I was walking around near Dilly Deli last night and noticed that the row of buildings east of Dilly Deli and Temple are getting rebuilt. They used to just be side walls with no front but now there is a metal skeleton going onto the front. Any idea what they might be putting in these buildings?
I have no idea but I'm happy to read that.
Is this on 3rd? That may be the new 'green' offices for Tri-Arch Architects.
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2009/20090428_e2triarch0428.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20090428_32_E1_Taylor60072&archive=yes (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20090428_32_E1_Taylor60072&archive=yes)
No, it's not the architects' offices, SXSW. These are the three storefronts that Kitchell ripped up and left for years. The city finally forced the Kitchells to fix the blight to avoid steep penalties and/or having the buildings bulldozed with a lien slapped on the cleared lots.
I am hoping someone puts some more restaurants in there. That whole area is busy and I like having the option to walk next door if the wait is too long at one place. The only problem is when all the places have a wait because there are not enough restaurants.
I noticed this too on our bike ride to Blue Dome diner on Sunday morning...I have hoped someone would come in and expand the options in that district...I would really like to see the expansive "parking lot" between 1st and 2nd and Elgin/Greenwood be turned into a mixed use development (i.e. retail/restaurants/bars on first floor and apartments/condos/office space on floors 2-6) with a parking garage that would have a mix of FREE public/secure private residential parking options to really make this district shine. Who owns THAT chunk of land and why aren't they developing it?!? With the ballpark just on the other side of the tracks this is one prime piece of land...hopefully they develop wisely.
Quote from: jtcrissup on June 25, 2009, 11:59:00 AM
I noticed this too on our bike ride to Blue Dome diner on Sunday morning...I have hoped someone would come in and expand the options in that district...I would really like to see the expansive "parking lot" between 1st and 2nd and Elgin/Greenwood be turned into a mixed use development (i.e. retail/restaurants/bars on first floor and apartments/condos/office space on floors 2-6) with a parking garage that would have a mix of FREE public/secure private residential parking options to really make this district shine. Who owns THAT chunk of land and why aren't they developing it?!? With the ballpark just on the other side of the tracks this is one prime piece of land...hopefully they develop wisely.
I agree, I would love to see a big mixed-use residential development on that site. It definitely would help tie together the Blue Dome district and invigorate more life into the area.
Yeah, if done right the possibilities are endless...small grocer (something like Petty's size with an eating area for the pre-made stuff); a nice liquor/wine store; several mid/small bars with live music playing; a few restaurants all on the ground level. Level 2 could be offices with nice balconies overlooking the street, and Level 3 ~6 could be apartments (or condos if market is right) with a healthy mix of floorplans/price points to encourage a good mix of people. A parking garage in the very CENTER of the block with public access off 1st (no gates in this area...make it free to the public except during special events...the more people that park there for work the better it is for the businesses as the constant foot traffic every day brings people in) and private/gated access off second @ Franklin would add/replenish the existing parking available and would provide those living/working there with a guaranteed spot even during peak events like D-Fest. The building could be "tiered" as you go up so it is not overshadowing the smaller buildings around it too much (and would give more options for outdoor living spaces). Somehow tying in the "blue dome" theme arch/name wise would be cool too.
I walked by this area the other day and it is coming along. The new front looks pretty good and it looks structurally sound now. There appears to be 3 spaces with the middle space being larger. The 2 other spaces have "For Rent" signs. Any ideas what may be going in the middle?
Quote from: jtcrissup on June 25, 2009, 11:59:00 AM
I noticed this too on our bike ride to Blue Dome diner on Sunday morning...I have hoped someone would come in and expand the options in that district...I would really like to see the expansive "parking lot" between 1st and 2nd and Elgin/Greenwood be turned into a mixed use development (i.e. retail/restaurants/bars on first floor and apartments/condos/office space on floors 2-6) with a parking garage that would have a mix of FREE public/secure private residential parking options to really make this district shine. Who owns THAT chunk of land and why aren't they developing it?!? With the ballpark just on the other side of the tracks this is one prime piece of land...hopefully they develop wisely.
If Tulsa could land an Alamo Drafthouse movie theatre that block/parking lot would be a great place for it. Have the main entrance/ticket booth open onto Elgin at 2nd St. with parking in a garage to the east. Getting that block developed as well as the block between the PAC and Blue Dome (perfect for a park/plaza with an excellent skyline view) and the stretch of 1st between Detroit and Greenwood around McNellies (the north side) would go a LONG way in improving the urban connectivity of the Blue Dome district.
That huge parking lot needs to go away...I wonder what our good friends at American Parking think this parcel is worth?
Quote from: carltonplace on September 23, 2009, 09:41:44 AM
That huge parking lot needs to go away...I wonder what our good friends at American Parking think this parcel is worth?
I think that's actually owned by TDA
Quote from: swake on September 23, 2009, 10:00:00 AM
I think that's actually owned by TDA
So it will never be developed?
Quote from: TURobY on September 23, 2009, 10:04:36 AM
So it will never be developed?
No, just means development will be slow.
Those parking lots would be worth less if morans would quit paying $5 to park there on weekend nights when there's always on-street parking a block away.
Slightly off topic:
A while back, Elliott Nelson mentioned that he was thinking about putting in an 8-lane bowling alley to the SOUTH of the Dilly Deli.
Can I just say how much I love this idea! Just big enough to be busy all the time. League bowling on "slow" nights. Open play on weekends and busy nights... Beer all the nights.
Haven't heard when/if it will become a reality, but it's an awesome idea. Perfect for downtown Tulsa.
If they build it, I will bowl.
Quote from: PonderInc on September 23, 2009, 12:52:17 PM
Slightly off topic:
A while back, Elliott Nelson mentioned that he was thinking about putting in an 8-lane bowling alley to the SOUTH of the Dilly Deli.
Can I just say how much I love this idea! Just big enough to be busy all the time. League bowling on "slow" nights. Open play on weekends and busy nights... Beer all the nights.
Haven't heard when/if it will become a reality, but it's an awesome idea. Perfect for downtown Tulsa.
If they build it, I will bowl.
You are freakin' kidding me! I was actually looking into the exact same thing in that location. Unfortunately, the market tanked and lending became a lot more difficult, so I abandoned the idea. I'm sure I still have my research materials somewhere on my computer. I'll see if I can find them and I'll forward them to Elliott.
Rockin' Bowl would be a great addition downtown....they are very expensive finish out. But downtown could use this type of venue!
That would be a hellofalot of fun. I enjoy bowling on a recreational level. Downtown could escape the cliche bowling alley atmosphere, which would enhance it for most in my generation (IMHO).
I'd take out of town friends there to bowl a few games and have a few for sure, in addition to my own entertainment from time to time.
That parking lot is not owned by the TDA. It is managed by American Parking for a private owner.
I thought it was owned by the PAC
Quote from: cannon_fodder on September 23, 2009, 03:07:57 PM
That would be a hellofalot of fun. I enjoy bowling on a recreational level. Downtown could escape the cliche bowling alley atmosphere, which would enhance it for most in my generation (IMHO).
I'd take out of town friends there to bowl a few games and have a few for sure, in addition to my own entertainment from time to time.
Something like Red Pin in Bricktown would be very cool. More of a contemporary restaurant/lounge with bowling. Get something like that built at 3rd & Elgin and an Alamo Drafthouse-like movie theatre at 2nd & Elgin and that's 2 significant gaps filled on what is becoming the main street through Blue Dome, and downtown in general. I see that being reinforced once the ballpark opens and surrounding lots get developed, and as OSU-Tulsa grows.
I love the bowling alley idea and I would go bowl at lunch or eat and watch people bowl. They need to have more infill between Blue Dome and the ballpark. I walked over to the ballpark the other day and it was not very inviting after I got past 1st Street.
A bowling alley downtown would be great. I imagine it could be busy even on weeknights, what with downtown workers playing in leagues.
Lucky Strike Lanes seems to be opening up in downtowns everywhere. There's one in KC, a new one opening in Houston, Denver, etc.
Elliott Nelson is a great, great man. I love how he takes great ideas from other cities/countries and brings them here. So many of our leaders could learn a few things from him by studying what cities much better than us are doing right.
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on September 24, 2009, 08:30:18 AM
I love the bowling alley idea and I would go bowl at lunch or eat and watch people bowl. They need to have more infill between Blue Dome and the ballpark. I walked over to the ballpark the other day and it was not very inviting after I got past 1st Street.
I agree, hopefully they will do some kind of streetscape along Elgin between 1st and Brady and north to OSU. Basically an extension of the streetscape already in place south of 1st.
The buildings to the East of Temple are owned by Steve Kitchell and he is in the process of finishing the front and roofs after pressure from the City. He currently has them listed for sale with NAI Commercial...last I had heard they were asking $650,000 but that was before the construction.
The asphalt lot across the street is majority owned by a private owner, Tom Williams I think. Last time I heard an asking price for this was around $3 million+...Elliot Nelson had looked at creating something called Franklin Square with it but opted out. The land at the East end of that section (about a 1/2 block) is owned by TDA and is part of the Jones Lang LaSalle packages being offered I think.
OK legal eagles, why can't the city raise the taxes on parking lots enough to make them unattractive to investors?
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 25, 2009, 10:26:58 PM
OK legal eagles, why can't the city raise the taxes on parking lots enough to make them unattractive to investors?
Or at least figure out some equitable balance,,, lower taxes on some set of buildings ( perhaps those 50 years plus, ones with housing, just throwing out random ideas) , raise them on parking lots and empty lots, and lower them on parking garages. The more floors of parking and affordable housing you add, the lower the percentage of taxes per sq ft. Some set of tools (not just taxes alone) to encourage increased density and the type of development we want, while preserving older buildings. I hate silly, messy tax codes and such, but in this instance if there is a way to shift things within the IDL it might be worth it.
However, I must say, I do think that downtown has truly turned the corner. It now has enough momentum, current and future projects in the pipeline, to start trucking along at a steady, though slow, pace. If we could compare the downtown of 2005 with 2015,,, over all, we would see an amazingly positive transformation had happened within those 10 years.
Why can't we just put language in the zoning codes that makes surface parking lots inside the IDL illegal without an approved variance?
TW article on Nelson's bowling alley just south of Dilly Deli on Elgin:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=46&articleid=20091213_46_E1_JEllio559136 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=46&articleid=20091213_46_E1_JEllio559136)
Quote from: SXSW on December 14, 2009, 03:30:17 PM
TW article on Nelson's bowling alley just south of Dilly Deli on Elgin:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=46&articleid=20091213_46_E1_JEllio559136 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=46&articleid=20091213_46_E1_JEllio559136)
I'm becoming convinced that Elliott Nelson is becoming a version of Joe Edwards in St. Louis. This is very high praise indeed.
http://www.blueberryhill.com/about/joe/
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 14, 2009, 04:31:52 PM
I'm becoming convinced that Elliott Nelson is becoming a version of Joe Edwards in St. Louis. This is very high praise indeed.
http://www.blueberryhill.com/about/joe/
He needs to be careful about over-expanding an empire too quickly. Kitsch isn't a substitute for quality. I'm still hearing sketchy reviews on Yokozuna and Dilly Delly. I definitely admire his vision(s) and have a serious appreciation for the life he's brought to the Blue Dome area. Simply making the comment that I've seen some really bright enrepreneurs come up with a winning concept or several winning concepts then roll snake eyes a few times and end up flat broke or supporting the losing ventures with the winning ones.
The other thing Elliott needs to be careful about is competing with himself. If the market in that area isn't able to expand to fit his new offerings, he'll just dilute his own customer base. More expense but the same revenue gives bad results.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 14, 2009, 04:35:48 PM
He needs to be careful about over-expanding an empire too quickly. Kitsch isn't a substitute for quality. I'm still hearing sketchy reviews on Yokozuna and Dilly Delly. I definitely admire his vision(s) and have a serious appreciation for the life he's brought to the Blue Dome area. Simply making the comment that I've seen some really bright enrepreneurs come up with a winning concept or several winning concepts then roll snake eyes a few times and end up flat broke or supporting the losing ventures with the winning ones.
Yes but people didn't drive out to 71st at dinnertime because they had a Chili's, they went out there because they have dozens of choices. I have heard that about 1/3rd of the vehicle traffic for large events parks in blue dome. Is it because their restaurant of choice is there or is it because so many places to choose from are there?
"...and El Guapo, and his vision of a hip, rooftop hangout atop the Mexican restaurant hasn't pulled many customers. "
Based on my experiences there, honestly I'm surprised it's lasted this long.
I gave it two tries. Between the overpriced food, the crappy service ( i guess that's what qualifies for "hip") or the limited menu (oh, we're out of that, we're out of that too.) I'd really be hard pressed to give it a third.
If the EG's is indicative of the quality of Yokozuna & Dilly Deli or a bowling alley, I will be sure to avoid them, lest I'm told that we only have 4 balls for 8 lanes of overpriced bowling by an employee with a snooty (I guess I mean "hip" attitude.)
I've had better food and service @ Mexicali and that's a pretty low bar.
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 15, 2009, 08:21:01 AM
Yes but people didn't drive out to 71st at dinnertime because they had a Chili's, they went out there because they have dozens of choices. I have heard that about 1/3rd of the vehicle traffic for large events parks in blue dome. Is it because their restaurant of choice is there or is it because so many places to choose from are there?
So long as it drives more people to the destination and it's not a new place cannibalizing from it's neighbors you are correct. There's a philosophy in the car business that if you built a new Ford dealership out in a suburb, pray that the Chevy and Dodge dealers aren't far behind.
Density of choices should not hurt Blue Dome or Brady at this point. My GF and I went up to the Main and Brady/Cameron area about 10:30 Friday night after driving up Elgin and just about all the downtown hot spots were hopping. It's great to see how vibrant Blue Dome and Brady are on any given weekend night.
Pepe- I've not been underwhelmed or overwhelmed with the service at El Guapos. The food is about like any other craptastic OkieMex. My main gripe about the roof top is I've either been sweating my butt off or chilly when I've been up there. Never seems to be a happy medium.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 15, 2009, 09:45:21 AM
Pepe- I've not been underwhelmed or overwhelmed with the service at El Guapos. The food is about like any other craptastic OkieMex. My main gripe about the roof top is I've either been sweating my butt off or chilly when I've been up there. Never seems to be a happy medium.
I gave up on the food a while ago and some friends and I use it as a place for HH or sunday afternoon drinks to enjoy the weather when it allows. Our service, while slow early on, over the last 4 or 5 months has been great.
I was told when it first opened Elliot planned on spreading out onto the roof next door with the possibility of live bands up there but I guess that has changed.
That's too bad, if that roof was opened up and gave more view it'd be a great spot.
I think the critical mass of half a dozen new retaurants in the area would become a magnet.
I would like to see a real hamburger place, a BBQ place, a Greek/Meditarranian place, a chicken restaurant, another breakfast place and a steak restaurant all pop up in the Blue Dome.
Quote from: sgrizzle on December 15, 2009, 08:21:01 AM
Yes but people didn't drive out to 71st at dinnertime because they had a Chili's, they went out there because they have dozens of choices. I have heard that about 1/3rd of the vehicle traffic for large events parks in blue dome. Is it because their restaurant of choice is there or is it because so many places to choose from are there?
It may also have something to do with the $10 parking fee for the closer in parking lots. I was in the area last Friday for another event. Most of the lots were $5 but I saw at least one for $10. I found a spot on the street.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 15, 2009, 11:25:48 AM
I think the critical mass of half a dozen new retaurants in the area would become a magnet.
I would like to see a real hamburger place, a BBQ place, a Greek/Meditarranian place, a chicken restaurant, another breakfast place and a steak restaurant all pop up in the Blue Dome.
That, a movie theater and a microbrewery would make Blue Dome quite the destination with the new ballpark just to the north.
Quote from: PepePeru on December 15, 2009, 09:32:53 AM
Based on my experiences there, honestly I'm surprised it's lasted this long.
I gave it two tries. Between the overpriced food, the crappy service ( i guess that's what qualifies for "hip") or the limited menu (oh, we're out of that, we're out of that too.) I'd really be hard pressed to give it a third.
If the EG's is indicative of the quality of Yokozuna & Dilly Deli or a bowling alley, I will be sure to avoid them, lest I'm told that we only have 4 balls for 8 lanes of overpriced bowling by an employee with a snooty (I guess I mean "hip" attitude.)
I've had better food and service @ Mexicali and that's a pretty low bar.
I found that remark... "...and El Guapo, and his vision of a hip, rooftop hangout atop the Mexican restaurant hasn't pulled many customers. " rather odd actually. I thought it was a typo or something. I prefer sitting at the rooftop (not this time of year mind you lol) and Just about every time I have tried to eat there its been full with long waits or I would pull my old trick of avoiding the wait by "sitting at the bar". Have never had any problems with service or not having food items either.
Quote from: TheArtist on December 15, 2009, 02:03:43 PM
Have never had any problems with service or not having food items either.
I've haven't had any problems there recently, and in fact, just ate there on Sunday. The waiter was attentive, the food was delicious (got a chimichanga), and was well within reasonable price range. I will admit however, just as with Dilly Deli and Yokozuna, it did seem to have some "starting out" problems, such as wait staff and menu tweaks. But I haven't seen those problems in quite a while. Maybe you and I are just lucky William?
I've eaten at Yokozuna twice now and it's been very good both times.
I've eaten at El Gupo probably 50 times, good enough for a cross sampling. While I'd say "bad experiences" make up only about 15% I would say "okay experiences" make up 75%. Sad to say the last time I had particularly good service and good food was in february. They have made a lot of menu choices and as far as I can tell, all of them were for the worse. The rooftop stays fairly busy but filling roughly 25% of your tables is rarely considered a glaring success.
I still keep going there because you rarely have to wait for a table and the competition in downtown is still pretty thin, especially for mexican food.
My advice for El Guapo: Become the state's premier location for northern New Mexico cuisine.
I have never found a real green chile burrito anywhere in Tulsa, and there's no where to get a bowl of chile (not chili, but chile...the kind where they ask "red or green?" after you place your order).
Enough Tulsans travel regularly through New Mexico, southern Colorado, and Arizona to have an appreciation for "New Mexian" food. And I've spoken to many folks, who, like me, are blase about Tex-Mex or so-called "authentic Mexican."
Go find a chef from Sante Fe, Albuquerque, Taos...SOMEWHERE in northern NM...and then find a supplier of fresh roasted Hatch green chiles. It would fill a gaping void in the Tulsa restaurant market. It would fill a niche, and it would fill the tables at El Guapo's. (It never hurts that chiles seems to be mildly addictive!)
Quote from: PonderInc on December 16, 2009, 12:54:14 PM
My advice for El Guapo: Become the state's premier location for northern New Mexico cuisine.
I have never found a real green chile burrito anywhere in Tulsa, and there's no where to get a bowl of chile (not chili, but chile...the kind where they ask "red or green?" after you place your order).
Enough Tulsans travel regularly through New Mexico, southern Colorado, and Arizona to have an appreciation for "New Mexian" food. And I've spoken to many folks, who, like me, are blase about Tex-Mex or so-called "authentic Mexican."
Go find a chef from Sante Fe, Albuquerque, Taos...SOMEWHERE in northern NM...and then find a supplier of fresh roasted Hatch green chiles. It would fill a gaping void in the Tulsa restaurant market. It would fill a niche, and it would fill the tables at El Guapo's. (It never hurts that chiles seems to be mildly addictive!)
I would go there, although I would personally prefer to substitute something in place of the hominy.
What would be nice to have in the area next is some shopping. Then it would be more of a destination location. Yes a small theater/dinner theater would be fantastic as well.
Couple of small things that would make a positive difference in the area that Elliot could do would be to have some outdoor/sidewalk seating at Mc Nellies and make the side area next to Dili Delli more visible. Perhaps an artsy, decorative fence so that its still somewhat secluded but you can readily see that there are people in there eating and playing games. Both of those would add a more lively feeling to the area, and add to that "people watching" factor. I think one of the big negatives for Dili Delli was how you can not see inside. It always looks dead from the outside and a lot of people going through there never gave it a second glance. Even a "faux" set of table and chairs with perhaps umbrellas out front by the door would have been just the cue to say "Hey! we are a restaurant and we are open!" Not " Hmmm wonder whats in there? and are they open? " No need to do that for Mc Nellies for instance, its a different look and dynamic. You cant always go by some book of rules, or what you have done before,,, feeling something out and psychology "the art of it" is very important. Dilli Delli on that corner needed to be open and inviting, not closed off behind dark reflective windows and a tall, privacy fence. I am willing to bet that he would have doubled or tripled his business there by making those changes.
Quote from: PonderInc on December 16, 2009, 12:54:14 PM
My advice for El Guapo: Become the state's premier location for northern New Mexico cuisine.
I have never found a real green chile burrito anywhere in Tulsa, and there's no where to get a bowl of chile (not chili, but chile...the kind where they ask "red or green?" after you place your order).
Enough Tulsans travel regularly through New Mexico, southern Colorado, and Arizona to have an appreciation for "New Mexian" food. And I've spoken to many folks, who, like me, are blase about Tex-Mex or so-called "authentic Mexican."
Go find a chef from Sante Fe, Albuquerque, Taos...SOMEWHERE in northern NM...and then find a supplier of fresh roasted Hatch green chiles. It would fill a gaping void in the Tulsa restaurant market. It would fill a niche, and it would fill the tables at El Guapo's. (It never hurts that chiles seems to be mildly addictive!)
I got a very good education in Hatch chiles this weekend. A friend who is very into NM cuisine brought me green chile stew, that didn't suck at all.
I went to El Guapo's last night and it was packed. I think they have some of the biggest margaritas in town. Service was good. McNellies is my favorite of Elliott's creations and I hope he continues to expand it. Haven't been to Yokozuna yet bet all my friends say it is good. I won't do Dilly Deli because I don't like sandwich places. There are way too many sandwich places downtown. I would definately go to his bowling alley for lunch and HH after work. I am still curious what will go in east of Dilly Deli and that bar without a name on it (I think it is called Temple). There are those 3 new spaces but last I checked they were still empty.
I am happy for all the developments downtown- more restaurants, bars, entertainment, and residential. This needs to continue but there also needs to be more green spaces and shopping downtown but that is another topic.
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on December 16, 2009, 02:11:22 PM
I won't do Dilly Deli because I don't like sandwich places. There are way too many sandwich places downtown.
"enjoy every sandwich" Warren Zevon (on death)
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on December 16, 2009, 02:11:22 PM
I went to El Guapo's last night and it was packed. I think they have some of the biggest margaritas in town. Service was good. McNellies is my favorite of Elliott's creations and I hope he continues to expand it. Haven't been to Yokozuna yet bet all my friends say it is good. I won't do Dilly Deli because I don't like sandwich places. There are way too many sandwich places downtown. I would definately go to his bowling alley for lunch and HH after work. I am still curious what will go in east of Dilly Deli and that bar without a name on it (I think it is called Temple). There are those 3 new spaces but last I checked they were still empty.
I am happy for all the developments downtown- more restaurants, bars, entertainment, and residential. This needs to continue but there also needs to be more green spaces and shopping downtown but that is another topic.
Anyone know who owns that piece of vacant land right at the corner of 1st & Elgin next to McNellies? That would be a natural space for a McNellies expansion, maybe a brewpub or coffee shop concept? That is another thing the Blue Dome lacks, a good coffee shop..
Hi
This thread points directly to what the PlaniTulsa folks are proposing. Mixed Use residential / business in downtown. Just needs development interests to take note. A proactive measure would be to send this thread to the planners, the city council, the Development lobbies, etc. Remember the public hearings begin in January for the new comp plan!
Happy Holidays.
Liz Wright
Quote from: SXSW on December 16, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Anyone know who owns that piece of vacant land right at the corner of 1st & Elgin next to McNellies? That would be a natural space for a McNellies expansion, maybe a brewpub or coffee shop concept? That is another thing the Blue Dome lacks, a good coffee shop..
http://bit.ly/5MQThS
I was going to ask the same thing. It would also be a great place for some outdoor seating or a little music venue that could be tied into McNellie's. Kinda like Stubb's BBQ in Austin.
The answer to the original question: Lee Bicycles.
They are relocating from Brookside.
They bought Kitchell's building on 2nd and Frankfort. I understand the transaction just took place but I don't know timelines or details of how super cool the shop will be.
Anyone know Adam the owner?
Quote from: Nik on December 17, 2009, 09:11:53 AM
http://bit.ly/5MQThS
I was going to ask the same thing. It would also be a great place for some outdoor seating or a little music venue that could be tied into McNellie's. Kinda like Stubb's BBQ in Austin.
That would be fantastic.
Quote from: OurTulsa on December 17, 2009, 10:10:32 AM
The answer to the original question: Lee Bicycles.
They are relocating from Brookside.
They bought Kitchell's building on 2nd and Frankfort. I understand the transaction just took place but I don't know timelines or details of how super cool the shop will be.
Anyone know Adam the owner?
Word around the campfire is something similar to Mellow Johnny's in Austin, we've covered this on another thread or earlier on this one:
http://www.mellowjohnnys.com/theshop.php
Quote from: SXSW on December 16, 2009, 03:10:13 PM
Anyone know who owns that piece of vacant land right at the corner of 1st & Elgin next to McNellies? That would be a natural space for a McNellies expansion, maybe a brewpub or coffee shop concept? That is another thing the Blue Dome lacks, a good coffee shop..
According to the County Assessor's records, this property is owned by: RACZKOWSKI, WILLIAM J AND JOAN E of Tulsa.
Quote from: PonderInc on December 17, 2009, 10:49:59 AM
According to the County Assessor's records, this property is owned by: RACZKOWSKI, WILLIAM J AND JOAN E of Tulsa.
I've been told their asking price is a tad steep.
Quote from: Townsend on December 17, 2009, 12:32:07 PM
I've been told their asking price is a tad steep.
Maybe that's why Elliot has been opening up so many new venues, to make enough $$$ to buy this piece of land for a McNellies expansion. ;) That and the bricked up warehouse across Elgin on 1st really drag that area down, hopefully something can be done with both buildings soon. If I had more money I would buy the warehouse and turn it into a microbrewery. If only Marshall's could operate a brewery...
Quote from: SXSW on December 17, 2009, 03:24:56 PM
Maybe that's why Elliot has been opening up so many new venues, to make enough $$$ to buy this piece of land for a McNellies expansion. ;) That and the bricked up warehouse across Elgin on 1st really drag that area down, hopefully something can be done with both buildings soon. If I had more money I would buy the warehouse and turn it into a microbrewery. If only Marshall's could operate a brewery...
Forgive my ignorance, but what would keep Marshall's from operating a brewery? Is there some sort of ceiling on beer production?
On a related note, it's high time for the next governor or legislature to take a hard look at this state's archaic alcohol laws. Sure, other states have them, too, but it's no excuse to keep stupid regulations on the book "just because."
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 17, 2009, 03:33:09 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but what would keep Marshall's from operating a brewery? Is there some sort of ceiling on beer production?
On a related note, it's high time for the next governor or legislature to take a hard look at this state's archaic alcohol laws. Sure, other states have them, too, but it's no excuse to keep stupid regulations on the book "just because."
Tulsa has had two brew pubs in the past. One was way over indebted and poorly managed, the other I'm still not sure why it failed as a couple of very good restarauteurs partnered up on it.
Far as I know there is no ceiling on production. Eric told me one time why he was not electing to go that route and I honestly cannot now remember the reason why. (We must have been drinking beer at the time). I think it may have had to do with the cost and perhaps he could not package and distribute the beer if it was a brew pub. Maybe he's lurking and will chime in.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 17, 2009, 03:40:08 PM
Tulsa has had two brew pubs in the past. One was way over indebted and poorly managed, the other I'm still not sure why it failed as a couple of very good restarauteurs partnered up on it.
Far as I know there is no ceiling on production. Eric told me one time why he was not electing to go that route and I honestly cannot now remember the reason why. (We must have been drinking beer at the time). I think it may have had to do with the cost and perhaps he could not package and distribute the beer if it was a brew pub. Maybe he's lurking and will chime in.
Yes I believe there is some sort of restriction. I'm sure someone will chime in who knows more about it than I do. I think we all agree a Marshall's brewery/brewpub at 1st & Elgin across from an expanded McNellies would be AWESOME.
given the close partnership between McNellie's and Marshall's, I wouldn't expect Eric to open a brewpub right across the street from McNellie's even if he decided to go that route.
Quote from: Nik on December 17, 2009, 04:28:30 PM
given the close partnership between McNellie's and Marshall's, I wouldn't expect Eric to open a brewpub right across the street from McNellie's even if he decided to go that route.
It could see such a scenario if he partnered with Elliott on it.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 17, 2009, 03:40:08 PM
Tulsa has had two brew pubs in the past.
What were they?
Quote from: rwarn17588 on December 17, 2009, 04:43:39 PM
What were they?
Cherry Street Brewery was one. Where Snail is now.
The other was on Memorial. Can't think of the name.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 17, 2009, 03:40:08 PM
Tulsa has had two brew pubs in the past. One was way over indebted and poorly managed, the other I'm still not sure why it failed as a couple of very good restarauteurs partnered up on it.
Far as I know there is no ceiling on production. Eric told me one time why he was not electing to go that route and I honestly cannot now remember the reason why. (We must have been drinking beer at the time). I think it may have had to do with the cost and perhaps he could not package and distribute the beer if it was a brew pub. Maybe he's lurking and will chime in.
I believe I remember Eric saying he wanted to be in the brewing business but not necessarily the restaurant business, perhaps among other things.
Quote from: Townsend on December 17, 2009, 05:11:24 PM
Cherry Street Brewery was one. Where Snail is now.
The other was on Memorial. Can't think of the name.
Tulsa Brewing Company
Quote from: Dana431 on December 17, 2009, 06:13:03 PM
Tulsa Brewing Company
Where Lanna Thai is now approximately 73rd & Memorial on the east side of the road.
That's also been an Interurban, and plenty of other less memorable restaurants over the years. I think the building has been there about 30 years now.
Rwarn- Cherry St. Brewery had an elaborate marketing scheme which involved an IPO of stock. The idea was to raise money, but the idea was also by selling 1 million shares at $5 each (I think that was the formula, sheesh that's been about 18 years or so back now) they would create a base of "owners" who would take pride in "their" brewery and bring their friends and assciates in for a beer and meal. As another friend related at the time: "Yeah, you pick up a few thousand owners but you also pick up a few thousand potential pains in the donkey."
This was all integrated into the renovation of Lincoln Elementary into Lincoln Plaza. I was in the middle of all that at the time as I was still in the ad business, but my memory of the development of the overall center and how much the owner/developer of the brewery, Tom Ackley, was involved has faded.
They did everything first class, paid a brew meister a pretty good chunk to locate here, etc. I can't rembember how long it lasted, maybe 18 to 24 months but they had problems from the start, most notably with their share-holders who were pissed off about snooty service, crappy food, and mediocre beer, but they had $30,000 pieces of craptastic abstract art on the walls.
Whoops, I guess it lasted longer than I thought or perhaps they opened later than 1991, might have been '92 or '93. I found an article dated June of 1996 announcing the sale of the brewing equipment to a California brew pub for $150K. I suspect that was a good deal less than it was bought for originally. There again if they opened late '93 and went BK in late '95 this might fit the timeframe. What's interesting is it appears it was a Ch. 11 reorganization, but they liquidated it. This is the central building where Jason's Deli and Gray Snail are now. Those spaces combined made up the brew pub.
As I recall, great location, great building, great concept, but shitty management seems to have been the major issue. The shareholders may have even deposed Ackley at one point.
"Jul. 26--What began as a shining hope for investors and patrons wanting a cold one brewed in midtown Tulsa is going west.
The brewing equipment from the Cherry Street Brewery has been sold to a California company for use in a microbrewery.
Workers loaded the stainless steel tanks -- up to 19 feet tall -- and other brewing equipment Thursday for its trip west. The U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma approved the $150,000 sale as part of the Chapter 11 reorganization by Cherry Street Brewery.
There also will be an auction Wednesday to sell other equipment from the restaurant. Mr. Ed's will run the auction, which will start on site ... "
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-18532885.html
Last I knew Tom Ackley had taken his act to Costa Rica where he's clear cut a beautiful mountain top and built a bed and breakfast.
http://vistavalverde.com/index.htm
I think you'll all be excited to see what's coming in the Blue Dome District in the months to come. In addition to Elliot's bowling alley, we're adding a new retro themed arcade pub to the south of Joe Momma's called "The Max Retropub" (shooting for an April opening. We have the permit.) Even before the pub, a new retail spot called Boomtown Tees will be between Joe Momma's and The Max and a new BBQ place called "Back Alley Blues and BBQ" will be in the back end of the space and will be accessed from the alley (Memphis style). Next up for us...an Alamo Draught House style theater.
Tom and Angie Green (of DFest fame) have opened ENSO, which is a nice new lounge type place at 1st and Detroit. They plan to open The IDL Ballroom (a large music venue which was formerly The Blank Slate) and a dance club called The Electric Circus (formerly Exit 6C). These are well done and are a welcome addition to the entertainment scene in the district.
Lee's is opening East of Dilly Deli and the place formerly known as Templ will/has reopen(ed) as "The Candy Bar." There are additional retail spaces next to Lee's, some of which at least have prospective tenants.
Elliot's bowling alley is on the way and he's opening another bar to the south of that in the space that used to house the lock and key shop.
Don't forget about Sager's loft project. Someday we'll have lofts in the district.
Also....we've got some pretty cool parties and festivals: St. Patrick's Day, Blue Dome Festival, Tulsa Tough, DFest, and our new addition: Tulsa's biggest Mardi Gras party and parade (coming this year).
There are still some great spots in the area and infill opportunities abound. I agree that the red building north of El Guapo's needs to be developed, but the word on the street is that its owners have no intentions of selling or developing. There's a similar story about the lot to the west of McNellie's. There are some great buildings currently being used for other things and maybe someday their use will change to something more attractional.
The Blue Dome Association's members are working hard to combine our resources to promote and improve our neighborhood. I'm optimistic that 2010 will be the best year ever in the Blue Dome District and that our continued growth will prove what can happen when motivated entrepreneurs take some chances.
Keep coming down and supporting Blue Dome Restaurants and venues. We've got a great concentration of local restaurants and bars and we're on our way to being Tulsa's most notable entertainment district.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 17, 2009, 09:51:18 PM
Where Lanna Thai is now approximately 73rd & Memorial on the east side of the road.
That's also been an Interurban, and plenty of other less memorable restaurants over the years. I think the building has been there about 30 years now.
Rwarn- Cherry St. Brewery had an elaborate marketing scheme which involved an IPO of stock. The idea was to raise money, but the idea was also by selling 1 million shares at $5 each (I think that was the formula, sheesh that's been about 18 years or so back now) they would create a base of "owners" who would take pride in "their" brewery and bring their friends and assciates in for a beer and meal. As another friend related at the time: "Yeah, you pick up a few thousand owners but you also pick up a few thousand potential pains in the donkey."
This was all integrated into the renovation of Lincoln Elementary into Lincoln Plaza. I was in the middle of all that at the time as I was still in the ad business, but my memory of the development of the overall center and how much the owner/developer of the brewery, Tom Ackley, was involved has faded.
They did everything first class, paid a brew meister a pretty good chunk to locate here, etc. I can't rembember how long it lasted, maybe 18 to 24 months but they had problems from the start, most notably with their share-holders who were pissed off about snooty service, crappy food, and mediocre beer, but they had $30,000 pieces of craptastic abstract art on the walls.
Whoops, I guess it lasted longer than I thought or perhaps they opened later than 1991, might have been '92 or '93. I found an article dated June of 1996 announcing the sale of the brewing equipment to a California brew pub for $150K. I suspect that was a good deal less than it was bought for originally. There again if they opened late '93 and went BK in late '95 this might fit the timeframe. What's interesting is it appears it was a Ch. 11 reorganization, but they liquidated it. This is the central building where Jason's Deli and Gray Snail are now. Those spaces combined made up the brew pub.
As I recall, great location, great building, great concept, but shitty management seems to have been the major issue. The shareholders may have even deposed Ackley at one point.
"Jul. 26--What began as a shining hope for investors and patrons wanting a cold one brewed in midtown Tulsa is going west.
The brewing equipment from the Cherry Street Brewery has been sold to a California company for use in a microbrewery.
Workers loaded the stainless steel tanks -- up to 19 feet tall -- and other brewing equipment Thursday for its trip west. The U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma approved the $150,000 sale as part of the Chapter 11 reorganization by Cherry Street Brewery.
There also will be an auction Wednesday to sell other equipment from the restaurant. Mr. Ed's will run the auction, which will start on site ... "
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-18532885.html
Last I knew Tom Ackley had taken his act to Costa Rica where he's clear cut a beautiful mountain top and built a bed and breakfast.
http://vistavalverde.com/index.htm
Thanks for the information. I was trolling for information because I was wondering whether the lack of a microbrewery in town when I moved here was simply because previous ones weren't managed well or that the evangelicals essentially shut them down in some insidious way.
To be perfectly honest, I want Marshall's to stick around a long time because I really like his product, and wanted to better gauge his odds at long-term liability. If he fails, it's not going to be because of his beer.
I don't think we need to worry about Marshall's failing. I think he's selling all the beer he can make right now.
There's two brew pubs in OKC I'm aware of, Bricktown and Belle Isle in 50 Penn Place. I've eaten at Brick Town and Had Belle Isle's wheat offering at our big regatta in OKC the last two years. Pretty good brew.
I've had one of the Coop (OKC) beers, I can't remember which now, it was a good beer
http://www.coopaleworks.com/
Hmm doing a Google search, there's also two BJ's Brewhouse restaurants, one at 2425 W. Memorial and another in Norman. This appears to be a chain or franchise. I'd not heard of it.
There's also Coach's in OKC Bricktown and Norman.
So that's six brew pubs and one brewery by my count in OKC, and one brewery for Tulsa.
There are no local ordinances keeping anyone from opening one in Tulsa, it's just the cost of building one adds a ton onto the cost (lowest estimates I've seen for a low-production brewery is about $1mm) of a restaurant. You would think someone would have stepped up a long time ago and done this again, but apparently no one is interested.
Add in Choc and you've got three micro-breweries and six brew pubs in Oklahoma. Not bad for a state with backwardsass liquor laws, but it could always be better.
Quote from: Townsend on December 17, 2009, 05:11:24 pm
Cherry Street Brewery was one. Where Snail is now.
The other was on Memorial. Can't think of the name.
Quote from: Dana431 on December 17, 2009, 06:13:03 PM
Tulsa Brewing Company
When it originally opened in 1983 or 1984 it was Flakey Jake's, very similar to Fuddrucker's which also opened in the same time frame on 31st east of 169. I seem to remember hearing, and I could bbe wrong, but Fuddrucker's closed after a person who was under 18 was injured in an accident in the kitchen using a meat slicer. Personaly I think at the time it was the fact they were over priced for the economy of Tulsa in the early 80's.
I won't name names, but, what I have heard about the two brewpubs was this:
One of the Brewpubs was part owned by the property owner and the restaurant was placed heavily into debt on the buildout of the facility, the brewpub went under due the load placed on that business by the debt and the property owner took possession, free and clear, of the results of the buildout. If that wasn't the original plan, it turned out to be a very nice deal for the owner.
Brewpub two, one of the partners (the managing one) had another unrelated failing business and started to pay the bills of his failing business out of the brewpub, the other owners found out and were pissed, but never found a good way to unwind the business before the infighting killed it due to neglect.
The restrictions were that a Brewpub can't brew above 3.2% and can't sell offsite to retail customers, the latter may have since changed.
Quote from: dbacks fan on December 18, 2009, 08:56:49 AM
Quote from: Townsend on December 17, 2009, 05:11:24 pm
Cherry Street Brewery was one. Where Snail is now.
The other was on Memorial. Can't think of the name.
When it originally opened in 1983 or 1984 it was Flakey Jake's, very similar to Fuddrucker's which also opened in the same time frame on 31st east of 169. I seem to remember hearing, and I could bbe wrong, but Fuddrucker's closed after a person who was under 18 was injured in an accident in the kitchen using a meat slicer. Personaly I think at the time it was the fact they were over priced for the economy of Tulsa in the early 80's.
Wasn't the Fuddruckers where the Mazzios is now? I seem to remember it that way...just west of the Wal-Mart Neighborhood market.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on December 17, 2009, 10:23:14 PM
I think you'll all be excited to see what's coming in the Blue Dome District in the months to come.
I'm curious why this isn't shouted from the rooftops.
I can understand if it needs to be kept quiet in case someone else wants to move in on a project but I'd think all the business owners would want all the new things to be known ahead of time just to have the word out.
That information could breed more excitement which might bring more development faster.
Am I wrong? I don't own a business so I could be way off.
Quote from: Townsend on December 18, 2009, 10:18:30 AM
I'm curious why this isn't shouted from the rooftops.
I can understand if it needs to be kept quiet in case someone else wants to move in on a project but I'd think all the business owners would want all the new things to be known ahead of time just to have the word out.
That information could breed more excitement which might bring more development faster.
Am I wrong? I don't own a business so I could be way off.
Yeah, that post by Blake deserves its own thread! Very exciting!
Hopefully all these breweries will allow us to up our pathetic standing in terms of beer.
(http://img24.yfrog.com/img24/7410/2008gabfmedalmapfinal.jpg)
Quote from: Hoss on December 18, 2009, 10:13:42 AM
Wasn't the Fuddruckers where the Mazzios is now? I seem to remember it that way...just west of the Wal-Mart Neighborhood market.
Yes thats the location. I had to go look at Google Streets to make sure, I seem to remember it was vacant for some time before Mazzio's took it over.
Quote from: TheTed on December 18, 2009, 11:15:06 AM
Hopefully all these breweries will allow us to up our pathetic standing in terms of beer.
YEAH!!! West Virginia can choke on our dust, man.
Quote from: Townsend on December 18, 2009, 11:43:30 AM
YEAH!!! West Virginia can choke on our dust, man.
Once again I insert a comment about our arcane liquor/beer laws in this state.
Quote from: Nik on December 18, 2009, 10:51:16 AM
Yeah, that post by Blake deserves its own thread! Very exciting!
Yeah. He answered my questions about east of Dilly Deli and went way beyond that. Thanks Blake.
It is too bad nothing can be done with that building accross from El Guapo's. It would make a good nightclub. I wish Tulsa had something like OKC's Citywalk.
I am excited to hear about the Mardi Gras events.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 18, 2009, 08:44:15 AM
I don't think we need to worry about Marshall's failing. I think he's selling all the beer he can make right now.
There's two brew pubs in OKC I'm aware of, Bricktown and Belle Isle in 50 Penn Place. I've eaten at Brick Town and Had Belle Isle's wheat offering at our big regatta in OKC the last two years. Pretty good brew.
I've had one of the Coop (OKC) beers, I can't remember which now, it was a good beer
http://www.coopaleworks.com/
Hmm doing a Google search, there's also two BJ's Brewhouse restaurants, one at 2425 W. Memorial and another in Norman. This appears to be a chain or franchise. I'd not heard of it.
There's also Coach's in OKC Bricktown and Norman.
So that's six brew pubs and one brewery by my count in OKC, and one brewery for Tulsa.
There are no local ordinances keeping anyone from opening one in Tulsa, it's just the cost of building one adds a ton onto the cost (lowest estimates I've seen for a low-production brewery is about $1mm) of a restaurant. You would think someone would have stepped up a long time ago and done this again, but apparently no one is interested.
Add in Choc and you've got three micro-breweries and six brew pubs in Oklahoma. Not bad for a state with backwardsass liquor laws, but it could always be better.
Yes BJ's is a national chain with locations in north OKC on Memorial and Norman by I-35. I wouldn't be surprised to see a BJ's in the 71st & Memorial area or out by Tulsa Hills, it's nothing special and the beer is OK. Coach's in Norman has good beer though and you can get $2 pints of it at The Library on Boyd during happy hour.
And Utah's liquor laws are even more restrictive than Oklahoma's and they have a much larger microbrewery presence than we do.
Also, that pisses me off that the owners of the old warehouse and vacant lot at 1st & Elgin aren't interested in selling. I really think that warehouse would make an awesome brewpub, remove the brick from the arched windows and add some larger windows to show off the brewing equipment; maybe something like what Wallace Engineering did to their building on Brady with a curtain wall system on one side of the building. Lots of potential with that warehouse, and even adjacent parking until that lot gets developed and then parking could be on the north side along the RR tracks. Last time I was in Omaha I went to a brewpub in their downtown Old Market district (very similar to Bricktown) called Upstream Brewing Co. It was a fantastic place in a renovated warehouse similar to the one at 1st & Elgin with great beer and good food as well. I think the success of any brewpub downtown will hinge on not only having great beer, which won't be a problem if it's Marshall's, but also creating a good restaurant that draws in people, including families, from the suburbs. But then after 10-11 it becomes a solid brewpub like any other bar in downtown.
(http://www.aypc.com/_images/images/imagegallery_generalay_hoverlarge/image_hoverlg_upstreambrew.jpg)
If any of you are friends with Lee's Bicycles on Facebook, they posted a :51 second video on their FB page regarding their new space at 2nd & Frankfurt. It's not on Youtube or I'd re-post. Just an empty shell now, they are saying it'll look "like Marilyn Monroe" when they are done.
Go Adam!
Quote from: Conan71 on December 18, 2009, 08:44:15 AM
I don't think we need to worry about Marshall's failing. I think he's selling all the beer he can make right now.
There's two brew pubs in OKC I'm aware of, Bricktown and Belle Isle in 50 Penn Place. I've eaten at Brick Town and Had Belle Isle's wheat offering at our big regatta in OKC the last two years. Pretty good brew.
I've had one of the Coop (OKC) beers, I can't remember which now, it was a good beer
http://www.coopaleworks.com/
Hmm doing a Google search, there's also two BJ's Brewhouse restaurants, one at 2425 W. Memorial and another in Norman. This appears to be a chain or franchise. I'd not heard of it.
There's also Coach's in OKC Bricktown and Norman.
So that's six brew pubs and one brewery by my count in OKC, and one brewery for Tulsa.
There are no local ordinances keeping anyone from opening one in Tulsa, it's just the cost of building one adds a ton onto the cost (lowest estimates I've seen for a low-production brewery is about $1mm) of a restaurant. You would think someone would have stepped up a long time ago and done this again, but apparently no one is interested.
Add in Choc and you've got three micro-breweries and six brew pubs in Oklahoma. Not bad for a state with backwardsass liquor laws, but it could always be better.
Two clarifications- First, BJ's is not a brewpub. It's a highway food chain that creates its own beer (out of state) and ships it to the restaurants. It would be like Chili's having its own beer labels. Second, only the Coach's in Norman is a brewpub. They make their beer down there and truck it to OKC. So, unfortunately, the brewpub count goes down by half. Although Coach's does send beer to several bars around the OKC metro and used to ship to their former location in Tulsa, so maybe they count as both a brewpub and microbrewery . . . ?