Just noticed the other day that the For Lease sign is down..saw some activity over there as well..any idea's or rumors of anything?
For $4500 a month, I can't believe anyone would rent it. I've been wondering about the service station finally closing as well. Is TU starting to spread to the south? Just pure speculation on my part.
I haven't heard anything about TU buying up any additional property.
I sort of think down the road, they should buy up some land and tailor it towards a more uniform look, maybe a mini-Campus Corner.
$4,500 for that spot is obscene.
$4500 a month ?!?!? Thats seems insane. I wonder if thats more than most of the bars and clubs downtown??
$4500 rent values that property at $500,000+ (mortgage payment on $725,000 for 30 years at 7% is about $4500, so throw in some maintenance, some furnishings and add on some profit). My guess is it is assessed around $250,000. And the owner just can't figure out why businesses keep failing there.
[edit]typo[/edit]
Quote from: cannon_fodder on May 13, 2009, 08:26:04 AM
$4500 rent values that property at $500,000+ (mortgage payment on $725,000 for 30 years at 7% is about 500)$. My guess is it is assessed around $250,000. And the owner just can't figure out why businesses keep failing there.
According to the owners of The Collective, the owner of the property is a total pompous donkey. One of two things is going on, either he's trying to get lucky and get a business to survive in the building for a year with a demonstrated rent of $4500 per month so he can sell the property to some dumbass investor from out of state, or he thinks TU is going to hand him a check any day now for $500K and wants to use the high rent as a deterrent to signing a long-term lease. Or a third possibility is the guy smokes a lot of crack.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 13, 2009, 08:50:15 AM
According to the owners of The Collective, the owner of the property is a total pompous donkey. One of two things is going on, either he's trying to get lucky and get a business to survive in the building for a year with a demonstrated rent of $4500 per month so he can sell the property to some dumbass investor from out of state, or he thinks TU is going to hand him a check any day now for $500K and wants to use the high rent as a deterrent to signing a long-term lease. Or a third possibility is the guy smokes a lot of crack.
Sad, sad, sad. :(
I would probably say crack. But, then again, I always go with crack.
A few things...
Abdul is the guy's name that owns the property. The space is roughly 3000 square feet and is fully furnished, including equipment. His attitude is that it's turn-key. It's understandable that a fully furnished and decorated space would be higher rent as it is sparing the business owner the typical costs of build-out, decoration, and furnishing of the space. The package isn't as bad as you might think as presented to an optimistic entrepreneur who happens to be staring 250K of build-out and equipment/furniture purchases in the face. Furthermore, it is across the street from a college campus, which is typically not a bad thing. His pitch is that you're paying for location, tables, chairs, booths, TVs, kitchen equipment, bar, and fully built out space.
That being said...
The location is hardly different than being on Cherry Street as it relates to TU students as they rarely walk that far...so a car trip is a car trip, so its proximity is hardly worth the higher rent. The furnishings inside the space are a mish mash of all of the "reclaimed property" the last several occupiers have left behind....most of them some sort of sports bar, so unless you have a plan for making the space look eclectic and pieced together, there's no real value in all the equipment. The Collective did a nice job of creating a comfortable coffee shop feel using sports bar leftovers, but were on the hook to maintain and repair every item in the building. The rent was part of it, but a very lop-sided lease was also hard to deal with for them.
The place used to work as The Hardwood. There was a time when it was jamming all the time, mostly with TU students. During TU football games, especially when they shut down 11th street, that bar was reportedly selling 20K+ on a Saturday afternoon (which is really good).
If it was that again....$4,500 wouldn't seem that bad. Sadly, the only type of place that's going to do that is a college themed bar, not a coffee/sandwich/bar....which sucks because the Collective was awesome.
I pay $4500 at Joe Momma's and that was for an empty shell of a space that I had to build out myself.
I just don't think it's going to return to its former glory as The Hardwood. The stigma surrounding the space is not good and a whole new generation of TU students have arrived. A restaurant/bar may be able to justify that rent, but only if they come in and do a make-over on the space and have a name people have heard of.
I also don't know that it's right to quote the owners of the collective regarding their opinion of the building's owner as they may be in the middle of legal dealings at this point. I'd strike the comments out of respect for them.
My hope is that Rusty gets the chance to give it another go in a different location in the future. I think the Collective was a great place and that their circumstances were not conducive to continued success. They did a smart thing by quitting before it got really bad. Someday maybe they'll return.
The best thing that could ever happen to that building is for Abdul to sell it...to me...for $250,000 to $300,000, not the $450,000 to $500,000 he thinks it's worth.
Hugs not drugs.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on May 13, 2009, 10:46:15 AM
The best thing that could ever happen to that building is for Abdul to sell it...to me...for $250,000 to $300,000, not the $450,000 to $500,000 he thinks it's worth.
Another Joe Momma's by TU perhaps? ;)
Maybe the Collective would work better in another location, maybe in the Pearl? That area needs new businesses and it would still be close to TU and also downtown and Cherry Street. One of the storefronts along 6th would be perfect IMO.
I agree. With the 1st St. Music Hall guys supposedly going to the old Eclipse it would be great to see something open in the old diner space next door. Still a rough area though - I would be nervous opening much outside of a venue there.
Does the owner of Eclipse (Rahal I think) own most of the 6th St. commercial property? Someone needs to buy him out and get things rolling down there.
Quote from: Nic Nac on May 13, 2009, 01:54:34 PM
I agree. With the 1st St. Music Hall guys supposedly going to the old Eclipse it would be great to see something open in the old diner space next door. Still a rough area though - I would be nervous opening much outside of a venue there.
Does the owner of Eclipse (Rahal I think) own most of the 6th St. commercial property? Someone needs to buy him out and get things rolling down there.
What they really need is the city to invest in a streetscape project on 6th from Peoria to Utica (and eventually to Lewis and ultimately Delaware). That right there could really be a catalyst for additional development. That and the entire canal/drainage project the city has proposed for that area.
K Rahal does own a good deal of property in the Pearl, though I'm under the impression that he's in no hurry to sell any of it or to fix it up. He does care about the Pearl and has been accumulating property there for some time, I just wouldn't expect him to bend over backwards accommodating other peoples' dreams for the area he's been high on for years. His point continues to be that he's the one who had the vision first. Why should he sell his stuff now?
Shelby Navarro, however, owns a good amount of property in the area and has different intentions. He owns the property on the SE corner of 6th and Peoria for example and has high hopes. A few good tenants in there and all of a sudden, things really start looking up.
Something like The Collective would be perfect there and if I have my way...something like it will be there.
The Pearl has good bones and the development plans for the area make it very intriguing. The problem right now is that it's hard for most people to want to be the first ones in. The Eclipse is a great move because it's already worked there and it has a recognizable name. I have many fond memories of that place myself.
As for Joe Momma's on 11th... Don't hold your breath.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on May 14, 2009, 04:30:37 AM
Shelby Navarro, however, owns a good amount of property in the area and has different intentions. He owns the property on the SE corner of 6th and Peoria for example and has high hopes. A few good tenants in there and all of a sudden, things really start looking up.
Does Navarro have any specific plans for the SE corner of 6th and peoria? Will he lease it out or put in something himself? I've not noticed a for lease sign.
Dave Strader has some interests in the Pearl District as well and has posted here before, maybe he will drop in and add his .02 on the area.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on May 14, 2009, 04:30:37 AM
K Rahal does own a good deal of property in the Pearl,...
Is "K" still around? I heard rumors a long time ago that he just up and disappeared one day never to be heard from again. That rumor was from a band member whose band played there all the time. He said that Eclipse essentially shut down because K vanished. Is there any truth to that?
I don't know anything about him vanishing. I know that he is very much alive and around. He goes to the Pearl District Association Meetings.
As for Navarro's property, it's for lease....and his current office at 4th and the lots behind it are for sale.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on May 14, 2009, 04:30:37 AM
The Pearl has good bones and the development plans for the area make it very intriguing. The problem right now is that it's hard for most people to want to be the first ones in. The Eclipse is a great move because it's already worked there and it has a recognizable name. I have many fond memories of that place myself.
I don't know if its actually considered part of the Pearl or not, but I've always thought the Zelda's antique buildng on utica (7th? 8th? I think) would make a good bar/restraunt if the that disrtict ever caught on. I looks pretty bad though probably cost a fortune to renovate.
noticed some work being done on the inside (new bar on the food side)...anyone know what's going in!?
They've been working on it for several weeks now. I need to stop and ask, but I haven't. So no, I don't have any idea.
But I'd place money on that property being the most turned over business location in Tulsa over the last 7 years.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 08, 2009, 03:15:37 PM
They've been working on it for several weeks now. I need to stop and ask, but I haven't. So no, I don't have any idea.
But I'd place money on that property being the most turned over business location in Tulsa over the last 7 years.
You would think a great location. Ruined by parking and access issues.
It has an attached parking lot, public parking on the street around the corner, and a ready supply of customers within walking distance. For access it is on a 2 way street, 1 block off of a major intersection, 3 blocks from the interstate, and on a corner lot in a commercial area.
What are the parking and access issues?
Sparty,
It's off the beaten path with no highway access. The few times the devils been by there it was not an easy parking situation during an event across the street. It's a dead zone otherwise.
It's an okay location for halftime cocktails. Gotta get our dose somehow.
Peace,
FOTD
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 09, 2009, 12:49:16 PM
It has an attached parking lot, public parking on the street around the corner, and a ready supply of customers within walking distance. For access it is on a 2 way street, 1 block off of a major intersection, 3 blocks from the interstate, and on a corner lot in a commercial area.
What are the parking and access issues?
Residential neighbors don't like being a parking lot when there's a shortage of on-site parking. A big part of the problem is, that was a janitorial supply company for as long as I can remember, and it was never designed to have 70-80 patrons in it at any given time. Same problem Brookside homeowners have dealt with for years.
Quote from: FOTD on June 09, 2009, 12:53:59 PM
Sparty,
It's off the beaten path with no highway access. The few times the devils been by there it was not an easy parking situation during an event across the street. It's a dead zone otherwise.
It's an okay location for halftime cocktails. Gotta get our dose somehow.
While you raise some valid points, the Buck has NO parking and does just fine around the corner. Down the street The Colony has far less parking and similar highway access and is going great. Down a few more blocks the Tindog lacks parking and does fine. And the latter two are not next to 2,500 21-25 year olds 9 months of the year and neither is so close to a major intersection nor enjoys game day perks.
When there is a game on, no the parking is not good. But the same can be said of anywhere in Norman, Stillwater, or nearly anywhere else with D-I athletics. On those days the location is MUCH more of a positive than a negative. $5 tall boys that cost you $1.50 to get out the door selling as fast as you can throw them at the crowds.
And parking in the neighborhood isn't particularly popular, but it has been a fact of life in that area for 80 years. It is a fact of life in Brookside and Cherry Street too. It is a fact of life in every major city in the United States. In and of itself it isn't detrimental to the business location.
However, I wholeheartedly agree that I will miss my halftime fix at the Collective.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 09, 2009, 02:15:43 PM
However, I wholeheartedly agree that I will miss my halftime fix at the Collective.
I definitely miss going and getting a Zingo for lunch at least once a week. :(
Quote from: BierGarten on May 14, 2009, 09:40:09 AM
Is "K" still around? I heard rumors a long time ago that he just up and disappeared one day never to be heard from again. That rumor was from a band member whose band played there all the time. He said that Eclipse essentially shut down because K vanished. Is there any truth to that?
Saw Kay last week and he is doing well....great family. His kids are amazing.
He is reopening Eclipse and Martinson and Teagarden are bringing their vibes there. K hopes to open an international quality restaurant next door. But the eatery is several months if not years away. Eclipse (or whatever they may call it) will reopen very soon.
Understand that its going to be a new Brookside by Day....bring somemore business to the hood..downtown doesnt need to get all the heat...
Quote from: FOTD on June 09, 2009, 04:12:29 PM
Saw Kay last week and he is doing well....great family. His kids are amazing.
He is reopening Eclipse and Martinson and Teagarden are bringing their vibes there. K hopes to open an international quality restaurant next door. But the eatery is several months if not years away. Eclipse (or whatever they may call it) will reopen very soon.
In the meantime, they've been holding Mixtape Wednesdays at the Crystal Pistol. I believe they said the Eclipse should open July 1st.
Quote from: forrest on June 12, 2009, 10:33:47 AM
Understand that its going to be a new Brookside by Day....bring somemore business to the hood..downtown doesnt need to get all the heat...
That should do well there.
Drove by today and the old Collective has a new sign,
Campus Grill
Breakfast, Lunch, and a Night Life
I noticed this on Thursday and forgot to share the news. I have several hopes for this place: a)they have good food, b)they're open late, c)they don't get screwed by the landlord like the Collective did, and d)that it will be around for more than just a few months or a year.
Knowing the building's storied history and apparently colorful owner, I have doubts. But I hope, nonetheless, that it is a success.
Who is the owner?
Another bar & grill, that's too bad. It would have made a nice Starbucks or expansion to Shades of Brown. Pubs are a way too crowded market. The Collective sold coffee, but the setup was like something you would find at a serve yourself motel 6 morning breakfast. That place was doomed to fail, which I feel bad about because I didn't say anything about their coffee bar setup the one time I went there.
Quote from: brianh on August 17, 2009, 11:10:36 AM
Another bar & grill, that's too bad. It would have made a nice Starbucks or expansion to Shades of Brown. Pubs are a way too crowded market. The Collective sold coffee, but the setup was like something you would find at a serve yourself motel 6 morning breakfast. That place was doomed to fail, which I feel bad about because I didn't say anything about their coffee bar setup the one time I went there.
You don't think coffee is a crowded market? Everyone has horned in on the boutique coffee game, including every gas station and C-Store and even fast food outlets are into it. Saffron's tried to do the deli and coffee house thing a couple of blocks away and I loved the place, but it didn't seem to attract the TU crowd they were counting on. Within walking distance of TU's campus you can get a gourmet coffee at probably 8-10 different places including on campus.
Not trying to spar with you, but there's plenty of good coffee and WiFi around TU as it is. Whomever is going in there would be wise not to target their business model predominantly at TU students.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 17, 2009, 12:25:38 PM
You don't think coffee is a crowded market? Everyone has horned in on the boutique coffee game, including every gas station and C-Store and even fast food outlets are into it. Saffron's tried to do the deli and coffee house thing a couple of blocks away and I loved the place, but it didn't seem to attract the TU crowd they were counting on. Within walking distance of TU's campus you can get a gourmet coffee at probably 8-10 different places including on campus.
Not trying to spar with you, but there's plenty of good coffee and WiFi around TU as it is. Whomever is going in there would be wise not to target their business model predominantly at TU students.
agreed, the TU student population is too mobile to be hassled with walking anywhere. Their parking issues are pretty non exisitant and seem have no issue encroaching on the residential neighborhood surrounding.
The campus residential population has more than doubled in the last 2 years, so the dynamics have probably changed a lot. BUT - the campus also has at least three coffee shops and one bar ON campus. So it's hard to say what the effect is.
Nonetheless, there are ~7500 people across the street for 9 months of the year. That can't be bad for business. Particularly on the 6 days when 35,000 people are across the street or the 12 days when 8,000 additional people are there (game days). I find it hard to believe someone can't succeed there . . . and I was hoping the Collective was it.