The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

KJRH: "People living near 61st and Peoria, may have woken up to the sound of gun-fire around midnight. (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Overnight-shoot-out-in-South-Tulsa/CnlaGlM8lEKsRb_biRMVBw.cspx)"
Isn't there a good chance of that during any given night?

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 31, 2009, 09:56:50 AM
KJRH: "People living near 61st and Peoria, may have woken up to the sound of gun-fire around midnight. (http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Overnight-shoot-out-in-South-Tulsa/CnlaGlM8lEKsRb_biRMVBw.cspx)"
Isn't there a good chance of that during any given night?

Daytime too.

That place is like a warzone

Exagerate much?

It is a bad area, but I haven't found an area yet in Tulsa that can be concidered a "warzone".  I think the oddest thing about that area is if you go just a little bit into the neighborhood you start seeing nice houses, and Metro Christian Academy.  I never could understand how two contrasting area's like that could stand so long in such close proximity.

That is so true about that area.
SW corner, High level terrible.
NW corner, Slight to moderate terrible.
SE corner, Slight to moderate nice.
NE corner, Nice to high level nice.
All with just a traffic light seperation.

Southern Hills is not far away either.

I understand Augusta National is not in such a great area, but I've never been there to see it.

Quote from: sgrizzle on July 31, 2009, 10:50:03 PM
Exagerate much?

actually no I dont, have you lived there, and become used to waking up to gunshots just outside your window?
Well, I have

the news only reports the shots that hit, they could care less about the ones that miss, and there are plenty.

Quote from: custosnox on August 01, 2009, 01:05:17 AM
It is a bad area, but I haven't found an area yet in Tulsa that can be concidered a "warzone".  I think the oddest thing about that area is if you go just a little bit into the neighborhood you start seeing nice houses, and Metro Christian Academy.  I never could understand how two contrasting area's like that could stand so long in such close proximity.

Good neighborhood/bad neighborhood within a block or so is common in the Midwest. Go to Chicago and you'll see what I mean.

Back in the 1960's when HUD through various lawsuits forced cities to DISPERSE Low-Income Housing from historical ethnic neighborhood pockets, the City Fathers of Tulsa decided to drop this mandate into the laps of the 61st and Peoria neighborhood, effectively Red-Lining decent development in that area.

Things have gone straight downhill in that neighborhood since then.  Sungate Apartments evolved into Gungate Apartments.  It did not happen overnight, but gradually those people who didn't have to live in a war zone moved out.

Pawn shops, liquor stores, laundreys, and fast food outlets predominate.

Quote from: Friendly Bear on August 09, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
Back in the 1960's when HUD through various lawsuits forced cities to DISPERSE Low-Income Housing from historical ethnic neighborhood pockets, the City Fathers of Tulsa decided to drop this mandate into the laps of the 61st and Peoria neighborhood, effectively Red-Lining decent development in that area.

Things have gone straight downhill in that neighborhood since then.  Sungate Apartments evolved into Gungate Apartments.  It did not happen overnight, but gradually those people who didn't have to live in a war zone moved out.

Pawn shops, liquor stores, laundreys, and fast food outlets predominate.

Yes, but no wondering bears from Turkey Mountain.

Am I being called a wondering bear, and perhaps meaning a wandering bear?

Quote from: Friendly Bear on August 09, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
Back in the 1960's when HUD through various lawsuits forced cities to DISPERSE Low-Income Housing from historical ethnic neighborhood pockets, the City Fathers of Tulsa decided to drop this mandate into the laps of the 61st and Peoria neighborhood, effectively Red-Lining decent development in that area.

Things have gone straight downhill in that neighborhood since then.  Sungate Apartments evolved into Gungate Apartments.  It did not happen overnight, but gradually those people who didn't have to live in a war zone moved out.

Pawn shops, liquor stores, laundreys, and fast food outlets predominate.

Sometimes you are right about local issues, but not this time.  That's not how it went down.  Tulsa was never under such a consent order from HUD or anyone else.  Though it takes some serious stupidity to let an area go so far down, it's not a conspiracy, and it wasn't entirely the gov't, though they played a role.

61st and Peoria was driven at high speed off a cliff through a combination of bad planning, cheap construction, and poor management.  Almost all of it was "market rate" when built.  Think about it...what a hip location!  But bad planning created an inordinate concentration of apartments and little else, i.e., jobs, services, etc. in this compact area.  Add to it the fact that "hands off" absentee landlords didn't listen to tenants or manage their cheaply built properties well.  The end result is a neighborhood with a shelf life that could be measured with an egg timer.

It didn't become what it is today by design.  Rather, it's a rough place because of a lack of design.  It's a mischaracterization to say that this was caused by HUD, and lawsuits, the city, though some of this may happened and played a part.  It's also wrong to blame this on poor people; they didn't build that place.  It's an object lesson on how not to build a neighborhood.  Think the city will learn from it?

All cities with public housing concentrated in ethnic minority concentrated areas were under a de facto threat of a HUD lawsuit, since it was the self-same lawsuits which forced some cities to begin to DISPERSE their public housing.

Our city fathers chose 61st and Peoria Avenue as the destination to disperse public housing, which had heretofore been concentrated in north Tulsa, i.e. Apache Manor and Commanche Manor.

Whether Tulsa was ever actually sued or not, I do not believe we actually were, or that it really matters whether the city of Tulsa was actually sued. 

The lawsuits established HUD public housing public policy during the Great Society era of Lieing Lyndon Johnson.

Another shooting out there ? No wayyyy !
I could probably keep this topic active with just updates.
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10929674

you still think I was exagerating? watch the news sometime

Four Dead in Tulsa Shooting

58th and Owasso

http://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/four-dead-tulsa-shooting#.UOshjNRVXbo.facebook (http://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/four-dead-tulsa-shooting#.UOshjNRVXbo.facebook)

QuoteFour people have been found shot inside an apartment near 61st and South Peoria. Police scanner traffic indicated the victims are women and they are dead.

Tulsa Police are on the scene at the Fairmont Terrace Apartments and are just beginning their investigation.

KWGS' Catherine Roberts is on the scene gathering information.

Damn. I was just walking through there Saturday night at around one a.m. Seriously, so sorry to hear about this. Sad day for Tulsa.

Quote from: guido911 on January 07, 2013, 03:23:34 PM
Damn. I was just walking through there Saturday night at around one a.m. Seriously, so sorry to hear about this. Sad day for Tulsa.

You are a much more brave soul than I am.

Quote from: guido911 on January 07, 2013, 03:23:34 PM
Damn. I was just walking through there Saturday night at around one a.m. Seriously, so sorry to hear about this. Sad day for Tulsa.

Dude!  I gotta party with you.

(http://www.buckaball.com/prodimages/BA411P.jpg)(http://www.buckaball.com/prodimages/BA411P.jpg)

There is no humor in your posts. I used to pick up children to take to grade school right where the World pic was taken. People over there are real humans with real uncles, cousins, parents who are living in the middle of a real hell hole. Many are poor but not all of them are criminal. The only way G was there at 1am though, was if he was buying drugs or sex. I doubt Gas has enough of those balls to venture in.

The kids were great little talkers and I learned much about the lifestyles over there. They were extremely street smart and very curious about people like the bus drivers and teachers who are the only normal people they have interaction with. No one likes it over there. Every morning I came across at least two EMSA vehicles, firetrucks or cops. Its sobering. And frightful. They will grow up.

An interesting tidbit. There are Family Market shopping carts strewn all over the neighborhoods over there. I asked if they were stolen. No. People have no transportation so they push the carts home with food and leave them on the streets. Family Market employees drive a truck through the area picking them up.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
People over there are real humans...

No they aren't.  ::)

Rest easy all. We have been blessed with our weekly sermon on the horrific tragedy of circumstance. Something NO ONE knew about until now.

Go sue yourself.

You two simmer down. Guido was trying to be funny and aquaman was making a good point. No need to go any further on that.

These are Tulsans. They are our neighbors and could be our co-workers or members of our churchs and schools.

This is a tragedy. Four people are now dead. It was probably because they were involved in some lifestyle that is outside the law, but that doesn't mean they deserved to die in such a violent way. I especially worry about the young boy who seemed to see it all. I hope he is OK.

I hope they catch the shooter(s). We don't need people like that running around making all of us afraid.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
An interesting tidbit. There are Family Market shopping carts strewn all over the neighborhoods over there. I asked if they were stolen. No. People have no transportation so they push the carts home with food and leave them on the streets. Family Market employees drive a truck through the area picking them up.

Maybe Family Market should build a cart corral in the neighborhood.  Seriously.  It would be a good will gesture that they recognize the needs of some of their customers.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on January 07, 2013, 08:01:29 PM
You two simmer down. Guido was trying to be funny and aquaman was making a good point.

Oh come on RM, that buffoon knew damned well that I was saying. It was so plain you got it. He was just trying to be argumentative and to feebly attempt to run down those he disagrees with. Seriously, did you believe for a millisecond that myself, Gas, or anyone else doesn't care about the loss of life? Hell, Gas even started a thread on hoping Hillary gets well.

Quote from: guido911 on January 07, 2013, 08:56:07 PM
Oh come on RM, that buffoon knew damned well that I was saying. It was so plain you got it. He was just trying to be argumentative and to feebly attempt to run down those he disagrees with. Seriously, did you believe for a millisecond that myself, Gas, or anyone else doesn't care about the loss of life? Hell, Gas even started a thread on hoping Hillary gets well.

All that education and this ^ is the best you can do? Buffoon? What is it I disagreed with you about in your post anyway? Stick to something other than humor. You fail there. At least my sermons are on target.

Your post looked remarkably like the ones I read at the end of the World story. I just couldn't stand the Okie in your post.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
There is no humor in your posts. I used to pick up children to take to grade school right where the World pic was taken. People over there are real humans with real uncles, cousins, parents who are living in the middle of a real hell hole. Many are poor but not all of them are criminal. The only way G was there at 1am though, was if he was buying drugs or sex. I doubt Gas has enough of those balls to venture in.

The kids were great little talkers and I learned much about the lifestyles over there. They were extremely street smart and very curious about people like the bus drivers and teachers who are the only normal people they have interaction with. No one likes it over there. Every morning I came across at least two EMSA vehicles, firetrucks or cops. Its sobering. And frightful. They will grow up.

An interesting tidbit. There are Family Market shopping carts strewn all over the neighborhoods over there. I asked if they were stolen. No. People have no transportation so they push the carts home with food and leave them on the streets. Family Market employees drive a truck through the area picking them up.

I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be the very definition of stolen to me. Maybe they didn't keep them, but they did remove them from the property of the rightful owner.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
There are Family Market shopping carts strewn all over the neighborhoods over there.

Warehouse Market?   I found Family Dollar and Warehouse Market on Peoria at 55th Pl and 62nd St respectively on Google Maps.

Quote from: Ibanez on January 07, 2013, 10:14:07 PM
I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be the very definition of stolen to me. Maybe they didn't keep them, but they did remove them from the property of the rightful owner.

Go let them know.  Tell us how it turns out.

Quote from: Ibanez on January 07, 2013, 10:14:07 PM
I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be the very definition of stolen to me. Maybe they didn't keep them, but they did remove them from the property of the rightful owner.

Rounding up carts and maybe replacing a few extra is probably just viewed as a cost of doing business.  That, plus if the store doesn't try too much to prevent the carts from leaving the property, might make it difficult to make a case that the carts were stolen rather than borrowed.

Seems with the gradual distancing of God or religion in general from our society that there's been a corresponding lack of respect or appreciation for other humans.

Just sayin'

Quote from: Conan71 on January 08, 2013, 09:04:52 AM
Seems with the gradual distancing of God or religion in general from our society that there's been a corresponding lack of respect or appreciation for other humans.

Just sayin'

+1

This was very grim, it is believed the killings were execution style. The crime in the 61st & Peoria area is really getting bad, not to mention all the fires that have been happening there lately. Dunno if the apartments screen the new residents or what, or if outsiders come into the area to do bad things..Perhaps the cops need to do sweeps there every other week or so, check residents for warrants and round up trouble makers. It's really getting out of control.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 08, 2013, 09:58:51 AM
This was very grim, it is believed the killings were execution style.

Believed by whom?

QuoteThe crime in the 61st & Peoria area is really getting bad, not to mention all the fires that have been happening there lately.

What fires?

The story has went Global. Or at least Great Britain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2258720/Little-girl-4-witness-horrific-scene-women-shot-death-Tulsa-apartment.html

I was thinking about starting a separate thread on our stupid friggin Mayor declaring omnipotent power to over take property rights by declaring high-crime areas "public nuisances." Then I thought that would just invite gun nuts here to tell me all about the constitution.

BTW, those were 4 white women. Just fyi.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 08, 2013, 09:04:52 AM
Seems with the gradual distancing of God or religion in general from our society that there's been a corresponding lack of respect or appreciation for other humans. weapon control.

Just sayin'

Line up....all you with God on your side, take property where law enforcement fails.

Quote from: Townsend on January 08, 2013, 10:08:35 AM
Believed by whom?

In a conversation with a TPD officer about 2p yesterday he told me the women were bound when they found them.  I haven't seen that information reported.

This area hasn't gotten bad, it's been bad.  The root of the crime and despair in this neighborhood goes back decades when it was decided to move low income housing into the area.  The neighborhood archives on the top floor of the central library have several articles from the Tulsa World outlining the optimism of the leaders touting the plan to mass the low income housing in this attractive part of town.  When is our society going to learn projects, regardless of their form, don't work!

Quote from: Townsend on January 08, 2013, 10:08:35 AM
Believed by whom?

The father of the twins who were murdered said they were bound and executed.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 07, 2013, 07:35:44 PM
There is no humor in your posts. I used to pick up children to take to grade school right where the World pic was taken. People over there are real humans with real uncles, cousins, parents who are living in the middle of a real hell hole. Many are poor but not all of them are criminal. The only way G was there at 1am though, was if he was buying drugs or sex. I doubt Gas has enough of those balls to venture in.

The kids were great little talkers and I learned much about the lifestyles over there. They were extremely street smart and very curious about people like the bus drivers and teachers who are the only normal people they have interaction with. No one likes it over there. Every morning I came across at least two EMSA vehicles, firetrucks or cops. Its sobering. And frightful. They will grow up.

An interesting tidbit. There are Family Market shopping carts strewn all over the neighborhoods over there. I asked if they were stolen. No. People have no transportation so they push the carts home with food and leave them on the streets. Family Market employees drive a truck through the area picking them up.

What happened is heart breaking, and not unusual for that community.  I have driven by and seen the dealing on the streets in broad daylight in front of the convenience store on Peoria.  I've seen residents pushing carts back to their apartments.  Two years ago my wife's car was stolen from our driveway in South Tulsa and was 3 months later recovered parked in the back of St. Thomas Square apartments stripped.  No one saw anything, though the car had been there for months.  No one talks to the police there.

I have a friend who is a cop, and he says they regularly "sweep" these complexes.  They just walk through and detain and question anyone that takes off running.  They find drugs, weapons, but sometimes they find nothing.  Many of the young people have just learned to run when they see a cop.  There are a lot of drugs, and other "business" in that community, and yes, there are children learning sad and destructive lessons in life.  The residents in these communities are victims of a system that provides comfort without cost, support without investment, and fruit without labor.  We pay them to live there, we pay them more with every child.  We reward failure, and perpetuate social disease.

Life in these communities is dangerous but easy. Escape for these folks is hard, it requires sacrifice and difficult choices.  There is hope for the kids. I personally know some adults that have escaped similar communities, but it was tough and sometimes involved sobering doses of reality.

Liberty is often a heavy burden on a man. It involves the necessity for perpetual choice which is the kind of labor men have always dreaded. – Oliver Wendall Holmes

Names released:
http://www.fox23.com/content/crime/story/Police-release-names-of-quadruple-murder-victims/br5fgXKmv0-rpTSBCObFJg.cspx

The twins have Facebook pages.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 08, 2013, 09:58:51 AM
This was very grim, it is believed the killings were execution style. The crime in the 61st & Peoria area is really getting bad, not to mention all the fires that have been happening there lately. Dunno if the apartments screen the new residents or what, or if outsiders come into the area to do bad things..Perhaps the cops need to do sweeps there every other week or so, check residents for warrants and round up trouble makers. It's really getting out of control.

You are totally clueless. That area has been in decline and been the way that it is since about 1974. Section 8 housing can not screen residents, and if you want routine sweeps by the police, you need Mr. Peabody and his Way Back machine, and go to one of the eastern block countries of the former U.S.S.R. that way you won't have to worry about crime, the police will control everything for you.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 08, 2013, 09:04:52 AM
Seems with the gradual distancing of God or religion in general from our society that there's been a corresponding lack of respect or appreciation for other humans.

Just sayin'

Americans Highly Religious, Likely to Become Even More Religious, Pollster Predicts

http://www.christianpost.com/news/americans-highly-religious-likely-to-become-even-more-religious-pollster-predicts-86044/ (http://www.christianpost.com/news/americans-highly-religious-likely-to-become-even-more-religious-pollster-predicts-86044/)

QuoteSeven in 10 Americans are very or moderately religious. Looking at demographic trends, Frank Newport, editor in chief for Gallup, predicts that Americans will become even more religious, on average, in the future.
In surveys conducted this year by Gallup, 40 percent of Americans can be categorized as "very religious," while 29 percent are "moderately religious" and 31 percent are nonreligious. Religiosity is measured by frequency of attendance at worship services and the importance of religion in the respondents' daily life. The sample of 326,721 adults has a margin of error of plus or minus one percentage point.

Among Newport's other findings, Americans become more religious as they age, women are more religious than men, the South is the most religious region, those with high levels of income and education are the least religious, and Republicans are more religious than Democrats, with one notable exception -- blacks are the most religious and the most Democratic of any race or ethnic group.

Newport expects Americans' level of religiosity to increase over the next 20 years because the number of Americans 65 and older will double over the next 20 years. Since, historically, most people become more religious as they reach that age, the average level of religiosity for the entire population should increase if the trend continues.

Newport notes, though, that this trend could also be counterbalanced by the currently low fertility rate. Since religiosity usually correlates with having children, average religiosity could decline if fewer people are choosing to raise kids.

Another trend that could impact religiosity in the United States is that Americans have been migrating from less religious states to more religious states over the previous decade.

Newport discusses these trends in more detail in a new book, God Is Alive and Well: The Future of Religion in America, published Tuesday.

Also discussed in the book is the decline of Protestant Christianity and the increase in "unbranded" Christianity. While traditional Protestant denominations have been losing members, nondenominational churches or congregations with only loose or unadvertised affiliations with denominations have been growing.

The number of Catholics has remained steady, mostly due to the rising number of young Catholic Latino immigrants which have offset declines elsewhere.

Must be a fluke.

Quote from: rdj on January 08, 2013, 10:49:21 AM
In a conversation with a TPD officer about 2p yesterday he told me the women were bound when they found them.  I haven't seen that information reported.

This area hasn't gotten bad, it's been bad.  The root of the crime and despair in this neighborhood goes back decades when it was decided to move low income housing into the area.  The neighborhood archives on the top floor of the central library have several articles from the Tulsa World outlining the optimism of the leaders touting the plan to mass the low income housing in this attractive part of town.  When is our society going to learn projects, regardless of their form, don't work!

So true. Interested neighbors in nearby Heller Park neighborhood and the South Peoria Neighborhood Foundation have been campaigning for years to have the worst of these complexes razed and reduce the density of low-income housing in that area. Barriers to progress include out-of-state apartment owners who only care about their regular HUD subsidies, powerless and/or disinterested apartment management companies who can't make real changes, and an abundance of short-term leases with no credit checks such that criminals can easily move from one complex to another.

Quote from: rdj on January 08, 2013, 10:49:21 AM
This area hasn't gotten bad, it's been bad.  The root of the crime and despair in this neighborhood goes back decades when it was decided to move low income housing into the area.  The neighborhood archives on the top floor of the central library have several articles from the Tulsa World outlining the optimism of the leaders touting the plan to mass the low income housing in this attractive part of town.  

Something else that didnt work there:
Mayor Initiates Lights On! Project for Neighborhood Safety
https://www.cityoftulsa.org/news/news-stories/2011/lightson9-2011.aspx

Yes, that was one of the areas that got about a dozen new crime fighting lights.  ::)
Nothing says "high crime area" like that glary prison-yard look.

Hitting national:

Oklahoma Apartment Shooting Update: Twins, 23, among four women found shot to death

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57562767-504083/oklahoma-apartment-shooting-update-twins-23-among-four-women-found-shot-to-death/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57562767-504083/oklahoma-apartment-shooting-update-twins-23-among-four-women-found-shot-to-death/)

Quote(CBS/AP) TULSA, Okla. - Police say 23-year-old twins were among four women found shot to death in an apartment Monday in a rough neighborhood in south Tulsa. A 3-year-old boy was found unharmed.
CBS affiliate KOTV spoke to Larry Powell, the father of the twins, who confirmed that the 3-year-old was his grandson.

"The little baby, you know, he had to sit there all day and look at what they did. How could you do something like that?" Powell said, according to the station.

KOTV reports this is not the first time Powell has experienced the pain of losing a child. His son died from the flu in 2003. Now, his two remaining daughters are also gone.

Officers don't know what relationship the other victims, women ages 33 and 55, had to the twins or the child. Tulsa police spokesman Leland Ashley said Tuesday there is no "clear-cut suspect" and that investigators don't know why the women were killed.

The Fairmont Terrace apartment complex has a nighttime security patrol but police believe the killings occurred in broad daylight.

The bodies were found midday Monday, about an hour after anyone last heard from someone at the apartment.

The neighborhood is about a mile from the Southern Hills Country Club and two miles from Oral Roberts University.

Quote from: dbacks fan on January 08, 2013, 12:13:02 PM
You are totally clueless. That area has been in decline and been the way that it is since about 1974. Section 8 housing can not screen residents, and if you want routine sweeps by the police, you need Mr. Peabody and his Way Back machine, and go to one of the eastern block countries of the former U.S.S.R. that way you won't have to worry about crime, the police will control everything for you.

Actually, I believe they can and do screen "residents" for income eligibility.  What they can't seem to control are the pieces of scum who "stay" at the complexes.

TPD: killer connected to one of the quadruple murder victims

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Mayor-Bartlett-comments-on-quadruple-homicide/WCxREH6C8kKLjroK1gJi6g.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Mayor-Bartlett-comments-on-quadruple-homicide/WCxREH6C8kKLjroK1gJi6g.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

QuoteTulsa police say the killer or killers had a connection to one of the victims in Monday's quadruple homicide.

23-year old Rebeika Powell, 23-year old Kayetie Melchor, 33-year old Misty Nunley and 55-year old Julie Jackson were shot and killed at the Fairmont Terrace Apartments on Monday.

Police say this was not a random shooting and the public should not be concerned for their safety. Police are not releasing any further details at this time.

Police tell FOX23 they have interviewed more than 20 people, including another resident at the complex, they say he is not a suspect and no search warrants have been issued for this investigation.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett also commented on the investigation on Tuesday, saying: "We are within 24-hours of this terrible tragedy. We are looking down every possible avenue for answers to how this situation can be improved in this area of the city. From abatement issues to out of state ownership and management, this issue will remain on the top of my list moving forward.

Although, there have been seven homicides this year, the homicide rate for Tulsa is the lowest it has been in ten years and the Tulsa Police Department is at full strength for the first time in three years.

The Tulsa Police Department is known for their quick efforts of finding perpetrators and I have no doubt that they will live up to their stellar reputation for these cases."

QuoteFrom Tulsa World comments:
IcksPigeon :It starts out as a haven for women and children who can't afford full rent. The women usually have jobs, and need help with food and clothing also, but want to make better lives for themselves. But, sooner or later, the children's fathers show up, or new boyfriends do, and with them come the vilolence, drugs, and guns and knives, and more babies. This happens to all races. The women get stuck in this rut and they are pretty much held captive to these blood sucking men and this way of life.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 08, 2013, 01:59:41 PM
Actually, I believe they can and do screen "residents" for income eligibility.  What they can't seem to control are the pieces of scum who "stay" at the complexes.

Kudos to TPD...they will get their "man"...again.

So Conan, you don't think it's possible that someone living two or three years in those complexes might be working hard to eventually integrate into the middle class or simply survive?


Riverparks dies out at I44 from the "fear" at 61st.  Let the city of Tulsa negotiate in good faith to purchase as many properties as it takes  to "improve" Riverparks. Then, make the sale contingent on an election to purchase this area and turn it into more Riverside park land part and parcel to Johnson Park. Now, our citizens will understand this type of redevelopment is a priority over Chamber bribe/slush funds. But you do not go about this process declaring the property "nuisance." What's the City, er Mayor, doing recommending the city manager, Twoboy (?), research this? Why do we have a Mayor?

That are has been a smile-hole for damn near 30 years....I  did not think it could get worse but it progressively has....Nothing that 5 Cat D 10's could not take care of in a week or so....

Quote from: Breadburner on January 08, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
That are has been a smile-hole for damn near 30 years....I  did not think it could get worse but it progressively has....Nothing that 5 Cat D 10's could not take care of in a week or so....

Let's speed it up a bit.  Bring in the D-11s.   ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_D11

Lol...Might as well...There is some ripe land in that area for re-developement.......

Quote from: Ibanez on January 07, 2013, 10:14:07 PM
I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be the very definition of stolen to me. Maybe they didn't keep them, but they did remove them from the property of the rightful owner.

No, its with the informal approval of the store, (which is btw, Warehouse Mkt...thanks Red). They are in the business of selling food and merchandise, not locking up customers. They get their baskets back and sell them more food. Also gives some guy a job i guess.

The thought of redeveloping the area appeals to me. I coached little league baseball at Johnson park back in the 80's and it was bad then. No phone service, no newspaper delivery and no food delivery because the service people would get robbed and beaten. But the kids of the complex used to come watch us play and the basketball courts were always busy. We never felt threatened.

Only thing is we would need to do it differently than when they bulldozed down the areas north of downtown without plans for replacing them. Those areas still lie fallow. Maybe the present owners could be involved.

The cycle repeats...this area has been the new "Apache Manor" area of Tulsa for a long, long time.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 08, 2013, 05:03:56 PM
Kudos to TPD...they will get their "man"...again.

So Conan, you don't think it's possible that someone living two or three years in those complexes might be working hard to eventually integrate into the middle class or simply survive?

One night in a place like that would be enough to make me claw my way out a lot quicker than that.  I'm quite certain there are people who do eventually work their way out of that situation.  Unfortunately, there are baby daddies and other scum who come around and make them so dangerous.

Oh, and you need to get with your hood lingo.  Those who "stay" there aren't the legal residents.  The are the parasites, pimps, and hangers-on.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 08, 2013, 05:03:56 PM
Riverparks dies out at I44 from the "fear" at 61st.  Let the city of Tulsa negotiate in good faith to purchase as many properties as it takes  to "improve" Riverparks. Then, make the sale contingent on an election to purchase this area and turn it into more Riverside park land part and parcel to Johnson Park. Now, our citizens will understand this type of redevelopment is a priority over Chamber bribe/slush funds. But you do not go about this process declaring the property "nuisance." What's the City, er Mayor, doing recommending the city manager, Twoboy (?), research this? Why do we have a Mayor?

It was a noon-time crime, and the mayor was "out looking at lighting."
http://www.fox23.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=3895404&navCatId=19942

Got him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259581/Joseph-Tillman-Cops-catch-person-grisly-apartment-bloodbath.html

That have not said he is the killer....Just want to question him.....

Quote from: Conan71 on January 08, 2013, 11:30:04 PM
One night in a place like that would be enough to make me claw my way out a lot quicker than that.  I'm quite certain there are people who do eventually work their way out of that situation.  Unfortunately, there are baby daddies and other scum who come around and make them so dangerous.

Oh, and you need to get with your hood lingo.  Those who "stay" there aren't the legal residents.  The are the parasites, pimps, and hangers-on.

They find relatives, friends, ex-girlfriends, disabled etc. and threaten their lives if they don't let them deal out of their premises. That way its hard to track them down and they slip some money to the residents for their trouble. Happens all over town. These are the worst of humankind who threaten a disabled grandparent on SS.

Ginnie Graham: Low-income apartment owners called on to discuss changes

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=732&articleid=20130109_11_A1_Foryea705179# (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=732&articleid=20130109_11_A1_Foryea705179#)

QuoteFor years, Lanny Endicott has wanted owners of the low-income apartments in his neighborhood to attend a meeting.

Endicott is president of the nonprofit South Peoria Connection Foundation and resident of the 61st Street and Peoria Avenue area since 1973.

For about 25 years, the neighborhood has dealt with the side effects of poverty, including crime.

The latest tragedy - the homicide of four women at Fairmont Terrace - has the city, once again, faced with figuring out prevention.

The discussion must include two points: the effects of poverty and a need for more responsibility among landlords, particularly those of multi-unit properties.

"The most frustrating thing year after year is getting the owners to show up to the table," Endicott said. "We have no success getting outside owners to show up. These are people who can make the decisions to do something about security, renovate apartments, get better lighting and those types of things.

"You have to have the head person involved. Maybe now is the time to call these guys in."

Cracking down: Mayor Dewey Bartlett is floating the idea of using public nuisance ordinances to crack down on high-crime areas.

Years ago, under former Mayor Bill LaFortune, a movement began to rid the city of substandard housing. He once vowed to eliminate these dangerous eyesores by 2025.

As with most task forces, reports and administration changes, this train lost steam.

Neighborhood inspectors have demolished dilapidated housing and improved some properties.

But the community push isn't there like it was before.

Bartlett would like to have crime lumped into this effort to put a hammer on behavior creating unsafe homes.

It's worth considering.

There also needs to be a deeper understanding of poverty, especially if it goes back generations.

"The whole area has some issues, but, in general, you will find people really like the area," Endicott said. "They like the location and there has been a lot of improvement in infrastructure to the area.

"The big problem is that with significant poverty involves crime. It's a different culture, a different way of thinking."

The poverty issue: The 61st and Peoria neighborhood started changing in the 1980s when Section 8 housing was established.

The philosophy was to break up the concentration of poverty from north Tulsa neighborhoods.

It didn't happen that way.

It simply created an additional pocket of poverty.

The South Peoria Connection Foundation was established to help residents become self-sufficient, offering a GED programs and food pantry.

The neighborhood schools, Marshall and McClure, have a 100 percent free-lunch population and offer extensive wrap-around social service programs to improve achievement and life skills.

Area churches have outreach programs to meet basic and spiritual needs.

"We are addressing that side of the poverty issue," Endicott said. "We have to have a discussion, maybe called at the behest of the mayor, with the owners. Many are not local, and for many it's a cash deal paid through the federal government."

Making it safe: Fairmont Terrace has applied for $14 million in federal tax credits administered through the state to renovate the complex.

Initial reports to the City Council show the managers are trying their best to make it safe.

It's a start. But managers aren't the owners.

Grants from the federal government in the late '90s to early 2000s paid overtime for police officers to patrol the area and add more private security and features like gates and lighting.

Managers met regularly with neighborhood homeowners, who organized crime watch programs such as writing down car tags in parking lots.

Those grants expired.

"That made a big change - more police in the neighborhood with a good working relationship with the security," Endicott said. "Things worked then and were successful. Then, it all went away."

Poverty doesn't destine a person to crime or to be a victim.

It does make them vulnerable to predators.

"We have a number of young people getting their GED and motivated to get education," Endicott. "We have a lot of working families."

A true response won't be simple.

Tulsa City Leaders Will Address Growing Concern About Subsidized Housing in High Crime Areas

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-city-leaders-will-address-growing-concern-about-subsidized-housing-high-crime-areas (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-city-leaders-will-address-growing-concern-about-subsidized-housing-high-crime-areas)

QuoteIn the wake of this week's quadruple killings, Tulsa city leaders are looking at ways to deal with problems in low-income, high crime areas. City Council Chairman David Patrick says increased police presence is only part of the solution. He says more must be done to address the concentration of what are called Section 8 low-income multi-unit properties in certain locations.

Patrick says the council is considering a quicker process to demolish dilapidated housing that owners refuse to improve, and helping with tax credits for those who want to upgrade their properties.

Shame they had to wait until these murders to get serious about that area.

Quote from: AngieBrumley on January 09, 2013, 01:44:51 PM
Shame they had to wait until these murders to get serious about that area.

Give it a few weeks.  Their interests will move on.

The killing of 4 people at once tends to focus the attention of city leaders more than a steady trickle of single killings.  A cynic might also wonder if the death of 4 white women could play a role as well.

And if it turns out to be a black man. Will we have another Trayvon Martin case on our hands?

Quote from: Townsend on January 09, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
Give it a few weeks.  Their interests will move on.

That's true.

In fact I'm willing to bet if it was one person killed, or even one person a week, it wouldn't have even made the news radar.

4 all at once, now that's worth reporting.

How sad!

The twins were models? dancers?

DoofusBob...pathetic post.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 09, 2013, 03:09:45 PM
The twins were models? dancers?

DoofusBob...pathetic post.

Models. Really? Where did you hear that?

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 09, 2013, 03:31:16 PM
Models. Really? Where did you hear that?

Kaytie was a model. Of some sort. Check their Facebook pages.

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 09, 2013, 03:31:16 PM
Models. Really? Where did you hear that?

RUMOR only...scuttlebutt. Dancers?

Per TW FB post:

QuoteManagers at Fairmont Terrace said they are stepping up security measures at the apartment complex by installing cameras and checking every person who comes onto the property after four women were killed there this week.

I have my doubts this will continue for long.

My guess is the victims and the killers had a connection somewhere, it's not likely they were killed for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Apartment complex also needs to screen it's residents for background checks, credit checks and criminal history.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 10:15:04 AM
The Apartment complex also needs to screen it's residents for background checks, credit checks and criminal history.

They do.

Its not the residents.  It's their visitors.

Quote from: rdj on January 10, 2013, 10:15:45 AM
They do.

Its not the residents.  It's their visitors.

The folks that come to buy drugs or the folks that come to sell them?

Quote from: Gaspar on January 10, 2013, 10:34:35 AM
The folks that come to buy drugs or the folks that come to sell them?

Section 8 vouchers that are approved thru the Tulsa Housing Authority are not supposed to go to convicted felons.  IF, big IF, that is the case then any felons would have to be visitors, no?

Now, that doesn't preclude someone from passing the "no felons" test but then committing a felony on the property as a resident.

Quote from: Townsend on January 09, 2013, 10:21:34 AM
Ginnie Graham: Low-income apartment owners called on to discuss changes

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=732&articleid=20130109_11_A1_Foryea705179# (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=732&articleid=20130109_11_A1_Foryea705179#)

I've always likened utility philanthropists who give away expensive street lighting (on the condition the recipient cover the cost of the required electricity in perpetuity) to heroin dealers recruiting new customers with free samples.

You have to wonder what impact it would have on crime detection if residents were comfortable having their drapes open and able to see outside at night, rather than having to shutter out the intrusive glare of poorly-planned "security" lighting.

Quote from: rdj on January 10, 2013, 10:52:19 AM
Section 8 vouchers that are approved thru the Tulsa Housing Authority are not supposed to go to convicted felons.  IF, big IF, that is the case then any felons would have to be visitors, no?

Now, that doesn't preclude someone from passing the "no felons" test but then committing a felony on the property as a resident.

Successful drug dealers aren't felons, neither are functional addicts.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 10, 2013, 01:04:16 PM
Successful drug dealers aren't felons, neither are functional addicts.

I'd be more afraid of the psychotics than the felons...but that's just me. Functional addicts are every 10 feet.

Another idea would be for the cops to do random raids or just swarm that area every few weeks or so, check license plates, check people's I.D. check people for warrants and things like- that after a while many bad guys will get sick of the cops making surprise rounds of the area and being hassled by the cops so they will move elsewhere, giving some other neighorbood problems.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 10, 2013, 01:30:06 PM
Another idea would be for the cops to do random raids or just swarm that area every few weeks or so, check license plates, check people's I.D. check people for warrants and things like- that after a while many bad guys will get sick of the cops making surprise rounds of the area and being hassled by the cops so they will move elsewhere, giving some other neighorbood problems.

Every now and then you have grant money that pays for something like that, and the grantor expects certain results in exchange.  The unintended consequences are that door-to-door incursions adversely impact the law-abiding.

Meanwhile, the trail goes cold:
Investigators do not expect additional charges to be filed against a man interviewed in connection with Monday's quadruple homicide at
Fairmont Terrace.
Investigators are expected to spend Thursday regrouping in an attempt to find anything they may be missing, he said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/specialprojects/news/crimewatch/article.aspx?subjectid=450&articleid=20130110_450_0_Invest246207

Quote from: Gaspar on January 10, 2013, 01:04:16 PM
Successful drug dealers aren't felons, neither are functional addicts.

I was responding to the suggestion from 'kraut that the landlords do "background checks, credit checks and criminal history." 

The real deal is you spread these types out instead of concentrating them in certain areas.....

Quote from: Breadburner on January 10, 2013, 03:01:39 PM
The real deal is you spread these types out instead of concentrating them in certain areas.....

That's why this complex exists.  It was spreading out the undesirables from north Tulsa.

Quote from: rdj on January 10, 2013, 03:02:30 PM
That's why this complex exists.  It was spreading out the undesirables from north Tulsa.

Im sure a well-intended vision was to move under-privileged families to a part of town with more opportunities, but the execution was horribly flawed by simply re-locating high-density poverty to another high-density location.   A ghetto is still a ghetto even if you change the zip code.

Quote from: rdj on January 10, 2013, 03:02:30 PM
That's why this complex exists.  It was spreading out the undesirables from north Tulsa.

You missed my point, re-concentrating them is not the answer......

What was the 61st & Peoria area like before public housing began there? Who is/was responsible for that location?

Quote from: guido911 on January 10, 2013, 08:05:01 PM
What was the 61st & Peoria area like before public housing began there? Who is/was responsible for that location?

late 1970's... But don't look back. Look forward because in 20 years there will be other enclaves of outdated multi family dwellings in need of rehabilitation just ripe for urban mania. How do you stop it?

131st and 145th E Av is Indian Springs Apartment complex in Broken Arrow. I really can't remember them having the type problems that 61st and Peoria does.
It has been Government housing for as long as I can remember.

Quote from: guido911 on January 10, 2013, 08:05:01 PM
What was the 61st & Peoria area like before public housing began there? Who is/was responsible for that location?

I don't know the earlier history, but when I moved to Tulsa the first time in 1987 I looked at several apartments in that area.  Many were relatively new and had obviously been planned before the oil bust.  Most had move in deals that included the first 2 or 3 months rent free, etc.  Places like The Glens and Sand Dollar were pretty nice (even if chepaly built).  I remember the Kensington Mall aleady was pretty dead.  I ended up living in TU housing, but I had a good friend who lived at The Glens from 1987 through 1990.  The deterioration of that stretch of Peoria during that period was pretty dramatic (not that it was upscale before), complete with increasing petty theft and the sounds of gun shots.

I always assumed that many of these apartment owners turned to section 8 because of the apartment glut in the mid to late 1980s and the fact that this area both had too many apartments and already was developing a negative reputation for crime, etc. that made it a tough sell to full price buyers.  I assumed the city was also encouraging it as part of its efforts to "spread out" section 8 housing from concentrations in parts of north Tulsa.

Quote from: DTowner on January 11, 2013, 09:30:46 AM
I don't know the earlier history, but when I moved to Tulsa the first time in 1987 I looked at several apartments in that area.  Many were relatively new and had obviously been planned before the oil bust.  Most had move in deals that included the first 2 or 3 months rent free, etc.  Places like The Glens and Sand Dollar were pretty nice (even if chepaly built).  I remember the Kensington Mall aleady was pretty dead.  I ended up living in TU housing, but I had a good friend who lived at The Glens from 1987 through 1990.  The deterioration of that stretch of Peoria during that period was pretty dramatic (not that it was upscale before), complete with increasing petty theft and the sounds of gun shots.

I always assumed that many of these apartment owners turned to section 8 because of the apartment glut in the mid to late 1980s and the fact that this area both had too many apartments and already was developing a negative reputation for crime, etc. that made it a tough sell to full price buyers.  I assumed the city was also encouraging it as part of its efforts to "spread out" section 8 housing from concentrations in parts of north Tulsa.

I had friends move from Apache Manor to 61st and Peoria in late 70's - section 8 - to get away from that blight.  And then this became the new blight....  Amazing how drug related crime will change an area.  Gee, maybe we should be trying something different for drug laws...??

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 11, 2013, 09:36:45 AM
I had friends move from Apache Manor to 61st and Peoria in late 70's - section 8 - to get away from that blight.  And then this became the new blight....  Amazing how drug related crime will change an area.  Gee, maybe we should be trying something different for drug laws...??

Naw. Let's concentrate on that fight against terrorism.

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 11, 2013, 09:15:57 AM
131st and 145th E Av is Indian Springs Apartment complex in Broken Arrow. I really can't remember them having the type problems that 61st and Peoria does.
It has been Government housing for as long as I can remember.

I lived on the windmill course in the late 80's.  I don't remember violent crimes but I do remember a larger quantity of crime in the area.

DT, terrorism is where the big money is!

As a teenager I worked in construction on the units south of 61st close to Riverside (not Sand Dollar). That was in the late 60's. The builder was a crook who shorted his subs. They in kind provided less than stellar quality. Probably happened all over the area. I thought they had coined the phrase, "good enough for government work".  My sister lived in the townhomes near Fairmont in the 80's. They were in transition to trouble around that time.

There are other section 8 housing complexes that have less problems. Country Club over on Newton and the Tisdale (those colorful townhouses) are well kept and crime free. They don't tolerate infringement of rules.

I believe the decline is twofold.  One, the density of rental in that area is excessive and two, the lack of local management.

Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

Quote from: rdj on January 11, 2013, 10:26:36 AM
Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

A nuisance that has increased substantially the past year.

As I recall, that development was supposed to be a mix of incomes (subsidized and non-subsidized) and housing (town homes and single family homes).  It does not look like the single family component was ever completed.

Quote from: guido911 on January 10, 2013, 08:05:01 PM
What was the 61st & Peoria area like before public housing began there? Who is/was responsible for that location?

There used to be a Putt-Putt golf course on the west side of Peoria near 61st. I remember going there with friends when I was a teenager (I'm thinking early 80's). We would hang out there without any adults accompanying us, so our parents must not have worried about the safety of the area too much at that point.

Quote from: rdj on January 11, 2013, 10:26:36 AM
Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

I like how everyone dances around the problem.

When people become dependent they lose all sense of pride, and they feel no individual responsibility for what takes place around them.  

Pride, cooperation, and a sense of individual responsibility is necessary for any community to be successful.

When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them.  When we promote them for pumping out kids, we breed failure like cattle.

Poverty is not supposed to be the easy way.  It's supposed to be the hard way.  It's supposed to be so terrifying and uncomfortable that men and women will not just labor to avoid it, but take notice of the choices that lead to it.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:29:11 PM
You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

Last I recall there was a massive remodel at the apartments along side #5.

Gaspar: "When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them" and "take notice of the choices that lead to it (poverty)."

You got a crack in your head. This is the fundamental difference between those wanting to give a hand up to the impoverished and those that just perceive any type of community service as a handout.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 11, 2013, 01:30:47 PM
I like how everyone dances around the problem.

When people become dependent they lose all sense of pride, and they feel no individual responsibility for what takes place around them.  

Pride, cooperation, and a sense of individual responsibility is necessary for any community to be successful.

When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them.  When we promote them for pumping out kids, we breed failure like cattle.

Poverty is not supposed to be the easy way.  It's supposed to be the hard way.  It's supposed to be so terrifying and uncomfortable that men and women will not just labor to avoid it, but take notice of the choices that lead to it.

Man, you are a one trick pony. A one note song. I'm surprised no one has taken you to task for turning a discussion of four murdered women into more T-party drivel. I hate to tell you this great poobah, but crime exists in wealthy neighborhoods as well. Even Jenks, Broken Arrow and Owasso have crazies who murder women. Rape is very popular in good southern neighborhoods too. Assault weapons seem to work well for white suburban middle class crazies as well as the projects.

On the other hand, thanks for giving the murderer(s) some sort of defense. "The gubmnt made me do it. They robbed me of my self respect and forced me into comfortable but shoddily built and maintained housing. They gave me money for pumping my seed into women so they could get more money while I moved on to the next heifer. They forced me to buy a gun and escape accountability for my actions."

You're like listening to an old man back in the Nixon years.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:29:11 PM
You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

My understanding is there are multiple spots in the "iron" fence between the properties that are compromised and residents are accessing the course through those spots.  I've been told golfers have witnessed their golf balls stolen in mid-round from children running onto the course after the tee shot.  The children will then offer to sell the ball back.  Quite enterprising if you ask me.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 01:37:06 PM

Last I recall there was a massive remodel at the apartments along side #5.

Gaspar: "When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them" and "take notice of the choices that lead to it (poverty)."

You got a crack in your head. This is the fundamental difference between those wanting to give a hand up to the impoverished and those that just perceive any type of community service as a handout.

If I recall correctly the fourth hole runs alongside that property line.

I believe you are using second hand information to draw inferences. Kids from Country Club look just like kids from nearby Newton and Union. Kids go through fences, steal golf balls and turn over trash cans everywhere. I did it. My friends did it and we all roamed through our hoods playing fast and loose. Part of growing up. Mostly harmless.

But when a subsidized housing addition is nearby its criminal behavior?

I would have thought the businessmen playing golf would have identified with the Wall Street type business acumen they showed. :)

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:43:35 PM
Man, you are a one trick pony. A one note song. I'm surprised no one has taken you to task for turning a discussion of four murdered women into more T-party drivel. I hate to tell you this great poobah, but crime exists in wealthy neighborhoods as well. Even Jenks, Broken Arrow and Owasso have crazies who murder women. Rape is very popular in good southern neighborhoods too. Assault weapons seem to work well for white suburban middle class crazies as well as the projects.

On the other hand, thanks for giving the murderer(s) some sort of defense. "The gubmnt made me do it. They robbed me of my self respect and forced me into comfortable but shoddily built and maintained housing. They gave me money for pumping my seed into women so they could get more money while I moved on to the next heifer. They forced me to buy a gun and escape accountability for my actions."

You're like listening to an old man back in the Nixon years.

It's not their fault.  It's ours.  We built this culture. We continue to put people here.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 11, 2013, 01:53:10 PM
It's not their fault.  It's ours.  We built this culture. We continue to put people here.

Just ignore anything that doesn't fit the construct eh? I seldom open your's or G's links and I find your effort to politicize these murders pretty disgusting.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 01:37:06 PM

This is the fundamental difference between those wanting to give a hand up to the impoverished and those that just perceive any type of community service as a handout.

You always seem to mistake any discussion of long term dependence as the speaker not believing in providing temporary help where needed.  I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that way.

If you truly want to give a hand-up, that hand-up has to have certain expectations as well as defined limits, otherwise it becomes a way of life and does little more than create unwanted dependency.  A hand up points someone in the right direction, it's not meant to become a lifestyle. 

That video was good, that's just how it is. Anyhoo, I understand the cops have a person of intrest in that shooting- they think it's more than one person involved. I guess the cops looked at the victims past connections and people who they knew and started there. KRMG radio mentioned this.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:57:41 PM
Just ignore anything that doesn't fit the construct eh? I seldom open your's or G's links and I find your effort to politicize these murders pretty disgusting.

No intent to politicize anything.  It's not about politics, it's about philosophy.  When you create communities of dependent individuals you create the social problems that come along with that.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 02:01:01 PM
You always seem to mistake any discussion of long term dependence as the speaker not believing in providing temporary help where needed.  I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that way.

If you truly want to give a hand-up, that hand-up has to have certain expectations as well as defined limits, otherwise it becomes a way of life and does little more than create unwanted dependency.  A hand up points someone in the right direction, it's not meant to become a lifestyle. 

You'd have been an ardent supporter of slavery back in the day....

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:22:20 PM

You'd have been an ardent supporter of slavery back in the day....

Yes, that's certainly between the lines of what I wrote.  ::)

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 02:26:42 PM
Yes, that's certainly between the lines of what I wrote.  ::)

Yes, it's the only alternative to the predicament of poverty from yours and Gasious' frames of reference.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:28:34 PM
Yes, it's the only alternative to the predicament of poverty from yours and Gasious' frames of reference.

Let's see if you can offer anything constructive to a conversation than character attacks. (Inferiority complex?)

How do you solve the problem of poverty when you offer a sub-poverty level subsistence to people with no strings attached and no workable roadmap for that person to get out of poverty?

Please, this is a serious question.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:22:20 PM

You'd have been an ardent supporter of slavery back in the day....

It seems you are a proponent a more modern version.

The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves. – Dresden James

It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights – the "right" to education, the "right" to health care, the "right" to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery – hay and a barn for human cattle. – Alexis De Tocquiville

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:51:05 PM
I believe you are using second hand information to draw inferences. Kids from Country Club look just like kids from nearby Newton and Union. Kids go through fences, steal golf balls and turn over trash cans everywhere. I did it. My friends did it and we all roamed through our hoods playing fast and loose. Part of growing up. Mostly harmless.

I think first hand eye witness accounts from members and staff of kids coming from and returning to the houses is pretty good evidence of the neighborhoods from which they came.

I don't consider property destruction and vandalism to be petty or harmless, whether it's a neighbor's house or "the man's" country club.  James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows" has a pretty good track record in this regard.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 02:31:17 PM
Let's see if you can offer anything constructive to a conversation than character attacks. (Inferiority complex?)

How do you solve the problem of poverty when you offer a sub-poverty level subsistence to people with no strings attached and no workable roadmap for that person to get out of poverty?

Please, this is a serious question.

According to you and Gasious, you don't have a "workable roadmap" ..."these people" do not deserve assistance the way you portray the situation. "These people" are parasites from your vantage point.

What do you do about it? You re educate and re train them while providing survival assistance for them in the meantime. You do not rely on religious institutions to perform these functions. And you do not let a few failures in the system serve as examples to why it's failing.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:50:11 PM
According to you and Gasious, you don't have a "workable roadmap" ..."these people" do not deserve assistance the way you portray the situation. "These people" are parasites from your vantage point.

What do you do about it? You re educate and re train them while providing survival assistance for them in the meantime. You do not rely on religious institutions to perform these functions. And you do not let a few failures in the system serve as examples to why it's failing.

I refuse to believe that you really don't get it.

They are not parasites, not by nature.  WE have made them such.  WE as a society are the real criminals for creating and perpetuating this environment. . .and when it backfires on us, rather than change it we figure out better ways to shove it under the carpet or move it away where it's less noticeable, perhaps build a fence around it.

There is no easy solution.  The only workable solutions are hard, and probably unpopular.  One would assume that if you can push a cart a mile back and forth to the Warehouse Market to use your EBT card, it is very likely you can work in other capacities as well.   Work, pride and personal responsibility are the escape hatch for these folks, but if you keep them comfortable in the dark, they will never find it.

Tulsa police make move in south Tulsa quadruple murder; 'more arrests' made

http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/tulsa-police-make-move-in-south-tulsa-quadruple-murder-more-arrests-made (http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/tulsa-police-make-move-in-south-tulsa-quadruple-murder-more-arrests-made)

QuoteTULSA - Tulsa police have confirmed "more arrests" have been made in connection to Monday's quadruple murder at a south Tulsa apartment complex.

TPD's homicide unit began a public search for 33-year-old Joseph Tillman following the slayings, but was eliminated as a suspect shortly after.

Tillman, who was detained thanks to a Kansas arrest on an assault and battery warrant, reportedly knew one of the four women shot to death in the Fairmont Terrace apartment.

Investigators have not released any further details on Friday's new development.

Quote from: Townsend on January 11, 2013, 03:45:44 PM
Tulsa police make move in south Tulsa quadruple murder; 'more arrests' made
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/tulsa-police-make-move-in-south-tulsa-quadruple-murder-more-arrests-made (http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/tulsa-police-make-move-in-south-tulsa-quadruple-murder-more-arrests-made)

People that have been arrested are apparently being questioned about the murders, but no one yet has been arrested for the murder.  Read closer.

Quote from: patric on January 11, 2013, 04:04:14 PM
People that have been arrested are apparently being questioned about the murders, but no one yet has been arrested for murder.  Read closer.

I admit, that is one of the weakest-assed news posts I've ever re-read.  Weakest-assed.

I apologize.  I'm embarrassed for me and Tulsa's local news.

Quote from: Townsend on January 11, 2013, 04:06:07 PM
I admit, that is one of the weakest-assed news posts I've ever re-read.  Weakest-assed.

I apologize.  I'm embarrassed for me and Tulsa's local news.

They are looking into it.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 02:50:11 PM
According to you and Gasious, you don't have a "workable roadmap" ..."these people" do not deserve assistance the way you portray the situation. "These people" are parasites from your vantage point.

What do you do about it? You re educate and re train them while providing survival assistance for them in the meantime. You do not rely on religious institutions to perform these functions. And you do not let a few failures in the system serve as examples to why it's failing.

We are on the same page.  That's always been my position.  Where we seem to differ is in accepting the reality of what we are NOT requiring in exchange for a hand-up.

In my mind, assistance would be free tuition to a trade school, college, or high school/GED program while providing subsistence (food stamps, housing allowance, $$ for basic life necessities) or some sort of minimum working requirement to an individual to help them rise above poverty.  As much as people want to believe there are limits on TANF, SNAP, etc. it's quite easy to stay in these programs with absolutely zero accountability for educating one's way out of the system and eventually becoming independent.

When I see someone using their EBT card while texting on a new iPhone 5, wearing the latest Nike sneakers, Abercrombie clothes, fake nails, tats, and lots of hair work, it makes my blood boil and I make an automatic assumption they are gaming the system.  For some people it's a matter of not making proper decisions regarding life's priorities because no one makes them prioritize.  Nutrition and shelter should be a priority not $150 sneakers or an $89 a month data plan.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 04:14:20 PM

When I see someone using their EBT card while texting on a new iPhone 5, wearing the latest Nike sneakers, Abercrombie clothes, fake nails, tats, and lots of hair work, it makes my blood boil and I make an automatic assumption they are gaming the system. 

While I don't disagree with you.  That would bother me as well.  I've never seen that.

Quote from: Townsend on January 11, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
While I don't disagree with you.  That would bother me as well.  I've never seen that.

Warehouse Market.

Live a little!

On the topic, are you aware that Red Bull is EBT eligible?  It's considered a nutritional supplement.

"Well, they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got, a little more
But it only goes so far
'Cause the law don't change another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar
But who knows "
Bruce Hornsby

Try to not be so judgmental.

Quote from: Teatownclown on January 11, 2013, 04:21:30 PM
"Well, they passed a law in '64
To give those who ain't got, a little more
But it only goes so far
'Cause the law don't change another's mind
When all it sees at the hiring time
Is the line on the color bar
But who knows "
Bruce Hornsby

Try to not be so judgmental.

Because Bruce Hornsby knows what it's like to be black.  Got it.  Great song BTW.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 01:51:05 PM
I believe you are using second hand information to draw inferences. Kids from Country Club look just like kids from nearby Newton and Union. Kids go through fences, steal golf balls and turn over trash cans everywhere. I did it. My friends did it and we all roamed through our hoods playing fast and loose. Part of growing up. Mostly harmless.

But when a subsidized housing addition is nearby its criminal behavior?

I would have thought the businessmen playing golf would have identified with the Wall Street type business acumen they showed. :)

So, if a trusted friend tells me they personally hit a golf ball, saw a pre-teen squeeze thru the fence, run to the location in the fairway where their golf ball was seen to lie (granted from 230 or so yards away), then run back to the fence, squeeze thru said fence and then my friend upon arriving at the same location finds their ball is no longer in the area hears a sales pitch to sell them a ball identical to the one they just hit, complete with his personal mark, that would be second hand information drawing inferences?

If that is the case, I'd either love or hate to have you on a jury if I was on trial for murder.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 04:19:34 PM
Warehouse Market.

Live a little!

On the topic, are you aware that Red Bull is EBT eligible?  It's considered a nutritional supplement.

Pass.

I'm sure many things are eligible that shouldn't be.  I'm guessing the manufacturers push for it.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 04:23:26 PM
Because Bruce Hornsby knows what it's like to be black.  Got it.  Great song BTW.

Bruce Hornsby is black?

Quote from: DTowner on January 11, 2013, 02:41:28 PM
I think first hand eye witness accounts from members and staff of kids coming from and returning to the houses is pretty good evidence of the neighborhoods from which they came.

I don't consider property destruction and vandalism to be petty or harmless, whether it's a neighbor's house or "the man's" country club.  James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows" has a pretty good track record in this regard.

Dude, look up the term "hearsay".

Now its property destruction and vandalism? They moved on from golf ball extortion? One solution....fix the dang holes in the fence.

Quote from: rdj on January 11, 2013, 04:23:35 PM
So, if a trusted friend tells me they personally hit a golf ball, saw a pre-teen squeeze thru the fence, run to the location in the fairway where their golf ball was seen to lie (granted from 230 or so yards away), then run back to the fence, squeeze thru said fence and then my friend upon arriving at the same location finds their ball is no longer in the area hears a sales pitch to sell them a ball identical to the one they just hit, complete with his personal mark, that would be second hand information drawing inferences?

If that is the case, I'd either love or hate to have you on a jury if I was on trial for murder.

Psst. Hey man. I got some primo Titleist. Half price. Barely used man. Really...

Hearsay dude. It never works in court or even when described in minute details. Its just he said, she said. I'm sure your trusted friends never embellish, exaggerate or fabricate, but guess what? Some do.

Your friends got intimidated by pre-teens?

Quote from: Conan71 on January 11, 2013, 04:14:20 PM
When I see someone using their EBT card while texting on a new iPhone 5, wearing the latest Nike sneakers, Abercrombie clothes, fake nails, tats, and lots of hair work, it makes my blood boil and I make an automatic assumption they are gaming the system.  For some people it's a matter of not making proper decisions regarding life's priorities because no one makes them prioritize.  Nutrition and shelter should be a priority not $150 sneakers or an $89 a month data plan.

How about a national minimum income, with government work to go with it if you can't find any and are not disabled to the point of being unable to work?

I'm not really sure what a generous uncle who will buy you frivolous things has to do with being able to eat, though. It may be that we need to require people to provide proof of income (or lack thereof) more often, but plenty of people have nice things and little income, whether it be because the nice things were purchased before the loss of a job or because of the aforementioned generous relatives. Or their clothes could be cheap knockoffs or purchased from one of our many thrift stores. You really have no idea. Assuming things about other people ends up saying more about you than it does the people you're making assumptions about.

I'm sure it would make you feel better if they had messed up hair, dirty jeans, a torn t-shirt, and no cell phone. I've always found that dressing like smile is the best way to get a job, after all.

Quote from: nathanm on January 12, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
How about a national minimum income, with government work to go with it if you can't find any and are not disabled to the point of being unable to work?

Give me a minimum income I where I can keep my toys and buy a new BMW and I'm outa the regular work force tomorrow.  I'm too old to do hard physical labor so find me a cushy desk job for the government.  Sounds great. 

Quote from: nathanm on January 12, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
How about a national minimum income, with government work to go with it if you can't find any and are not disabled to the point of being unable to work?

I'm not really sure what a generous uncle who will buy you frivolous things has to do with being able to eat, though. It may be that we need to require people to provide proof of income (or lack thereof) more often, but plenty of people have nice things and little income, whether it be because the nice things were purchased before the loss of a job or because of the aforementioned generous relatives. Or their clothes could be cheap knockoffs or purchased from one of our many thrift stores. You really have no idea. Assuming things about other people ends up saying more about you than it does the people you're making assumptions about.

I'm sure it would make you feel better if they had messed up hair, dirty jeans, a torn t-shirt, and no cell phone. I've always found that dressing like smile is the best way to get a job, after all.

Well said Nathan. Back in the Nixon years we used to hear that same rant, "he is on welfare but drives a late model car and has a new color TV" and of course the welfare babies rant. As though poor people should not have decent transportation and the same color TV running the same commercials advertising the same items the rest of us wanted. When you looked at the big picture, their housing costs were more modest, their travel limited and their  property taxes miniscule. They were the primary users of mass transit and their schools were sub par. It is about priorities but just because poor minorities have different priorities (family, church, fashion, glitz, whatever) doesn't mean they are all welfare queens.

I've known fairly well heeled people who were down on their luck but still kept appearances for quite some time to not only save face but to stay in the game. Once you're identified as in trouble financially, it becomes even harder to survive.

We want our poor to not just be plainly identifiable as poor, we want them to suffer. Its our Calvinist heritage i guess.

Here comes the red card:

QuoteKansas officials are considering replacing the current benefits card for residents who get food stamps with a bright red one.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/01/11/4006586/kansas-considering-new-red-card.html#storylink=cpy

(http://thepost.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Screen-Shot-2013-01-11-at-11.26.10-AM-300x199.png)

Thought it might be a good idea to post something about 61st and Peoria in the 61st and Peoria thread...


Many of the complexes are owned by limited liability companies formed by out-of-state investors. The companies take a "hands-off" approach to management and aren't bothered by the crime as long as the checks keep coming, say longtime residents of the area.

Records show Fairmont Terrace is owned by two California-based limited liability companies: D.K. Ukiah Properties LLC and 1574 Pacific LLC.

Community activists and neighbors say recent efforts to communicate with Fairmont Terrace's owners about safety concerns have been unsuccessful.

Records list Constance Reynolds of Alameda, Calif., as the sole member and manager of 1574 Pacific LLC, while Doug Solis of Mendocino County, Calif., is listed as managing member of DK Ukiah Properties LLC.

HUD did not respond to a World request for information about its policies and inspections of Fairmont Terrace.

A Tulsa World investigation has found that 17 multi-family properties accept Section 8 rental subsidies exist in the area surrounding Fairmont Terrace, excluding small developments of a few units. Eight of those propoerties are owned by out-of-state interests.

In terms of total individual Section 8 apartment units, out-of-state interests own about two-thirds of those available in the area.

Four properties, including Fairmont Terrace, are "project-based Section 8" developments owned by private companies. Funds are paid directly to the owner by HUD and cannot be used by the tenant elsewhere.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=298&articleid=20130112_296_0_ahrefh413316

Quote from: AquaMan on January 12, 2013, 07:14:25 PM
Well said Nathan. Back in the Nixon years we used to hear that same rant, "he is on welfare but drives a late model car and has a new color TV" and of course the welfare babies rant. As though poor people should not have decent transportation and the same color TV running the same commercials advertising the same items the rest of us wanted. When you looked at the big picture, their housing costs were more modest, their travel limited and their  property taxes miniscule. They were the primary users of mass transit and their schools were sub par. It is about priorities but just because poor minorities have different priorities (family, church, fashion, glitz, whatever) doesn't mean they are all welfare queens.

I've known fairly well heeled people who were down on their luck but still kept appearances for quite some time to not only save face but to stay in the game. Once you're identified as in trouble financially, it becomes even harder to survive.

We want our poor to not just be plainly identifiable as poor, we want them to suffer. Its our Calvinist heritage i guess.

I have no problem with poor people having different priorities up until they require me to pay for a lifestyle they cannot afford.  Fill in your own details.  If there is no reward for success, we guarantee failure.

Quote from: nathanm on January 12, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
Assuming things about other people ends up saying more about you than it does the people you're making assumptions about.

I'm sure it would make you feel better if they had messed up hair, dirty jeans, a torn t-shirt, and no cell phone. I've always found that dressing like smile is the best way to get a job, after all.

So says the man making ASSumptions about me.  Welcome back, Nate.  We missed you.

Quote from: Red Arrow on January 12, 2013, 11:28:51 PM
I have no problem with poor people having different priorities up until they require me to pay for a lifestyle they cannot afford.  Fill in your own details.  If there is no reward for success, we guarantee failure.

When rich people quit forcing poor people to have to have a car (pay for tags, gas, maintenance, a place for the car, insurance, etc.) in order to get to work, buy food, etc. because they want to spend money on things like widening I44 at a cost of over 100 million dollars a mile (I don't want that highway widened it has nothing to do with the lifestyle I want, nor do I want more roads built out into the suburbs for a lifestyle we can not afford, on my tax dollar, etc.) and making pedestrian friendly zoning illegal, etc. etc. well... lets talk.  And thats just one example, you know I can go on lol.   Not saying you don't have a point, but am trying to point out that there is another side to the coin and though there does't always seem to be a direct correlation between the two sides arguments... taken in their entirety, there may be more truth than can be found at first glances taken out of context.  

Quote from: TheArtist on January 13, 2013, 10:28:30 AM
When rich people quit forcing poor people to have to have a car (pay for tags, gas, maintenance, a place for the car, insurance, etc.) in order to get to work, buy food, etc.

I have said in the past that I would support better public transit.  That's not the same as buying someone a big color TV instead of a smaller one or an expensive pair of running shoes rather than a more economical choice.

Quotebecause they want to spend money on things like widening I44 at a cost of over 100 million dollars a mile (I don't want that highway widened it has nothing to do with the lifestyle I want,

Almost everything you buy has spent some time on a truck so roadways do favorably affect your lifestyle, at least economically.

Quotenor do I want more roads built out into the suburbs for a lifestyle we can not afford, on my tax dollar, etc.) and making pedestrian friendly zoning illegal, etc. etc. well... lets talk.

Most of the arterials have been here for a long time.  The upgrades are expensive.  I believe the roads in the housing additions are built by the developer then turned over to the city.  Our little corner is on approximately 1 acre lots.  Most of the newer stuff is 4 to 6 houses per acre, similar to Tulsa's early suburbs like mid-town.  If there had been a better options closer to downtown, many of those housing additions may not have happened.  Then things like the businesses along Memorial between the turnpike and 111th couldn't be supported.  We wouldn't need more than the 2 or 4 lane arterial roads. Memorial is US 64 in this area so it may have needed to be 4 laned but 101st?, 111th?, Sheridan, ...  I agree that pedestrian friendly zoning has its place in downtown areas.  (No Townsend, I still do not want sidewalks in my neighborhood.)   I voted for Vision 2025 because I believed it would be good for the region.  I have not been to the BOK center.  

QuoteAnd thats just one example, you know I can go on lol.

I know you can and so can I.  We have in the past.  I actually agree with some of your previous posts but do not feel they have the universal appeal you would like.





 

Every city has it's own trouble area and trouble apartment complexes, In Columbus, Ohio it was BrierGreen aka "Uzi Avenue" back in the 1990's.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 13, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
Every city has it's own trouble area and trouble apartment complexes, In Columbus, Ohio it was BrierGreen aka "Uzi Avenue" back in the 1990's.

If you say so...

Quote from: Red Arrow on January 13, 2013, 12:38:51 PM
I have said in the past that I would support better public transit.  That's not the same as buying someone a big color TV instead of a smaller one or an expensive pair of running shoes rather than a more economical choice.
Almost everything you buy has spent some time on a truck so roadways do favorably affect your lifestyle, at least economically.
Most of the arterials have been here for a long time.  The upgrades are expensive.  I believe the roads in the housing additions are built by the developer then turned over to the city.  Our little corner is on approximately 1 acre lots.  Most of the newer stuff is 4 to 6 houses per acre, similar to Tulsa's early suburbs like mid-town.  If there had been a better options closer to downtown, many of those housing additions may not have happened.  Then things like the businesses along Memorial between the turnpike and 111th couldn't be supported.  We wouldn't need more than the 2 or 4 lane arterial roads. Memorial is US 64 in this area so it may have needed to be 4 laned but 101st?, 111th?, Sheridan, ...  I agree that pedestrian friendly zoning has its place in downtown areas.  (No Townsend, I still do not want sidewalks in my neighborhood.)   I voted for Vision 2025 because I believed it would be good for the region.  I have not been to the BOK center.  
I know you can and so can I.  We have in the past.  I actually agree with some of your previous posts but do not feel they have the universal appeal you would like.





 

I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

Quote from: custosnox on January 13, 2013, 09:14:39 PM
I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

If he can manage the little money he gets that well, good for him.  He probably won't be starving his kids to buy a TV and then complaining that he needs more money for food.

Quote from: custosnox on January 13, 2013, 09:14:39 PM
I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

That friend is being responsible and smart.

Quote from: nathanm on January 12, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
How about a national minimum income, with government work to go with it if you can't find any and are not disabled to the point of being unable to work?

I think the Soviet Union tried that.

People should have the liberty not to work if they choose, and that choice should come with the spoils of sloth. That is the only way that people truly understand and appreciate the rewards of labor.

I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights. – Abraham Lincoln

Quote from: AquaMan on January 11, 2013, 08:45:51 PM
Psst. Hey man. I got some primo Titleist. Half price. Barely used man. Really...

Hearsay dude. It never works in court or even when described in minute details. Its just he said, she said. I'm sure your trusted friends never embellish, exaggerate or fabricate, but guess what? Some do.

Your friends got intimidated by pre-teens?

This is an internet forum.  Isn't everything posted here, outside of cited articles, considered hearsay?

When is trespassing on someone's property, regardless of intent, not an offense?  There are people in this town, and probably on this forum, that would consider that grounds to put a bullet hole in you.  If someone has invested millions of dollars in their property don't you think they have a right to secure it? 

As far as the fence, when TCC sold a portion of the property the buyer agreed to install a wrought iron fence that wouldn't block the view from the development onto the course, but would deter trespassing.  An "iron" fence was installed, but was not true wrought iron so someone could bend the stiles and squeeze through.  The club recently proposed putting an 8 foot vinyl fence around the entire property to ensure no access to the course.  The developer did not appreciate the tenants losing the view so they split the cost of adding a black chain link to the backside of the metal fence to further deter trespassing.

Bottom line, this is another in a long line of promises subsidized housing developers make and don't follow through on.

Quote from: rdj on January 14, 2013, 09:03:40 AM
This is an internet forum.  Isn't everything posted here, outside of cited articles, considered hearsay?

When is trespassing on someone's property, regardless of intent, not an offense?  There are people in this town, and probably on this forum, that would consider that grounds to put a bullet hole in you.  If someone has invested millions of dollars in their property don't you think they have a right to secure it? 

As far as the fence, when TCC sold a portion of the property the buyer agreed to install a wrought iron fence that wouldn't block the view from the development onto the course, but would deter trespassing.  An "iron" fence was installed, but was not true wrought iron so someone could bend the stiles and squeeze through.  The club recently proposed putting an 8 foot vinyl fence around the entire property to ensure no access to the course.  The developer did not appreciate the tenants losing the view so they split the cost of adding a black chain link to the backside of the metal fence to further deter trespassing.

Bottom line, this is another in a long line of promises subsidized housing developers make and don't follow through on.

From my understanding of Oklahoma law, it's not trespassing unless you are personally told you are not allowed to be there.  So in other words, the no trespassing signs in this state are just to scare people.

I wish the line read "Mayor Has Initiated Apartment Meetings".

Mayor Wants Apartment Meetings

http://kwgs.com/post/mayor-wants-apartment-meetings (http://kwgs.com/post/mayor-wants-apartment-meetings)

QuoteTulsa's rash of crime at low income housing is getting the attention of the city's mayor.

Dewey Bartlett wants regular meetings with apartment complex management to share information about common problems.

He also wants the federal government involved in the meetings, especially in Section 8 housing. The mayor says such meetings were held in the past and they were beneficial.

It was a week ago today that four women were shot and killed at the Fairmont Terrace Apartments near 61st and South Peoria. No suspect has been taken into custody.

Besides that RD, this is not a court of law. Hearsay is a legal concept. One that keeps jurors from using unfounded or second hand conversations as evidence. If you didn't hear it personally, it is hearsay and prone to exaggeration or error. Most lawyers know how much leeway they have in using it, but its also good advice in everyday life to discount what others say when you weren't a party to the original event.

When people talk on a forum its just opinion, sometimes backed up by good research and citations, usually not.

My gawd man, were you never a child? The project I commented on is so much better than most and totally different than one where people are beaten, robbed and murdered...and you're concerned about children trespassing?

We have yet another task force to deal with crime.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=750&articleid=20130114_750_0_Thefir551805

This is not to be confused with the last task force on crime, which just proposed cosmetic changes.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18946.0

Quote from: patric on January 14, 2013, 12:09:23 PM
We have yet another task force to deal with crime.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=750&articleid=20130114_750_0_Thefir551805

This is not to be confused with the last task force on crime, which just proposed cosmetic changes.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18946.0

_____________________________________________________________________________Well, well, well, Tulsa was once a small town where residents left their back doors open so the ice man could put the daily hunk ice in the ice box and he wouldn’t awaken you. The ice plant on Denver also furnished the electricity source for the city and when one bought a new fangled electric ice box the electric bill increased from $1.25 to $2.25 per month.  Cattle grazed at Admiral and Lewis in the pasture. The burb towns surrounded Tulsa where lots were given away for the price of the abstract.

People wanted a big city so they promoted and promoted to make the city into a big city but now are looking for what to do with the Midas Touch when wealth becomes a vacuum drawing into it the ever expanding crime. It even contaminates those chosen by the community that is hired to protect the citizens.

The building of expressways in large cities increases access which increases availability to rapid escapes whereas violence breeds violence.       

Quote from: AquaMan on January 14, 2013, 10:06:56 AM
Besides that RD, this is not a court of law. Hearsay is a legal concept. One that keeps jurors from using unfounded or second hand conversations as evidence. If you didn't hear it personally, it is hearsay and prone to exaggeration or error. Most lawyers know how much leeway they have in using it, but its also good advice in everyday life to discount what others say when you weren't a party to the original event.

When people talk on a forum its just opinion, sometimes backed up by good research and citations, usually not.

My gawd man, were you never a child? The project I commented on is so much better than most and totally different than one where people are beaten, robbed and murdered...and you're concerned about children trespassing?

Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

Quote from: DTowner on January 14, 2013, 03:52:17 PM
Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

I just can't relate to you guys. Will Rogers once said, "Don't believe anything you read in the newspaper and only half of what you see." He did not mean that everything you read is false. He only was pointing out that you should review what you read with caution and apply your own experience and judgment to what you read and see. I wonder if Will Rogers ever stayed very long in Tulsa.

Quote from: DTowner on January 14, 2013, 03:52:17 PM
Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

I just drove through there today around noon. Right past the area you've described. There are single family housing units in that development btw. My friend with kids, a wife and two incomes lives there. He feels strongly about curbing the behaviors you mentioned and most of the residents there do also. They like that "takes a village" thing. If the golfers had spoken to any of them I believe they would have responded. They love it there.

But I noticed no vandalism, trash, graffiti, transients, no cars on the streets, no kids running loose, no hoopties with flats, or even damaged fencing. Those are all things you see near other projects. I did see some dirt piled up and old cyclone fencing perhaps where the club replaced it with that steel tubing fencing.

One wonders, are there any subsidized housing projects that have met your approval? Should they be discontinued?

Some people are wondering if that whole area should just be bulldozed, many of the apartments there are very old and run down anyhow. Bulldoze and rebuild that area to new up-scale apartments. A while ago there was  talk of bulldozing large parts of Detroit, Michigan  to clear up the vacant homes and buildings where drug dealers hang out. That may work in the troubling Peoria/61st street area too. Of course that will only result of the dis-placement and re-location of the criminals to another neighborhood, another apartment complex.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 15, 2013, 10:22:30 AM
Some people are wondering if that whole area should just be bulldozed, many of the apartments there are very old and run down anyhow. Bulldoze and rebuild that area to new up-scale apartments. A while ago there was  talk of bulldozing large parts of Detroit, Michigan  to clear up the vacant homes and buildings where drug dealers hang out. That may work in the troubling Peoria/61st street area too. Of course that will only result of the dis-placement and re-location of the criminals to another neighborhood, another apartment complex.

Back in the 90s when I made frequent ambulance calls there, the apartments were in horrible shape, with holes in the walls, roaches, and carpets that had become something in-between soil and burlap. We hated going there for fear of touching something.  It was definitely a double nitrile glove environment.  Lots of wall punchers too!

I'm sure they have probably been remodeled since then, but they were almost to the point of structural decay.

Quote from: Gaspar on January 15, 2013, 10:28:28 AM
Back in the 90s when I made frequent ambulance calls there, the apartments were in horrible shape, with holes in the walls, roaches, and carpets that had become something in-between soil and burlap. We hated going there for fear of touching something.  It was definitely a double nitrile glove environment.  Lots of wall punchers too!

I'm sure they have probably been remodeled since then, but they were almost to the point of structural decay.

Indeed, some were built around 1965 no doubt they have termite damage and water damage in many of the buildings. Bulldozing it all may be the best way to go. The buildings are likely unfit to live in and full of disease as it is...

The apartments in the 61st and Peoria area were buildings to provide emergency homes tied with integration and built under architect supervision, subsidized by the ever generalized spending of the federal government.  Number one materials were used throughout the buildings and completion was by inspections. This, one is aware of when they are subcontractors in the construction of the buildings.

They were built in many locations throughout the city and the nation.  There may be cosmetic damages to parts, created by failure to maintain the structures due to the damages of the interiors because of the government regulations in this ever rising inflation.

We are comparing interest rates at 7% to the present rate of 2.9%.  On the 27 million dollar loan that doesn't give one much for the maintenance on apartments that are qualified for title 8 occupies. 

Bulldozing buildings should be scrutinized unlike the city hall escapade that is costing the working poor multimillions of dollars.  If one of those posting is going to run for county assessors you sure have my vote.             

Quote from: shadows on January 18, 2013, 07:15:11 PM

The apartments in the 61st and Peoria area were buildings to provide emergency homes tied with integration and built under architect supervision, subsidized by the ever generalized spending of the federal government.  Number one materials were used throughout the buildings and completion was by inspections. This, one is aware of when they are subcontractors in the construction of the buildings.

They were built in many locations throughout the city and the nation.  There may be cosmetic damages to parts, created by failure to maintain the structures due to the damages of the interiors because of the government regulations in this ever rising inflation.

We are comparing interest rates at 7% to the present rate of 2.9%.  On the 27 million dollar loan that doesn't give one much for the maintenance on apartments that are qualified for title 8 occupies. 

Bulldozing buildings should be scrutinized unlike the city hall escapade that is costing the working poor multimillions of dollars.  If one of those posting is going to run for county assessors you sure have my vote.             

They were built to spread the blight that was Apache Manor to other areas of the city, in part to relieve the intensity of the police presence in one concentrated area.  Seemed like a good idea at the time....

"Number 1" materials were NEVER used in the construction of those buildings.  They were built to "low bid" and ALL that implies.  And developers and builders were just as corrupt and cut just as many corners - if not more - than today.  Right, TeaTownClown??

Cosmetic damage?  None of that sentence means anything.... want to try again??  As for inflation - since you are so old, surely you remember deflation, don't you??   Didn't you ever listen to the members of your family when you were younger about the deflation??  If you had, you would be down on your knees thanking God for the small average annual inflation we have had for the last 70 years!  It has been a boon to us.  We have been vastly more stable than at any comparable time frame in the history of our country.  We have enjoyed the benefits of that relative stability more than any previous group of people in those time frames in the history of our country.  We have literally lived in a true "golden age" and have become SO spoiled due to our lack of experience with any other set of conditions that it is truly breathtaking - as in reduced ability to breath - how clueless we are.  And you, who claims to have had so many decades of "experience", have no sense of history.

As for $27 million dollar loans...  ??   If someone cannot make a business case to do the necessary maintenance they should never have gotten a loan to do that business activity (not just apartments, but any business).  And the lender should never have made the loan.  Section 8 has nothing to do with a business analysis.  Interest rates are irrelevant.  7% or 3% - doesn't matter to the action of making the case...you either can or can't at 7% in the same fashion as you can or can't at 3%.


Hint to post a legible note;  open a text editor, type what you think you want to say.  Then come back 5 minutes later and reread it.  See if the thoughts make sense.  See if there is a logical flow, with proper word position within the sentence - in other words, good grammar and sentence structure.  Then save it in a file while you go find someone else to proof read it for you.  Ensure clarity.  I suspect you have some thoughts that may make sense, but they just don't make it this far.

And then, if you can accomplish none of those follow on activities, delete the file without posting.

"The primary determinants of any war are predominantly economic in nature". A quote I remember from a History of Economics course in college. I find that it applies to many spheres of life including the effort here in the mid 60's to make subsidized housing work. Some had good intentions, some had economic intentions and some had confused intentions.

As I noted before, I worked on some of those projects in the late sixties. I assure you they were not the best and the brightest builders using the best materials and designs available on the most desirable property at the time. They were apartment builders, period.

Quote from: AquaMan on January 19, 2013, 10:24:48 AM
"The primary determinants of any war are predominantly economic in nature".

You need to put religion up near the top too.

With the assertion of the poster that the repeal of price control began "the golden age", allowing industrial America to take their industries to foreign countries in order to place the burden of government on the backs of the working poor, telling the people the repeal would create jobs, which it did all over the world whereas; we are going to the world bank now to raise our credit rating.

But all is not lost loss.  The Mayor is looking at licensing low cost apartments for inspection fee's.  Of course they are subject to inspections.  Trouble is there seems to be no one to prod the inspectors in doing their job.

The question is if the low rent apartments are in the way of the future development of the river jewel?         

TW FB post:

QuoteA state agency approved tax-exempt financing Wednesday as part of a $43 million deal by investors to buy the Fairmont Terrace apartment complex in Tulsa and "make it a safe place for people to live."

Quote from: Townsend on January 31, 2013, 10:14:02 AM
TW FB post:

I just don't think throwing money at this is going to do much good.

Quote from: Hoss on January 31, 2013, 10:51:38 AM
I just don't think throwing money at this is going to do much good.

Not unless it suddenly becomes an office park or a bird sanctuary.

edited to add a bit more to the story:

A Tulsa Leader Applauds a Deal to Allow Tax Credits to Purchase Fairmont Terrace

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-leader-applauds-deal-allow-tax-credits-purchase-fairmont-terrace (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-leader-applauds-deal-allow-tax-credits-purchase-fairmont-terrace)

QuoteA financing deal to purchase and improve a troubled Tulsa apartment complex moves forward. The Oklahoma Housing Finance Agency okays tax exempt financing for new investors to buy Fairmont Terrace, the site of the recent murders of four women. Part of the deal includes security improvements at the federally subsidized complex. Tulsa City Council Chair David Patrick applauds the deal and hopes it will make a difference.

Now that tax exempt financing has been okayed, closing is expected soon and upgrades to the property can then begin.

I'm asking, because I have no idea and I tend to be cynical.  Will there be anyone watching over the "upgrades"?

Quote from: Townsend on January 31, 2013, 11:06:43 AM
Not unless it suddenly becomes an office park or a bird sanctuary.

edited to add a bit more to the story:

A Tulsa Leader Applauds a Deal to Allow Tax Credits to Purchase Fairmont Terrace

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-leader-applauds-deal-allow-tax-credits-purchase-fairmont-terrace (http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-leader-applauds-deal-allow-tax-credits-purchase-fairmont-terrace)

I'm asking, because I have no idea and I tend to be cynical.  Will there be anyone watching over the "upgrades"?

You're funny.  Of course not.

TIF money will now go to "contractors." 
You will see the construction of a new entry gate and some shrubs.  The cheapest and brightest possible security lights will be installed all over the place making it look like a maximum security prison. There will be some emergency (blue light) phones installed on the property so that the residents can talk to the police about their "experiences", and a new golf cart for the security guard will be purchased.

That, or they could just tear it down.

Townsend - The Tax Credit program for Low income housing is strictly regulated with both independent and governmental (HUD) review and confirmation that the improvements included in the credit application and HUD standards are strictly complied with. 

Gaspar - You are incorrect in asserting that the funding will go to the contractors, additionally it is not TIF (Tax Increment Financing) it is mid to long term Tax Credits granted to the owners which are paid out on a per month occupied basis following completion of the approved improvements.  It is strictly and well regulated.  Many, but not all projects capitalize the future tax credits in order to raise a portion of the capitol necessary for improvements.  Again this process is highly regulated and is a good program. 

This is good news for this area.

Quote from: Vision 2025 on February 01, 2013, 09:22:27 AM
Townsend - The Tax Credit program for Low income housing is strictly regulated with both independent and governmental (HUD) review and confirmation that the improvements included in the credit application and HUD standards are strictly complied with. 

Gaspar - You are incorrect in asserting that the funding will go to the contractors, additionally it is not TIF (Tax Increment Financing) it is mid to long term Tax Credits granted to the owners which are paid out on a per month occupied basis following completion of the approved improvements.  It is strictly and well regulated.  Many, but not all projects capitalize the future tax credits in order to raise a portion of the capitol necessary for improvements.  Again this process is highly regulated and is a good program. 

This is good news for this area.

Thank you for the answers.  The article mentions "new investors".  Anyone know if these investors are still out of state?

Will a list of projects be available to the public?

I heard on KWGS this morning that the complex will close for the upgrades.  Does this mean the tenants will be removed for the work?

There are two methods on tenants.  One is a building by building renovation where tenants are relocated within the project following completion and the other is wholesale closure.  Either way HUD has to approve the relocations.  I have done projects both ways and both have their advantages, sadly for long term residents the wholesale shut down is the lesser expensive and safer method for major improvements and also lets management start fresh with new screened tenants but they can loose good long term residents in the process.  

I'm not (presently) involved in this one so not sure how it will go.

The Tax Credit package once approved is a public document and should includes descriptions and itemized cost estimates for the proposed work.  The improvements are closely reviewed.

Quote from: Vision 2025 on February 01, 2013, 10:08:28 AM
There are two methods on tenants.  One is a building by building renovation where tenants are relocated within the project following completion and the other is wholesale closure.  Either way HUD has to approve the relocations.  I have done projects both ways and both have their advantages, sadly for long term residents the wholesale shut down is the lesser expensive and safer method for major improvements and also lets management start fresh with new screened tenants but they can loose good long term residents in the process.  

I'm not (presently) involved in this one so not sure how it will go.

The Tax Credit package once approved is a public document and should includes descriptions and itemized cost estimates for the proposed work.  The improvements are closely reviewed.

Thanks again.

Quote from: Vision 2025 on February 01, 2013, 09:22:27 AM
Townsend - The Tax Credit program for Low income housing is strictly regulated with both independent and governmental (HUD) review and confirmation that the improvements included in the credit application and HUD standards are strictly complied with.  
Gaspar - You are incorrect in asserting that the funding will go to the contractors, additionally it is not TIF (Tax Increment Financing) it is mid to long term Tax Credits granted to the owners which are paid out on a per month occupied basis following completion of the approved improvements.  It is strictly and well regulated.  Many, but not all projects capitalize the future tax credits in order to raise a portion of the capitol necessary for improvements.  Again this process is highly regulated and is a good program.

Perhaps to Gaspar's point, do the Regulations exclude those owners from hiring electricians to light the block like a prison yard, and other, meaningless cosmetic "improvements"?

The experiment failed, and buying more lipstick for the pig isnt a last-minute save.
I would at least hope the property owners get a fair price if the city uses Eminent Domain to reduce the concentration of poverty in the area.

Quote from: patric on February 01, 2013, 10:57:22 AM

I would at least hope the property owners get a fair price if the city uses Eminent Domain to reduce the concentration of poverty in the area.

This morning's story quoted someone saying that they hoped to rid the complex of section 8 housing.

Quote from: patric on February 01, 2013, 10:57:22 AM
Perhaps to Gaspar's point, do the Regulations exclude those owners from hiring electricians to light the block like a prison yard, and other, meaningless cosmetic "improvements"?

The experiment failed, and buying more lipstick for the pig isnt a last-minute save.
I would at least hope the property owners get a fair price if the city uses Eminent Domain to reduce the concentration of poverty in the area.

Then what happens, you distribute more crime throughout the city?

Quote from: Conan71 on February 01, 2013, 12:19:35 PM
Then what happens, you distribute more crime throughout the city?

Spread, or dilute?

Quote from: patric on February 01, 2013, 01:03:04 PM
Spread, or dilute?

Crime is crime.  You don't dilute it, you simply spread it around.

Quote from: Conan71 on February 01, 2013, 01:20:28 PM
Crime is crime.  You don't dilute it, you simply spread it around.

Sometimes it's more easy to handle crime  if it's spread into smaller pockets, instead of having one huge area of crime where criminals can scatter every time the cops move in. What's more easy to clean up a few pieces of trash scattered around in tiny clumps or one large huge trash heap, that requires many men with big scoops to clean up? The revolving door of justice needs to stop to, many criminals are repeat offenders over & over.

I can say from personal experience that it's a lot easier to shovel a big pile of trash than it is to go around with one of those grabber things picking up individual items. I can also say from that experience that high school football fans are complete slobs.

That's the problem with analogies, they usually end up being completely stupid. Violent crime is not like litter. Litter doesn't have family and friends looking out for it.

Lets keep an eye on this.  Good intensions are just that, and to hammer my old signature line, INTENSIONS ARE NOT RESULTS.

We are patient folks, we've watched and commented on many projects over the years.  I am happy to say I've been wrong about several of them, and I may be wrong about this one, but without changing the culture at the complex, I am very doubtful that any service, cosmetic, mechanical or structural improvements will impact crime.

The problem is not the location, it is the people that live there, and the reasons why they live there.  As long as they are without investment in their environment, they will treat it without pride.

Quote from: sauerkraut on February 01, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
Sometimes it's more easy to handle crime  if it's spread into smaller pockets, instead of having one huge area of crime where criminals can scatter every time the cops move in. What's more easy to clean up a few pieces of trash scattered around in tiny clumps or one large huge trash heap, that requires many men with big scoops to clean up? The revolving door of justice needs to stop to, many criminals are repeat offenders over & over.

Since everyone else is too busy dismissing your stupidity, I'll go ahead and dismiss it after I type this.

Tulsa No. 90 on most violent 100.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/top100dangerous/

Quote from: patric on February 01, 2013, 01:03:04 PM
Spread, or dilute?

That's what the plan was for the original dissemination of Apache Manor.  And we can see it really didn't help much.  So doing the same thing again, expecting different results would be...what,... insane??  Yeah.  That's what it would be.

Kind of like our "war on drugs".  Or our most recent rush to insanity of trying the same gun ban carp that didn't work before.

When the only tool ya got is a hammer,...all problems look like a nail.

Quote from: sauerkraut on February 01, 2013, 01:42:42 PM
Sometimes it's more easy to handle crime  if it's spread into smaller pockets, instead of having one huge area of crime where criminals can scatter every time the cops move in. What's more easy to clean up a few pieces of trash scattered around in tiny clumps or one large huge trash heap, that requires many men with big scoops to clean up? The revolving door of justice needs to stop to, many criminals are repeat offenders over & over.

No, it's not.  Spreading just means spreading, not alleviating.

As for small pieces of trash - have you driven up and down the highways and seen the signs where some company or organization takes care of a section of road?  Lots of small pieces spread over a wide area takes MUCH more effort to deal with. 

Since most of the country sees crime rates reducing, and since Chicago is already a crime haven, perhaps we could just re-purpose the city to be the depository of criminals from the rest of the country - like in "Escape From New York"??  Perhaps Rahm Emanuel could be the Snake Plissken of Chi town...??


You mean repeat offenders, as in over an over they offend??

Quality of Life Task Force Gets to Work

http://www.tulsacouncil.org/ (http://www.tulsacouncil.org/)

QuoteThe 61st and Peoria Quality of Life Task Force had its first meeting last week. The group focused on framing goals and forming the following committees:

Housing
Safety
Health
Education
Social Services
Finances
Those who were not able to attend the first meeting, but would like to join a committee can call 918-596-1922.

The next meeting will be Tuesday, March 5, at 5:30 p.m. on the fourth floor of City Hall.

Mayor Bartlett spoke to some students answering questions at TCC, and in response to a question about crime, he went straight to multi-family apartment complexes.  He was saying that he is trying to make owners of apartments be required to be license, and that the license would require some form of intruder security and "some level of inquiry as to who is staying and that he or she does not have a felony record."  So it seems to me that his plan is to make felons either come up with the money to rent a house, buy their own, or be homeless.

TW FB post:

QuoteAutopsy reports for the four women killed earlier this year at a south Tulsa apartment complex showed that each tested positive for methamphetamine.

No way.  That. is. crazy. talk.

Police are seeking a man and woman suspected of pistol-whipping a teen during a carjacking late Monday.

The driver was traveling near 41st Street and Utica Avenue with her windows down when a man and woman jumped into the car around 11:30 p.m. and demanded she drive to 61st Street and Peoria Avenue, police said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/Robbers_abandon_puppy_during_carjacking/20130430_298_robbe_46286

Residents near 43rd Street and Lewis Avenue called police after the teen stuck her head through a pet door in order to show them her injuries, Eberle said.