Work To Begin Soon On Inner Dispersal Loop
http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=10317762
Sounds like they are closing down two legs of the IDL (North and West) for an extended period of time.
The article says it should take 200 days for each direction, for a total of about 16 months.
What do you bet this turns into two years minimum?
My main question is, will people finally learn that the IDL is redundant when the legs are closed for two years? I've heard many on here calling for the removal of one or two legs of the IDL. I've heard the IDL called the Inner Dispersal Noose because it cuts off all community connections between downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. I hear back when it was built, lots of historic homes, buildings, and neighborhoods were destroyed.
Anyhow, sounds like once completed the west and north legs will be renovated and ready to go for some time into the future. That means they aren't going anywhere. So which leg would you axe if you had the choice, the south leg or the east leg?
Quote from: YoungTulsan on May 06, 2009, 09:40:32 PM
So which leg would you axe if you had the choice, the south leg or the east leg?
Oddly enough, I use them all at various times. As I've written before, the best solution would be to leave the highway in place, but do what we can to make better connections to the neighborhoods surrounding downtown.
If I had to pick, I'd selfishly choose east, despite it being a bad idea.
I personally would want east to go, simply because it is the portion that I use the least.
North. The IDL really makes integrating OSU-Tulsa into Brady difficult. I think any momentum for doing this will have to be pushed by the university.
Quote from: SXSW on May 07, 2009, 07:58:38 AM
North. The IDL really makes integrating OSU-Tulsa into Brady difficult. I think any momentum for doing this will have to be pushed by the university.
You guys can talk about this to death; it just isn't going to happen. All parts of the IDL are part of the Interstate Highway System, a federal project. The South and East legs are designated I-444 although they aren't signed as such. North and West are I-244.
http://roads.tulok.net/roads/u-i444.html
Killing any of the legs has issues.
South: commuter traffic
West: Essentially to the interchange of 3 highways
North: Interstate through traffic
East: Least important, IMHO, but still a through highway and a major on/off access point to downtown.
- - -
If I could redo the entire system, I would opt out of the wrap around downtown structure by just having the BA leg. Expand it to standard 8 lanes +/- merge etc. and keep it sunken. Preferably with large bridges that can sustain small retail buildings ON the bridges (so as to NOT breakup the street scape too much).
I-244 would cut North of OSU Tulsa and be the buffer between dense and mixed use downtown and the traditional residential areas to the North. I understand that a transition is preferred, but I-244 can't be killed entirely. Make I-244, the BA and the other highways come together at one interchange in the neighborhood that has been cut off between highways and the river to the West of the BOk center (other side of the highway though. Call it W. 1st and Quanah) so the remaining areas are attached to the downtown. It doesn't seem to do them any good to have them separated and by themselves.
I know it won't happen and I don't think it would be worth $$$ to redo it, just sayin in hindsight something different would be good. Probably even less freeways overall. If the BA would have remained a 4 lane expressway maybe Tulsa would be a denser more walkable city.
I'd take that bet in a heartbeat.
2 years....right....
my money's on 2013.
Quote from: Hoss on May 07, 2009, 08:30:40 AM
You guys can talk about this to death; it just isn't going to happen. All parts of the IDL are part of the Interstate Highway System, a federal project. The South and East legs are designated I-444 although they aren't signed as such. North and West are I-244.
http://roads.tulok.net/roads/u-i444.html
I wouldn't get rid of it I would just advocate burying it like the south leg. Uptown and downtown are fairly well-integrated because the IDL is below grade at this location.
Quote from: SXSW on May 07, 2009, 09:26:12 AM
I wouldn't get rid of it I would just advocate burying it like the south leg. Uptown and downtown are fairly well-integrated because the IDL is below grade at this location.
this actually makes a lot of since. The east and north could both benifit from this. I don't think it would be worth the money to buy the west however.
Quote from: custosnox on May 07, 2009, 10:14:10 AM
this actually makes a lot of since. The east and north could both benifit from this. I don't think it would be worth the money to buy the west however.
Funny, it looks to me like the west is just as impacted by its leg of the IDL as the area to the north or Pearl.
I'd support a 'mini-Big Dig' to completely bury as much as possible of the IDL. It would be worth the money we'd have to spend to do it. It'll never happen in my lifetime, though. Even just trenched would be enough, it wouldn't have to be completely capped.
Quote from: nathanm on May 07, 2009, 01:39:50 PM
Funny, it looks to me like the west is just as impacted by its leg of the IDL as the area to the north or Pearl.
I'd support a 'mini-Big Dig' to completely bury as much as possible of the IDL. It would be worth the money we'd have to spend to do it. It'll never happen in my lifetime, though. Even just trenched would be enough, it wouldn't have to be completely capped.
Would you support the same headache Boston got over the Dig?
Quote from: Hoss on May 07, 2009, 01:44:01 PM
Would you support the same headache Boston got over the Dig?
Progress requires sacrifice, so yes. If you're talking about the substandard work done by the contractors? Not so much.
Having driven on the new road, I can only say that it's very nice (except when the ceiling falls in and kills you) and not yet overly congested. Not much of a view, though..unless you're a road geek. ;)
Quote from: cannon_fodderkeep it sunken. Preferably with large bridges that can sustain small retail buildings ON the bridges (so as to NOT breakup the street scape too much).
^ This is the most we could possible hope for, and a great idea for future consideration. A Big Dig would never happen, besides, what would the point be of a tunnel? Just for people who wish to bypass downtown?
Quote from: YoungTulsan on May 07, 2009, 01:54:20 PM
^ This is the most we could possible hope for, and a great idea for future consideration. A Big Dig would never happen, besides, what would the point be of a tunnel? Just for people who wish to bypass downtown?
Tunnels can have exits to the surface. :-*
My favorite view of downtown is rounding the Northwest leg of the IDL. You are high enough to have an unostructed view of everything.
Quote from: nathanm on May 07, 2009, 01:56:25 PM
Tunnels can have exits to the surface. :-*
Then the morlocks come at night.
If you had a few billion dollars to burn this is how you could kill off the IDL:
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/553/nomoreidl.jpg)
Kills the BA from Lewis to Peoria, kills the south leg of the IDL, kills the east leg of the IDL. Continues the BA along the train tracks (with the tracks integrated into the highway just as they are from Sheridan to Lewis) up to the NE section of downtown where it meets 75 & 244. That cluster of ramps would need to be redone as well.
All of the green areas could redevelop, downtown could be walkable all the way from the BOK center district to Cherry Street.
All we need is a few billion dollars, lol ;)
Quote from: YoungTulsan on May 07, 2009, 02:08:12 PM
If you had a few billion dollars to burn this is how you could kill off the IDL:
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/553/nomoreidl.jpg)
Kills the BA from Lewis to Peoria, kills the south leg of the IDL, kills the east leg of the IDL. Continues the BA along the train tracks (with the tracks integrated into the highway just as they are from Sheridan to Lewis) up to the NE section of downtown where it meets 75 & 244. That cluster of ramps would need to be redone as well.
All of the green areas could redevelop, downtown could be walkable all the way from the BOK center district to Cherry Street.
All we need is a few billion dollars, lol ;)
So let's just kill the area along the train tracks because it's already not great?
I know! Why don't we turn 71st Street into a grade separated highway? Wouldn't it be nice to have another way from 169 to 75 north of the evil toll road?
I'm not intending to be mean about it, but that's the worst idea I've heard yet regarding the IDL. Moving the problem is not a solution.
How is that moving the problem? That is replacing existing highway with about 1/3rd the footprint in new highway.
Quote from: YoungTulsan on May 07, 2009, 02:18:47 PM
How is that moving the problem? That is replacing existing highway with about 1/3rd the footprint in new highway.
You're basically just moving the wall somewhere else. Moving it to places that are already having problems, no less.
Hmm well I was thinking of that path as more of an old warehousey-type of area. I guess you are referring to the neighborhoods there as being troubled?
With new construction you can get it right, at least by building it in a less obstructive way as opposed to the IDL in its current form. It opens the walls between Cherry Street and downtown though, could you just imagine that entire space with good infill development and walkability?
Also, look at the BA through midtown. It really isn't as bad as other highways in that stretch from Sheridan to Lewis, much less Berlin-Wallish than 244 or 44 are. You could also do what CF mentioned with the IDL, on that new stretch of the BA with connective streetscapes on bridges over a recessed freeway.
Quote from: YoungTulsan on May 07, 2009, 02:26:34 PM
Also, look at the BA through midtown. It really isn't as bad as other highways in that stretch from Sheridan to Lewis, much less Berlin-Wallish than 244 or 44 are. You could also do what CF mentioned with the IDL, on that new stretch of the BA with connective streetscapes on bridges over a recessed freeway.
Oh, it really is just as bad, although not as wide, it's just that the rest of the highway isn't in a trendy part of town we're trying to make pedestrian oriented, so nobody talks about it.
As far as linking Cherry Street to downtown, the aforementioned bridges with buildings would solve that issue pretty easily. That part of the IDL is almost all below grade. Pearl and OSU-Tulsa are much worse off. About like the areas farther down the BA, actually, just scarier in some people's minds because they believe that all bad things in Tulsa happen downtown and in north Tulsa.
Edited to add: The problem isn't the highway. It's already easy to get between downtown and cherry street. I've walked and biked in that area in the not too distant past. The problem is Peoria being pretty uninviting north of the BA. Fixing up the bridge over the BA would help there. I haven't been under the tangled web at 13th street, though, so I can't really say what that's like. The underpass on 11th doesn't bother me, though. Looking at the satellite images, it seems like 13th would be a nicer route as there is less bridge to go under.
Quote from: SXSW on May 07, 2009, 09:26:12 AM
I wouldn't get rid of it I would just advocate burying it like the south leg. Uptown and downtown are fairly well-integrated because the IDL is below grade at this location.
Agreed. There have actually been plans made by the city to suppress the north leg. I'm assuming this isn't what is being done now though. It would be nice to see the Brady District flush with OSU-Tulsa. If OSU-Tulsa ever opens student housing, they could really incorporate student life with the Brady District and the rest of Downtown.
Quote from: perspicuity85 on May 08, 2009, 02:54:03 AM
Agreed. There have actually been plans made by the city to suppress the north leg. I'm assuming this isn't what is being done now though. It would be nice to see the Brady District flush with OSU-Tulsa. If OSU-Tulsa ever opens student housing, they could really incorporate student life with the Brady District and the rest of Downtown.
I don't know what the city could do to 'suppress' the north leg, seeing how, like I've said earlier, it's part of the National Interstate Highway System.
Quote from: Hoss on May 08, 2009, 06:51:31 AM
I don't know what the city could do to 'suppress' the north leg, seeing how, like I've said earlier, it's part of the National Interstate Highway System.
We were going to pay it hush money.
I dont think the IDL is that big of a deal. I think we just need a change in mindset here.
I see a lot of talk on here about connecting this area with that, or complaints that areas that were connected and great, were disconnected and ruined once the IDL was put in place.
I think these areas can still be great, though perhaps connected to different areas than they once were, or connected in different ways than they once were. Or, lets even consider that its ok that they arent connected in a certain way. Areas dont HAVE to be pedestrian friendly/connected, they can be wonderfully unique, distinct areas. I am reminded of downtown and uptown in Dallas, each is a distinct collection of areas bisected by a large mass of highways. Some of the most expensive and desirable highrise lofts are actually the ones on either side of the highways looking across to the buildings on the other side. The highway becomes a spacer which allows for an incredible view. That view is very desirable in an urban environment, especially as it becomes more dense and your other likely view might be the building next to you. I have seen LOTS of examples like this where the buildings line up along the highways like lining a beach front, each of them now having this great skyline of buildings on the other side. (if I were buying one of those new contemporary lofts on Cherry Street, I would want one facing the highway so that I could have a view of downtown, not a building next to me.) In other words, take the situation we have and work with it. As downtown infills and eventually starts going up, people are gonna like those view potentials, and the gaps the highway creates will not seem as large.
Now thats just part of the picture. The other thing to consider is, some areas can be perfectly fine not connected the way they once were. Why does Cherry Street Have to be Connected to downtown for instance? Think Urban Villages, small urban nodes connected by mass transit, or just via bike/scooter. Again, Uptown Dallas and Downtown Dallas each are thriving, though you wouldnt want to walk from one to the other, but there are plenty of places to walk to within each area. The whole city doesnt have to be walkable from one end to the next. Hopefully it will have lots of walkable nodes, but you dont HAVE to be able to walk from one node to the other. If you can, great, if you cant, no big deal. Even within the IDL there is the potential for many pedestrian friendly nodes which could be connected to each other. Downtown can be perfectly fine as a distinct urban village, or villages, all on its own. Though I dont believe the "disconnects" between neighboring areas are as bad as people make them out to be. No it cant be connected to the different areas the way it once was, but it doesnt have to be, nor do those areas have to be connected to downtown the way they once were and can become urban villages connected to other areas in their own rights.
The Pearl district and a potential east village for instance. If the Pearl really grows the way they imagine it, it wont need to be connected to downtown the way it once was. The Pearl can connect to TU down 6th and 11th streets, and to Whittier Square. Though I also contend again, that once these areas truly infill, the gap the highway makes wont seem as large and can actually act as a welcome break creating distinction between different areas/"villages". The East Village can be more connected to whats in the rest of downtown. Downtown within the IDL is plenty big, and can still be connected in certain areas. The Pearl-TU-Whittier Square area is plenty big. Each "Urban Village" a trolley ride away from the other. They dont have to be one huge mass.
I think what many are really complaining about is more our current lack of infill and "build up" within each area, versus, connections between the areas. Or people trying to connect things the way they were, versus connecting different areas. People will only walk so far, whether they walk in one direction or another is not the question, its whether the area they are in, is worth walking in. Take a trolley or bus to the next area if you want. Encourage each area that can connect to another in a pedestrian friendly way, to do so. Things dont have to be exactly the way they once were in order to still be great.
Well, it looks like this project will be completed relatively on time. I can't imagine this last phase, which began in 3Q2010 not being completed by the end of the year. The ODOT website says it will be complete in "early 2011." Does anyone have a better idea of when that is? I'd consider the 1Q of the year to be the "early" part of the year. Mainly, for selfish reasons, I'm most concerned about the Sand Springs Expressway to North Leg part.
Quote from: Nik on February 12, 2011, 08:25:56 PM
Well, it looks like this project will be completed relatively on time. I can't imagine this last phase, which began in 3Q2010 not being completed by the end of the year. The ODOT website says it will be complete in "early 2011." Does anyone have a better idea of when that is? I'd consider the 1Q of the year to be the "early" part of the year. Mainly, for selfish reasons, I'm most concerned about the Sand Springs Expressway to North Leg part.
That west side will likely be done first, the north side has many bridges with no decking at all on them still.
This will all rap up just in time to start the 244 bridge construction whhich will again reroute IDL traffic in new and fun ways.
Announced open today.
QuoteBy 3 p.m. today, all legs of the Inner Dispersal Loop were opened to traffic for the first time since mid-2009.
Barriers on the eastbound lanes of the loop's north leg came down about the same time local, state and federal officials celebrated the highway's dedication at ONEOK Field.
The dedication, meant to celebrate the $75 million stimulus-funded repaving project, was moved inside because of the rain.
It included representatives of the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, Tulsa Mayor Dewey Bartlett, Gov. Mary Fallin and U.S. Rep John Mica, R-Fla., who heads the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.
"What is a Republican who voted against the stimulus package doing here," Mica asked.
Mica and Fallin voted against the stimulus bill while in Congress.
Mica said that he wanted to celebrate one of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act's success stories.
"The sad part is we don't have more of those," said Mica, adding that only 7 percent of stimulus funds -- about $63 billion -- went to infrastructure projects. "We've taken a congested loop ... and we have rehabilitated it and restructured it so we can get around in this community."
The IDL project, the largest single project ever awarded by ODOT, repaved about six miles of highway and 43 bridge decks. Minor work on the loop will continue for several weeks
The drive into work was so much nicer today! No backed up traffic coming into downtown from the west.
Quote from: Nik on February 25, 2011, 09:53:17 AM
The drive into work was so much nicer today! No backed up traffic coming into downtown from the west.
It was easier for me to get to Blue Dome after work last night.
Not easier than before construction started...just easier than when the IDL was closed.
Quote from: Townsend on February 25, 2011, 09:55:00 AM
It was easier for me to get to Blue Dome after work last night.
Not easier than before construction started...just easier than when the IDL was closed.
Was the ride any smoother?
Quote from: Red Arrow on February 25, 2011, 12:03:49 PM
Was the ride any smoother?
If you're talking about the 1st Street ramp from westbound 244, amen. I'm going to give that a look next Tuesday (my next hockey game), as I had been taking 244 to the Cincinnatti/Detroit exit to get to the arena (which really is almost faster). I know that was one of the last things they did.
Quote from: Hoss on February 25, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
If you're talking about the 1st Street ramp from westbound 244, amen. I'm going to give that a look next Tuesday (my next hockey game), as I had been taking 244 to the Cincinnatti/Detroit exit to get to the arena (which really is almost faster). I know that was one of the last things they did.
The first street exit is actually still closed...well as of this morning when the road was a pile of rubble. ;D
Quote from: OSU on February 25, 2011, 12:10:50 PM
The first street exit is actually still closed...well as of this morning when the road was a pile of rubble. ;D
Pile of rubble..you mean that ramp wasn't any different than that before they started?
;D
Quote from: Hoss on February 25, 2011, 12:19:38 PM
Pile of rubble..you mean that ramp wasn't any different than that before they started?
;D
Haha...It is now smaller pieces of rubble... :D
Quote from: OSU on February 25, 2011, 12:29:26 PM
Haha...It is now smaller pieces of rubble... :D
Everytime I'd come around that ramp, it was like riding perpetually on washboard. I've had my car 3 years now and I'm surprised just riding on that hasn't required front end work and alignments.
Quote from: OSU on February 25, 2011, 12:29:26 PM
Haha...It is now smaller pieces of rubble... :D
If the rubble gets small enough, we could call it a gravel road and run a grader over it once in a while.
Quote from: Red Arrow on February 25, 2011, 12:03:49 PM
Was the ride any smoother?
I was heading East from 75. The road smoother? yes. The ease of use? Still not so swell. The traffic coming together is a pain in the butt.
Quote from: Nik on February 25, 2011, 09:53:17 AM
The drive into work was so much nicer today! No backed up traffic coming into downtown from the west.
Curious to see if that manages to improve the log jam east bound on the BA since north-bound IDL traffic doesn't have to come through. I doubt it though since Tulsans don't have a clue how to merge and form a line.
I took the west loop around to the north this morning and it's fantastic. So great not to have to drive over the glopped up repairs on the NW corner near the Tisdale split.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2011, 01:11:24 PM
Curious to see if that manages to improve the log jam east bound on the BA since north-bound IDL traffic doesn't have to come through. I doubt it though since Tulsans don't have a clue how to merge and form a line.
It might take a few days before they discover it's open as well.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2011, 01:11:24 PM
I doubt it though since Tulsans don't have a clue how to merge and form a line.
Sure we/they do. Come to a full stop and let 4 or 5 cars from other lanes proceed as an act of courtesy. :P
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2011, 01:11:24 PM
Curious to see if that manages to improve the log jam east bound on the BA since north-bound IDL traffic doesn't have to come through. I doubt it though since Tulsans don't have a clue how to merge and form a line.
I drive that way everyday, and it was actually a lot less congested this morning around 7:30. But it might have just been a fluke.