In the article of the morning TW concerning the $100,000 dollars jobs is being compared with the salaries paid other department heads on the city payroll. What happened to comparing the salaries of department heads in the private sector?
This is an insult to the retirees who sit in cold houses with minimum lighting who have to pay several dollars in fee's before they can have a glass of water to take their life saving pills with. They are required to furnish some of their very limited income to pay these $100,000 dollars employees more than $25 to take a coffee break.
Is there something wrong with the system when even those seeking help from charity find that no funds are available?
Is there an answer?
I am at a complete loss trying to decipher the above post. Anyone else want to give it a go?
Quote from: TheArtist on November 21, 2009, 08:38:29 AM
I am at a complete loss trying to decipher the above post. Anyone else want to give it a go?
My take is: city department heads make too much money, and retirees shouldn't have to pay their water bill.
Morning jobs cost more than head. But with the right lighting, pills and a cold glass of water, retirees can insult coffee. Seek the system, it will make you available. That is the answer.
From the answer to the post I would assume those answering received their money directly of indirectly from the suffering taxpayer distributed to the city's some 6,000 employees or about equal to 80% of Tulsa two major employers AA and the bus manufacturer.
I didn't realize that Tulsa schools were that far behind in their reading curriculum. I am sure that one could find a fourth grader who could help the readers of the post and explain it to them. ;D
Quote from: shadows on November 21, 2009, 08:14:09 PM
From the answer to the post I would assume those answering received their money directly of indirectly from the suffering taxpayer distributed to the city's some 6,000 employees or about equal to 80% of Tulsa two major employers AA and the bus manufacturer.
I didn't realize that Tulsa schools were that far behind in their reading curriculum. I am sure that one could find a fourth grader who could help the readers of the post and explain it to them. ;D
Since you're already here....
;D
Quote from: Hoss on November 21, 2009, 08:23:13 PM
Since you're already here....
;D
I didn't make it through the fourth grade as the school burn and before they could raise enough money to rebuild, the school marm had ran off with a cowboy.
That was before families made a life occupation out of fanning the doors at city halls.
;D
I think this is the story.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20091120_11_A1_Whilet245962&archive=yes (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20091120_11_A1_Whilet245962&archive=yes)
Although the city is having to make cutbacks, not every position is optional. Indeed, it seems that many city positions are actually necessary.
For instance, I like it that when I call 911, someone answers the phone, and the hardware and software work...which enables the dispatchers to send emergency personnel to my location.
The article mentions that the City of Tulsa IT department (with hundreds of employees) has four people who make over $100,000.
This is not exceptional, except that it's such a bargain. In fact, I bet the City has a hard time competing with local corporations, who invaribly pay quite a bit more for every technical position (and never have to ask for unpaid furlough days...)
PonderInc:
That is the article that seems to be related to only 4 person under one department. The total number of so called department head making over the $100,000 poor boy salaries are not cited possibly because of the flack from a previous articles published on salaries. The 15 minute nonproductive coffee break cost the working poor of Tulsa $25 each day in salaries they pay. Think of the money that would be saved if these employee were to bring a thermo of coffee like those do in private industry.
The greater of saving on the budget would be finding a 8th grade student to read the articles and tell the citizens what they meant. The present information is like the preverbal blind persons describing an elephant'
A $100,000 salary would work out to $12 for a fifteen minute coffee break. I just wanted to help "shadows" with the higher math.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 22, 2009, 03:18:10 PM
A $100,000 salary would work out to $12 for a fifteen minute coffee break. I just wanted to help "shadows" with the higher math.
If there is 52 weeks in a year less 2 weeks vacation equals 50 weeks a year at 40 hours a week or 2,000 hours.
100,000 divided by the 2,000 hours is equal to 50 or $50 dollars an hour.
These figures do not take in consideration paid holidays and other perks which further the cost of coffee breaks v production time.
Morning break and afternoon break @ 15 minutes each equates to 30 minutes or ½ hour daily at 50 dollars a hour or $25 dollars coffee break time which is more than many people have for food.
Appreciate the correction but you might try the TPS on if there is an update on math.
Let me show what you wrote..."The 15 minute nonproductive coffee break cost the working poor of Tulsa $25 each in salaries they pay"
Pay attention to the word "each".
Anyone who expects any employee, private or otherwise, to be productive 100% of the time is fooling themselves. A few breaks make us more productive the rest of the time we are working.
I think the point is that people who make over $100k shouldn't get any scheduled breaks.... and if they don't like it, the city should do internal hiring and save money by getting 4th graders to work in the IT dept.... I hear they'll work for Snickers Bars and an X-Box....
Can someone please re-phrase my response in the form of a haiku?
Thanks in advance.
/sarcasm
Change Snickers for Three Musketeers and I'll be happy. (Actually Snickers are OK too.)
Quote from: USRufnex on November 22, 2009, 10:22:55 PM
I think the point is that people who make over $100k shouldn't get any scheduled breaks.... and if they don't like it, the city should do internal hiring and save money by getting 4th graders to work in the IT dept.... I hear they'll work for Snickers Bars and an X-Box....
I've done worse for less.
{shiver}
RM: I have corrected my mistake in the post you question. The actual cost to the retirees and working poor is much more when you add city paid health insurance and others perks. True, many of us draw on Medicare and we think the city furnished health insurance should equal only that offered by Medicare.
Before the now intelligent president is done with health insurance it may be.
In private industry when I worked there and the labor department recognized coffee break in their codes, Charlie Flint's companies blew a horn to begin the break and fifteen minutes later blew the horn showing it was over and the only thing they wanted to see was elbows and a$$ of the workers making 40 cents an hour. The last trips to city hall when looking for a person it was quite often said "they are taking their coffee break. On Friday afternoon it was "they are in a meeting this afternoon". The change will come as the town becomes a ghost town when the population cannot support the golden calf any longer and moves out.
Official Response:
We here at The City of Tulsa think we know that it is better to target magnetically than to actualize seamlessly. We apply the proverb "He who laughs last, laughs best" not only to our development but our ability to expedite. What does it really mean to iterate "intuitively"? A city that can engage elegantly will (at some point in the future) be able to unleash courageously. We will embrace the ability of web-enabled R&D to harness. Do you have a scheme to become distributed? We think we know that if you deploy nano-dynamically then you may also benchmark iteravely. What does it really mean to cultivate "efficiently"? We believe we know that it is better to synthesize perfectly than to morph efficiently. Think intra-dot-com. What does the commonly-accepted term "value-added, best-of-breed, efficient" really mean? It may seem stunning, but it's realistic! Think world-class. Think innovative. Think leading-edge. But don't think all three at the same time. It may seem disorienting, but it's realistic! At Tulsa, we believe we know how to iterate intra-holistically. We apply the proverb "When the cat's away, the mice will play" not only to our data hygiene but our aptitude to drive. If you expedite holistically, you may have to upgrade dynamically. We always brand co-branded iteration. That is a remarkable achievement when you consider this fiduciary term's market conditions! We will scale the capacity of technologies to integrate. We invariably reintermediate synergistic world-class accounting.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 22, 2009, 11:52:15 AM
Official Response:
We here at The City of Tulsa think we know that it is better to target magnetically than to actualize seamlessly. We apply the proverb "He who laughs last, laughs best" not only to our development but our ability to expedite. What does it really mean to iterate "intuitively"? A city that can engage elegantly will (at some point in the future) be able to unleash courageously. We will embrace the ability of web-enabled R&D to harness. Do you have a scheme to become distributed? We think we know that if you deploy nano-dynamically then you may also benchmark iteravely. What does it really mean to cultivate "efficiently"? We believe we know that it is better to synthesize perfectly than to morph efficiently. Think intra-dot-com. What does the commonly-accepted term "value-added, best-of-breed, efficient" really mean? It may seem stunning, but it's realistic! Think world-class. Think innovative. Think leading-edge. But don't think all three at the same time. It may seem disorienting, but it's realistic! At Tulsa, we believe we know how to iterate intra-holistically. We apply the proverb "When the cat's away, the mice will play" not only to our data hygiene but our aptitude to drive. If you expedite holistically, you may have to upgrade dynamically. We always brand co-branded iteration. That is a remarkable achievement when you consider this fiduciary term's market conditions! We will scale the capacity of technologies to integrate. We invariably reintermediate synergistic world-class accounting.
From Whom?
As we embrace teachings of ancient cultures we unfold a new and unforeseen land of opportunities on the hill that stretch the imagination of ways to service our core principles while remaining true to the paradigm shift necessary for future ensured profits in each of ways we preserve and conserve those among us with the right combination of training, hard work and faithfulness to the team that we know as family.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 22, 2009, 11:52:15 AM
Official Response:
We here at The City of Tulsa think we know that it is better to target magnetically than to actualize seamlessly. We apply the proverb "He who laughs last, laughs best" not only to our development but our ability to expedite. What does it really mean to iterate "intuitively"? A city that can engage elegantly will (at some point in the future) be able to unleash courageously. We will embrace the ability of web-enabled R&D to harness. Do you have a scheme to become distributed? We think we know that if you deploy nano-dynamically then you may also benchmark iteravely. What does it really mean to cultivate "efficiently"? We believe we know that it is better to synthesize perfectly than to morph efficiently. Think intra-dot-com. What does the commonly-accepted term "value-added, best-of-breed, efficient" really mean? It may seem stunning, but it's realistic! Think world-class. Think innovative. Think leading-edge. But don't think all three at the same time. It may seem disorienting, but it's realistic! At Tulsa, we believe we know how to iterate intra-holistically. We apply the proverb "When the cat's away, the mice will play" not only to our data hygiene but our aptitude to drive. If you expedite holistically, you may have to upgrade dynamically. We always brand co-branded iteration. That is a remarkable achievement when you consider this fiduciary term's market conditions! We will scale the capacity of technologies to integrate. We invariably reintermediate synergistic world-class accounting.
Well, the words are English. Beyond that it sounds like gobblety-gook to me. No wonder some immigrants don't want to learn English. I may give German another try or maybe even Spanish.
That's funny Gaspar, I thought Shadows was retired. He's returning emails for the City of Tulsa now?
It's all relative Shadows. I was just talking to a friend about her cousin in California that makes over $80,000 a year giving shots. She has no special training other than giving shots. My guess is that a comparable job in Tulsa pays $32,000. That probably sounds like a lot to you Shadows but is actually 1981 money when viewed within the context of National Standards. And that is not to say that living on a shoe string in Tulsa is not an important issue. It is important. It is tragic. And it's beyond me why the low income folks of Tulsa aren't rioting now. From your perspective it looks like city employees are living high on the hog. From another perspective government jobs are somewhere just above poverty level. We have City and County employees subsisting on food stamps in this town. And there doesn't seem to be any will anywhere to address these inequities.
Quote from: Hometown on December 22, 2009, 01:16:40 PM
It's all relative Shadows. I was just talking to a friend about her cousin in California that makes over $80,000 a year giving shots. She has no special training other than giving shots. My guess is that a comparable job in Tulsa pays $32,000. That probably sounds like a lot to you Shadows but is actually 1981 money when viewed within the context of National Standards. And that is not to say that living on a shoe string in Tulsa is not an important issue. It is important. It is tragic. And it's beyond me why the low income folks of Tulsa aren't rioting now. From your perspective it looks like city employees are living high on the hog. From another perspective government jobs are somewhere just above poverty level. We have City and County employees subsisting on food stamps in this town. And there doesn't seem to be any will anywhere to address these inequities.
I read something the other day that said the average Federal job is paying between $70 & $80K a year plus benefits.
It doesn't take much to find out. Go to USA jobs.com. The jobs, their classifications and pay scales are listed. The professional ones are around that level but its not comparable with the corporate world. Many of the jobs are temporary however, subject to government funding. Their job descriptions sound like Gaspar's rambling which also reminds me a lot of the Proctor & Gamble releases my wife used to get from corporate. Elegant, but silly.
HT, the job you describe isn't even close to $32,000 here in Tulsey. A phlebotomist may garner around $22k at a lab but even less at a clinic or private hospital. They still have to punch a clock and don't get to eat the free food the drug reps drop off!
The lowest paid of all are the county employees. Ironic that the county seems to be having no problem with budgets. Its on the backs of their employees who are often on public assistance.
Republic democracies have never in all recorded history been successful. It is based on formations of little kingdoms where each kingdom demands from the working poor unlimited income of which they set their own salaries and perks. It is not based on what money is available but is projected into the possible future income that is needed to be raised to support each little kingdom. There becomes a point where the balances of what the working poor can pay for the necessary services and what the kingdoms demand. Tulsa is reaching that point. It is time to reevaluate those kingdoms and start living within the income available. If one kingdom say they have 13 openings that need to be filled then if we are operating without them filled are they needed or is it the case of empty desks for managers that all the high price surveys come back with "you have too many already?"
It is time to lower the sails as there are turbulent waters ahead. The new mayor seems to see them as he is batten down the loose things on the deck.
Shadows, do you know who the largest employers are in this state? In this city? I would wager that public employees make up a substantial part of the workforce. It helps balance out small variances in the economy but when something big comes along, like this one, the workforce gets pared down and it happens across the board.
What you wish for (smaller government, more efficient government) is happening right now. That increases unemployment. People out of work either steal, cheat, reduce consumption or simply move away (erego less tax dollars for public services). You may not care much for government streamlining when cops and firemen are not responding to your particular emergency because they have reduced manpower to match revenues.
Waterboy;
I perceive your solution is that all persons should be on the public payroll and then there would be no unemployment. Unemployment did in the great depression breed the criminal element with Floyd and Dillinger as leaders of many others. Of course there were those who profited during the time within the political sector. At the time most of the working poor were placed on public works such as the CCC and WPA and etc,.
In the cities greed among the little kingdoms which have driven the public employees to living standards that are not acceptable to them, thus it has created a semi-criminal element in a faltering society. One-half of the world is in rebellion today as the little kingdoms gather forces against the producers of the revenue, in order to sustain their way of life.
In Tulsa the largest employer is AA but what part of those employees live in Tulsa seem to be a secret. Of course if one included conditions of the agreement and subsides granted them by the little kingdom, it would be very easy to include the working poor among the contributors to both public workers and AA. In today's world, location of industry is on the auction block on which little kingdom will contribute the most.
It took a world war to bring us out of the last depression. Can we avoid another world war as the electronic revolution is displacing the work force, creating another depression? We lash with furry the horses of the four horsemen in an effort to overrun the world. Come see!
Quote from: shadows on December 26, 2009, 11:54:04 AM
Waterboy;
I perceive your solution is that all persons should be on the public payroll and then there would be no unemployment. Unemployment did in the great depression breed the criminal element with Floyd and Dillinger as leaders of many others. Of course there were those who profited during the time within the political sector. At the time most of the working poor were placed on public works such as the CCC and WPA and etc,.
In the cities greed among the little kingdoms which have driven the public employees to living standards that are not acceptable to them, thus it has created a semi-criminal element in a faltering society. One-half of the world is in rebellion today as the little kingdoms gather forces against the producers of the revenue, in order to sustain their way of life.
In Tulsa the largest employer is AA but what part of those employees live in Tulsa seem to be a secret. Of course if one included conditions of the agreement and subsides granted them by the little kingdom, it would be very easy to include the working poor among the contributors to both public workers and AA. In today's world, location of industry is on the auction block on which little kingdom will contribute the most.
It took a world war to bring us out of the last depression. Can we avoid another world war as the electronic revolution is displacing the work force, creating another depression? We lash with furry the horses of the four horsemen in an effort to overrun the world. Come see!
I haven't the patience to sort out your post but a couple things are clear. Your perception of my solutions are in error. I don't see increased public employment as the solution to our economic crisis. However, I have never heard anyone in the last 50years portray our public employment picture in a positive light. Its always considered inneficient, bloated, overpaid and pretty much a drag on the economy. Most people fail to realize that government often takes on the assignments that private enterprise is unwilling or unable to do. Or those functions that have been abused by private capital.
Secondly, I assert that government employment in this state (fed,state,county,city) far surpasses AA or any other private employer. That isn't unusual for any organization for administrative staff to far outnumber line staff. It took hundreds of non combat military personnel to support each combat soldier in WWII didn't it? I assume you were there!
There is no comparison in averages when the city pays employees $100,000 and the working poor in private industry receives $24,000 and we define the average pay as $ 64,000 dollars. Still this working poor are suppose to be elated with the regressive tax system where the total contribution to the system falls on their shoulders.
There was a time when the working poor could go to city hall and look at the waste of manpower but I understand that has been closed off as the taxpayers got in the way of the city employees wandering around in the halls socializing.
There is no crisis on money shortage as it was caused by the uncontrolled mismanagement of the tax dollar. The city managers even pay for invoices on work that is not done. The departments meeting should be televised as they put together the need to operate a city for the benefits of the taxpayers. Put in your search engine HJR1003 and read why the governor veto it.
In WWll all resources were diverted to the war effort and there was a shortage of field managers. Civilians had to have a permit to buy a pair of shoes.
Really shadows...you need to release this bitterness toward city workers. You have railed against anyone employed by the city for years now on this forum. You never change your tune, instead just claim that they are all overpaid and somehow taking all the life from you.
I realize that you felt screwed by the city over three decades ago when they created stormwater management and didn't buy your house. Get over it. That was a long time ago and I am sure it wasn't personal.
You also don't speak for "the working poor". You have mentioned on this forum that you own rental houses. I don't consider slumlords poor.
Get over it. You are bitter and confused and nobody buys your act.
RM:
That is a typical response from an city employee who depend on the working poor that are growing less in numbers each day while the ever increasing numbers of city employees grow. I would believe that another desk would appear in city hall to create a department to measure the snow depths throughout the city when blizzards conditions exist in 25 year cycles or is there possible one in existence already.
I did not have any houses in the flood plain but when the pork chop retention pond was excavated and the dirt was placed in the down stream flood plain I did start looking at it. Look at any map of the Mingo flood plan and you will see that all flood controls cease to exist down stream from the tracks North of Pine as the creek meanders around until it empties into in Bird Creek.
Since the founding fathers hired a lamp lighter and street sweeper it now includes the old cliché that it takes five employees to change a light bulb. "one to hold the bulb and four employees to turn the ladder to screw it in".
Let it go when the coffee is burning and the people are starting to wake up. ;D ;D ;D
You are still confused. First, I am not a city employee.
Secondly, The city does not have more employees. Budget cuts have reduced city manpower each year for a while.
You are correct that Mingo Creek is channelized past Pine to the railroad tracks. The creek continues for the next three plus miles through airport land with no residential and commercial structures.
Do you think it would be wise to spend millions of more dollars to straighten a creek through land that will never be built on?
Tulsa was able to get hundreds of millions of federal dollars to protect citizens and property and now we rarely have any problems and also have the lowest flood insurance rates in the country. Why are you upset about this?
Quote from: shadows on December 27, 2009, 01:28:48 PM
RM:
That is a typical response from an city employee who depend on the working poor that are growing less in numbers each day while the ever increasing numbers of city employees grow. I would believe that another desk would appear in city hall to create a department to measure the snow depths throughout the city when blizzards conditions exist in 25 year cycles or is there possible one in existence already.
I did not have any houses in the flood plain but when the pork chop retention pond was excavated and the dirt was placed in the down stream flood plain I did start looking at it. Look at any map of the Mingo flood plan and you will see that all flood controls cease to exist down stream from the tracks North of Pine as the creek meanders around until it empties into in Bird Creek.
Since the founding fathers hired a lamp lighter and street sweeper it now includes the old cliché that it takes five employees to change a light bulb. "one to hold the bulb and four employees to turn the ladder to screw it in".
Let it go when the coffee is burning and the people are starting to wake up. ;D ;D ;D
I happen to live in that old flood plain (around the Traffic Circle) in the same house I grew up in from the age of 6 (1973) until I moved out (1986). Moved back in 2005 to help care for my mother.
I lived through the nightmare that was Memorial Day 1984. My father's maroon 1966 3/4 ton Chevy pickup truck remained on Channel 2 News ads for years (you remember this one right? The truck with a hard-hat floating inside of it? My dad worked at Sun Refinery until he retired).
The city's flood management plan is considered one of the very best in the country.
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=8679
So much so that, as the above newsrelease from 2003 stated, we were the first Class 3 rated floodplain by the insurance underwriters in the nation which is why we have the lowest flood insurance rates in the nation. So much so now that when the house I'm living in had a mortgage, they dropped the requirement of flood insurance. Cities came to us asking questions about how they should structure their floodplain management.
I remember what Mingo Creek used to look like in my elementery and Jr High years. I lived it. It was narrow and every time we had a hard rain, Dad and I drove to the bridges on both Admiral and 11th Street to see how high the creek was. The '84 flood was a nightmare that I'll never forget.
The city got it right with floodplain management. 'Plain' and simple.
I also remember a former Mayor LaFortune calling for a moratorium on building in certain areas of the city back in the 70s...... I remember certain Tulsans looking down their noses at anyone who lived anywhere near Mingo or Joe Creek..... eventually, karma kicked these people in the butt (1984).
After having a number of "500-year floods," the city finally did something.... that's right, THE GOVERNMENT, not private enterprise, fixed the problem.
And a couple of years ago, we had about the worst year I've ever seen in constant rainfall; while the picnic tables were underwater all summer long at Keystone, the city of Tulsa did NOT flood.
Pretty remarkable.
Quote from: USRufnex on December 27, 2009, 09:22:37 PM
I also remember a former Mayor LaFortune calling for a moratorium on building in certain areas of the city back in the 70s...... I remember certain Tulsans looking down their noses at anyone who lived anywhere near Mingo or Joe Creek..... eventually, karma kicked these people in the butt (1984).
After having a number of "500-year floods," the city finally did something.... that's right, THE GOVERNMENT, not private enterprise, fixed the problem.
And a couple of years ago, we had about the worst year I've ever seen in constant rainfall; while the picnic tables were underwater all summer long at Keystone, the city of Tulsa did NOT flood.
Pretty remarkable.
I'm confused by your statement. Who got their butts kicked by karma in the '84 flood those who were flooded out or those who supposedly looked down their noses at people living in the Joe and Mingo Creek flood plains?
I agree, this is a good government success story and is illustrative of an appropriate role of government in our lives. I guess I've taken it for granted and never thought of it as "remarkable" until now, but I can't argue with that adjective. I just hope you aren't implying a success story like this means government can manage all other things well in our lives.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 28, 2009, 12:15:21 PM
I'm confused by your statement. Who got their butts kicked by karma in the '84 flood those who were flooded out or those who supposedly looked down their noses at people living in the Joe and Mingo Creek flood plains?
I agree, this is a good government success story and is illustrative of an appropriate role of government in our lives. I guess I've taken it for granted and never thought of it as "remarkable" until now, but I can't argue with that adjective. I just hope you aren't implying a success story like this means government can manage all other things well in our lives.
I never took it foregranted, but I was also directly affected by its success. I was always a little surprised that my parents bought a house in a flood plain like this, but they survived it, and the house actually appreciated in value once the flood mitigation was completed.
How much they bought the house for? It sickens me now. In 1973 they purchased it for $14,500. We were lower to mid-middle income class if that. I can remember dad complaining about having to pay $120 a month for the mortgage payment. That's some people's I-Phone payment now. ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on December 28, 2009, 12:15:21 PM
I just hope you aren't implying a success story like this means government can manage all other things well in our lives.
But I think the point has been made: that the reverse stance of "anything the government is involved with is bad" is every bit as silly as saying that government is the answer to everything.
Rufnex's excellent point -- that the government steps in when a problem is too big for the private sector -- has been proven time and time again. While watching the PBS miniseries "The West," it was the government that bankrolled the transcontinental railroad nearly 150 years ago. That one railroad line opened the West to a huge amount of development, and its effects are still being felt to this day.
And I see that shadows is complaining about stormwater fees again -- right when the system is showing its usefulness by draining away the melting snow. :D
That dude's got the worst timing in the world. I bet he bought stock right before the big crash in 1929. Or kept putting money down that the Cubs would win the World Series.
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 28, 2009, 12:46:44 PM
But I think the point has been made: that the reverse stance of "anything the government is involved with is bad" is every bit as silly as saying that government is the answer to everything.
Rufnex's excellent point -- that the government steps in when a problem is too big for the private sector -- has been proven time and time again. While watching the PBS miniseries "The West," it was the government that bankrolled the transcontinental railroad nearly 150 years ago. That one railroad line opened the West to a huge amount of development, and its effects are still being felt to this day.
And I see that shadows is complaining about stormwater fees again -- right when the system is showing its usefulness by draining away the melting snow. :D
That dude's got the worst timing in the world. I bet he bought stock right before the big crash in 1929. Or kept putting money down that the Cubs would win the World Series.
Again, you point to another appropriate use of government- transportation infrastructure.
Yes seems the railroads were built by the English pound, with Chinese labor and awarded by our government by being given miles on land on both side of the road that did not even belong to them. It did open up the west because the natives did not divide the land into little plots but considered they were a part of nature.
In my childhood I was taken to overnight fishing trips where Mingo creek was filled to build the lumber yard on 21st street.
The designed of the flood control on the Mingo was not followed as designed and published in "Mingo creek, Tulsa, Oklahoma interim on the Verdigris river basin, Kansas and Oklahoma" by the assistant secretary of the army. The flood plain north of the RR belonging to the Airport Authority is in the planning stage at present to be fill increasing the flood potential within the city.
The US weather department does not record any rainstorm equal to the 24 hour rain storm in the 1984. I don't believe that it has even recorded any storm with half the rainfall since. We have had minor rainstorms where flooding have blocked streets and underpasses and low spots.
RM; sorry but I was under the impression you were associated with one of the little spin-off departments of the city.
I am not anti-government but for government that people can afford. There was a time when you had a pot-hole on your street you could call the Street Commissioner and get it fixed. Now you have councilors who are without authority, that cannot even suggest repairing it but will refer one to another department to be referred to another department, etc.
Quote from: shadows on December 28, 2009, 05:47:44 PM
The US weather department does not record any rainstorm equal to the 24 hour rain storm in the 1984. I don't believe that it has even recorded any storm with half the rainfall since. We have had minor rainstorms where flooding have blocked streets and underpasses and low spots.
The rain wasn't in Tulsa City limits but the rain in NE Oklahoma and Arkansas River watershed in the fall of 1986 made quite a mess of many things in the Tulsa/Jenks/Bixby/and down river areas. I remember Jenks being evacuated as I had some stuff at the Richard Lloyd Jones Jr / Riverside Airport then, and still do. The river was getting close to going over the top of the levy around Jenks.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 28, 2009, 06:06:54 PM
The rain wasn't in Tulsa City limits but the rain in NE Oklahoma and Arkansas River watershed in the fall of 1986 made quite a mess of many things in the Tulsa/Jenks/Bixby/and down river areas. I remember Jenks being evacuated as I had some stuff at the Richard Lloyd Jones Jr / Riverside Airport then, and still do. The river was getting close to going over the top of the levy around Jenks.
We went canoeing on a sod farm down in Bixby during the aftermath of the '86, quite memorable to say the least.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 28, 2009, 07:32:36 PM
We went canoeing on a sod farm down in Bixby during the aftermath of the '86, quite memorable to say the least.
I almost forgot, we had some stuff in a mini-storage along Memorial south of 151st that stayed dry by inches.
Quote from: shadows on December 26, 2009, 11:54:04 AM
It took a world war to bring us out of the last depression. Can we avoid another world war as the electronic revolution is displacing the work force, creating another depression? We lash with furry the horses of the four horsemen in an effort to overrun the world. Come see!
As long as the incessant, seven out of seven years capitalists (through the jubilee and beyond, for many already) ignore this factor, and continue to use their feigned speeches to hold fast the poor and unemployed under their tedious and unreasonable expectations, then they make themselves outcasts to the grace of God. The tokens they receive by making merchandise out of men's lives will turn into tokens of perdition.
While the people are working, eating, and sleeping, and are forgotten out of mind as dead, the time and place for those things passes after so long a time, and the necessary and good things become jeopardized: for our lives are not contained in those things alone. Proof of this tends to show itself suddenly like a thief in the night.
2 Peter 2:3
"And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. "
Quote from: Conan71 on December 28, 2009, 07:32:36 PM
We went canoeing on a sod farm down in Bixby during the aftermath of the '86, quite memorable to say the least.
I believe the Keystone lake was designed to hold 1 ½ inches of rainfall over its entire watershed basin. Having been at the weather bureau at the time the 1986 storm was approaching as seen on their radar. It was some 20 miles west of Tulsa moving to the North West up the Arkansas drainage basin. The weather bureau warned the corps to open the gates but there was a delay until the flood waters threaten to have breached the Keystone dam. Then the gates were opened and the downstream areas of the meandering Arkansas river flooded. The flood of 1986 is not on the table today of SWM. Instead we are going to place low water dams on the river that will restrict its flow in case of a reoccurrence of such a storm.
As the man from the Dallas office of FEMA said "even a farmer knows better than to build in the creek bed"
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Quote from: shadows on December 29, 2009, 03:01:27 PM
I believe the Keystone lake was designed to hold 1 ½ inches of rainfall over its entire watershed basin. Having been at the weather bureau at the time the 1986 storm was approaching as seen on their radar. It was some 20 miles west of Tulsa moving to the North West up the Arkansas drainage basin. The weather bureau warned the corps to open the gates but there was a delay until the flood waters threaten to have breached the Keystone dam. Then the gates were opened and the downstream areas of the meandering Arkansas river flooded. The flood of 1986 is not on the table today of SWM. Instead we are going to place low water dams on the river that will restrict its flow in case of a reoccurrence of such a storm.
As the man from the Dallas office of FEMA said "even a farmer knows better than to build in the creek bed"
.
I'm skeptical of that claim. The Corps doesn't take orders on opening dams from the NWS, the NWS does not have the data, nor expertise on floodwater management expecially on Corps projects to the best of my knowledge. All they can do is warn of imminent flood dangers from storms.
Quote from: shadows on December 29, 2009, 03:01:27 PM
As the man from the Dallas office of FEMA said "even a farmer knows better than to build in the creek bed"
What a demeaning attitude toward farmers. Too bad "city folk" aren't so smart. Ever wonder why nothing is built there?
Quote from: Conan71 on December 29, 2009, 03:34:51 PM
I'm skeptical of that claim. The Corps doesn't take orders on opening dams from the NWS, the NWS does not have the data, nor expertise on floodwater management expecially on Corps projects to the best of my knowledge. All they can do is warn of imminent flood dangers from storms.
Seems the dams on the Grand River were built for flood control. All three maintain a flood storage capacity. Flood storage pool on Gibson seems to be 18 feet.
Seems the weather bureau only advised the corps of the tropical storm that was making it way NW up the Arkansas basin and the amount of flood waters to expect. I believe the corps were advised, not ordered. they should prepare by increasing the flow as the flood pool would be filling fast.
Once the gates were opened the flood happened in the Bixby bottoms where the river overtime had moved leaving a potential flood plain on which the building were built.
Today's TW indicates that the new mayor has read some of the surveys Tulsa spent thousands of dollars for that pointed out Tulsa has an overburden of high price managers which would indicated the lack of underpaid labor.
Keystone was built for flood control also.
Quote from: shadows on December 30, 2009, 01:35:44 PM
Seems the dams on the Grand River were built for flood control. All three maintain a flood storage capacity. Flood storage pool on Gibson seems to be 18 feet.
Seems the weather bureau only advised the corps of the tropical storm that was making it way NW up the Arkansas basin and the amount of flood waters to expect. I believe the corps were advised, not ordered. they should prepare by increasing the flow as the flood pool would be filling fast.
Once the gates were opened the flood happened in the Bixby bottoms where the river overtime had moved leaving a potential flood plain on which the building were built.
Today's TW indicates that the new mayor has read some of the surveys Tulsa spent thousands of dollars for that pointed out Tulsa has an overburden of high price managers which would indicated the lack of underpaid labor.
I think anyone with a modicum of intelligence realizes many of our area lakes were built for flood control. I was simply taking you to task for the assertion that the USACE delayed in implimenting an order from the NWS to open flood gates. Yes, the NWS can and does issue flood warnings as is their purpose. The USACE manages flood waters amongst other things.
You lost me. Seems the rain gages of the USACE were not sending the information on the stalled tropical storm and NWS warned the USACE that they were not getting the proper information as a warning that they should lower the flood pool and prepare for more flood water than their gages showed. They did not order the gates opened. It was a duplication of the Fort Gibson flood also when the USACE failed to open the gates until it was to late.
The only reason congress approved the building of the lakes was for flood control and therefore approved the money to build them.
So, the IT department for Tulsa has about 230 employees with a combined salary of $12M. With a staff that big, 4 with a salary of over $100,000 is not that much. My question is, does Tulsa need an IT staff that big? I am an IT professional so I understand the importance of IT. But when my company went through layoffs, IT was the hardest hit. Of course, my whole company isn't much bigger than Tulsa's IT department.
A quick look through the staff, the IT department has 9 admin employees, 3 DBAs plus a DBA Mgr & DB Architect, at least 75 telecommunications employees. A lot of the titles are abbreviated so its a bit difficult to make them all out. The average salary for everyone in the IT deparment is about $51,600. Nevertheless, 230 seems like a lot to me. I'm sure if I knew what all they did, I might reconsider. But, unfortunately, we have to get back to fundamentals and must-haves. I tried to find out how many people the state has in their IT department, but I couldn't find anything.
Quote from: Nik on January 08, 2010, 09:05:14 AM
My question is, does Tulsa need an IT staff that big?
Having done an internship with City of Tulsa a few years back, I can give you what limited knowledge I have. I interned with Parks & Rec, which had exactly one guy handling the entire department's IT. That's a bit understaffed as is. Where would you cut from that department?
Are the 75 telecommunications employees are part of the 911 call center?