I vaguely remember something about streetscaping in the area of the new ballpark. Does anyone have details on this? It'd be nice if they just closed Elgin from just North of First street to the ballpark.
Pedestrian improvements in this area are badly needed, especially with all the people who'll be walking from the Blue Dome. Right now, there's not even a through sidewalk on either side of the street from First and Elgin to the ballpark.
I haven't seen any signs of construction in that area. Unless they dramatically widen the sidewalks and complete them, most people will end up walking in the street.
I was wondering the same thing and just figured they would continue the Elgin streetscaping already in place from 1st to 3rd with new sidewalks, street trees, and lamps all the way to 244. The pedestrian connection across the tracks at Elgin definitely needs to be improved.
The plans are new sidewalks, lights, landscaping, etc. This is supposed to be a new scheme similar in quality to what they've done in riverparks.
I have not seen details as of yet.
They might ought to be starting real soon if they want to be done by the first ballgame.
Quote from: TheArtist on November 09, 2009, 05:44:53 PM
They might ought to be starting real soon if they want to be done by the first ballgame.
+1 :)
Quote from: TheArtist on November 09, 2009, 05:44:53 PM
They might ought to be starting real soon if they want to be done by the first ballgame.
Well, right now, the road and sidewalk areas are both pretty much covered in dirt and construction equipment. Until they can get everything contained, they can't very well start the streetscaping.
Quote from: TheTedIt'd be nice if they just closed Elgin from just North of First street to the ballpark.
That is exactly what downtown
doesn't need--another closed street, another superblock. The reasons are compelling, plentiful and well-known, so I won't try to list them all, but I will say that cutting off another entrance to downtown certainly won't help the area or peoples' preconceived notions about downtown being difficult to navigate.
Quote from: dsjeffries on November 10, 2009, 07:51:13 AM
Well, right now, the road and sidewalk areas are both pretty much covered in dirt and construction equipment. Until they can get everything contained, they can't very well start the streetscaping.
That is exactly what downtown doesn't need--another closed street, another superblock. The reasons are compelling, plentiful and well-known, so I won't try to list them all, but I will say that cutting off another entrance to downtown certainly won't help the area or peoples' preconceived notions about downtown being difficult to navigate.
I agree, no more closed streets especially Elgin which is the most direct way to get to OSU from downtown. I would hope as OSU grows they reinforce the Elgin corridor as the gateway to campus.
Quote from: sgrizzle on November 09, 2009, 01:57:43 PM
The plans are new sidewalks, lights, landscaping, etc. This is supposed to be a new scheme similar in quality to what they've done in riverparks.
I have not seen details as of yet.
Id be interested too.
In the present economy, anyone wanting to put up more wasteful Acorn streetlights should have their head (and books) examined.
Quote from: dsjeffries on November 10, 2009, 07:51:13 AM
Well, right now, the road and sidewalk areas are both pretty much covered in dirt and construction equipment. Until they can get everything contained, they can't very well start the streetscaping.
That is exactly what downtown doesn't need--another closed street, another superblock. The reasons are compelling, plentiful and well-known, so I won't try to list them all, but I will say that cutting off another entrance to downtown certainly won't help the area or peoples' preconceived notions about downtown being difficult to navigate.
The worst part of that sidewalk is not affected by the ballpark, near the tracks. The sidewalk on the west side ends at a loading dock. The one on the right side looks like it's vintage 1800-and-something. What little sidewalk exists is the narrow residential-neighborhood type, which will be completely insufficient on game nights.
Also, I attempted to walk down Elgin from the ballpark area to OSU once. There's a two-foot-deep hole, the kind that could break your leg, where the sidewalk abrubtly ends under the IDL.
Elgin near the ballpark is a particularly good (or bad) example of our pitiful pedestrian conditions. It needs upgrading ASAP.
As far as closing, I should've been more clear. I was referring to game nights, maybe just weekend game nights. There's not much reason people need to drive on that little stretch of Elgin, but there will be lots of pedestrians.
It always seems ridiculous to me when a tiny sidewalk is packed next to an empty or underused street, as happens frequently during downtown events. The streets belong to everyone, not just cars. If pedestrians utilize them more fully than cars, then pedestrians' share of the street should be increased.
While we are on the subject, how is the new dense urban mixed use development going over there? Are the new proposals an improvement on the one that torpedoed? What? There hasn't even been any real talk about new proposals? Crazy, who saw that coming.
Pessimistic prediction: the ballpark will be done and will be done well, but when it opens and we draw NEW people with families and money to spend downtown - nothing else will be improved. It will be a largely dead pocket of town with crappy sidewalks, no manicured green space, no attached museum, no new development nearby, and no "A" street or designated improved corridor connecting it to other places to spend money in the Brady or Blue Dome districts.
Hence, the people will get used in the first season to going to the baseball game and then getting out of the area as soon as possible. Just as they did at Expo Square. >:(
I hope I'm wrong. Game nights make Bricktown in OKC alive before and after. In Des Moines it adds a ton of life. But if there aren't things in the immediate area for the suburbanite who thinks downtown is full of scary, scary things . . . they are unlikely to ever venture out to find things to do.
Bonus prediction: unlimited bitching about parking even though the Drillers will organize a well planned shuttle system, street parking is ample, and no other events are going on.
The trust is still planning on developing a few blocks on their own and there are already people living in new lofts within a block of the ballpark.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on November 10, 2009, 11:55:00 AM
Pessimistic prediction: the ballpark will be done and will be done well, but when it opens and we draw NEW people with families and money to spend downtown - nothing else will be improved. It will be a largely dead pocket of town with crappy sidewalks, no manicured green space, no attached museum, no new development nearby, and no "A" street or designated improved corridor connecting it to other places to spend money in the Brady or Blue Dome districts.
Hence, the people will get used in the first season to going to the baseball game and then getting out of the area as soon as possible. Just as they did at Expo Square. >:(
I hope I'm wrong. Game nights make Bricktown in OKC alive before and after. In Des Moines it adds a ton of life. But if there aren't things in the immediate area for the suburbanite who thinks downtown is full of scary, scary things . . . they are unlikely to ever venture out to find things to do.
Bonus prediction: unlimited bitching about parking even though the Drillers will organize a well planned shuttle system, street parking is ample, and no other events are going on.
I think your pessimistic prediction will be partially correct, but the parking lot across from Joe Momma's will almost have to be utilized. That will draw people to the surrounding businesses.
That is unless the OSU-Tulsa lot ends up being the main Drillers lot, the place where they run the shuttle from. It'd almost be better if that lot weren't promoted and used, as it's not gonna do anything to getting people to stay downtown.
I've been hoping they don't bring that stupid tram shuttle thing they had at the fairgrounds to downtown. Anybody who visits from out of the area will laugh at us mercilessly for that thing.
Does anybody know whether they'll have a parking shuttle? I really, really hope not. We're supposed to be aiming for a cosmopolitan downtown. Not some fairgrounds in a cowtown where walking (or waddling) three blocks is unfathomable.
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Buildings-around-new-ballpark-to-become-stores/ncJluK42_kGI6M4WYmJpig.cspx (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Buildings-around-new-ballpark-to-become-stores/ncJluK42_kGI6M4WYmJpig.cspx)
QuoteOutside the large walls and heavy metal of Oneok Field, a smaller project replacing pieces of Tulsa's history is underway.
1921 Race Riot building plaques will be embedded in new sidewalks around the Drillers baseball stadium.
The bricks are part of a larger street scape project that contractors say will change the appearance of downtown Tulsa.
"You want the patrons around the ballpark to come to a facility that really looks good, that is appealing and warm, and one they feel safe in," said developer Bob Jack with Manhattan Construction.
At least 500 trees will line several blocks of Elgin and Archer streets.
Before that, crews will resurface sections of Greenwood street by removing the street's top surface, and replace it with asphalt.
By the time it's over engineers say the area will have a unique look with an updated feel.
Some buildings surrounding the stadium will include small grocery stores with residential units on top. Developers also plan dozens of benches and LED lights that will line the streets.
So that sounds great but where's the rest of the story? Who are the developers and where are they getting these people to open "small grocery stores"? Not just one but multiple per this article.
I hope the ballpark is not like the BOK Center and it takes 2 years or more before anything is developed around it.
"1921 Race Riot building plaques will be embedded in new sidewalks around the Drillers baseball stadium."
Wow, there's just nothing that gives me warm fuzzies quite like reminding visitors to our city of our pathetic and ignorant racist past. :-\
Keep in mind Bricktown was there before the Ballpark in OKC and the canal was under construction at the same time as the ballpark. For what seemed like years nothing new happened in Bricktown after the ballpark was constructed. Seems like it took at least 5 or so years after ballpark was completed before the area south of Reno took off. The hotel on the north side of their ballpark was just recently constructed as were the housing in and around bricktown. Nothing that I can recall in terms of private development was under construction in concert with the ballpark. There was very little there - there around the ballpark though what was there was consolidated and certainly more concentrated than what we have between the Blue Dome and Brady.
Same with their arena. A hotel did get constructed on its east side shortly after but there was very little in terms of hotel space in downtown OKC to begin with (two others at the time). We just got a new (third) hotel downtown and one more's in renovation now. I don't count the Ambassador as being downtown but maybe it should be as well.
I think aggressive private sector development is on its way and the amount of people coming to games, events, and to downtown will increase each year.
The City is also getting ready to add on to their parking garage at 1st St. and Boston Av. Not that that helps the Ballpark directly but it helps with ther parking perception downtown. I also can't see why outside of handicap accommodations why we will need a shuttle to serve the ballpark - walk a few blocks in almost all directions and there's a glut of parking available.
Hopefully that parking at OSU-Tulsa is not made available. If everybody parks there, it's not gonna do much to get people to spend money at bars/restaurants in the area. If I were a nearby bar/restaurant owner paying this tax for the ballpark, I'd be doing all I could to make sure the OSU-Tulsa lot isn't used for ballpark parking.
The more events we have downtown and the more people we have going downtown, the more viable a regular and frequent "Trolley" route or two becomes. Once that happens, most of your parking problems are moot. People will get in the habit of using the "trolley". (yes I am putting trolley in parentheses for those trolley purists lol). Though the real trolley that Crowley had envisioned as part of the Downtown Master Plan would do the trick nicely.
Quote from: OurTulsa on November 19, 2009, 12:43:37 PM
Keep in mind Bricktown was there before the Ballpark in OKC and the canal was under construction at the same time as the ballpark. For what seemed like years nothing new happened in Bricktown after the ballpark was constructed. Seems like it took at least 5 or so years after ballpark was completed before the area south of Reno took off.
I remember downtown Denver when they built Coors Stadium (around 1994). At the time of completion, it was an amazing facility in an area that was...uh...full of potential. (At the time, it wasn't really considered safe to walk around most parts of downtown Denver at night.)
Within a few years, the area had been transformed. Now, all of downtown is thriving.
Not sure if we can attribute all good things in downtown Denver to the catalyst of the ballpark, but it sure seemed like it was the first (pioneering) project in a wave of downtown revitalization.
I got answers to many of the questions this morning.
Brady/Ballpark streetscaping was originally designed to be done as one project. There is a red tape issue with one of the main funding sources causing a delay in the start of construction. However they will go forward with the area surrounding the ballpark regardless and in fact are already pouring sidewalks.
Also, according to the current plan:
- No pavers
- LED lighting
- Downlights only
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 10, 2009, 10:24:12 AM
I got answers to many of the questions this morning.
Also, according to the current plan:
- No pavers
- LED lighting
- Downlights only
Im sure this is well meaning, but...
"Downlights", "lights pointed down" etc. are essentially meaningless phrases thrown around by development attorneys at neighborhood meetings.
Quantifiable, industry-recognized terms (like "IES Full Cutoff") actually impart useful information, and show that the architects have done their homework.
Look at the parking lot lights at Expo Square, they are "pointed down",
Look at Skelly Stadium's lights, they are also "pointed down",
but their design puts a lot of lights in neighbor's windows for a half mile in all directions, and are nuisances that might have been avoided if we asked the right questions and got a competent design in the first place.
It's not splitting hairs, just insisting on an appropriate brush for the paint job. That's not unreasonable, is it?
Quote from: patric on December 10, 2009, 11:46:55 AM
Im sure this is well meaning, but...
"Downlights", "lights pointed down" etc. are essentially meaningless phrases thrown around by development attorneys at neighborhood meetings.
Quantifiable, industry-recognized terms (like "IES Full Cutoff") actually impart useful information, and show that the architects have done their homework.
Look at the parking lot lights at Expo Square, they are "pointed down",
Look at Skelly Stadium's lights, they are also "pointed down",
but their design puts a lot of lights in neighbor's windows for a half mile in all directions, and are nuisances that might have been avoided if we asked the right questions and got a competent design in the first place.
It's not splitting hairs, just insisting on an appropriate brush for the paint job. That's not unreasonable, is it?
Well the term that was told to me was "dark skies friendly"
I saw drawings of the fixtures they want to use and can't find great examples but here is the closest I can find:
(http://www.patmullins.com/img2/downlight-white.jpg)
Intersection light
(http://www.stresscrete.com/images/products/large/K137R-IAAR.jpg)
Sidewalk lights
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 10, 2009, 12:14:38 PM
Well the term that was told to me was "dark skies friendly"
I saw drawings of the fixtures they want to use and can't find great examples but here is the closest I can find:
King Luminaire (the examples you posted) make some really good lights -- and some really bad ones. It all depends on what configuration you order. Unfortunately, many of the models they highlight consist of cold blu-ish LEDs pointing at the horizon (which are mostly glare and not "eye friendly") like the one below, but we could get lucky and end up with one of their better models that are shielded.
If you get a chance, could you ask your source for model numbers of those lights?
I could look them up and report on how they are likely to perform, rather than just hope for the best.
Will the sidewalks that are the narrow residential width be widened?
Quote from: TheTed on December 10, 2009, 02:01:38 PM
Will the sidewalks that are the narrow residential width be widened?
Sidewalks around the ballpark will be 5' minimum. Other areas of Brady are still "to be determined."
Quote from: patric on December 10, 2009, 01:53:45 PM
King Luminaire (the examples you posted) make some really good lights -- and some really bad ones. It all depends on what configuration you order. Unfortunately, many of the models they highlight consist of cold blu-ish LEDs pointing at the horizon (which are mostly glare and not "eye friendly") like the one below, but we could get lucky and end up with one of their better models that are shielded.
If you get a chance, could you ask your source for model numbers of those lights?
I could look them up and report on how they are likely to perform, rather than just hope for the best.
It is at RFP stage and I don't believe they have model numbers. The post-top lights are the kind with the LED lights shining up from the bottom of the fixture and a reflector in the top.
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 10, 2009, 04:30:47 PM
It is at RFP stage and I don't believe they have model numbers. The post-top lights are the kind with the LED lights shining up from the bottom of the fixture and a reflector in the top.
That would be the fixture below.
King Luminaire doesnt give out much useful information, like photometric distribution, light color, cutoff classification, glare, uplight, etc, so Im having some lighting designers get back to me on it.
EDIT: What im hearing back so far is that this fixture is
NOT listed among the people that certify "Dark Sky Friendly" fixtures, and that this may be just a manufacturer's claim.
What I see from the photos that
might disqualify it would be a lot of the up-light missing the reflector and shining up into space instead of on the ground. Ill let you know if I hear more.
FYI, supposedly the pocket park by mexicali has had it's acorn lights retrofitted to LED. someone should take a look and see how it looks.
At least they are flush enough with money so they dont have to worry about all the light being wasted up in the clouds. Not that they would design responsibly or anything...
(hint: you should not be able to see the source of properly-designed lighting from a helicopter or tall building).
Dude it's a ballpark. They're playing professional sports on that field, not paddycake. It's not there for decoration, it's there so the game can occur.
/ok, snark over. Honest question: Are there stadium lights in this world that do not offend a lighting conservationist? What fixtures should they have used?
Application of Reason
Gotta have enough up-shine to see a fly ball in the center of the field. As you move away from the fixtures you are going to need to achieve an angle of light in excess of the maximum height of a pop fly.
564 feet.
Otherwise the ball disappears into the night sky.
Quote from: patric on March 16, 2010, 03:35:01 PM
At least they are flush enough with money so they dont have to worry about all the light being wasted up in the clouds. Not that they would design responsibly or anything...
(hint: you should not be able to see the source of properly-designed lighting from a helicopter or tall building).
Apparently Patric wants all of the outfielders to get conked in the head with pop flies during a night game. ::)
Still no signs of progress on a sidewalk from the Blue Dome to the ballpark as of a couple days ago.
That'll be awhile. Probably before first street lofts open, but not necessarily by much.
Quote from: Floyd on March 16, 2010, 04:07:10 PM
Honest question: Are there stadium lights in this world that do not offend a lighting conservationist? What fixtures should they have used?
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=12977.msg124410#msg124410
So it's not like we didnt know...
(or wont have to pay the electric bill)
All of these ideas are great for little league fields and high schools, but for big hitters you are going to have to light the sky, cause dats where da ball goes! You have to be able to see it.
Football, soccer, and other field games are great for down-lighting, but you can't get away with it in baseball. If you want to avoid light pollution don't build a baseball field.
I have to say with "no exposure is too long" patric's photo, it still didn't look too bad.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 17, 2010, 07:59:59 AM
All of these ideas are great for little league fields and high schools, but for big hitters you are going to have to light the sky, cause dats where da ball goes! You have to be able to see it.
Football, soccer, and other field games are great for down-lighting, but you can't get away with it in baseball. If you want to avoid light pollution don't build a baseball field.
The lack of optical control also translates to a lot of spill light far beyond the stadium. While more light in the surrounding area might sound good, it's light at very shallow angles which means it's in-your-face glare.
With that kind of glare, people will be uneasy about not being able to see well, and will be at Maria Barnes doorstep demanding more streetlightng to compensate. The city will, of course, respond with more Acorn lights (with their own glare problem).
Without a real streetlighitng plan, we're just burning more tax dollars on electricity and fixtures that dont address the problem. The first priority of streetlights should be to improve human vision, not look pretty.
As for the stadium, shielding the shallow-angled, off-site spill light would not only alleviate the perception of dark streets but shield the glare that actually presents pedestrian and motorist hazards.
Quote from: patric on March 17, 2010, 10:22:49 AM
The lack of optical control also translates to a lot of spill light far beyond the stadium. While more light in the surrounding area might sound good, it's light at very shallow angles which means it's in-your-face glare.
With that kind of glare, people will be uneasy about not being able to see well, and will be at Maria Barnes doorstep demanding more streetlightng to compensate. The city will, of course, respond with more Acorn lights (with their own glare problem).
Without a real streetlighitng plan, we're just burning more tax dollars on electricity and fixtures that dont address the problem. The first priority of streetlights should be to improve human vision, not look pretty.
As for the stadium, shielding the shallow-angled, off-site spill light would not only alleviate the perception of dark streets but shield the glare that actually presents pedestrian and motorist hazards.
?OK?
I was just talking about the sky. Unlike most sports, much of the game of baseball takes place in the air. Way up in the air. You gotta have light there.
They've put some giant planters up every few feet on the east side of Elgin between First and Archer. They're in the outside traffic lane south of the tracks and in the grass strip between the street and the sidewalk once you get north of the tracks.
I assume this is just temporary. I don't like the way it makes pedestrians feel more relegated to the sidewalk. I generally walk in the street in that area because there are far, far more pedestrians than cars during games and because the sidewalk doesn't cross the railroad tracks. It's ridiculous to push pedestrians to a tiny sidewalk before/after ballgames. Not when that's one of the few streets less hostile to pedestrians in an area surrounded by oversized one-way streets.
Quote from: TheTed on June 01, 2010, 12:54:46 PM
They've put some giant planters up every few feet on the east side of Elgin between First and Archer. They're in the outside traffic lane south of the tracks and in the grass strip between the street and the sidewalk once you get north of the tracks.
I assume this is just temporary. I don't like the way it makes pedestrians feel more relegated to the sidewalk. I generally walk in the street in that area because there are far, far more pedestrians than cars during games and because the sidewalk doesn't cross the railroad tracks. It's ridiculous to push pedestrians to a tiny sidewalk before/after ballgames. Not when that's one of the few streets less hostile to pedestrians in an area surrounded by oversized one-way streets.
I believe those planters are there because there is no sidewalk on the east side currently.
Quote from: sgrizzle on June 01, 2010, 01:42:30 PM
I believe those planters are there because there is no sidewalk on the east side currently.
I'm pretty sure there's a sidewalk on the east side from First to Archer with the exception of the area where you cross the railroad tracks.
In some parts.
In other news: Google maps finally updated:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=archer+and+elgin+tulsa&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+Archer+St+%26+N+Elgin+Ave,+Tulsa,+Oklahoma+74120&ll=36.158892,-95.987844&spn=0.002244,0.004823&t=k&z=18
Quote from: sgrizzle on June 01, 2010, 06:55:36 PM
In some parts.
In other news: Google maps finally updated:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=archer+and+elgin+tulsa&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+Archer+St+%26+N+Elgin+Ave,+Tulsa,+Oklahoma+74120&ll=36.158892,-95.987844&spn=0.002244,0.004823&t=k&z=18
Yeah, I mentioned that in the Reservoir Hill post...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=15547.msg164395#msg164395
Deserved its own post probably.
Quote from: Hoss on June 01, 2010, 07:01:40 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that in the Reservoir Hill post...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=15547.msg164395#msg164395
Deserved its own post probably.
I created another one for it. Looks like this one was a month or two ago on a workday.
They have some new "streetscaping" today in front of the ballpark. Elgin has the usual gameday barriers preventing cars from traveling down it. But there are five or so cars parked perpendicularly across the middle of Elgin. Hope this doesn't become permanent. It's one of the few spaces in Tulsa where the needs of pedestrians have been met. The middle of that street doesn't need to become more parking (with the exception of the handicapped parking on the sides of Elgin there).
On another pedestrian ballpark access note, is it possible for the police to consider writing some tickets for blocking the sidewalk during events? People are always parked in front of the Mathews Warehouse on Archer completely blocking the sidewalk. I've reported sidewalk blockades before (all the delivery trucks on Denver by the courthouse) with no results. Who needs to be notified?
The dedication of John Hope Franklin Park is today on the other side of Elgin. I assume there might be a connection.
Two years later, still no sidewalks.
On the Elgin approach from the Blue Dome, there was a sidewalk on one side of the street. Now that sidewalk is torn up (utility work?). There are a bunch of contractor trucks parked on said sidewalk.
On the Brady approach from the Brady District, the south side of the street still has no sidewalk. During games, there's usually a car parked on the goat path that serves as a de facto sidewalk. On the north side of Brady, there's a sidewalk, but it serves as a de facto motorcycle parking area during games.
If we can't get streetscaping, how about a parking enforcement person to walk the sidewalks around the park during games and ticket all the violations? Sometimes I wonder if parking enforcement types have ever ticketed a sidewalk parker.
I believe the Brady streetscaping is supposed to start when the park is complete. As far as Elgin, that involves two districts and blue dome tiff money can pay for the area up to the tracks but not beyond.
Streetscaping has taken off over the last week on first street north of the BOK Tower/Williams Resource accross from the Jazz Depot/Central Parking. New lamp posts and trees. It basically mirrors what is on the south side of the building on Second Street across from the Hyatt/parking garage/PAC. Nothing extravagant, but nice nonetheless and will give that area a nicer feel when walking between parking and the BOK Center or ballpark.
Quote from: DowntownDan on April 16, 2012, 04:37:45 PM
Streetscaping has taken off over the last week on first street north of the BOK Tower/Williams Resource accross from the Jazz Depot/Central Parking. New lamp posts and trees. It basically mirrors what is on the south side of the building on Second Street across from the Hyatt/parking garage/PAC. Nothing extravagant, but nice nonetheless and will give that area a nicer feel when walking between parking and the BOK Center or ballpark.
I noticed this and give it two thumbs up. Mainly because we repurposed what was a parking lane into added pedestrian space. This is an idea that needs to be implemented throughout downtown.
Stop building (or rebuilding) downtown streets to make sure they have excess capacity at the busiest 15 minutes of the busiest day of the year.