I drive by the abandoned Safeway on Denver almost every day (I know this has been discussed elsewhere, that's not what I'm on about.)
I'm curious about finding some statistics on how many people live within walking distance of the store. Does anyone know where I might get some rough population estimates on the high-rise condos and apartments in the area?
This is just kind of a pet project I've been mulling over in my head for a while. Any information would be helpful.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 11:35:54 AM
I drive by the abandoned Safeway on Denver almost every day (I know this has been discussed elsewhere, that's not what I'm on about.)
I'm curious about finding some statistics on how many people live within walking distance of the store. Does anyone know where I might get some rough population estimates on the high-rise condos and apartments in the area?
This is just kind of a pet project I've been mulling over in my head for a while. Any information would be helpful.
Very good question but someone else will have to give you numbers. I live on Reservoir Hill (in North Tulsa) and drive to either 15th & Lewis or 41st and Yale to do my grocery shopping at least once a week. So do my neighbors. There is no decent retail grocery operation in the entire North West Quadrant of the City. And residents of Riverview and Maple Ridge must make the same drive I do.
That old Safeway is a decent looking building with lots of parking and it's centrally located for all these crusty old neighborhoods -- full of hungry, well-off shoppers.
I don't understand why someone isn't there, doing business, raking in the bucks right now.
I think there are several reasons that store closed. One, for a long time that area, downtown, and other nearby areas were going downhill. In recent years the trend has reversed. Another thing was that while the area was going downhill, the store went downhill too. I remembered going in there before it closed, it looked like crap. I didnt ever want to go back and would rather drive further to go someplace decent. But, thats neither here nor there lol. I do think the area is ripe for a grocery store once again.
Question, if a grocery store was to go in there, would it have the best luck being an inexpensive market or more "upscale"? If it were inexpensive, could it compete with the bigger chains that can get big cost reductions? We have had plenty of discussions on here where people will say,,, "I am not going to that store even though its closer to me because the prices are higher than the store I go to." or " Well that store doesnt have this or that, the selection isnt as good as my bigger store."
Quote from: TheArtist on April 23, 2009, 01:02:09 PM
I remembered going in there before it closed, it looked like crap. I didnt ever want to go back and would rather drive further to go someplace decent.
You sure nailed that one. That floor was gross.
your best bet would probably be census 2000 data, yeah its pretty out of date at this point.
but i don't know of anywhere else that will have that detailed information you're requiring.
http://factfinder.census.gov/home/saff/main.html?_lang=en
there is an online map you can play around w.
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=&geo_id=16000US4075000&_geoContext=01000US|04000US40|16000US4075000&_street=&_county=tulsa&_cityTown=tulsa&_state=04000US40&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=160&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=ACS_2007_3YR_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null®=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=
That was my "home" store when I lived at Center Plaza about 22 years ago. It was pretty rough. I think the old Cog Corner was still there across the street. There was a rough liquor store and other undesireable businesses around then. The area isn't quite such a homeless magnet anymore since most of the homeless centers are north of the tracks now.
I live about 6 blocks away from that store. Would LOVE to see it open again.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 11:35:54 AM
I drive by the abandoned Safeway on Denver almost every day (I know this has been discussed elsewhere, that's not what I'm on about.)
I'm curious about finding some statistics on how many people live within walking distance of the store. Does anyone know where I might get some rough population estimates on the high-rise condos and apartments in the area?
This is just kind of a pet project I've been mulling over in my head for a while. Any information would be helpful.
The owner of that land will no more lease to a fly by night grocer than the man in the moon. He will sit tight for the first high return low risk option. To date, no takers. Don't hold your breath.
Quote from: FOTD on April 23, 2009, 02:19:56 PM
The owner of that land will no more lease to a fly by night grocer than the man in the moon. He will sit tight for the first high return low risk option. To date, no takers. Don't hold your breath.
Is it a situation where he can claim a loss and offset profits from other holdings? So it is actually to his advantage to leave it sitting empty?
Certainly the city would have tools at its disposal to make his life miserable and to motivate him to get it going.
Quote from: Hometown on April 23, 2009, 03:37:21 PM
Is it a situation where he can claim a loss and offset profits from other holdings? So it is actually to his advantage to leave it sitting empty?
Certainly the city would have tools at its disposal to make his life miserable and to motivate him to get it going.
1) Sure. But they don't need to do that. The land "someday" will be re-developed.
2) contrary to popular belief, the city is not in the real estate bidness. Also, we live in a democracy where the rights to property are paramount. The city could no more "motivate" these wise business people to move along any more than the wondering homeless in the "Brady". the owner did make concessions when the library was on the ballot....so, they no doubt would cooperate in a reasonable venture. Again, don't turn blue in the face over this...
Well in the case of the owner of the property holding out, that's a shame. I don't think the city putting "pressure" on anyone is the solution -- instead do something to make it worth their while. Incentive.
So far as what type of grocery, I could see it going either way. High-end whole foods type place or lower cost, though I think a low cost provider would face steeper competition from other places. I don't know. Something in the middle of the road might be nice. I can't think of any chain in particular (at least from this part of the country). I would say that personally it seems like the kind of people that are moving into downtown might be the types of people who would appreciate a higher-end "boutique" type grocery store...who knows.
I'm neither a grocer nor a developer, I just see great potential in the property. :)
Speaking of large or small groceries, I've not heard Blue Jackalope mentioned lately. Are they still around?
Quote from: FOTD on April 23, 2009, 03:59:34 PM
1) Sure. But they don't need to do that. The land "someday" will be re-developed.
2) contrary to popular belief, the city is not in the real estate bidness. Also, we live in a democracy where the rights to property are paramount. The city could no more "motivate" these wise business people to move along any more than the wondering homeless in the "Brady". the owner did make concessions when the library was on the ballot....so, they no doubt would cooperate in a reasonable venture. Again, don't turn blue in the face over this...
City Club ....
But maybe the owner of this property is better placed. I can hear Ms. Taylor, now, "It doesn't matter that we are best friends..."
Tulsa's such a small town, how can we help an occasional conflict?
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 04:01:38 PM
Well in the case of the owner of the property holding out, that's a shame. I don't think the city putting "pressure" on anyone is the solution -- instead do something to make it worth their while. Incentive.
So far as what type of grocery, I could see it going either way. High-end whole foods type place or lower cost, though I think a low cost provider would face steeper competition from other places. I don't know. Something in the middle of the road might be nice. I can't think of any chain in particular (at least from this part of the country). I would say that personally it seems like the kind of people that are moving into downtown might be the types of people who would appreciate a higher-end "boutique" type grocery store...who knows.
I'm neither a grocer nor a developer, I just see great potential in the property. :)
This town is crawling with potential just about everywhere north of 51st St.
People in San Francisco would kill for the Pearl District or a zillion other potential opportunities here.
All we need are more people with dispossible income with the kind of sensibility that drives them to the city center. We seem to be just short of a critical mass. And we are doing our best to drive away one of our most dynamic economic engines that had been populating the older parts of town -- the Latin Community.
Quote from: Hometown on April 23, 2009, 04:13:53 PM
This town is crawling with potential just about everywhere north of 51st St.
People in San Francisco would kill for the Pearl District or a zillion other potential opportunities here.
All we need are more people with dispossible income with the kind of sensibility that drives them to the city center. We seem to be just short of a critical mass. And we are doing our best to drive away one of our most dynamic economic engines that had been populating the older parts of town -- the Latin Community.
I seem to recall that the local government has been an active supporter FOR the Latino community here in Tulsa. It was the Oklahoma government that was working on driving them away.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 04:01:38 PM
Something in the middle of the road might be nice. I can't think of any chain in particular (at least from this part of the country).
That is supposedly what Food Pyramid was going for. I don't know how you can make that work when all of your employees seem to be under 18, though. Not enough "give a crap" in the employees to make anything but utilitarian really work.
That's why I liked Albertson's. You'd walk into the store and you'd actually see adults working there and they were friendly and had good service. It wasn't staffed by disaffected teens who can barely look at you, much less offer any kind of help. I really hate that about Reasor's. I tolerated Food Pyramid because of the folks left over from the Albertson's days. By the time I moved across town a few months ago, the teens were taking over and the store was significantly worse for it.
If somebody could make that store on Denver into a place that was decent to shop, I'd drive the extra 2 miles over there to shop most of the time, despite the fact that I'd literally have to drive right past Reasor's to do it.
While I'd rather see the building torn down and an urban store built in its place that fronts Denver with parking behind, just to see a grocery downtown I could accept the current layout. It would be a good PR move for Reasor's as a local grocer aiding the revitalization of downtown.
Quote from: SXSW on April 23, 2009, 06:40:58 PM
While I'd rather see the building torn down and an urban store built in its place that fronts Denver with parking behind, just to see a grocery downtown I could accept the current layout. It would be a good PR move for Reasor's as a local grocer aiding the revitalization of downtown.
Given the location, I don't see significant benefit in moving the parking to the rear of the store over just having a business there of some sort. If it were a couple of blocks north, it would be imperative.
Quote from: FOTD on April 23, 2009, 02:19:56 PM
The owner of that land will no more lease to a fly by night grocer than the man in the moon. He will sit tight for the first high return low risk option. To date, no takers. Don't hold your breath.
Understanding the people that own the property may go a long way as to an explanation for it sitting vacant, and the fact that the City does not or can not apply any pressure to the owner.
A few years back there was to have been a Library built in that vicinity.
Below a portion of an article written by Michael Bates in regards to the property owners in that area.
There has been some discussion of the fact that Dan Schusterman, donor of the land on which the new Central Library would sit, also owns (or rather, various companies and LLCs connected with him own) a considerable portion of the land between Denver and Cheyenne, 7th and 11th. He may be hoping that the new arena at 3rd and Denver and the new library at 11th and Denver may enhance the perception of the area enough to allow him to sell his other land at a premium to developers. Paul Wilson, president of Dan Schusterman's Twenty-First Properties, was a member of the Dialog/Visioning Leadership Team.
This is an unfounded guess, but I'm betting there are plenty of properties being "sat on" until property values downtown increase. I guess it makes sense.
Quote from: Hometown on April 23, 2009, 03:37:21 PM
Is it a situation where he can claim a loss and offset profits from other holdings? So it is actually to his advantage to leave it sitting empty?
Nope. Even if he is able to deduct expenses relating to the property and net the deductions against other income producing activities that would still not be "to his advantage".
That would be like someone saying "I don't want to make any more money because I would have to pay more taxes.
Quote from: BierGarten on April 24, 2009, 11:00:02 AM
Nope. Even if he is able to deduct expenses relating to the property and net the deductions against other income producing activities that would still not be "to his advantage".
That would be like someone saying "I don't want to make any more money because I would have to pay more taxes.
Isn't that guido's constant argument?
Dan's dead. The empire he created, separate from his brother Charles, can sit and sit and sit for opportunity.
He made his fortune in minerals indeed very similar to holding land.
Wilson is a responsible executive who will strike a deal based on its merits, its risk, and his fiduciary role to the family.
Everyone here wanting to see a grocery or whatever speak up as to the amount of cash you are willing to commit and what return you expect. We'll go from there.
Leasing the building to a grocer (as opposed to selling the building to a grocer) would allow the owner to continue to "speculate" as at the end of the lease the owner still owns the building/land. In fact, from what little I know, grocers tend to want to lease rather than own anyway.
Perhaps a good lead for the owner would be to talk to whatever grocer ends up striking a lease on the old North Tulsa Alberstons...
Quote from: BierGarten on April 24, 2009, 12:29:40 PM
Leasing the building to a grocer (as opposed to selling the building to a grocer) would allow the owner to continue to "speculate" as at the end of the lease the owner still owns the building/land. In fact, from what little I know, grocers tend to want to lease rather than own anyway.
Perhaps a good lead for the owner would be to talk to whatever grocer ends up striking a lease on the old North Tulsa Alberstons...
Then you have the cost of operating the building as a landlord. Sometimes it can be money ahead to let it sit, rather than do repairs/renovations, and deal with the donkey-pain of being a landlord.
I thought OSU Tulsa Medical School was using the building for something right now, or did I hear wrong?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 24, 2009, 02:00:34 PM
I thought OSU Tulsa Medical School was using the building for something right now, or did I hear wrong?
Parking was the last use.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 11:35:54 AM
I drive by the abandoned Safeway on Denver almost every day (I know this has been discussed elsewhere, that's not what I'm on about.)
I'm curious about finding some statistics on how many people live within walking distance of the store. Does anyone know where I might get some rough population estimates on the high-rise condos and apartments in the area?
This is just kind of a pet project I've been mulling over in my head for a while. Any information would be helpful.
+1 to PepePeru for pointing you in the right direction. For short distances like this, you need to use the maps to select "census blocks" and build up a walking radius map. It's a pain, but I'm not exactly busy right now (duh...I'm on TulsaNOW!)
I selected a rough four block radius. That's a quarter mile, which is a comfortable five minute walk. There are 1,022 people, just over half of them living in the condos.
I also found this
cool site (http://beta.freedemographics.com/). I typed in the address in the top left corner and it whipped out a 1-3-5 mi. radius report that's probably good enough to take to a lender.
| US Census 2000 Variables | 1 Miles: 1200 S DENVER AVE TULSA | 3 Miles: 1200 S DENVER AVE TULSA | 5 Miles: 1200 S DENVER AVE TULSA |
| Population | 9,969 | 70,364 | 168,515 |
| Households | 4,890 | 30,582 | 73,181 |
| % Female | 42.35% | 49.68% | 51.67% |
| % Male | 57.65% | 50.32% | 48.33% |
| Median Age | 37.9 | 34.4 | 35.3 |
| Household Average Income | $41,360 | $48,335 | $45,077 |
Start typing in other grocery store addresses and it compares favorably.
Hope this helps. Now accepting karma... :)
^Great website, CL. But it is based upon 2000 census. I would think (hope) that there has been some increase in the downtown population in the last 9 years.
Quote from: pmcalk on April 25, 2009, 10:03:13 AM
^Great website, CL. But it is based upon 2000 census. I would think (hope) that there has been some increase in the downtown population in the last 9 years.
Hopefully. I hope more people are living downtown and I know for a fact that we've seen new condos built since 1999, when the last census was taken. But for the moment, this website is using the freshest data available at that level.
In 2005, the Census Bureau started a switch from the historic 10-year census to a continuous sampling program. In the future, they'll be providing a rolling annual estimate for everyplace at every level of detail. 2005-7 estimates are already available, at least down to the city level. After 2010 or 2011, it's my understanding that they will be fully operational and be providing samples for smaller areas (tracts, block groups, and even blocks). It's a terrific idea, people will be able to make decisions with very fresh demographic data.
Interestingly, the ACS 2005-7 population total for Tulsa was 384,040, that's 9,000 less than the 2000 population of 393,049. Maybe downtown has grown, but the whole city seems to have experienced some shrinkage...so to speak.