http://www.kwtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=10808295
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Why Are Some Businesses Coming to Tulsa, Not Oklahoma City?
Posted: Jul 29, 2009 12:44 AM Updated: Jul 29, 2009 7:20 AM
With the Thunder coming to OKC, many thought there would be an explosion of high-end businesses and restaurants opening downtown. While that hasn't happened, Tulsa is booming with new business.
By Amy Lester, NEWS 9
OKLAHOMA CITY -- Quite a few big names businesses are coming to Oklahoma. But they're deciding to set up shop in Tulsa, not in Oklahoma City.
There's no simple answer. City leaders even argue any new business that comes to the state is good for both cities.
It's hard to ignore the flashy commercials for the new Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Tulsa. They have a lot of people talking about what's going to Tulsa and not to Oklahoma City.
"You never want people in your city to be envious of what goes on in another city," said Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett.
But some are, even though, a Hard Rock Casino here is not possible, since there's no Indian land in Oklahoma City.
Then there's the BOK Center with big names showing up, while the Ford Center's closed for renovations.
"Our arena's going to have a, like, new appearance here in a couple of years and that trend will revert back and then you'll see the typical competition going on," Cornett said
The popular restaurant and arcade Dave and Buster's also recently opened its doors in Tulsa.
"I think if Tulsa gets good things that's probably good and it probably improves that chances that things are going to happen in Oklahoma City more quickly," Cornett said.
We have something Tulsa doesn't, the NBA, which attracted the nationally known bar Coyote Ugly. Besides that, there hasn't been an explosion of big league developments. The Chamber of Commerce blames that on the economy.
"I think everybody just needs to be a little bit patient in this economic environment," said Cynthia Reid, Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce. "Companies are waiting to make decisions about their next location, but Oklahoma City is a shining star compared to a lot of other places."
The city's aggressively trying to recruit new businesses. When they'll actually be here, is the question.
"I would love to tell you that for sure we're going to get some of these higher-end restaurants and higher-end destination retail just around the corner, and I think it is just around the corner, but I've been thinking that for a year or two now and it hasn't happened yet,"Cornett said.
The Chamber also says if the business does well in Tulsa, it may then decide to come to Oklahoma City.
The Mayor also suggests focusing on what the city has accomplished instead of what's not happening in Oklahoma City.
na-na-na-na-boo-boo
OKLAHOMA CITY -- The first MAPS projects transformed downtown Oklahoma City. Now voters could soon be asked to extend a one cent sales tax to fund a series of multi million dollar projects known as MAPS 3.
The first idea is to replace the Cox Convention Center with a newer larger building. That would cost between 250 and 400 million dollars. Another option includes building a new 40 acre central park just south of I-40.
A third option includes a series of streetcars, running on rails along downtown streets with wires overhead. That would cost 120 million dollars. "The goal is to connect the major districts in and around downtown together, so all you have to do is park once," said Jeff Bezdek.
Mayor Cornett has said he'd like to finalize the MAPS 3 plans by the end of September. That would allow the city council to send it to voters by the end of the year.
http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-maps3-ideas-story,0,7492117.story (http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-news-maps3-ideas-story,0,7492117.story)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/baby_crying_closeup.jpg)
To be fair, the article doesn't really come across as them crying not fair. They are just lamenting our recent uptick in activity and wishing they continued their momentum. While at the same time looking wondering why their new arena activity hasn't spurred new development in that area (familiar?). The officials interviewed pointed out that good news in Tulsa can end up being good news in OKC. I really didn't get a bitter vibe from the article, just wishing they were getting some of the neat things Tulsa is.
I'd be more thrilled if the development was job creation. If Corporate HQs, manufacturing facilities, and other high quality jobs were moving to Tulsa over OKC (or anywhere else, for that matter). Having a Hard Rock Casino and a Dave and Busters is great . . . but doesn't really drive the economy.
Plus, we are still behind OKC in some areas of development and attracting events. OKC just got named an Olympic training spot. Their arena redevelopment will bring their concerts back. Their downtown is active. OKC is doing just fine. Each city has things it can learn from the other.
And we'd have a TON to learn from OKC if they got that light rail system they are talking about!
side note on the Hard Rock Casino:
I believe it would have been much more effective for the three large Casino's (Cherokee, Creek, Osage) to be built in a common area. Probably along the West Bank where the concrete plant is now. Have them close by each other so business, shops, restaurants, and other touristy things could spring up around them. With a cluster of 3 large and nice hotel/casino's it would actually be a tourist destination rivaling Tunica or Biloxi. Enough to draw people in to town for a long weekend or maybe even some more conference etc. While in town certainly they'd end up in the Blue Dome, catch a show, spend money on Cherry Street or Brookside, go to a museum, etc.
As it stands we have three nice Casino's spread out over long distances that do nothing to compliment each other. Why do you think Casino's in Vegas want to be on the strip? Because people like to go from one to the other when losing money and in the end the Casinos each make MORE money.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 30, 2009, 12:06:12 PM
side note on the Hard Rock Casino:
I believe it would have been much more effective for the three large Casino's (Cherokee, Creek, Osage) to be built in a common area. Probably along the West Bank where the concrete plant is now. Have them close by each other so business, shops, restaurants, and other touristy things could spring up around them. With a cluster of 3 large and nice hotel/casino's it would actually be a tourist destination rivaling Tunica or Biloxi. Enough to draw people in to town for a long weekend or maybe even some more conference etc. While in town certainly they'd end up in the Blue Dome, catch a show, spend money on Cherry Street or Brookside, go to a museum, etc.
As it stands we have three nice Casino's spread out over long distances that do nothing to compliment each other. Why do you think Casino's in Vegas want to be on the strip? Because people like to go from one to the other when losing money and in the end the Casinos each make MORE money.
MONORAIL, MONORAIL, MONORAIL
(http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:zwseiOxGRY55SM:http://www.griffindor.org.uk/cutenews/data/upimages/monorail.jpg)
Tulsa got a Dave & Busters - wow, we're really blowing OKC away!
The sad thing is, Tulsa's recent successes have merely stop us from losing ground to OKC (and other regionally comparable cities). None of that changes the structual advantages OKC has over us - state capitol, larger population base, close proximity to the largest state university, nearly every major highway in the state dissects it, etc. With the hundreds of millions of state dollars to move I40 south, NBA team, the proposal for a MAPS 3, etc., OKC is clearly not resting on past accomplishments.
Tulsa has some momentum, but we cannot rest on V2025 or any other recent success if we want to maintain our current distance from OKC, much less gain any real ground.
It is funny, however, that OKC tells Tulsans that what's good for OKC is good for all Oklahomans, but many in OKC don't seem to agree with the reverse.
Quote from: Townsend on July 30, 2009, 11:38:59 AM
OKLAHOMA CITY -- The first MAPS projects transformed downtown Oklahoma City. Now voters could soon be asked to extend a one cent sales tax to fund a series of multi million dollar projects known as MAPS 3.
A temporary tax extended? Say it isn't so. I'm confident that in 2020, they'll be voting on MAPS 10.
Wow.. I like how they throw out Coyote Ugly at the end... They can have it.
Read this: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18623-tulsa-not-okc-getting-hard-rock.html
The hand-wringing is hilarious. Everyone is going out of their way to explain why it isn't a big deal. You've even got a reporter from the Jokelahoman getting in on the action. It's a weird collection of sour grapes and outright anger.
I'm with CF--it's honestly not a big deal. But it's always entertaining to see how jealous OKC gets when the superiority meme they perpetuate bumps into reality.
Quote from: Floyd on July 30, 2009, 02:28:26 PM
Read this: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/18623-tulsa-not-okc-getting-hard-rock.html
The hand-wringing is hilarious. Everyone is going out of their way to explain why it isn't a big deal. You've even got a reporter from the Jokelahoman getting in on the action. It's a weird collection of sour grapes and outright anger.
I'm with CF--it's honestly not a big deal. But it's always entertaining to see how jealous OKC gets when the superiority meme they perpetuate bumps into reality.
Anyone remember when the NBA franchise was "good" for Tulsa too? Anyone else been to a Thunder game yet? Not me.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 30, 2009, 02:38:47 PM
Anyone remember when the NBA franchise was "good" for Tulsa too? Anyone else been to a Thunder game yet? Not me.
I'll never go after that doosh Cornett made his comments.
I'm waiting for OKCPulse the Houstonian ;D to chime in.
I don't really think these are big businesses that give us any great bragging rights. But they are a smattering of plusses none the less. Better having them than not.
I am still wondering what our "next phase" or plan is going to be. I would personally like to see the Pearl District done of course. But it would also be great if the proposed development across from the arena happened, and perhaps whatever it is that might be going on in the East End lol.
I get the feeling that Tulsa isnt in the mood for big MAPS like projects. Our best bet is to keep pushing through high quality, smaller ones here and there. We may not have all the big flash bangs that OKC has been working on, but if we keep up a slow steady sizzle one day people may look around at Tulsa and be suprised at just how brightly we will shine.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 30, 2009, 12:06:12 PM
side note on the Hard Rock Casino:
I believe it would have been much more effective for the three large Casino's (Cherokee, Creek, Osage) to be built in a common area. Probably along the West Bank where the concrete plant is now. Have them close by each other so business, shops, restaurants, and other touristy things could spring up around them. With a cluster of 3 large and nice hotel/casino's it would actually be a tourist destination rivaling Tunica or Biloxi. Enough to draw people in to town for a long weekend or maybe even some more conference etc. While in town certainly they'd end up in the Blue Dome, catch a show, spend money on Cherry Street or Brookside, go to a museum, etc.
As it stands we have three nice Casino's spread out over long distances that do nothing to compliment each other. Why do you think Casino's in Vegas want to be on the strip? Because people like to go from one to the other when losing money and in the end the Casinos each make MORE money.
The placement of the casinos isn't really by choice of the tribes. The pacts say they have to place the casinos on trust land. Getting new land placed in trust is not an easy task (a wall in the warehouse of cherokee casino is cantered in to follow the trust line since that was the easier choice.) I'm not sure who decides what is placed in trust, but I think it's Federal. So, since it takes a lot to do, and follows a number of set laws on what can be placed in trust, having a "strip" just would not be feasible.
Its hard enough to stay here and watch the impact the casinos have forced on this community. Its bad enough they have circled the city. Had they formed a nucleus on the West Bank, I would have fled by now. Tunica was a farming community, I'm told, till the casinos came and changed their way of life forever.
Lets see, has OKC had a large casino influence during the last decade? I hear a big one is open or about to open, so we'll see just how resilient their community is when faced with that huge sucking noise money makes when casinos open.
Quote from: waterboy on July 30, 2009, 08:40:32 PM
Its hard enough to stay here and watch the impact the casinos have forced on this community. Its bad enough they have circled the city. Had they formed a nucleus on the West Bank, I would have fled by now. Tunica was a farming community, I'm told, till the casinos came and changed their way of life forever.
Lets see, has OKC had a large casino influence during the last decade? I hear a big one is open or about to open, so we'll see just how resilient their community is when faced with that huge sucking noise money makes when casinos open.
Sucking noise?
We've talked about this before, where do you think the money spent in those casinos goes? Let's start with the 1800 people that work at the Hard Rock.
Best Buy sucks money out of our economy a lot more than the Hard Rock does.
So a 12 guage causes more damage than a 22. Now we're splitting hairs as to who sucks more money out of our community and where it goes? Well, Best Buy hires people too. And pays for electricity, water and local maintenance. Big deal. At least they hire without race and nationality preference.
Why argue this over and over? There was more diversity of culture, more restaurants, more local flavor, before the city was surrounded by casinos. It has not been a net positive imo for millions of dollars a day of discretionary income to flow through gambling establishments owned by other nations. It coursens our culture. Not to mention those who suffer from spending non discretionary income. And, is it mere coincidence that as they grew, our infrastructure has diminished?
Of course its here to stay. No use denying its impact though. No use denying that OKC was not surrounded by casinos as it prospered the last decade.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 30, 2009, 02:38:47 PM
Anyone remember when the NBA franchise was "good" for Tulsa too? Anyone else been to a Thunder game yet? Not me.
For the first time, I saw someone with the OKC Thunder bumper sticker on their car yesterday. I don't know if they were actually from OKC though, but maybe it will just take a little time. I would rather see a football( or soccer for that matter) team here though since basketball is a terrible spectator sport.
Quote from: waterboy on July 30, 2009, 11:04:42 PM
So a 12 guage causes more damage than a 22. Now we're splitting hairs as to who sucks more money out of our community and where it goes? Well, Best Buy hires people too. And pays for electricity, water and local maintenance. Big deal. At least they hire without race and nationality preference.
Why argue this over and over? There was more diversity of culture, more restaurants, more local flavor, before the city was surrounded by casinos. It has not been a net positive imo for millions of dollars a day of discretionary income to flow through gambling establishments owned by other nations. It coursens our culture. Not to mention those who suffer from spending non discretionary income. And, is it mere coincidence that as they grew, our infrastructure has diminished?
Of course its here to stay. No use denying its impact though. No use denying that OKC was not surrounded by casinos as it prospered the last decade.
Sorry, but you are completely off base here. You are wrong,
The Casinos for the most part just recirculate money in our economy. They employ far more people than Best Buy, they are local businesses where the profits remain local and the product they sell isn't manufactured in China.
When you buy a $100 piece of electronics at Best Buy the impact on the local economy is the paycheck of salesperson who you paid. Maybe, maybe two bucks of the purchase price stays local. The only real benefit to the local economy is sales tax. The rent on the building probably goes to an out of state company, the profits on the sale certainly do. The cost and profit from the manufacture of the item probably goes out of the country. That doesn't make Best Buy bad, but they aren't helping the local economy any.
You spend $100 at a casino and the vast majority of it is going to stay in the local economy. The portion of the cost of the service (gambling) that is worker cost is far higher and the profits remain local and are spent pretty directly into the local economy. There will be some debt service and other costs that are passed out of the local economy, but by far most of that $100 is staying here.
What's more, almost no one is going to travel to visit Best Buy, and a lot of the people spending money at the local casinos are from out of town. You mention the impact on Tunica. Those casinos were not built by sucking money out of the local economy of a farming community.
+1 Swake. A locally owned casino circulates money in the economy. It may probably retains extra money and may bring in outside money. Retaining money by holding funds here that would otherwise be spent elsewhere and bringing in money by attracting tourists, keeping locals gambling here, or the occasional dollar from someone who happens to be in town.
The dollars spent go to the tribe. Which is essentially a local entity. Cash disbursements, education, new business ventures, and wages all come from that money. Not nearly as productive for the local economy (in my unstudied opinion here) as manufacturing, but better than an out of state retailer.
custosnox:
Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting. With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level. I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions, I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.
Artist nails it - Tulsa is not yet ready for a V2025 Part II. I think that is in large part because there hasn't been any development around the BOK and other downtown devleopment is somewhat spread out and not obvious unless you spend a lot of time downtown. People in OKC supported MAPS II because they saw that MAPS I worked and bought into the idea that it would work again.
The next couple of years are critical - more clear successes and the attraction of private development $ to downtown because of Tulsa's investment need to happen. When it does, and I believe it will, I think a majority of Tulsans will want to keep moving forward (and PlaniTulsa's outcome demonstrates many realize that downtown must continue to be the focal point and a priorty).
As for Indian gaming - there isn't much the state or city can do about it. It's here, it's successful and it's going to continue to grow for the foreseeable future. Tulsa needs to focus on how to capitalize on it for its own advantage.
As for OKC, a tribe based in far NE Okla. was trying to put land into trust (located just north of I35/I44 interchange) for a large casino. OKC and even the State were opposing it because of negative impact on Remington Park. I believe Remington Park is now under contract to be sold to a tribe.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 31, 2009, 09:20:19 AM
+1 Swake. A locally owned casino circulates money in the economy. It may probably retains extra money and may bring in outside money. Retaining money by holding funds here that would otherwise be spent elsewhere and bringing in money by attracting tourists, keeping locals gambling here, or the occasional dollar from someone who happens to be in town.
The dollars spent go to the tribe. Which is essentially a local entity. Cash disbursements, education, new business ventures, and wages all come from that money. Not nearly as productive for the local economy (in my unstudied opinion here) as manufacturing, but better than an out of state retailer.
custosnox:
Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting. With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level. I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions, I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.
I don't disagree, but in fairness you have to factor in the negatives: most of the gaming money spent and all of the food/beverage/accommodation/concert sales at the casinos are non-taxable transactions for purposes of state/local sales taxes (a portion of class III games pay a small tax to the state). While the casino's undoubtably draw in spenders from outside the Tulsa area, a lot of local Tulsa money is being spent in casinos that would otherwise be spent in other local establishments subject to state/local sales taxes.
I suspect that, on balance, the casinos are net economic contributors to the local econonmy/tax base, but at the micro level there have been some losers.
Tunica was a filthy poverty pocket before the casinos. Granted there are people from that area who should not be playing in the casinos, but I believe the casinos have provided more local jobs in that area than agriculture was prior to the casinos arriving.
Personally, I'm not much of a gambler at all and can't ignore the deleterious effects they've had on people who have a gambling addiction. Like anything, I suppose they are okay in moderation. There is apparently a demand for them.
I don't think casino's are magic bullets or all rosy goodness. People who shouldn't gamble, do. Money that could go elsewhere goes to the Casino. Just sayin' it isn't a huge sucking sound.
I don't gamble much either. And while I feel bad for those that waste all their money gambling, these are people that absent a casino probably would have still found a way to waste all their money.
It might help if OKC cleaned up their water supplies.
First they use the Oklahoma river to try to kill the swimmers and now Frontier City.
http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title (http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title)
"Frontier City shut down due to E. coli in water"
Fresh water, not sewer water may bring in more business. Just an opinion.
Quote from: Townsend on July 31, 2009, 10:41:36 AM
It might help if OKC cleaned up their water supplies.
First they use the Oklahoma river to try to kill the swimmers and now Frontier City.
http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title (http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title)
"Frontier City shut down due to E. coli in water"
Fresh water, not sewer water may bring in more business. Just an opinion.
I have to admit it was a bit scary to see Canadian and Mexican rowers jumping into the Okla. River after winning rowing events last year. Then again, our river may seem like a sanitary stream compared to what they've got back home.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on July 31, 2009, 09:20:19 AM
custosnox:
Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting. With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level. I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions, I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.
As I said, I'm not familiar with the restrictions, but they are limited to where they can build. They are planning on opening up some casinos in some strange places, and are doing it here do to that is where the trust land lays.
Quote from: swake on July 31, 2009, 08:39:59 AM
The Casinos for the most part just recirculate money in our economy.........
You spend $100 at a casino and the vast majority of it is going to stay in the local economy.
The portion of the cost of the service (gambling) that is worker cost is far higher and the profits remain local and are spent pretty directly into the local economy. ......................but by far most of that $100 is staying here.
...................and a lot of the people spending money at the local casinos are from out of town.
You want it both ways.
They don't really make the pie bigger is the correct answer. Even when people come in from out of the city, that money is tribe money. May be recirculated, may not. Certainly makes some tribes wealthier but non tribals less wealthy. Show me some big new money development that our recirculated money bought. The hotel? The Hard Rock? Same guys, same money that is trying to bring in new money. Remains to be seen whether they do. At any rate their opening is probably at the expense of existing hotels and restaurants. But what else? So rather than recirculating, its more plausible that its being redistributed.
Certainly its admirable that they provide employment but that employment is race/nationality based and could have been effected in other operations that would have "recirculated" the same money without discriminating in employment. Please, just show me anything more than a neglible net increase in total sales in our community that they have created.
I say that as someone who lived here as an adult before they expanded. Get a phone book from a decade ago and compare with today. Its gruesome. The story that says they tried to open in OKC and met resistance could mean OKC heard that sucking sound. Remington probably wasn't the only operation in fear. Their customers no doubt frequent Bricktown as well.
But whatever. Its all good. In all sincerity, the public wanted gambling and a lottery and they got it.
Whenever they put out health and poverty statistics etc., do they include Native Americans in them? If so, wouldnt having wealthier tribes be a good thing for the over all stats and population of Oklahoma? Plus, though I havent kept specific track, I remember reading stories about the tribes now starting to invest in other industries completely unrelated to gambling (many of which dont just hire indans, and a lot of the "indians" they do hire are really no more indian than I am lol), build roads, expand and build new medical centers, educational projects, donate to different charities, etc. And I am sure as time goes on and they lessen up their investments into building the casinos, and will divert more of that money to other things. It seems to me that this money stays in the state and helps the state at least as much, if not a little more, than spending money at a national chain.
Quote from: Hoss on July 30, 2009, 02:42:34 PM
I'll never go after that doosh Cornett made his comments.
I'm waiting for OKCPulse the Houstonian ;D to chime in.
LOL :D... first, never ever ever ever call me a Houstonian. And second, I think I am worn out on the Tulsa vs. OKC rivalry. We are what we are, Oklahomans. I have noticed lately that, through the accomplishments of each city, OKC and Tulsa will continue to challenge each other by raising the bar in their own cities. As long as the competition stays heated, each city will continue to become better places to live and work.
My wife and I have family in both places and I love visiting both cities each year we go back. Tulsa feels like a second home now, OKC is my original home, and right now I am islanded in Houston. :-\
Quote from: DTowner on July 31, 2009, 09:22:15 AM
Artist nails it - Tulsa is not yet ready for a V2025 Part II. I think that is in large part because there hasn't been any development around the BOK and other downtown devleopment is somewhat spread out and not obvious unless you spend a lot of time downtown. People in OKC supported MAPS II because they saw that MAPS I worked and bought into the idea that it would work again.
The next couple of years are critical - more clear successes and the attraction of private development $ to downtown because of Tulsa's investment need to happen. When it does, and I believe it will, I think a majority of Tulsans will want to keep moving forward (and PlaniTulsa's outcome demonstrates many realize that downtown must continue to be the focal point and a priorty).
I doubt that Tulsa County will successfully initiate another V2025 or 4 to Fix anytime in the near future, if something like that were to pass it would need to be limited to City of Tulsa only.
The schism between Tulsa and the burbs is growing, not just at the government level but also at the citizen level. The failed river tax, jail brouhaha, river bridge, fair grounds anexation, and streets package are good examples of how wide the divide is.
I hate OKC because they treat Tulsa like crap. I used to go there for concerts at the Ford Center but now I just go to the BOK Center or Cains. Why would I go to OKC now? To see the Coyote Ugly or their low ranking NBA team that they won't share with the rest of the state. Hell no.
The facts are these OKC is a cowtown it always had been and always will be. The NBA team was going to be called the Oklahoma City Cowpokes but there mayor said no.