add yesterday's turnout for Broken Arrow and Jenks:
http://www.tulsacounty.org/electionboard/EB_PDF/Election_Results/Election%20Results%20December%208,%202009.pdf (http://www.tulsacounty.org/electionboard/EB_PDF/Election_Results/Election%20Results%20December%208,%202009.pdf)
10.56%...STELLAR
That included the largest school bond election in state history.
It's how we do things 'round here.
What was the voter turn-out for the Islands in the Stream project?
Tax and spend....classic. Some pollster might want to correlate the votes from a partisan Federal election and compare attitudes of those who voted on Maps. Just guessing, but more of the same slush fund for the elite to manipulate taxes from the low end to the high end. What income groups turned out to vote? Who voted no and why? Do the voters generally vote republican because they fear tax and spend government?
With unemployment still climbing in this state, one would hope the government would be giving a hand up. Instead, drastic cuts and further hits to health, education, and local municipalities. Do you think those that can least afford it are paying a greater price than those who voted this in?
The OKC tax was for the banks and real estate investors but mostly their shill Chamber of Commerce.
OKshitty always was and always will be. The best thing going for them is Norman.
Tulsa sets a better example letting private foundations and philanthropic people who believe in giving back to their community take the lead with government assistance.
When does Vision 2025 part 2 come out? We need to compete with OKC. They are getting a fancy new Central Park and a street car.
We have a nice Central Park. We renamed it Centennial but its pretty nice too.
We also have a rubber wheeled streetcar operation. I see it lumbering around town occassionally. Sometimes with people on it.
Are you being sarcastic? I don't think Tulsans support the kind of things OKC has/is doing. We've had over a decade to compete with them if we wanted to and our V2025 projects have a different flavor to them.
I'm glad they passed it and wish them well. It will be worth a visit.
Quote from: Townsend on December 09, 2009, 12:29:28 PM
What was the voter turn-out for the Islands in the Stream project?
There was never a vote for that project
Quote from: Vision 2025 on December 10, 2009, 02:53:51 PM
There was never a vote for that project
My bad. The river improvement vote failed partly due to many people thinking they were voting on building huge islands.
Quote from: FOTD on December 09, 2009, 01:02:08 PM
Tax and spend....classic. Some pollster might want to correlate the votes from a partisan Federal election and compare attitudes of those who voted on Maps. Just guessing, but more of the same slush fund for the elite to manipulate taxes from the low end to the high end. What income groups turned out to vote? Who voted no and why? Do the voters generally vote republican because they fear tax and spend government?
With unemployment still climbing in this state, one would hope the government would be giving a hand up. Instead, drastic cuts and further hits to health, education, and local municipalities. Do you think those that can least afford it are paying a greater price than those who voted this in?
The OKC tax was for the banks and real estate investors but mostly their shill Chamber of Commerce.
OKshitty always was and always will be. The best thing going for them is Norman.
Tulsa sets a better example letting private foundations and philanthropic people who believe in giving back to their community take the lead with government assistance.
Or are you just hacked that OKC passed MAPS 3? The tax rate doesn't even change. OKC has been paying 8.375%
since 1993, I think people... rich and poor... are used to it by now.
Oklahoma City's public investment in this package is $777 million, yet private investment is hitting $5 billion.
How's that for private philanthropy? The Oklahoma City Museum of Art was private. Myriad Gardens improvements are
being funded by Devon. Many of the projects on the Oklahoma River are private. If it weren't for MAPS, Devon Energy
would have relocated to Houston. The company founder said so himself. Now they are in the midst of building a
$750 million office tower.
Sheesh, so much hate. Especially when Tulsa's Vision 2025 is public money.
Quote from: okcpulse on December 10, 2009, 11:41:49 PM
Or are you just hacked that OKC passed MAPS 3? The tax rate doesn't even change. OKC has been paying 8.375%
since 1993, I think people... rich and poor... are used to it by now.
Oklahoma City's public investment in this package is $777 million, yet private investment is hitting $5 billion.
How's that for private philanthropy? The Oklahoma City Museum of Art was private. Myriad Gardens improvements are
being funded by Devon. Many of the projects on the Oklahoma River are private. If it weren't for MAPS, Devon Energy
would have relocated to Houston. The company founder said so himself. Now they are in the midst of building a
$750 million office tower.
Sheesh, so much hate. Especially when Tulsa's Vision 2025 is public money.
No hate here....just am glad OKC is down the pike and not here in Tulsa. The state crapitol will always be better funded than T town.
You have me standing corrected.
How much will it cost in the future to maintain these projects and how will that be funded?
Devon is no sure bet....but they have a solid fix on how to enhance their property investments on the public dole...
Actually Devon is forgoing the $195 million TIF funds and returning them to the City for downtown improvements including $45 million for upgrades to the Myriad Gardens. They've advanced the City $90 million to get the projects started now.
I've lived in Tulsa or a Tulsa suburb since 1969. Right now, the only thing Tulsa has going for it that is better than OKC is the natural setting of the city. Otherwise, it's positively stagnant.
Oklahoma City's leaders and it's citizens have shown foresite, vision and the willingess to invest in improving their city with the passage of MAPS, MAPS for Kids, the MAPS improvements to the Ford Center and MAPS 3. Tulsa has been burdened by poor leadership and and leaders with no vision.
How many years will it be before Tulsa is officially a suburb of Broken Arrow, Jenks and Owasso?
This comparing the State Capitol to Tulsa gets old.
Many of us take pride in not being like OKshitty.
Tulsa is lucky not to have two major transportation lines running through it.
OKshitty is quantity driven. Let's continue to make Tulsa quality driven.
Oh. And good luck to Devon stock holders.
Quote from: MsProudSooner on December 11, 2009, 11:35:38 AM
I've lived in Tulsa or a Tulsa suburb since 1969. Right now, the only thing Tulsa has going for it that is better than OKC is the natural setting of the city. Otherwise, it's positively stagnant.
Oklahoma City's leaders and it's citizens have shown foresite, vision and the willingess to invest in improving their city with the passage of MAPS, MAPS for Kids, the MAPS improvements to the Ford Center and MAPS 3. Tulsa has been burdened by poor leadership and and leaders with no vision.
How many years will it be before Tulsa is officially a suburb of Broken Arrow, Jenks and Owasso?
Really?? Stagnant?? Look how many things have changed and improved just in the last 5-10 years here. Go downtown much? Drive Brookside? Notice all the improvements along Riverside from 11th St. on south? Improvements to our Fairgrounds?
Generalize much?
Quote from: JLCinOKC on December 11, 2009, 10:44:16 AM
Actually Devon is forgoing the $195 million TIF funds and returning them to the City for downtown improvements including $45 million for upgrades to the Myriad Gardens. They've advanced the City $90 million to get the projects started now.
How magnanimous of them to want to dictate that the property tax they would pay on their new building be directed to help the value of their vanity project building instead of going to schools and kids.
I thought Maps had a great plan, good project, very focused on downtown. And it was good that it's second phase was directed at schools, the schools in OKC were in a shameful state of repair and really needed the money.
Vision 2025 was a combo of the Maps and Maps for kids plans. It did schools (focusing on colleges which is where Tulsa's greater need was/is) and projects all in the same plan, but, the locations of the projects were less focused which was a mistake. The projects outside of the core scattered around may each have been a worthwhile project, but because of a lack of synergy are never going to do much for economic development, which was kind of the point.
The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.
But Maps3 is a different beast entirely. It takes the worst parts and mistakes of all the former plans and packages them up with just one single worthwhile project. The biggest project is a new convention center but they shorted the money for it and will either end up with a new center even smaller than Tulsa's newly redone center or one that's big and crappy, knowing Oklahoma City they will go big and ugly.
That paired with a new sterile park will create an area next to downtown called "core to shore", a massive mixed used retail, office and residential site that when combined with the new Devon tower will add millions of square feet of unneeded office and retail space in the center of Oklahoma City and will absolutely kill downtown and Bricktown. These projects will compete with downtown and Bricktown and suck all the momentum that Maps I created out of them.
Then there is money for pointless projects like "Senior Aquatics Centers" or some such fluff, and citywide sidewalks. And more money for the Oklahoma River, which is the kind of sterile, awful park experience you have to expect will be created next the new ugly convention center.
But, they are building a trolley line, which I really wish we would do.
In some ways Maps3 seems like they are trying to catch up with what we have already done with expanding our convention center, the redone Riverparks but they missed the best parts of 2025. Like the downtown housing fund. If they had spent only $150 million expanding redoing their current convention center and then set up a $150 million housing and retail development fund for their existing downtown and Bricktown, now that would have been something. As it is, they have passed a very bad plan.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 11, 2009, 12:22:08 PM
Really?? Stagnant?? Look how many things have changed and improved just in the last 5-10 years here. Go downtown much? Drive Brookside? Notice all the improvements along Riverside from 11th St. on south? Improvements to our Fairgrounds?
Generalize much?
I go downtown and love what is
finally happening down there. I think the BOK Center is the greatest thing to happen in Tulsa in decades. I never thought I'd be able to go see Paul McCartney in concert in the city where I live, but I did! All the other things you mention are good, but they are also long overdue. The things that have been done are great, but it is ludicrous for someone from Tulsa to riducle OKC for all t he timprovements they have made since 1995. Tulsa isn't in the position to riducule anyone.
Quote from: MsProudSooner on December 11, 2009, 01:52:21 PM
I go downtown and love what is finally happening down there. I think the BOK Center is the greatest thing to happen in Tulsa in decades. I never thought I'd be able to go see Paul McCartney in concert in the city where I live, but I did! All the other things you mention are good, but they are also long overdue. The things that have been done are great, but it is ludicrous for someone from Tulsa to riducle OKC for all t he timprovements they have made since 1995. Tulsa isn't in the position to riducule anyone.
Oh, okay, that wasn't the original point you expressed. I simply couldn't believe anyone could say we've been stagnant. All you have to do is read the papers and see how up in arms everyone is over the ballpark to figure that out. ;)
OKC has done some great stuff. I'm personally a fan of their river (I'm a rower, so I probably see it as less bland than Swake since it's become one of the best rowing venues in the U.S.) and Bricktown. I also do admire that OKC hasn't turned many of it's old architectural gems into surface parking. That's one area I do envy OKC.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 11, 2009, 02:07:56 PM
Oh, okay, that wasn't the original point you expressed. I simply couldn't believe anyone could say we've been stagnant. All you have to do is read the papers and see how up in arms everyone is over the ballpark to figure that out. ;)
OKC has done some great stuff. I'm personally a fan of their river (I'm a rower, so I probably see it as less bland than Swake since it's become one of the best rowing venues in the U.S.) and Bricktown. I also do admire that OKC hasn't turned many of it's old architectural gems into surface parking. That's one area I do envy OKC.
OKC hasn't?
We didn't level nearly as much as they did. Where do you think the land for all these new developments came from?
Google IM Pei and Oklahoma City to see what happened there.
Quote from: swake on December 11, 2009, 02:13:05 PM
OKC hasn't?
We didn't level nearly as much as they did. Where do you think the land for all these new developments came from?
Google IM Pei and Oklahoma City to see what happened there.
Swake, I've never approached it from a statistical viewpoint, I simply don't see acres upon acres of asphalt parking lots in downtown OKC like we've got pocked all over downtown Tulsa. It'd be one thing if we actually developed something on our lots and did more parking garages incorporated in their design. Tulsa has got to be the surface parking crapital of the world.
Swake,
A lots of foresight was put into development of MAPS 3.
Now that MAPS 3 has passed; OKC already is toying around with an NFL-style retractable roof stadium for MAPS 4 extension in 2017, our population should exceed --700,000 (City); 1.6 million (Metro) with 3.25 million in a 100-mile radius approaching 2020. We will be ready for the state's first Major League Football franchise.
As OKC continues its growth--Tulsa will grow also; there will be many companies that will find Tulsa equally attractive as OKC just being 90-miles away.
High speed rail will really help both cities connect.
I think the thing that has caused Tulsa the most problems are its aggressive-growth surburbs--Jenks, Broken Arrow, Bixby and Sand Springs are developing. Whereas--Norman, Edmond, Guthrie, Midwest City-Del City, Moore and Mustang want to remain bedroom communities to Oklahoma City.
I've lived in Tulsa before--17th & Peoria--near Tulsa Rose Garden and the Jewish Synagogue. Tulsa is beautiful and clean. I'm surprised that it hasn't boom-grown internally.
Oklahoma City's 650 square miles does afford it opportunities to grow and develop.
Quote from: Laramie on December 11, 2009, 04:20:24 PM
Swake,
A lots of foresight was put into development of MAPS 3.
Now that MAPS 3 has passed; OKC already is toying around with an NFL-style retractable roof stadium for MAPS 4 extension in 2017, our population should exceed --700,000 (City); 1.6 million (Metro) with 3.25 million in a 100-mile radius approaching 2020. We will be ready for the state's first Major League Football franchise.
As OKC continues its growth--Tulsa will grow also; there will be many companies that will find Tulsa equally attractive as OKC just being 90-miles away.
High speed rail will really help both cities connect.
I think the thing that has caused Tulsa the most problems are its aggressive-growth surburbs--Jenks, Broken Arrow, Bixby and Sand Springs are developing. Whereas--Norman, Edmond, Guthrie, Midwest City-Del City, Moore and Mustang want to remain bedroom communities to Oklahoma City.
I've lived in Tulsa before--17th & Peoria--near Tulsa Rose Garden and the Jewish Synagogue. Tulsa is beautiful and clean. I'm surprised that it hasn't boom-grown internally.
Oklahoma City's 650 square miles does afford it opportunities to grow and develop.
Not so sure about your assertions related to the OKC burbs. Norman, Edmond, Guthrie (not really a burb) and Midwest City have there own plans that don't call for sitting back and rely on the scraps falling from OKC's festival.
Norman a suburb of OKC? Not really.
Quote from: OurTulsa on December 11, 2009, 04:49:19 PM
Not so sure about your assertions related to the OKC burbs. Norman, Edmond, Guthrie (not really a burb) and Midwest City have there own plans that don't call for sitting back and rely on the scraps falling from OKC's festival.
Norman a suburb of OKC? Not really.
Careful, OT. I got skewered for expressing those beliefs the last time we had our OKC thread. Many people think its one long contiguous suburb around the city, especially to the south.
Quote from: waterboy on December 11, 2009, 05:38:10 PM
Careful, OT. I got skewered for expressing those beliefs the last time we had our OKC thread. Many people think its one long contiguous suburb around the city, especially to the south.
Living in central Norman, I'd definitely agree with the idea that Norman is not primarily a suburb of OKC. Anyone that thinks Norman is just suburb is incorrect- It has its own strong economy, character, and one of the best walkable/bikeable urban environments in the state stretching from downtown Norman to the OU campus. But there is a strong commuter suburb quality along I-35 in Norman and according to city-data.com, only 55% of the working population lives and works within the city.
But I would have to say I have had a similar perception to Laramie- that Tulsa's suburbs have stolen/tried to steal a lot of Tulsa's thunder in recent years. I was afraid when it looked like Drillers might follow the aquarium to Jenks, but Tulsa has gained some power and respect throughout its metro with the opening of BOK Center and construction of the ballpark. These attractions will hopefully help re-expose the Greater Tulsa to Tulsa proper and put the burbs back in their place.
Swake, I also agree that it would have been nice to see a DT housing fund like what was done in V2025. We have a lot of residential developments waiting for financing right now. I really wish we would have stolen that idea for MAPS 3. But the convention center was a politically important component and apparently there is a lot of demand for larger spaces, and there is no room to expand our current center (there are no parking lots or empty lots for several blocks in either direction). The low, low price of $280 million may be cheap compared to recently built convention centers around the country, but is not as cheap as it seems. There is the fact that MAPS projects are paid for in cash and therefore save tens of millions on interest.
I guess I kind of see your point that the slate of MAPS 3 projects are not perfect, swake, but I do not agree that they will undo or kill the progress that has been made in OKC since MAPS 1. The modern streetcar will have the greatest impact and hopefully encourage even more infill development in all of the downtown neighborhoods.
Quote from: swake on December 11, 2009, 01:02:43 PM
I thought Maps had a great plan, good project, very focused on downtown. And it was good that it's second phase was directed at schools, the schools in OKC were in a shameful state of repair and really needed the money.
Vision 2025 was a combo of the Maps and Maps for kids plans. It did schools (focusing on colleges which is where Tulsa's greater need was/is) and projects all in the same plan, but, the locations of the projects were less focused which was a mistake. The projects outside of the core scattered around may each have been a worthwhile project, but because of a lack of synergy are never going to do much for economic development, which was kind of the point.
The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.
But Maps3 is a different beast entirely. It takes the worst parts and mistakes of all the former plans and packages them up with just one single worthwhile project. The biggest project is a new convention center but they shorted the money for it and will either end up with a new center even smaller than Tulsa's newly redone center or one that's big and crappy, knowing Oklahoma City they will go big and ugly.
That paired with a new sterile park will create an area next to downtown called "core to shore", a massive mixed used retail, office and residential site that when combined with the new Devon tower will add millions of square feet of unneeded office and retail space in the center of Oklahoma City and will absolutely kill downtown and Bricktown. These projects will compete with downtown and Bricktown and suck all the momentum that Maps I created out of them.
Then there is money for pointless projects like "Senior Aquatics Centers" or some such fluff, and citywide sidewalks. And more money for the Oklahoma River, which is the kind of sterile, awful park experience you have to expect will be created next the new ugly convention center.
But, they are building a trolley line, which I really wish we would do.
In some ways Maps3 seems like they are trying to catch up with what we have already done with expanding our convention center, the redone Riverparks but they missed the best parts of 2025. Like the downtown housing fund. If they had spent only $150 million expanding redoing their current convention center and then set up a $150 million housing and retail development fund for their existing downtown and Bricktown, now that would have been something. As it is, they have passed a very bad plan.
Umm. Tulsa isn't OKC, OKC isn't Tulsa, and we shouldn't re-write history using 20/20 hindsight, wishful thinking and morphing previous plans or by being condescending about what OKC just passed......... that's my stream of consciousness after I read this post, Mr. Swake.
I like this perspective from former OKC Mayor Ron Norick
http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/4385/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQBzAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA
Quoteauthor=swake The Boeing deal was also a mistake, it was a very long shot and took the place of the ballpark and downtown library and lessened the amount of grant money for downtown housing and development and the river. Vision 2025 did some really good things too, relatively cheap and impactful upgrades to the convention center, the downtown housing fund, making the arena be more than just a throwaway building, but some pointless things too like widening streets in Broken Arrow.
I wouldn't be a proper "soccer activist" if I failed to point out some inaccuracies..... to my knowledge, a new ballpark was never seriously proposed to be a part of Vision2025, even though a new ballpark was included in Conventions, Sports and Leisure's 2003 feasability study. Former Mayor LaFortune made that point clear in 2002-2003. IMO, the Major League Soccer stadium that was going to be located off Brady was what was taken off the table; yet with a less "iconic" arena, we could've had both.... I assume the political reason at the time was that a soccer specific stadium financed primarily with sales taxes could have been used as a lightning rod by the opposition which could have affected passing the entire project.
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99933
I believe that the LaFortune people understood that appealing to countywide voting blocs would be critical in passing a countywide initiative. So, "widening streets in BA" or a new public pool may not mean much to downtown-only types, but it DOES mean alot to the people who live in those areas. There's a great deal of distrust of downtown-only projects. and alot of it can be traced back for decades.... the most recent examples being the River Tax, "It's Tulsa Time" and the half-baked list of projects offered in the "Tulsa Project" which included a downtown natatorium and 5k-seat soccer/track&field venue along with the arena...
Tulsa Project a No-Brainer for FansBy John Klein
Published: 10/13/1997
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=29&articleid=19971012_Sp_b1klein&archive=yes
"IF YOU like sports, and we assume you do since you're reading this, the Tulsa Project is a no-brainer.
You go cast your yes vote and we'll see you downtown at the NCAA Basketball Tournament. We'll be seeing you at Big 12 Conference and WAC championship events. You'll be checking out Olympic swimmers, divers, gymnasts and wrestlers.
You'll see exhibition NBA and NHL games. You will see, if Oklahoma City lands an NHL franchise, real NHL games.
The Tulsa Oilers, one of the top minor hockey franchises in the country, will finally get a regulation size rink and enough seats for every game.
Sometime in the future, Major League Soccer will be back in Tulsa.
How do we know this? It's our business to know these things. It's our business to talk with the people who make decisions in sports.
If anyone tries to tell you differently, ask them if they've ever spoken with Big 12 Commissioner Steve Hatchell, WAC Commissioner Karl Benson or Bill Hancock, director of the NCAA Tournament. Ask them if they've talked to folks with MLS.
All of them believe Tulsa is a terrific venue for sports events. They aren't interested right now for obvious reasons -- there's no place to play.
However, if you build it they will come. Don't let any of the opponents of the project tell you differently. We know for a fact." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I submit to you that Boeing wasn't a "mistake." It was likely the most popular of the four proposals for Vision 2025..... if the "Tulsa Project" and "It's Tulsa Time" couldn't pass but giving tax handouts to Whirlpool can pass, then the Boeing bid made complete political sense.... even if it didn't bring those jobs to Tulsa in the end.
I remember Oklahoma City voters being no different from Tulsa voters back in the '80s...... think the public outcry against the downtown ballpark is bad?..... it pales in comparison to the pi$$ing and moaning over the Myriad Gardens back when I was at OCU.... it was a "giant syringe" and it was "insane to put a big class tube in a hot southwestern city."
I seem to remember somebody from OKC describing a change of demographics that helped propel the MAPS projects; he seemed to think that enough old farts left town and enough anti-taxers moved away from the "big city" to places like Harrah and Yukon.....
These days, I think the problems with these kinds of projects for Tulsa is that Tulsans really are for smaller government; OKCers are for smaller
federal government.
Viva la difference!
Quote from: OurTulsa on December 11, 2009, 04:49:19 PM
Norman a suburb of OKC? Not really.
Actually, it is. Moore is just sandwiched between OKC and Norman.
Quote from: FOTD on December 10, 2009, 11:48:11 PM
Devon is no sure bet....but they have a solid fix on how to enhance their property investments on the public dole...
Excuse me? Devon is no sure bet? Construction has already started, and the building is already paid for.
And what gives you the idea that Devon is building on the public dole? It is all privately funded. Not sure what gave you that idea.
Quote from: okcpulse on December 12, 2009, 12:13:20 PM
Excuse me? Devon is no sure bet? Construction has already started, and the building is already paid for.
And what gives you the idea that Devon is building on the public dole? It is all privately funded. Not sure what gave you that idea.
Ok. Public assistance enabled those Devon directors to allot stockholder value into real estate....
Face it, had Tim McVeigh not lit the match, downtown OKC would have never ignited to the degree it has....those first Federal funds for Murrah Memorial got the ball rolling. Now, watch how Fed funds help New Orleans retain a vibrant city core especially with all those poor people washed out of their population.
Quote from: okcpulse on December 12, 2009, 12:13:20 PM
Excuse me? Devon is no sure bet? Construction has already started, and the building is already paid for.
And what gives you the idea that Devon is building on the public dole? It is all privately funded. Not sure what gave you that idea.
Remember what happened to OneOK? They scaled back the building. Don't think there aren't contingencies for that in case the petroleum industry or NG industry goes south in a hurry.
Quote from: Hoss on December 12, 2009, 02:23:00 PM
Remember what happened to OneOK? They scaled back the building. Don't think there aren't contingencies for that in case the petroleum industry or NG industry goes south in a hurry.
FYI....the Nat Gas is in a recessionary tale spin but nobody will tell you that out front and in the open....been a terrible year for producers.
Quote from: FOTD on December 12, 2009, 01:24:23 PM
Face it, had Tim McVeigh not lit the match, downtown OKC would have never ignited to the degree it has....those first Federal funds for Murrah Memorial got the ball rolling.
For the record FOTD, the original MAPS was passed on Decemeber 14, 1993. The bombing of the Federal building happened on April 19, 1995 almost a year and a half after the tax was passed.
Project 180
http://www.okc.gov/news/2009_12/Project_180_intro.html (http://www.okc.gov/news/2009_12/Project_180_intro.html)
Edited to add that this is not part of MAPS but it's a nice thing to go along with it.
Quote from: FOTD on December 12, 2009, 02:32:13 PM
FYI....the Nat Gas is in a recessionary tale spin but nobody will tell you that out front and in the open....been a terrible year for producers.
And not stellar for shareholders or companies who sell equipment to the natural gas industry either. :(
FOTD?
Quote from: FOTD on December 12, 2009, 01:24:23 PM
Ok. Public assistance enabled those Devon directors to allot stockholder value into real estate....
Face it, had Tim McVeigh not lit the match, downtown OKC would have never ignited to the degree it has....those first Federal funds for Murrah Memorial got the ball rolling. Now, watch how Fed funds help New Orleans retain a vibrant city core especially with all those poor people washed out of their population.
Dude, Where did you get your information?
I would love to see a link about what you just wrote! MAPS had nothing to do with the Murrah Building Bombing.
MAPS I was approved by the voters in 1993; the Murrah Building was bombed in 1995.
...Talking about stepping-off the turnip wagon, you must have boarded that little infamous yellow bus?
Quote from: Laramie on December 17, 2009, 01:14:18 PM
FOTD?
Dude, Where did you get your information?
I would love to see a link about what you just wrote! MAPS had nothing to do with the Murrah Building Bombing.
MAPS I was approved by the voters in 1993; the Murrah Building was bombed in 1995.
...Talking about stepping-off the turnip wagon, you must have boarded that little infamous yellow bus?
COWTOWNER! YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE TIMELINE. BUT DO NOT TELL ME THE MEMORIAL TO VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM HAS NOT HELPED IN ATTRACTING TOURISTS TO OKC!The long term picture in OKC is still cloudy. Who knows what your city officials will do to pirate funds for their own purposes in the future.....and can OKC keep up with all that differed maintenance? Looks like every time a renovation is needed it goes to the voters. That will not last forever.
Quote from: FOTD on December 17, 2009, 01:56:10 PM
COWTOWNER! YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE TIMELINE. BUT DO NOT TELL ME THE MEMORIAL TO VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM HAS NOT HELPED IN ATTRACTING TOURISTS TO OKC!
The long term picture in OKC is still cloudy. Who knows what your city officials will do to pirate funds for their own purposes in the future.....and can OKC keep up with all that differed maintenance? Looks like every time a renovation is needed it goes to the voters. That will not last forever.
Tulsa isn't exactly a perfect city. The constant bickering between city officials certainly has not elevated Tulsa has it? There are may good qualities about Tulsa but it's not a perfect city. No city is. That's the reality.
And maybe OKC is on its 3rd iteration of MAPS, but the first MAPS encouraged PRIVATE developers to pour $3 billion of their own money into downtown. Construction on the Devon Tower has begun. Project 180 is kicking off. Core To Shore will begin within the next several years (Core To Shore is not a public project). I think Tulsa should extend Vision 2025 because there is still more potential to be unlocked in that city. OKC is not trying to be better than other cities, OKC is only trying to tap into its own potential.
Quote from: FOTD on December 17, 2009, 01:56:10 PM
COWTOWNER! YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE TIMELINE. BUT DO NOT TELL ME THE MEMORIAL TO VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM HAS NOT HELPED IN ATTRACTING TOURISTS TO OKC!
The long term picture in OKC is still cloudy. Who knows what your city officials will do to pirate funds for their own purposes in the future.....and can OKC keep up with all that differed maintenance? Looks like every time a renovation is needed it goes to the voters. That will not last forever.
FOTD: Cowtowner? Listen up HomeSkillet: I don't know what your beef is with OKC; however, I sense that you had a bad experience in OKC because of your language (OKCshitty) and demeaner.
It's time for both cities to move on.
Seeing your pic and the composition and content of your posts; I know you're not as dumb as you look!
Quote from: Laramie on December 19, 2009, 12:46:20 PM
FOTD: Cowtowner? Listen up HomeSkillet: I don't know what your beef is with OKC; however, I sense that you had a bad experience in OKC because of your language (OKCshitty) and demeaner.
It's time for both cities to move on.
Seeing your pic and the composition and content of your posts; I know you're not as dumb as you look!
Yes. A lifetime of bad experiences with OKshitty....when a little boy, this devil asked the old man, "why do they have such good roads?" In other words, we are tired of getting the shaft up here from the legislature. They are a bunch of Neros while our school systems get melted down, our roads and everything else get second hand treatment. And it emanates from the State crapitol attitude that OKshitty deserves preferential treatment.
Sorry, we just feel more in line with green country than cowtown.
Quote from: FOTD on December 19, 2009, 01:32:49 PM
Yes. A lifetime of bad experiences with OKshitty....when a little boy, this devil asked the old man, "why do they have such good roads?" In other words, we are tired of getting the shaft up here from the legislature. They are a bunch of Neros while our school systems get melted down, our roads and everything else get second hand treatment. And it emanates from the State crapitol attitude that OKshitty deserves preferential treatment. Sorry, we just feel more in line with green country than cowtown.
Cowtown is Fort Worth, a very reputable city. Oklahoma City is getting the Bricktown flavor!
Quote from: FOTD on December 19, 2009, 01:32:49 PM
Yes. A lifetime of bad experiences with OKshitty....when a little boy, this devil asked the old man, "why do they have such good roads?" In other words, we are tired of getting the shaft up here from the legislature. They are a bunch of Neros while our school systems get melted down, our roads and everything else get second hand treatment. And it emanates from the State crapitol attitude that OKshitty deserves preferential treatment. Sorry, we just feel more in line with green country than cowtown.
Your school systems get melted down? So pass something like Maps for Kids. Your roads get second had treatment? Then pass a bond issue like our 2007 bond issue that will raise $835 million, $500 specifically for roads. Stop complaining about the problems and playing the ""Woah is me" card and be part of the solution.
Quote from: warreng88 on December 20, 2009, 01:23:38 PM
Your school systems get melted down? So pass something like Maps for Kids. Your roads get second had treatment? Then pass a bond issue like our 2007 bond issue that will raise $835 million, $500 specifically for roads. Stop complaining about the problems and playing the ""Woah is me" card and be part of the solution.
Kinda funny how the OKC shills come out of the woodwork when we badmouth their city. You guys have OKCTalk; why don't you stay there?
Let's show OKshitty we have a better tax idea up here....
A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF TULSA, OKLAHOMA ENCOURAGING THE OKLAHOMA STATE LEGISLATURE TO TAX MARIJUANA TO FUND LOCAL PUBLIC SAFETY AGENCIES:
WHEREAS, the sales tax base of the City is not sufficient to adequately fund police and fire;
WHEREAS, marijuana is a renewable resource which can generate increase funding of police and fire;
BE IT RESOLVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF TULSA ENCOURAGING THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO CREATE THE REGULATORY INFRASTRUCTURE NECESSARY TO TAX MARIJUANA TO BENEFIT LOCAL PUBLIC SAFETY AGENCIES. (read less)
A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF TULSA, OKLAHOMA ENCOURAGING THE OKLAHOMA STATE LEGISLATURE TO TAX MARIJUANA TO FUND LOCAL PUBLIC SAFETY AGENCIES:
WHEREAS, the sales tax base of the City is not sufficient to adequately fund police and fire;
WHEREAS, marijuana is a renewable resource which can generate increase funding of police and fire;
BE IT RESOLVED BY THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF TULSA ENCOURAGING THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO CREATE THE REGULATORY INFRASTRUCTURE NECESSARY... Type:Open: All content is public.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it OKshittians.
Quote from: Hoss on December 20, 2009, 01:27:23 PM
Kinda funny how the OKC shills come out of the woodwork when we badmouth their city. You guys have OKCTalk; why don't you stay there?
Cuz Laramie4OKC is their typhoid Mary?
FOTD, I prefer describing OKC as the "Cleveland of the South" over calling them a "Cowtown"-- it's my way of showing respect and giving them their "props"..... ;D
Quote from: USRufnex on December 20, 2009, 02:35:56 PM
Cuz Laramie4OKC is their typhoid Mary?
FOTD, I prefer describing OKC as the "Cleveland of the South" over calling them a "Cowtown"-- it's my way of showing respect and giving them their "props"..... ;D
USRufnex:
FOTD is a
PHOOL and a
Bafoon! (bă-fün')
1. (n.) One who is foolish and distinctly resembles a baboon.Origins: From buffoon, a clown or jester, and baboon, a relative of the ape family.);
I'm through dignifying his SH + 3 person singular pronoun = IT on this board, I'll no longer waste my time.
Please forgive the name-calling--I know of no other way to describe this guy--I really don't need to go there!
Lars,
Do you realize in OKshitty that the restaurant biz is down %15-20 for the year.
The only eateries up this year in the OKshitty area are McKey D's, Boyger King, Golden Coral, and Furrs....
Now, eat me.
(http://www.acmewebpages.com/graphics/ahdm01.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on December 22, 2009, 01:15:28 PM
(http://www.acmewebpages.com/graphics/ahdm01.jpg)
Build floats like that and I'd attend our parades.
"Face it, you F'd up. You trusted us."
Quote from: FOTD on December 22, 2009, 12:44:03 PM
Lars,
Do you realize in OKshitty that the restaurant biz is down %15-20 for the year.
The only eateries up this year in the OKshitty area are McKey D's, Boyger King, Golden Coral, and Furrs....
Now, eat me.
Eat you (?), that's quite a tall order and doesn't sound too apetitizing, I'll pass on this.
That's work with a capital W. I'm sure I would have to put a tenderizer on you and spank your rump roast with a meat hammer--now that might be fun!