South Carolina regulators OK nuclear power project.
Another step closer and it moves them to the top of the list. They schedule the 1st tower up and running by 2016.
This seems the way to go over "Clean Coal"...but I'm no expert.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE51B46920090212
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
South Carolina regulators OK nuclear power project.
Another step closer and it moves them to the top of the list. They schedule the 1st tower up and running by 2016.
This seems the way to go over "Clean Coal"...but I'm no expert.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE51B46920090212
Our utility cant afford to make the system it's already got reliable by burying cables, so it's not likely we would be able to responsibly fund another reactor project.
And we havent yet solved the problem of having to refrigerate tons of nuclear waste on-site for all of perpetuity.
Id like to see us get serious about alternatives like wind. Big utilities have been playing bait-and switch, saying they plan on building wind farms but ending up building coal plants in their place once they got the transmission lines in.
I'm not sure wind is a serious alternative. It's a brick in the wall.
Nuclear energy needs to be part of our energy strategy. The solution here isn't that complicated; we need diversification so that next time we have a price shock, it doesn't sting.
There are a lot of reasons nuclear energy has struggled in the US. Some of it is the start up cost, some of it is the opposition, and some of it is the general inability of our government to think long term. We also have a bad habit of not making the plants uniform (the plants in France are generally uniform) and therefore more difficult to regulate.
I think it's a fair point that our "local" utility has issues. Part of that, at least, goes back to why AEP was able to take over CSW/PSO a few years back and a lot of that goes back to the repeal of the Public Utilities Holding Company Act (PUHCA). It shouldn't have happened.
Wind is not a viable alternative. I've gone over this in detail but in summary: 1) It is not where the people are, 2) Transit costs are too high and bleed energy, 3) peak supply of wind is inverse to peak demand for electricity (hot summer days = no wind), and 4) the sporadic nature of wind energy means other plants would have to exist to handle the load anyway. Since fixed costs extensive this is no small problem. Likewise, start up costs for the most efficient plants (read: coal or nuclear) are significant and would be unable to cope with a sudden shift in wind supply.
Not saying it couldn't be done, just that it would require massive investment that might not be worth (actual cost of power is cheap, but transit is in the multiple billions and will entail power loss) it AND a rethinking of our power grid (storage capacity? More auxiliary gas?).
Per nuclear:
+1 to Gold.
We currently store nuclear waste in the basement of each facility. We spent over $1,000,000,000 building a secure and remote facility to house it all... but NIMBY has prevented the transport.
I briefly looked, but could not find a good source for cost per megawatt hour of production taking fuel and capital into account.
i'd be for nuclear power if we built (as a world scope project) a giant magnetically propelled sled on Antarctica that shoots our spent waste fuel either into empty space or directly at the sun.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Wind is not a viable alternative. I've gone over this in detail but in summary: 1) It is not where the people are, 2) Transit costs are too high and bleed energy, 3) peak supply of wind is inverse to peak demand for electricity (hot summer days = no wind), and 4) the sporadic nature of wind energy means other plants would have to exist to handle the load anyway. Since fixed costs extensive this is no small problem. Likewise, start up costs for the most efficient plants (read: coal or nuclear) are significant and would be unable to cope with a sudden shift in wind supply.
Not saying it couldn't be done, just that it would require massive investment that might not be worth (actual cost of power is cheap, but transit is in the multiple billions and will entail power loss) it AND a rethinking of our power grid (storage capacity? More auxiliary gas?).
Per nuclear:
+1 to Gold.
We currently store nuclear waste in the basement of each facility. We spent over $1,000,000,000 building a secure and remote facility to house it all... but NIMBY has prevented the transport.
I briefly looked, but could not find a good source for cost per megawatt hour of production taking fuel and capital into account.
I left out Harry Reid's blockade of Yucca Mountain. I'm a registered Democrat, but can't stand Reid and his "service" to his nation on this matter is on top of my list of complaints. We have a safe place to store the waste. Reid just won't let us use it.
I remembered reading this article just a while back about a new type of reactor that sounds interesting...
"The process would ultimately reduce the transuranic waste from the original fission reactors by up to 99 percent. Burning that waste also produces energy."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090127131654.htm
(http://www.american.com/graphics/2008/january-01-08/Yes-No%20Nukes.jpg)
I've got a black fox bumper sticker I was thinking of putting on the back of my car...
I favor using all forms of fuel. Let's be open to everything. But right now what we need is oil and coal for the most part, so let's focus on that to get us to the future. Meanwhile we can work to get other forms of fuel on line. A guy in the 1800's invented a wind sail "car" and he called it a "Prairie Sail Wagon" not much is talked about it the history books, but it's intresting to learn about. I believe the old TV show "Death Valley Days" did a story about that "Prairie Sail Wagon". The idea is not really practical but it's the thinking outside of the box that really counts.[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
A guy in the 1800's invented a wind sail "car" and he called it a "Prairie Sail Wagon" not much is talked about it the history books, but it's intresting to learn about. I believe the old TV show "Death Valley Days" did a story about that "Prairie Sail Wagon". The idea is not really practical but it's the thinking outside of the box that really counts.
(http://www.highonadventure.com/Hoa06aug/Larry/Elaborate%20Land%20Yachts.jpg)
(Note: Can we not resize images so we don't have to scroll to read the thread?)
Anyway lets also not forget there is more then one type of reactor, the Pebble bed reactor for instance might be a good alternative to the traditional reactors.
quote:
Originally posted by godboko71
(Note: Can we not resize images so we don't have to scroll to read the thread?)
Sorry. Hit refresh and the image will resize to fit.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by godboko71
(Note: Can we not resize images so we don't have to scroll to read the thread?)
Sorry. Hit refresh and the image will resize to fit.
No need to be sorry, and thats odd having to refresh for it to resize.
Anyway thanks for the heads up, normally I just use the zoom out feature on Firefox.
It's going to be a while before someone proposes reactors again in our back yard. It's unfortunate, because a lot was riding on the technology maturing.
Japan races to prevent nuke reactor meltdowns
KORIYAMA, Japan — Japan's nuclear crisis intensified Sunday as authorities raced to combat the threat of multiple reactor meltdowns and more than 180,000 people evacuated the quake- and tsunami-savaged northeastern coast where fears spread over possible radioactive contamination.
Nuclear plant operators were frantically trying to keep temperatures down in a series of nuclear reactors — including one where officials feared a partial meltdown could be happening Sunday — to prevent the disaster from growing worse.
But hours after officials announced the latest dangers to face the troubled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex, including the possibility of a second explosion in two days, there were few details about what was being done to bring the situation under control.
Officials, though, have declared states of emergency at six reactors — three at Dai-ichi and three at another nearby complex — after operators lost the ability to cool the reactors.
Hidehiko Nishiyama, a senior official of the Economy, Trade and Industry Ministry, indicated the reactor core in Unit 3 had melted partially, telling a news conference, "I don't think the fuel rods themselves have been spared damage."
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=337&articleid=20110313_337_0_KORIYA881738
OMG. Why in the hell does ANYONE think that a nuclear power plant is EVER a good idea? I'm surprised that Japan, after having us blow them to hell and back during WWII, would have ever even considered the idea at all. I hope this is a wake up call. Oh yeah, I forgot, BP gets to drill again so how bad could a nuclear power plant in a earthquake zone be?
It would be refreshing to hear from someone who can state accurately what's happening there with the nukes.
What are there? Six out of control reactors?
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 13, 2011, 08:29:48 PM
OMG. Why in the hell does ANYONE think that a nuclear power plant is EVER a good idea? I'm surprised that Japan, after having us blow them to hell and back during WWII, would have ever even considered the idea at all. I hope this is a wake up call. Oh yeah, I forgot, BP gets to drill again so how bad could a nuclear power plant in a earthquake zone be?
It would be refreshing to hear from someone who can state accurately what's happening there with the nukes.
What are there? Six out of control reactors?
Calm down...you're buying into all the media scare tactics and hype. Take a minute to think about what happened and how well things have gone considering the hell that was unleashed by the 9.0 quake and the following Tsunami.
I'm more concerned about what they aren't saying and the contortion of true situations. TMI and Chernobyl look small compared to this. Glad I live up air from Russelville .... can you say "new Madrid?"
Wonder how long THIS incarnation will last before getting the 'boot'...
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 13, 2011, 09:10:06 PM
I'm more concerned about what they aren't saying and the contortion of true situations. TMI and Chernobyl look small compared to this. Glad I live up air from Russelville .... can you say "new Madrid?"
Really? The IAEA has placed the accident in Japan at a level 4. Chernobyl was given a level 7, the highest the IAEA could assign.
The difference here is about 20 years and better containment. Oh, and catching the problem and actually admitting they had one. Russia didn't. At their peril.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/japan-ministers-ignored-warnings-nuclear
You are correct Ibanez. Not to worry. They were warned. Let them face the consequences of their decisions.
Breaking News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4767180/Another-blast-at-nuclear-plant-in-tsunami-devastated-Japan
"BREAKING NEWS: A hydrogen blast has occurred at Fukushima nuclear plant's No. 3 reactor, Kyodo News has reported.
Residents who live near the nuclear plant just south of Sendai have been ordered inside buildings."
They'll need some of that "better containment," Hoss.
Cannon,
Usually you are very close to reality, but obviously haven't been watching the reality of wind AND solar. I betting the Germans would be stunned, if not outright horrified to know that wind is not a viable alternative. Since they are at about 10% of their power needs and heading toward 15%. And running ahead of that in their obviously foolish headlong rush toward solar, too. They are aiming for about 15% for each before 2020. AND they are ahead of schedule and on or below budget.
As far as bleeding energy, would you be surprised to know that 30 to 40% of every kw generated in this country is lost to resistive losses in the grid. But the utilities can't justify the extra wire needed to reduce those numbers. This has been helped a little bit by moving to higher voltages, mostly in the 375,000 volt range, but some as high as 800,000 in a few places. Reduces the current for any given kilowatt, leading to fewer loses in the conductor.
I'm betting west Texas and California and Arizona would likely be surprised to know the thousands of windmills they have operating are not practical. They should not have done that, obviously.
As far as investment - yeah, it is big. But that is what 'economic activity' is all about, huh? And what a shame it would be to have a rethinking of anything. We should just keep on believing what big oil says and be good little girl and boy consumers and just don't worry. They will take care of us.
Hey, here's an idea - build a two level elevated lake for storage. Use the available wind to move water when wind electric is available from the lower level to the higher level. Then when peak demand is needed - or other times when capacity is adequate - let the water out to flow back to the lower level through the generators. Much like has been done for decades just east of Tulsa off of turnpike 412.
Here is a very conservative calculation for nuclear power done a few years ago, base on a vested interest of wanting nuclear to proliferate. They said that uranium would have to go to $575 per pound to be "competitive" with oil. (Which means it is way more than coal.) And since uranium is now running over that magical number, well, plain old oil is better right now. If you believe the "Pollyanna" version they present. If the REAL cost of nuclear is taken into account, added to the fact that easily mined uranium is pretty much gone. And Russia only has so much left to sell us (the reason uranium has stayed as cheap as it is.) The gap will only widen. Unless you think uranium is just spiking now for some reason and will drop back down to $75 per pound real soon. Oops! Forgot to add the billions of cost for the plant!! Sorry!
http://www.uranium-stocks.net/uranium-how-high-could-the-price-go%E2%80%A6576/
Uranium cost as of 2011
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html
Plus, can you spell Japan nukes? (I submit there is NO ONE on this planet that would be more qualified and responsible and likely to be successful at running a nuke than the Japanese.) But then, there are always acts of God, no matter how competent one is.
Notice in the cost article how costs are about $3,000 per kwH. Or $3 per watt. Just about the same as the cost for an installed solar system. Solar panels are running about a buck and a half per watt. Install usually nearly doubles the cost so somewhere near the $3 per watt. Without fuel cost. Or operating or back end pollution costs. (Front end - probably comparable.)
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 13, 2011, 09:49:44 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/japan-ministers-ignored-warnings-nuclear
You are correct Ibanez. Not to worry. They were warned. Let them face the consequences of their decisions.
Are you part of the movement to go back to living in caves, reject heating and air conditioning and live like we did centuries ago? Remember people die from exposure to extreme heat and cold and frequently died young centuries ago compared to now.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 13, 2011, 09:10:06 PM
I'm more concerned about what they aren't saying and the contortion of true situations. TMI and Chernobyl look small compared to this. Glad I live up air from Russelville .... can you say "new Madrid?"
Are you aware that a typical coal fired plant releases more radiation than a nuclear plant? They do because they are not regulated not to. TMI was a small deal in that the containment system worked. I will agree that storage of spent fuel is an issue. Breeder reactors offer a potential solution but are too intimidating to the general public.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 13, 2011, 09:55:03 PM
Breaking News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/japan-earthquake/4767180/Another-blast-at-nuclear-plant-in-tsunami-devastated-Japan
"BREAKING NEWS: A hydrogen blast has occurred at Fukushima nuclear plant's No. 3 reactor, Kyodo News has reported.
Residents who live near the nuclear plant just south of Sendai have been ordered inside buildings."
They'll need some of that "better containment," Hoss.
Now I'm curious, what do you think would happen with our refineries here if we were hit with an 8.9 earthquake? Yet you don't seem to be worried about the dangers of that. Trying to compare nuclear reactors to Chernobyl to anything today is simply trying to force a past disaster to fit into your idea of something no matter how far off it is.
We have become completely and totally complacent about oil - we even go so far as to just dump billions of gallons of it on the ground. And have for a couple hundred years. Mix in a little gravel and we are deluded into thinking we got a road!
Red,
Come on... don't get on the bandwagon of just jumping to the most extreme position (even if it may well be the end result!). We DO live in caves. But they are air conditioned. And much more easily damaged by tornadoes than the ones of millenia ago. And we could be getting more than a couple percent of our energy usage from solar and wind. A reasonable target being 30% as demonstrated by Germany.
And cost effectively, too.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 13, 2011, 10:48:41 PM
We have become completely and totally complacent about oil - we even go so far as to just dump billions of gallons of it on the ground. And have for a couple hundred years. Mix in a little gravel and we are deluded into thinking we got a road!
Red,
Come on... don't get on the bandwagon of just jumping to the most extreme position (even if it may well be the end result!). We DO live in caves. But they are air conditioned. And much more easily damaged by tornadoes than the ones of millenia ago. And we could be getting more than a couple percent of our energy usage from solar and wind. A reasonable target being 30% as demonstrated by Germany.
And cost effectively, too.
Just testing the waters. Some folks arbitrarily jump on present technology without considering the real consequences. Sure, develop wind and solar but recognize that they too have limitations. I kind of remember a big move to eliminate petro products in the NW USA possibly a few decades ago now. The environmentally correct move to burn wood resulted in more pollution than the petroleum processes. I hate it when a fad becomes law and then demonstrates the law of unintended consequences.
The rest of the world has embraced both wind and solar NOT as a replacement for oil - that is the BIG LIE that the Murdochian Cabal is foisting on us - but to supplement and enhance. NO one would argue that 30% of energy usage is going to eliminate oil, but it will cut imports. It will help balance of trade deficits. It will incidently help pollution - even taking into account the manufacture of solar cells and wind generators. It will spur economic activity in manufacturing - look at that HUGE barn up by Tiger Switch in north east Tulsa that is churning out towers. And the propeller plant in Gainesville TX that is making blades for windmills. They come through Tulsa from time to time.
And nukes have NEVER been economically viable compared to oil or natural gas, or coal - even if we required coal to be cleaned up!
Which brings to mind the question that should be asked by every American in every discussion about energy. Why don't we have fusion reactors yet? Simple question. We have been told by the "experts" - the same people in bed with big oil - that a practical fusion reactor is "20 years away". Well, if we would spend more that $18.36 on development every year - as compared to the Billions (yes, with a capital B) that we fund fission nukes with every year - we would have been there about 1986. So the question ya gotta ask yourself is, "Why?"
Well, it provides extremely inexpensive, widely available power in an extremely environmentally friendly format/footprint. The waste byproduct is clean (distilled) water. Think of the disruption this would cause to the powers-that-be structure in the world. Massive. And chaotic - they would lose their hold on much of that power (not electric, but political).
As they would with 30% (or more) solar and wind. You got a power (electrical, not political) system right on your house. You are less dependent, hence less controllable. What really puzzles me is why the more "libertarian" minded haven't jumped on this with both feet. Makes no sense until you factor in the Murdoch Kool Aid. They buy it.
And here is a little more direct information about cost of fission nuke.
About $7 billion each, when all the smoke clears (and radiation leakage dies down??)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_new_nuclear_power_plants
Quote from: Hoss on March 13, 2011, 09:25:21 PM
Wonder how long THIS incarnation will last before getting the 'boot'...
Not sure which one you mean but I'm betting it's a Santa impersonator.
QuoteDespite the scary race to prevent two meltdowns in Japan, the man who led the Chernobyl response explains how advances in nuclear design and the swift response will prevent any damage along the lines of 1986 Soviet disaster.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-13/why-japans-nuclear-meltdown-is-no-chernobyl/ (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-13/why-japans-nuclear-meltdown-is-no-chernobyl/)
It's way too early to make those claims....
"The man that led the Chernobyl response" I hope he talks about how bad they f'd that up.......
In this part of the country, natural gas is our biggest asset.
It's encouraging, then, that there are more ways to get energy out of it than to just outright burn it.
There's fuel cell technology:
..but how effective that could be remains a mystery. It's still encouraging, though.
Now, the downside to our abundant resources is that utilities come here to generate power to transmit to other areas that have stricter environmental controls, i.e., our air can be polluted so that someone else doesnt have to.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 14, 2011, 10:47:54 AM
It's way too early to make those claims....
You are a degreed nuclear physicist, correct?
Quote from: Conan71 on March 14, 2011, 11:08:33 AM
You are a degreed nuclear physicist, correct?
He stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night........ :D
Quote from: patric on March 14, 2011, 11:00:37 AM
Now, the downside to our abundant resources is that utilities come here to generate power to transmit to other areas that have stricter environmental controls, i.e., our air can be polluted so that someone else doesnt have to.
I believe that's pretty much the concept of electric cars.
Quote from: patric
Now, the downside to our abundant resources is that utilities come here to generate power to transmit to other areas that have stricter environmental controls, i.e., our air can be polluted so that someone else doesnt have to.
Quote from: Red Arrow on March 14, 2011, 11:52:27 AM
I believe that's pretty much the concept of electric cars.
Seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison, what am I missing?
When the speakers for nuclear energy come forward immediately to claim this is no Chernobyl one wonders if they are not paid lobbyists or just have their own interests at hand. "Safe Nukes" = "Clean Coal" in the Liars' Lexi-Con.
From my Holiday Inn bedside reading:
http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info-on-japan-nuclearobama-invites-tokyo-electric-to-build-us-nukes-with-taxpayer-funds/
You would have to find out who paid the Chernobyl guy to say that. He obviously is not just commenting out of thin air. And notice how the comment was made that the containment hasn't been breached yet. Just watch a while.
The Bloom Energy is a fantastic thing. I looked at that thing early last year when that first aired and they truly are 'magic'. The only drawback today is that they are capacity (manufacturing) constrained, so are building a 100 Kw unit. Enough for four or five homes - or more, if small ones like mine. Get together with all your neighbors and put together your own little electric coop of half a dozen homes and you would have an excellent situation.
They say they are going to go down to residential size. I can hardly wait. Have my own power plant. And if we ever get sane on our marijuana laws, will be able to make my own biogas even cheaper than ONG will sell it to me.
Couple points of interest; 50%+ efficiency. And only around 773 lbs/MW-hr of CO2. Compared to thousands for all the other ways we generate power.
Rough Example;
Anthracite coal is 32.5 MJ/kg and produces a 4:1 ratio of CO2. Assuming a 60% combined cycle power plant efficiency, that's 1,600 lbs of CO2 per MWH of electricity produced.
http://www.bloomenergy.com/products/what-is-an-energy-server/
Quote from: patric on March 14, 2011, 12:29:40 PM
Seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison, what am I missing?
Electric cars are "pollution free". They will certainly help reduce the pollution in, say, Los Angeles. The electricity to charge the batteries is generated somewhere else. Somewhere else gets to have the pollution generated to run the electric cars in LA.
Note: I am thinking of battery powered (no combustion based backup) plug in to charge the batteries vehicles. It also applies to one of my favorites, electric powered (real)trolleys. The amount and type of pollution also depends on the way the electricity was generated. Filling a canyon with water is not as popular as it once was, even if it is to generate electricity.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 14, 2011, 01:14:52 PM
You would have to find out who paid the Chernobyl guy to say that. He obviously is not just commenting out of thin air. And notice how the comment was made that the containment hasn't been breached yet. Just watch a while.
The Bloom Energy is a fantastic thing. I looked at that thing early last year when that first aired and they truly are 'magic'. The only drawback today is that they are capacity (manufacturing) constrained, so are building a 100 Kw unit. Enough for four or five homes - or more, if small ones like mine. Get together with all your neighbors and put together your own little electric coop of half a dozen homes and you would have an excellent situation.
They say they are going to go down to residential size. I can hardly wait. Have my own power plant. And if we ever get sane on our marijuana laws, will be able to make my own biogas even cheaper than ONG will sell it to me.
Couple points of interest; 50%+ efficiency. And only around 773 lbs/MW-hr of CO2. Compared to thousands for all the other ways we generate power.
Rough Example;
Anthracite coal is 32.5 MJ/kg and produces a 4:1 ratio of CO2. Assuming a 60% combined cycle power plant efficiency, that's 1,600 lbs of CO2 per MWH of electricity produced.
http://www.bloomenergy.com/products/what-is-an-energy-server/
There are many other organic substances you can use for biomass reaction. MJ is nothing but a red herring to people wanting to legalize it, sort of like medical MJ. I honestly don't care if MJ gets legalized, making a simple point that hemp is not the end-all in biofuels.
Besides, you see what ethanol and biodiesel have done to grain prices, do you really want the price of pot to go up at the dealer?
Back on topic, looks like the DC clan from both sides are saying "whoa, we better go slow on Nukes."
Where's the spent fuel seems to be on the minds of many.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 14, 2011, 04:45:04 PM
Back on topic, looks like the DC clan from both sides are saying "whoa, we better go slow on Nukes."
::)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110314/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_nuclear_energy
Ibanez might want to put a call in to the government nuclear engineers in Japan. Word is they are in a major panic.
Fuckushima just had their third explosion....is 19 miles far enough distance to keep the population away. I think we're getting close to seeing a society that benefits from no guns.
Where are Jane Fonda and Michael Douglas when you need them?
Be surprised if he makes it past this weekend...
Hemp is the miracle biomass that the numbers would indicate. Switchgrass is very good, too. We should do both.
And if growing the quantities needed to take care of ALL our fuel needs - which is EASILY achievable - the price per ton would be very low. Right now you can buy plain old prairie hay for about $30 a ton. Alfalfa at small quantity retail is a couple hundred a ton, or less. Pot would end up less than hay in the quantities we are talking about. And at 50 gallons per ton (1910 yields), it would be about 60 cents a gallon. And if you had a few acres, you could grow some tonnage of your own, build a little biofuel processor and make your own ethanol or biodiesel. How about that - personal responsibility and independence once again in the land of the free.
Corn is and always will be one of the worst possible ways to get ethanol. It is physically impossible to make yields/cost come anywhere near the other alternatives.
And when I say ALL of our fuel needs, that means ALL. It would completely replace oil. That is the number one reason it will stay illegal. Can't have the little guy doing for himself.
Quote from: Hoss on March 14, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
Be surprised if he makes it past this weekend...
Yes, it appears the freakout is in full swing.
If you have the technology to make switchgrass or hemp an economic biofuel of any scale please feel free to post the data here. Scientisits and engineers have been working for decades to make it work and have yet to succeed. Even corn based ethonol is uneconomical but-for government subsidies and it isn't clear you actually get more ethonol from the process than the process consumes.
We're working on it, and switchgrass is thusfar the most promising (it's a perennial, hemp doesn't get the same root stock or speed of growth). The latest tests have met with great success: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080109110629.htm . But hurdles still exists, noteably with cellulose based ethonol is the time it takes to "ferment" the material. Thus, it remains to date a non-solution needing much more research (we've been flirting with it since 1930, working hard since 1990).
- - -
Per the nuclear plants: don't be too harsh. These plants were built in the 1970's using, of course, 1970's technology. Most have actually outlived their proposed useful life and SHOULD be $hut down. Consider that most things built in the 1970's have long since been replaced with safer and more efficient models.
Is anyone proposing a ban on cars because Ford Pinto was a safety disaster? Of course not, we greatly improved the design and the older unsafe models have been put out of service (for the most part).
Oddly enough, our own hinderance of newer nuclear power plants has meant we keep the older, more unsafe, plants operating far past their designated lifespan. Then again, most of our bridges, dams, and other power plants *shouild* be retrofitted or replaced too...
too bad we wasted that "surplus" in the 1990's on hookers and blow, or whatever we did with it.
Nuclear energy is one of the safest, efficient, and healthiest forms of electrical generation, that is until the smile really hits the fan. 8)
Quote from: Conan71 on March 14, 2011, 11:08:33 AM
You are a degreed nuclear physicist, correct?
http://www.examiner.com/foreign-policy-in-national/japan-s-nuclear-crisis-worsens-the-world-reacts
Now this indicates some over reacting. Look for brown outs world wide.
And this: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/15/japan_nuclear_storage_pool_boil/index.html
boiling water? Misery to the third degree.
I didn't read in either story where there would be brown outs world wide. There should be no reason to. FAIK, there are no power transmission lines going to and from Japan, so there would be no one else on Japan's grid other than Japan, and therefore other countries power supplies are totally unaffected by this situation.
CF,
Repeating, again, what has been covered several times, the British and Americans did it in 1910. It has been posted here. Repeatedly. 50 gallons per ton - in 1910. 12 to 14 tons per acre - hemp. 4 to 6 tons per acre - switchgrass. About 1 ton per acre - corn. So, again, for marijuana, a 14 times increase in productivity per acre WITHOUT even taking into account the difference in tilling, harvesting, fertilization, and pest control required for corn.
My conjecture is that we could do better than 50 gallons per ton today with just a little bit of effort.
Luckily, there appear to be some people out there who do pay attention.
10,000 deaths are due to the tsunami. The nukes could potentially cause more deaths than that but they haven't as yet.
Well, if there will be time delays and temporary shut downs across the globe of Nukes then deliver ability becomes an issue.
There may be underwater cables, but of course there are no power transmission lines going to and from Japan.
Thanks for setting that straight.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 15, 2011, 04:49:24 PM
CF,
Repeating, again, what has been covered several times, the British and Americans did it in 1910. It has been posted here. Repeatedly. 50 gallons per ton - in 1910. 12 to 14 tons per acre - hemp. 4 to 6 tons per acre - switchgrass. About 1 ton per acre - corn. So, again, for marijuana, a 14 times increase in productivity per acre WITHOUT even taking into account the difference in tilling, harvesting, fertilization, and pest control required for corn.
My conjecture is that we could do better than 50 gallons per ton today with just a little bit of effort.
Luckily, there appear to be some people out there who do pay attention.
You do realize there is a differance between industrial hemp and marijuana, right?
Absolutely. One is fun. One is for work.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 15, 2011, 08:08:18 PM
Absolutely. One is fun. One is for work.
yet you keep calling it marijuana when referring to the industrial hemp. And I would like to see these studies on using it for fuel.
"The level of radiation at the plant surged to 1,000 millisieverts early Wednesday before coming down to 800-600 millisieverts. Still, that was far more than the average." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/03/14/international/i002205D47.DTL
TRANSLATION: Radiation is about three million times normal levels. An hour's exposure would make you very sick and five hours would kill most people.
CONCLUSION: With the plant abandoned and astronomical radiation levels, it is hard to imagine how a catastrophic meltdown can now be avoided.
The truth becomes inescapable.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 15, 2011, 05:17:02 PM
10,000 deaths are due to the tsunami. The nukes could potentially cause more deaths than that but they haven't as yet.
Well, if there will be time delays and temporary shut downs across the globe of Nukes then deliver ability becomes an issue.
There may be underwater cables, but of course there are no power transmission lines going to and from Japan.
Thanks for setting that straight.
The problem is, when there's a large scale tragedy like this a lot of misinformation gets out there in the haste to sell news and get people to read the blogs. We also need to realize that there are many land-locked plants around the world which likely will never experience even 1/2 of the seismic loads these plants experienced, nor the associated string of problems with an ensuing tsunami. Painting the whole industry as being bad due to one incident like this really isn't a fair assessment.
I'm a proponent of safe, renewable, and responsible energy. Under ideal conditions, with the proper safeguards in place, nuclear is a great solution. But as I said earlier in another post, it's an incredibly safe way to generate electricity until the smile seriously hits the fan.
I think we've seen a perfect storm of sorts that no one could have imagined when the Japanese plants affected were in design phase. Two lessons learned: never underestimate nature's wrath and never over-estimate man's ability to cover his donkey in the face of nature's wrath.
Chernobyl was somewhat predictable. What most of us did not really recognize at the time due to the Soviet propaganda machine and the western press being kept out was how truly primitive the old USSR really was in so many ways. It's a miracle they did not have more disasters over the years.
You can tour the area, as well as the nuclear facility apparently:
http://www.tourkiev.com/chernobyltour/#1
Ever over-react?
QuoteSACRAMENTO, CA - Californians worried about radiation from the sticken Japanese nuclear reactors have cleared store shelves of an anti-radiation supplement despite assurances from health officials that they have nothing to fear.
"We had a run on potassium iodide and all of our products sold out in the first two hours Monday morning," said Susan Talerico of Elliott's Natural Foods in Folsom.
The Sacramento Natural Foods Co-op sold out its entire supply of products containing potassium iodide on Saturday, just one day after the Japanese earthquake and tsunami crippled the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant.
"We're basically telling people that we don't have it and we don't know when it will be coming in," said Stacie Traylor, one of the co-op's managers.
http://www.news10.net/news/story.aspx?storyid=128509&catid=2 (http://www.news10.net/news/story.aspx?storyid=128509&catid=2)
They are Californuts. They over-react all the time.
And apparently stupid. Iodine supplements only protect the thyroid, and minimally at that. They do nothing for any other part of the body.
Lead clothing would be a better purchase.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 15, 2011, 04:49:24 PM
CF,
Repeating, again, what has been covered several times, the British and Americans did it in 1910. It has been posted here. Repeatedly. 50 gallons per ton - in 1910. 12 to 14 tons per acre - hemp. 4 to 6 tons per acre - switchgrass. About 1 ton per acre - corn. So, again, for marijuana, a 14 times increase in productivity per acre WITHOUT even taking into account the difference in tilling, harvesting, fertilization, and pest control required for corn.
My conjecture is that we could do better than 50 gallons per ton today with just a little bit of effort.
Luckily, there appear to be some people out there who do pay attention.
Ok, if no one else will say it, I will.
If hemp production/fuel conversion units become feasible, will the market price of my old POS smoker Ford skyrocket if I make the conversion. Or will I just be followed around in traffic by a bunch of skater/dudes?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world/asia/17nuclear.html?hp
It's not going to get any better. Abuse of Power/Corruption at least speaks to many of the causes of the current situation as with so many issues confronting reality these days..
You will be followed by skater dudes!
But since hemp is not a mind altering substance, they probably won't stick around for long.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 15, 2011, 11:36:21 PM
Chernobyl was somewhat predictable. What most of us did not really recognize at the time due to the Soviet propaganda machine and the western press being kept out was how truly primitive the old USSR really was in so many ways. It's a miracle they did not have more disasters over the years.
You can tour the area, as well as the nuclear facility apparently:
http://www.tourkiev.com/chernobyltour/#1
Its interesting that the wildlife in the area has rebounded and is considered a wildlife refuge. Today there are some mutations visible in the flora of the Red Forrest but scientists have not seen mutations in fauna.
I wonder if it would be ok to open up a book for an over/under on how long this incarnation lasts?
;D
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/955468--japanese-power-companies-hid-nuclear-safety-problems-wikileaks?bn=1
Wikileaks provides invaluable information once again!
'EVERYTHING IS A SECRET'
"You're building on a heap of tofu," what foolish engineers do to prove they are human....
Quote from: Hoss on March 16, 2011, 12:59:09 PM
I wonder if it would be ok to open up a book for an over/under on how long this incarnation lasts?
;D
He's got to start slow and then go for the melt-down. I give it less than 6 months.
I must admit, he was missed.
Reasonable liberals make me question my politics sometimes.
Quote from: Hoss on March 16, 2011, 12:59:09 PM
I wonder if it would be ok to open up a book for an over/under on how long this incarnation lasts?
;D
Put me down for a ten spot on 14 days from now, with an +/- of two days.
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 17, 2011, 12:29:11 PM
Put me down for a ten spot on 14 days from now, with an +/- of two days.
With heiron turning every thread into a discussion of pot, some serious leg-humping may commence, and you may be right.
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 17, 2011, 12:29:11 PM
Put me down for a ten spot on 14 days from now, with an +/- of two days.
OK, now we need guidelines. Is this with ability to report PM's? Can we egg him on? Can anyone say who he really is online?
Quote from: Townsend on March 17, 2011, 12:34:34 PM
OK, now we need guidelines. Is this with ability to report PM's? Can we egg him on? Can anyone say who he really is online?
The best way is to set small traps. He gets caught in a few and then becomes paranoid. It's the paranoia that eventually causes him to go rogue.
Not every thread. Just the ones related to items that can more cost effectively be performed by that superior product. Includes entertainment, versus alcohol.
Quote from: Townsend on March 17, 2011, 12:34:34 PM
OK, now we need guidelines. Is this with ability to report PM's? Can we egg him on? Can anyone say who he really is online?
I'm just going to wait and see. I won't instigate or email mods.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-nuclear-advocates-try-to-limit-political-impact-of-japan-reactor-crisis/2011/03/17/AB6sr0k_story.html
"Nuclear power advocates are waging an intense lobbying campaign on Capitol Hill this week in an attempt to limit the political fallout from the reactor crisis in Japan, which threatens to undermine already shaky plans for expanded nuclear capacity in the United States." Imagine that.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 17, 2011, 03:49:44 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-nuclear-advocates-try-to-limit-political-impact-of-japan-reactor-crisis/2011/03/17/AB6sr0k_story.html
"Nuclear power advocates are waging an intense lobbying campaign on Capitol Hill this week in an attempt to limit the political fallout from the reactor crisis in Japan, which threatens to undermine already shaky plans for expanded nuclear capacity in the United States." Imagine that.
And in other news, no nukes advocates are waging an intense lobbying campaign on Capitol Hill this week in an attempt to capitalize on political fallout from the reactor crisis in Japan, which threatens to undermine already shaky plans for expanded nuclear capacity in the United States.
It's happy daze for the no-nukes crowd.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 17, 2011, 04:24:24 PM
And in other news, no nukes advocates are waging an intense lobbying campaign on Capitol Hill this week in an attempt to capitalize on political fallout from the reactor crisis in Japan, which threatens to undermine already shaky plans for expanded nuclear capacity in the United States.
It's happy daze for the no-nukes crowd.
Visions of 3 Mile Island dance in their heads. . .Of course now we know that the back seat of Ted Kennedy's car killed more people than 3 Mile Island.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 17, 2011, 04:29:17 PM
Visions of 3 Mile Island dance in their heads. . .Of course now we know that the back seat of Ted Kennedy's car killed more people than 3 Mile Island.
Bahahahaha!
Quote from: Gaspar on March 17, 2011, 04:29:17 PM
Visions of 3 Mile Island dance in their heads. . .Of course now we know that the back seat of Ted Kennedy's car killed more people than 3 Mile Island.
You do know that 3MI reactor one is still producing power and is licensed until 2034?
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 17, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
You do know that 3MI reactor one is still producing power and is licensed until 2034?
Yes, and fewer people have died there than in the back seat of Ted Kennedy's car.
"Helicopters dropped water, only to have it scattered by strong breezes. Water cannons mounted on police trucks — equipment designed to disperse rioters — were then deployed to spray water on the pools."
The irony -- water cannons that were used against anti-nuclear protesters are now being used against the things they were protesting.
God surely has a wicked sense of humor.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 17, 2011, 04:24:24 PM
It's happy daze for the no-nukes crowd.
Not at all. Most are just totally disgusted by the culture war that obliterates decent and good discussion on an educated basis.
The rest are just dismayed by lousy Japanese engineering. Or was it just another big company making a big mistake?
Arent those GE plants?
Quote from: patric on March 18, 2011, 11:04:47 AM
Arent those GE plants?
In a way, yes. This will become the world's largest dirt ball. Perhaps, we can export some Teahadists there to start a foreign colony. :D
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 18, 2011, 11:24:47 AM
In a way, yes. This will become the world's largest dirt ball. Perhaps, we can export some Teahadists there to start a foreign colony. :D
pancakes are you on about?
Quote from: nathanm on March 18, 2011, 05:10:30 PM
pancakes are you on about?
He never learns. Wonder when he'll start babbling about someone hijacking his account again...
The New York Times reports that GE marketed the Mark 1 boiling water reactors, used in TEPCO's Fukushima Daiichi plant, as cheaper to build than other reactors because they used a comparatively smaller and less expensive containment structure.
Yet American safety officials have long thought the smaller design more vulnerable to explosion and rupture in emergencies than competing designs. (By the way, the same design is used in 23 American nuclear reactors at 16 plants.)
In the mid-1980s, Harold Denton, then an official with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said Mark 1 reactors had a 90 percent probability of bursting should the fuel rods overheat and melt in an accident. A follow-up report from a study group convened by the Commission concluded that "Mark 1 failure within the first few hours following core melt would appear rather likely."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/safety-on-the-cheap_b_836347.html
"I don't think we have a nuclear problem just because of what happened in Japan," said Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.).
"Once in 300 years, a disaster occurs and they're all waiting for it and the Japanese are calm and collected, and only the politicians over here are hysterical,"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51301.html
Quote from: patric on March 20, 2011, 11:49:21 AM
"I don't think we have a nuclear problem just because of what happened in Japan," said Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.).
"Once in 300 years, a disaster occurs and they're all waiting for it and the Japanese are calm and collected, and only the politicians over here are hysterical,"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51301.html
That might be the only quote I'll ever agree with Inhofe on.
Quote from: Hoss on March 20, 2011, 12:54:12 PM
That might be the only quote I'll ever agree with Inhofe on.
He seems to either have a problem with math, or memory.
Quote from: patric on March 20, 2011, 02:10:40 PM
He seems to either have a problem with math, or memory.
But I get the gist of his argrument. A lot of nuclear scientists and people in the business have gone on and said that most of the media is blowing this way out of proportion. I even converse via email with a guy who is in the business but works in Europe and thinks the media here is terribly misinformed.
Quote from: patric on March 19, 2011, 05:58:48 PM
The New York Times reports that GE marketed the Mark 1 boiling water reactors, used in TEPCO's Fukushima Daiichi plant, as cheaper to build than other reactors because they used a comparatively smaller and less expensive containment structure.
Smaller and less expensive options are fine for a coffin because what it contains is separated by 6 feet of dirt from the rest of us. Marketing a less safe alternative (if this is really true) in nuclear power is simply not acceptable. I could see GE doing something like that, but Japan accepting something less than the US Gov't would is making my bullshit meter register a little especially considering the schooling we gave them on the dangers of radiation.
I'm interested to see where this thread off the main story goes upon investigation. If it's true, I'm glad I'm no longer a part owner in GE.
Quote from: Hoss on March 20, 2011, 02:14:43 PM
But I get the gist of his argrument. A lot of nuclear scientists and people in the business have gone on and said that most of the media is blowing this way out of proportion. I even converse via email with a guy who is in the business but works in Europe and thinks the media here is terribly misinformed.
Here, the worse the news is, the better the ad revenue. I'm very suspect of a lot of the information we are getting. It's like the guy on the WX channel saying the morning of the tsunami as it hit Hawaii: "If you want to know real coverage, turn off the news networks right now, it's hardly that bad".
Quote from: Conan71 on March 20, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Here, the worse the news is, the better the ad revenue. I'm very suspect of a lot of the information we are getting. It's like the guy on the WX channel saying the morning of the tsunami as it hit Hawaii: "If you want to know real coverage, turn off the news networks right now, it's hardly that bad".
Yep, because I damn sure don't want meteorologists telling me about tsunamis. They deal with the sky. Leave the sea and geology to those people who have studied them.
Meteorologists do study the sea. Not as much as a geologist, but enough to understand the whole weather cycle - starts with sea action - evaporation/condensation/precipitation.
I guess I'm wondering what would constitute "hardly that bad"??
Right now, we got 6 or 7 thousand dead from this thing, with 20,000 +/- still missing (probably a lot more). The Moore tornado only killed a few dozen, but that was considered "that bad".
Just curious. (Personal thought; this is pretty bad. Not as bad as Indonesia, or WWII, or even the death toll every year on our roads due to drunk drivers, but still not good.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 20, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
Meteorologists do study the sea. Not as much as a geologist, but enough to understand the whole weather cycle - starts with sea action - evaporation/condensation/precipitation.
I guess I'm wondering what would constitute "hardly that bad"??
Right now, we got 6 or 7 thousand dead from this thing, with 20,000 +/- still missing (probably a lot more). The Moore tornado only killed a few dozen, but that was considered "that bad".
Just curious. (Personal thought; this is pretty bad. Not as bad as Indonesia, or WWII, or even the death toll every year on our roads due to drunk drivers, but still not good.)
They don't study oceanography though. They study hydrology as it relates to the oceans. They don't study hydraulic dynamics of tsunamis. Least last I checked it wasn't in the curriculum.
That's probably true to a first approximation. I guess I wonder if one could get a good feel for the hydrology without at least a little bit of the hydraulics, too? At the very least, I think I would be curious enough to take a cursory look at it. But that's just me...
Ah, the dream to live in a world without risks from natural events. Hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards......
Let me know if you find that place on earth.
???
Or, huh???
I don't dream of that kind of world. Quite the opposite. I dream for the risks of all the above with the hope that when the time comes for me to step off this world, one of those is what does it rather than a slow lingering painful drawn out death. Give me one of those quick ones rather than the above.
I'm not believing anything I'm reading or that I am hearing. http://www.consciousbeingalliance.com/2011/03/japan-no-radiation-threat-western-press-evacuate/
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 20, 2011, 10:59:39 PM
???
Or, huh???
I don't dream of that kind of world. Quite the opposite. I dream for the risks of all the above with the hope that when the time comes for me to step off this world, one of those is what does it rather than a slow lingering painful drawn out death. Give me one of those quick ones rather than the above.
I know my hopes are that I get pinned in some rubble from a collapsed building then have slowly rising flood water almost drown me but not quite while I am in excruciating pain because my leg is broken but nobody finds me before I expire. NOT!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 20, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
I guess I'm wondering what would constitute "hardly that bad"??
He was referring to the waves hitting Hawaii and aimed at the west coast. The majors had everyone whipped into a frenzy and speculating on how much of the west coast would be flooded.
Did you get your personal gieger counter yet...... ???
One of the kids has one, so I am safe. I'll just borrow that one.
Breach suspected at troubled Japanese power plant
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110325/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake
Some workers exposed to radiation levels 10,000x normal levels, these guys going in there are true heros.
That's Fukushima'd up.
Fukuoku?
Not funny...take it from a real clown. >:(
Japan Radioactive Iodine Releases May Exceed Three Mile Island by 100,000 Times
Institute Calls for More Intensive Contingency Planning by Japanese Authorities; U.S. Should Move as Much Spent Fuel as Possible to Dry Storage to Reduce Most Severe Risks, Suspend Licensing and Relicensing During Review
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/03/25-3
We can't let Libya drown this out. THIS is far more important.
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 26, 2011, 01:47:37 PM
We can't let Libya drown this out. THIS is far more important.
An attempt to wipe out the entirety of a country's political opposition using violent means is absolutely positively less important than minor radioactive contamination that will likely dissipate in months, which is absolutely less important than tens of thousands of people dead from an earthquake and tsunami and the resultant people still starving to death because supplies can't reach them due to the devastation.
We not talking high levels of radiation in a puddle or a pool.
We're talking high levels of radiation in the open ocean three hundred yards from shore.
That's incredibly awful.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/03/26-0
Level of Iodine-131 in Seawater Off Chart
1,250 Times Higher than Normal; Contamination Spreading
The horror!
Nathan,
We support that all the time - the wiping out of political opposition - and when we don't support, we at least talk about it (Chavez in Venezuela. As in regime change of the democratically elected leader.) So how is that more important than even good intestinal regularity??
This discussion started BEFORE Fuckushima. It's now the end of the thread and the endof nuclear power as an option.
Oh the irony at TNF >:(
Japan's Nuclear Rescuers: 'Inevitable Some of Them May Die Within Weeks'
Beyond horror....more like dead earth. Can you believe I am citing a Faux News link? That's how bad this is.....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 31, 2011, 12:47:05 PM
This discussion started BEFORE Fuckushima. It's now the end of the thread and the endof nuclear power as an option.
Oh the irony at TNF >:(
Japan's Nuclear Rescuers: 'Inevitable Some of Them May Die Within Weeks'
Beyond horror....more like dead earth. Can you believe I am citing a Faux News link? That's how bad this is.....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/31/japans-nuclear-rescuers-inevitable-die-weeks/
God bless these brave souls.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 31, 2011, 12:52:27 PM
God bless these brave souls.
+1.
Is there actually any credible agency that does daily radiologic monitoring in Oklahoma?
This http://www.ok.gov/health/Organization/Office_of_Communications/News_Releases/2011_News_Releases/OSDH_Statement-OSDH_Continues_to_Monitor_Japan_Radiation_Situation.html
is out of date, and vague.
Quote from: patric on March 31, 2011, 02:37:59 PM
+1.
Is there actually any credible agency that does daily radiologic monitoring in Oklahoma?
I saw a story yesterday that over %50 of detectors are not working due to lousy EPA testing of sensors during the past 10 years (imagine that).
It's ok, Russellville is downwind and Carey Dickerson saved us from having radiation in our back yard with a little help from liberals Jackson Browne and Bonnie Raitt. :)
Crews 'facing 100-year battle' at Fuckushima'
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/01/3179487.htm
50 to 100 years of high levels of radiation leaking in to the Pacific?
Have we now lost The Gulf Of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean to Corporate greed?
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 02, 2011, 08:54:01 AM
Crews 'facing 100-year battle' at Fuckushima'
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/01/3179487.htm
50 to 100 years of high levels of radiation leaking in to the Pacific?
Have we now lost The Gulf Of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean to Corporate greed?
This isn't about greed. It is about poor contingency planning. The lack of information is about saving face. Watch freakonomics. The Japanese have a 97 or 98% murder solving rate. Know why? If they can't find a killer it is an "abandoned body". That is why everyday they make a report. Then say it was wrong. Either they are trying to save face or they are too incompetent to use nuclear power.
Quote from: Trogdor on April 02, 2011, 09:17:42 AM
This isn't about greed. It is about poor contingency planning. The lack of information is about saving face. Watch freakonomics. The Japanese have a 97 or 98% murder solving rate. Know why? If they can't find a killer it is an "abandoned body". That is why everyday they make a report. Then say it was wrong. Either they are trying to save face or they are too incompetent to use nuclear power.
What? The Japanese have a high rate of solving murders because as a preventative measure nobody has guns!
IT'S NOT THE JAPANESE IT'S THE COMPANY THAT OWNS THE REACTOR THAT HAD NOT SPENT THE APPROPRIATE FUNDS TO PREVENT THIS HORRID NIGHTMARE! POOR CONTINGENCY PLANNING HAS A DIRECT INVERSE RELATIONSHIP TO SPENDING!
IT'S ALL ABOUT GREED (aka cutting costs, saving money whatever you wish to call it)! Who pushes the cutbacks in regulations and oversight?
9.0 earthquakes don't understand the concept of greed.
How do you efficiently power a large island with a population of 125 million people with limited natural resources?
Sea walls thought to be able to keep out the tidal waves of the tsunami failed not because of greed but for the same reason this disaster started at the power plant: as a result of the quake, the coast sank a few feet. Something no one thought of as a possibility.
I wouldn't chalk this up so quickly to greed.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 05, 2011, 12:54:25 PM
9.0 earthquakes don't understand the concept of greed.
How do you efficiently power a large island with a population of 125 million people with limited natural resources?
Sea walls thought to be able to keep out the tidal waves of the tsunami failed not because of greed but for the same reason this disaster started at the power plant: as a result of the quake, the coast sank a few feet. Something no one thought of as a possibility.
I wouldn't chalk this up so quickly to greed.
One bad reactor spoiled the entire nuclear apple cart? Not so fast? This one plant was overpowered by greed! Greed can come in many forms. This selfish debacle peered out from poor engineering and bottom lines but not long term safety measures.
Prove that "no one thought of as a possibility." That's a great leap. Certainly, there were plenty of design flaws pointed out over the years. When Diablo becomes the next worldly liability will you once again claim that no one thought? That would be the truth.
Get educated! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-19/japan-s-response-to-reactor-crisis-delayed-by-concern-over-asset-damage.html
"Tokyo Electric Power Co. was reluctant to use seawater to cool one of the six reactors at the plant and hesitated because it was concerned about harming its long-term investment in the plant, the Journal cited people involved with the response as saying."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-nuclear-advocates-try-to-limit-political-impact-of-japan-reactor-crisis/2011/03/17/AB6sr0k_story.html While decent people of the world are sending money and assistance to the Japanese people in this time of need, US nuke advocates are huddled with their greedy Congressional lackeys to try to figure out how to spin and obfuscate the issue for enough cover to continue to ram nukes down the throats of a skeptical public.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/01/tepco-recruiting-nuclear-workers-for-up-to-5000-per-day/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/01/tepco-recruiting-nuclear-workers-for-up-to-5000-per-day/)
TEPCO recruiting nuclear workers for up to $5,000 per day
QuoteWhat would you do for $2,500 a day? How about $5,000 a day? Do you have "a passport, a family willing to let you go", and a "willingness to to work in a radioactive zone"? Then you could have what it takes to work at the Fukushima nuclear power plant, and even become a "jumper", a highly paid individual who rushes into a radioactive area, performs a task, and quickly returns to safety before absorbing a dangerous dose of radioactivity.
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 05, 2011, 01:11:59 PM
One bad reactor spoiled the entire nuclear apple cart? Not so fast? This one plant was overpowered by greed! Greed can come in many forms. This selfish debacle peered out from poor engineering and bottom lines but not long term safety measures.
Prove that "no one thought of as a possibility." That's a great leap. Certainly, there were plenty of design flaws pointed out over the years. When Diablo becomes the next worldly liability will you once again claim that no one thought? That would be the truth.
Get educated! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-19/japan-s-response-to-reactor-crisis-delayed-by-concern-over-asset-damage.html
"Tokyo Electric Power Co. was reluctant to use seawater to cool one of the six reactors at the plant and hesitated because it was concerned about harming its long-term investment in the plant, the Journal cited people involved with the response as saying."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-nuclear-advocates-try-to-limit-political-impact-of-japan-reactor-crisis/2011/03/17/AB6sr0k_story.html While decent people of the world are sending money and assistance to the Japanese people in this time of need, US nuke advocates are huddled with their greedy Congressional lackeys to try to figure out how to spin and obfuscate the issue for enough cover to continue to ram nukes down the throats of a skeptical public.
I've said it before and it bears repeating: Man consistently underestimates nature and is over-confident in his ability to overcome nature's wrath. That's not greed. That's just not understanding that the worst he's seen plus a 20% safety margin still can't prepare for the worst that nature can dish out.
Arrogance yes. Penny-pinching, probably.
Penny pinching is greed.
Why is this TEPCO official crying? Meanwhile, it seems TEPCO got the leak (well, one of them anyway) plugged.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/06_10.html
Also, when was the last time Japan apologized to Korea? Because they just did:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_43.html
We do not know anything about tsunamis. We know less about disposal and long term maintenance.
And read this: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/04/05-4
" The largest concentration is the 20 million people who live within 50 miles from the Indian Point two-nuclear plant complex in Buchanan, New York just 28 miles north of the New York City line. A 50-mile evacuation zone for Indian Point would cover all of Manhattan and much of the rest of New York City and Long Island, as well as large portions of Connecticut and New Jersey. The two Indian Point plants have long been troubled, having undergone numerous minor accidents. Moreover, they sit at the intersection of two earthquake faults."
Makes you wonder.
Radiation From Japan's Damaged Nuclear Plant Off the Charts
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2011/2011-04-05-01.html
Dilution by the ocean helps somewhat, but concentration in the food chain hurts us. Overall this is very scary bad news.
Japan will be a desert someday....
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 06, 2011, 01:36:48 PM
Radiation From Japan's Damaged Nuclear Plant Off the Charts
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2011/2011-04-05-01.html
Dilution by the ocean helps somewhat, but concentration in the food chain hurts us. Overall this is very scary bad news.
Japan will be a desert someday....
While I prefer my fish to not glow, it's not as bad as the no nuke alarmists are making it sound:
"The company says the level of iodine-131 in the wastewater is about 100 times the legal limit. But TEPCO says that
if someone were to eat fish and seaweed harvested near the plant every day for a year, that person's radiation exposure would be 0.6 millisieverts. The annual permissible level for the general public is one millisievert."
Of course, this is as long as the company's spokesperson is to be trusted. I wasn't aware I was allowed an millisieverts. Cool that's one more thing I learned today.
Japan really has to use nukes, they have no natural resources, but we in the USA have coal and tons of natural gas, I'd favor doing away with nukes and going to clean burning nat. gas. The problems with nukes is if there is a accident no one gives you a straight answer, and we don't know how serious it is or how minor it is- the radioactivy gets in the food chain and milk, Japan has radioactive sea water over 100 miles out from the coast. Japan is the worlds most Quake & Tsunami ready nation and when put to the real test they came up short, the USA is no where as prepaired as Japan was- and we built nuke plants right on fault lines.
You've omitted solar which has enourmous potential....despite Reagan removing them from the White House. >:(
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/06/6420859-are-we-entering-the-solar-season
Solar Power May Already Rival Coal, Prompting Installation Surge
The Japanese made a huge mistake not developing solar as their main source of power and as another new horizon for an export giant of solar panels and solar cells.
First Solar to build new plant in US.
http://investor.firstsolar.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201491&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1540371&highlight= (http://investor.firstsolar.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201491&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1540371&highlight=)
Oh brother!
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFN0624341220110406
UPDATE 2-US officials doubted nuclear safety plans-watchdog
Wed Apr 6, 2011 10:28pm GMT Print | Single Page [-] Text
* Internal e-mails showed doubts, watchdog group says
* Doubts contrast with regulators' public confidence-UCS
* NRC officials say UCS misinterprets documents (Rewrites with Nuclear Regulatory Commission response)
By Scott Malone
BOSTON, April 6 (Reuters) - A private U.S. nuclear safety group disclosed a batch of internal emails from the nation's Nuclear Regulatory Commission that it said undercuts officials' recent assertions that U.S. nuclear reactors are prepared for a Fukushima-scale disaster.
But NRC officials disputed the Union of Concerned Scientists' analysis, contending it misunderstood an internal evaluation of nuclear plant safety that started before Japan's nuclear crisis began on March 11.
"While the NRC and the nuclear industry have been reassuring Americans that there is nothing to worry about ... it turns out that privately NRC senior analysts are not so sure," said Edwin Lyman, a UCS nuclear expert.
A spokesman for the U.S. nuclear regulatory body said the UCS misinterpreted a discussion between two departments within the agency, one conducting the NRC's State of the Art Reactor Consequence Analysis of how nuclear plants would respond to accidents, called SOARCA, and the way its senior risk analysts assess plant safety.
The latter group conducts detailed statistical analysis of how plants might respond to crises, while the former only aims to determine what would happen if those responses succeed or fail, NRC spokesman Scott Burnell said.
Isn't something like 20% or more of the whole country unusable for the next 35 to 100 years.....Imagine That........
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 11, 2011, 04:59:40 PM
Isn't something like 20% or more of the whole country unusable for the next 35 to 100 years.....Imagine That........
No.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/12_05.html
The Japanese are going to rate this the worst...7. How much has actually been released no honest person yet knows.
This perfect disaster does not have a solution....it should be a 10
Seemingly, mankind goes from disaster to disaster to disaster. Never ending and accelerating with significantly bigger consequences. One thing about nuclear accidents is that you can't smell the bullsh!t.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703841904576256742249147126.html
Meanwhile, Americans are more concerned about abortion. Bad irony.
Fukushima radiation taints US milk supplies at levels 300% higher than EPA maximums
http://www.naturalnews.com/032048_radiation_milk.html
And the daily Ohbummer:
"While Lovera is concerned that agencies like the FDA don't have the resources to provide enough information, Hirsch sees a potential conflict of interest. He is concerned that the US government may be downplaying the dangers of radiation from the Daiichi plant to avoid undermining support for new nuclear projects in the US. He pointed out that the Obama administration has affirmed its commitment to building more nuclear reactors in the US and has urged Congress to approve $54 billion in subsidized loans for new reactors."
http://www.truth-out.org/radiation-detected-milk-air-and-water-america-safe
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 12, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
Fukushima radiation taints US milk supplies at levels 300% higher than EPA maximums
http://www.naturalnews.com/032048_radiation_milk.html
And the daily Ohbummer:
"While Lovera is concerned that agencies like the FDA don't have the resources to provide enough information, Hirsch sees a potential conflict of interest. He is concerned that the US government may be downplaying the dangers of radiation from the Daiichi plant to avoid undermining support for new nuclear projects in the US. He pointed out that the Obama administration has affirmed its commitment to building more nuclear reactors in the US and has urged Congress to approve $54 billion in subsidized loans for new reactors."
http://www.truth-out.org/radiation-detected-milk-air-and-water-america-safe
The biggest problem is the ability of the douchebag media to make such things sound alarming.
You certainly shouldn't eat any bananas. They contains 3,520 pCi/kg of radioactive potassium, about a thousand times more than milk (after you convert from pCi/l to pCi/kg).
. . .and stay away from potatoes, carrots, nuts and beans, because they are off the charts. Surprised I don't glow!
. . .and if you live somewhere on Earth you are really in trouble!
I want just enough radiation so that I can be like Chevy Chase in "Modern Problems"
Aw, but the serious minds need to know this!
A non controllable situation without containment.
What were the qualifications of this "expert"?
You are aware he's simply a university employee who is spouting his opinion, right?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 13, 2011, 11:36:37 AM
What were the qualifications of this "expert"?
You are aware he's simply a university employee who is spouting his opinion, right?
He's a historian that wrote a book.
Did he write the book while staying at a Holiday Inn Express?
Robert Jacobs
http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/English/cgaiyo/kenkyuin14.htm (http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/English/cgaiyo/kenkyuin14.htm)
Quote from: dbacks fan on April 12, 2011, 05:38:49 PM
I want just enough radiation so that I can be like Chevy Chase in "Modern Problems"
That is what movie that is always coming to mind but I can't remember what it is. I"ll have to find it again.
Fuckushima has been releasing 154 terabecquerels per day: 154 Times more than previously Stated
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20110424dy04.htm
the kicker is the original title: Atmospheric radiation leak underestimated ..."underestimated" !? or flat our lied?
I wonder what the real number is? It would seem that the first casualty in any nuclear mishap is the truth.
The evolution of this thread tells the story as it unfolded unraveled became the worst accident on Earth. Now, Godzilla approaches....wait and see.
To their credit, the Japanese Government has cancelled plans for 15 more reactors and scrapped the idea of generating half of it's energy from nukes in the future. And if that redirects their R&D into green energy systems, we will be left in the dust.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2011/05/fukushima-update-may-11.html
"The big mess at the Fukushima Daiichi plant continues as the damaged reactors there are still releasing radioactive substances into the environment. A new leak through a cable shaft and to the cooling water intake of the no 3 reactor to the sea was found only today."
Bad news for energy prices, good news for the oil companies.
TeaTown,
You missed that bus over the last 30 years. Alternative energy is already viable and in place in many other places in the world.
Solar has gone from well over $100 per watt to about a buck and a half per watt for cells. Wind has had the same development. Hence the fact that Germany already generates over 12% of their electricity from wind. And close to the same from solar.
Another couple of industries with good, high paying jobs that we missed out on. QUALITY automobiles is another.
But we do make the towers up there on the north side of town.
Heir, I didn't miss jack.
I've been on this bull for sometime....watch!
SCARY STUFF....unabated . >:(
What with all of the lying and obfuscations by TEPCO and collaborating world governments, it's starting to look like there must be no "cohesive" long term solution available. Rather chilling, no? Nukes are bad Ju-Ju.
Seems that your source may not have all the credentials he claims.......
http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2011/02/arnie-gundersen-has-inflated-his-resume.html (http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2011/02/arnie-gundersen-has-inflated-his-resume.html)
Keep humping the nukes, dbeck....
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 14, 2011, 11:59:23 AM
Keep humping the nukes, dbeck....
He points out that your source may not be what he claims to be, and your response is a personal attack. Nice
Quote from: custosnox on May 14, 2011, 03:01:36 PM
He points out that your source may not be what he claims to be, and your response is a personal attack. Nice
He's just the left wing version of Gweed. Always has been.
Quote from: Hoss on May 14, 2011, 03:41:13 PM
He's just the left wing version of Gweed. Always has been.
Just had to make a comment on it. Just gets me when some seem to think that is how to "win" discussions like this
Japan abandons plans to add new reactors, will focus on renewables:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/11/japan-nuclear-power-expansion-plans-abandoned?intcmp=122
They've been lying all along. Whatever they tell the world, be assured that the situation is worse.
TEPCO Admits Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Reactor Unit 1 'In State of Meltdown', Fuel Rods Exposed
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8520
OPS: "...a meltdown occurred...." BS! The meltdown IS OCCURRING! it's no where near past tense
So, who here can explain the eventual outcome at Fuckushima?
Next they will probably raise the "allowable' dose of radiation a person can get. Then, we will see the Nuke industries in other countries quietly raise THEIR 'allowable' limits too.
Japan left with no choice but to widen nuke evacuation zone
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/japan-widens-nuke-evacuation-zone-but-unlikely-to-punish-those-who-stay/story-e6frf7lf-1226056432864
Without knowing what is really going on we cannot estimate the potential danger to the US and other countries.
America's New Nuke Showdown Starts Now!
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/05/16-3
"As Fukushima continues to leak and smolder, what may be the definitive battle over new nukes in America has begun.
The critical first US House vote on a proposed $36 billion loan guarantee package for reactor construction may come as early as June 2. Green power advocates are already calling and writing the White House and Congress early and often, gearing up for a long, definitive showdown."
This timely thread unfolded rather nicely thanks to the sad affair in Japan. WSJ even had a story this morning on the need to reevaluate all the systems necessary to stop a catastrophe.
Spent fuel rods. Bad locations. $36 Billion....throwing good money after bad.
If it weren't for the retarded greens (can I say that?) we'd have a place to put the waste. Instead, the morons have destined us to continue storing it on site. Not awful, but worse than the alternative of putting it in a paid for cave. This is one of the many things I disagree strenuously with Obama on, and one of the reasons I wish Harry Reid had been thrown out of the party years ago.
Democrats are stupid..they're just less stupid than Republicans. ;)
Yes, Nevada deserves those radiation storage caves.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 18, 2011, 12:10:04 AM
Yes, Nevada deserves those radiation storage caves.
I'd be happy to have them in Oklahoma. Maybe we could put them under one of the "mountains" in south Tulsa. Or under my house. Put a few thousand feet between me and the casks and I quite honestly don't give a smile. Nuclear waste isn't magic. As long as it's immobilized so it can't be absorbed into the body, it's pretty much harmless. That's why the plan was to vitrify it.
Take the concept of the half-life as one example. By virtue of having a long half-life, a substance is radiologically pretty much irrelevant to humans barring its ingestion. Substances with short half lives are, on the other hand, generally quite dangerous as they emit lots of radiation in a given period of time.
Quote from: nathanm on May 17, 2011, 11:48:33 PM
Democrats are stupid..they're just less stupid than Republicans. ;)
Cherry picking your examples again I see.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 18, 2011, 08:46:09 AM
Cherry picking your examples again I see.
On the nuclear issue, Republicans are in general much less stupid than Democrats. On so many other things they've gone off the freakin' rails it's sad. I'd quite honestly like to have a choice, but when the Republicans are in favor of trampling the Constitution and otherwise screwing me, I might as well pick the Republican-lites who will at least use a little lube while shoving the crap down my throat.
Unfortunately, the Tea Partiers are even worse than the mainstream Republicans, what with a few prominent "members" advocating only allowing land owners the vote.
We desperately need vote reform in this country, whether it be with instant runoff or preference voting or one of the several other similar systems that don't end up locking out third parties. It would be good for pretty much everybody but the establishment Republicans and Democrats...and the business interests that donate heavily to both of them so as to make sure their position is represented no matter who is in power.
You do know Chernobyl is still smoldering and will be forever. And Fuckishima could become a whirlpool of radiation that makes burying rods in Turkey Mountain a kin to summer nights inhaling refinery emissions.
Glad you feel safe choosing to pollute Mother Earth for the next 4000 generations....given we as humans make it past this current era.
But I do see your point.
Quote from: Teatownclown on May 18, 2011, 10:06:40 AM
Glad you feel safe choosing to pollute Mother Earth for the next 4000 generations....given we as humans make it past this current era.
I'd feel better if we stopped using 1950s-era nuclear technology.
Quote from: nathanm on May 18, 2011, 09:53:10 AM
On so many other things they've gone off the freakin' rails it's sad. I'd quite honestly like to have a choice, ...
I am not overly thrilled with many of the Republican offerings either. I am even less thrilled with the Democatic Party offerings.
The way folks complain about candidates winning an election with less than 50% of the popular vote, I don't see a system with a plurality among many candidates ever gaining acceptance in the US without a run-off election to get a majority.
In Japan Reactor Failings, Danger Signs for the U.S
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2
Yep Nate.....50's technology...we've been lucky so far....luck don't last.
Losing 50s technology would mean going to fusion rather than fission.
But that would mean way too much energy at way too low a cost to continue the price/power ratios we have today.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 18, 2011, 01:31:34 PM
Losing 50s technology would mean going to fusion rather than fission.
But that would mean way too much energy at way too low a cost to continue the price/power ratios we have today.
I believe fusion would still require a massive dose of research time & money to make a sustainable, controllable reaction suitable for power generation (as compared to a bomb).
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 18, 2011, 01:31:34 PM
Losing 50s technology would mean going to fusion rather than fission.
But that would mean way too much energy at way too low a cost to continue the price/power ratios we have today.
No there are other options:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
Please note I didn't want to use wikipedia but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the Magazine I read about it first.
Red,
And yet we continue to subsidize fission to the tune of many billions while "researching" fusion to the tune of many millions.
To paraphrase AT & T commercial; Makes all the sense in the world, if you don't think about it.
And like so many other industries mentioned previously, like solar and wind, we have engaged in our "protection of the existing industries" while others in the world move forward. ITER is being built. In France. With our nominal participation, to be sure, but WITHOUT serious contribution on our behalf.
Again, it just "doesn't make economic sense" ---- to let cheap abundant power become a reality. I can just hear the moaning, gnashing of teeth, and wringing of hands from the captains of industry if such a thing were to become available. While China will watch in the background and as soon as practical, will embrace, enhance, implement and benefit from the work we so casually participate in.
Philo (inventor of electronic TV) did some serious work in 1927 with this stuff. Would anyone seriously advance the notion that in 90 years, with the advancements we have made in every other topic that we have been serious about, we could not be further along?? Yeah...riiiggghhhhttttttt!!!!!!
Wiki is your friend; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 18, 2011, 01:43:33 PM
I believe fusion would still require a massive dose of research time & money to make a sustainable, controllable reaction suitable for power generation (as compared to a bomb).
The DOE has finally managed to hit breakeven in one of their research reactors. Now they just have to figure out how to get the heat into water or something to make steam and make it more commercial and less mad scientist. If we had made this a funding priority over the last 20 years, early fusion reactors would probably be online today.
Sort of like how if we hadn't canceled the SSC we probably would have found the Higgs boson by now.
This is worth 10 mins. Then you'll hope that other clown is correct about the world ending Saturday.
Citing a pediatrician on nukes? Really?
She appears to have a bad habit of blaming everything on radiation including children being born naked.
No one seems to have any sort of credible account of how many have died as a result of Chernobyl. Why is it information like this only seems to appear on fringe news sites and not MSM?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2011, 08:44:25 AM
No one seems to have any sort of credible account of how many have died as a result of Chernobyl. Why is it information like this only seems to appear on fringe news sites and not MSM?
Not enough dead people?
Quote from: godboko71 on May 18, 2011, 02:28:08 PM
No there are other options:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
Please note I didn't want to use wikipedia but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the Magazine I read about it first.
For every design that has come down the pike, there has been claims about how "THIS" one will solve all the problems. Until the main problem is found.
Estimates for Chernobyl deaths range from 47 to 985,000. Wonder which number is desperately promoted by the powers that be?? The ones supporting many more nukes maybe??
All that completely misses the main issues - first the FACT that uranium is very much running out. It IS a scarce resource and becoming more so. The artificial low prices of recent years are due to disassembly of Russian nuke bombs. When that runs out, so does the cheap uranium...oops! Already there!
I dunno why we can't expand the use of natural gas, we have something like almost 3 TRILLION cubic feet of natural gas and we have started to export some of it at long last. We have natural gas up the wazoo. Let's have cars that run on gasoline & natural gas. Nuke power has too many drawbacks Uranium is hard to find, nuke waste is a major problem plus the risk of some accident. We can use clean buring cheap natural gas.
Quote from: sauerkraut on May 24, 2011, 01:14:03 PM
I dunno why we can't expand the use of natural gas, we have something like almost 3 TRILLION cubic feet of natural gas and we have started to export some of it at long last. We have natural gas up the wazoo. Let's have cars that run on gasoline & natural gas. Nuke power has too many drawbacks Uranium is hard to find, nuke waste is a major problem plus the risk of some accident. We can use clean buring cheap natural gas.
+1
Here's your answer:
As long as the exploitation of any energy source is tied to profit, it will not be looked upon favorably by liberals.
And then ya gotta ask why subsidize all those 'profitable' enterprises with our tax money??
Nukes, oil, natural gas, ethanol....
Fusion would provide the profit and would also give plentiful (infinite in our frame of reference), clean, non-polluting electricity at reasonable rates. Unless you count pure water as a pollutant....
Tepco Says Fuel Rods Melted Down in Two More Reactors at Fukushima Plant
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-24/tepco-confirms-meltdown-of-no-2-3-reactors-at-fukushima-1-.html
Matching worse-case scenarios....so much for those TNF posties pushing nukes. Run aways?
Quote from: Gaspar on May 24, 2011, 01:27:55 PM
As long as the exploitation of any energy source is tied to profit, it will not be looked upon favorably by liberals.
That is pure idiotic. There are many powerful liberals in this town and this state who have made their living in the energy field.
Why do you feel compelled to continually define others? Why must every thread turn into you making stupid statements about liberals?
Don't become Glenn Beck.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 24, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
Don't become Glenn Beck.
I think it's too late for that...
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 24, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
That is pure idiotic. There are many powerful liberals in this town and this state who have made their living in the energy field.
Why do you feel compelled to continually define others? Why must every thread turn into you making stupid statements about liberals?
Don't become Glenn Beck.
Do you perceive any problems with increased natural gas production, exploration or useage in Oklahoma?
Only from a complete destruction of the water aquifer system, but other than that, no problem at all. (Anyone who has not heard of shale extraction problems has been actively avoiding knowing - head in the sand approach.)
Leaving any kind of environmental consideration OUT of it, you gotta ask yourself WHY isn't there more drilling and production already?? They have the leases. They have the permits. They have the proven reserves. Why is only 25% of the available, accessible resource being produced already?
You keep talking to the wrong points. The point IS there is nothing stopping them now. So why hasn't it happened?? Why isn't the effort being made to increase production so prices at the pump can come down?? It is a simple question - why is it there is never an answer?? But then I just answered it didn't I, with that one tiny little phrase - "so prices at the pump can come down". Have been on the inside and seen it in action.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 25, 2011, 07:42:40 AM
Only from a complete destruction of the water aquifer system, but other than that, no problem at all.
Leaving any kind of environmental consideration OUT of it, you gotta ask yourself WHY isn't there more drilling and production already?? They have the leases. They have the permits. They have the proven reserves. Why is only 25% of the available, accessible resource being produced already?
You keep talking to the wrong points. The point IS there is nothing stopping them now. So why hasn't it happened?? It is a simple question - why is it there is never an answer??
Because they'd rather make it a talking point than a solution?
Pretty much. But sit back and watch...no one will actually answer, but the is a high likelihood of diatribe going off on another direction, tying Obama (or whichever target du'jour) to the collapse of the oil industry in the United States.
To the generic "You" of the cosmos;
Are you kidding me?? Are you so seriously deranged to believe that the people who run the show are gonna do anything to consciously hurt their own self interest?? They are NOT voters - they buy the lawmakers - so they won't ever vote against themselves. Like so many of us do.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 25, 2011, 07:28:12 AM
Do you perceive any problems with increased natural gas production, exploration or useage in Oklahoma?
It depends how it is done. They have made real progress in low impact drilling which I believe makes a big difference.
Do you have a problem with reasonable measures to protect the environment?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 25, 2011, 09:19:55 AM
Do you have a problem with reasonable measures to protect the environment?
The problem is with defining "reasonable measures". I don't know of anyone who wants to intentionally trash the environment.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 25, 2011, 09:35:45 AM
The problem is with defining "reasonable measures". I don't know of anyone who wants to intentionally trash the environment.
No, but there's mounting evidence that some drilling companies and producers consider protecting the environment a nuisance and paying fines just a cost of doing business.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 24, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
That is pure idiotic. There are many powerful liberals in this town and this state who have made their living in the energy field.
Many of the liberals in this town and state would have been considered Republicans/conservatives in many states in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Now they'd sooner die than wear that label. It used to be if you wanted any say in local or state politics in Oklahoma, you had to be a registered Democrat. Kind of the opposite of now.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 25, 2011, 09:37:47 AM
No, but there's mounting evidence that some drilling companies and producers consider protecting the environment a nuisance and paying fines just a cost of doing business.
Not on the same level of course but we all do the same. We drive our automobiles which have been proven to harm the environment. We continue to use electricity which cannot be generated without disturbing the environment to some degree. The price of energy is just the cost of convenience.
Maple Syrup Reactors Safe, Canadian Prime Minister Reassures
OTTAWA—Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper addressed growing public concerns about the safety of his country's maple syrup reactors Thursday, reassuring citizens that the sucrose fission facilities posed little risk of failure and there was absolutely no reason to be concerned.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/maple-syrup-reactors-safe-canadian-prime-minister,20511/?utm_source=recentnews (http://www.theonion.com/articles/maple-syrup-reactors-safe-canadian-prime-minister,20511/?utm_source=recentnews)
(http://o.onionstatic.com/images/articles/article/20511/Maple_Syrup_Reactors_R_jpg_600x1000_q85.jpg)
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 25, 2011, 09:19:55 AM
It depends how it is done. They have made real progress in low impact drilling which I believe makes a big difference.
Do you have a problem with reasonable measures to protect the environment?
Nope! I have interests in a natural gas operation in Texas. It's on the only family farm. You wouldn't know it was there unless you tripped over it.
What would be the measures you find reasonable?
Requiring a liner down to the protection zone so that gas and salt water cannot work their way up to the fresh water zone. This is an industry getting Lexus prices for a product with a soap box derby investment. Yeah, we are talking billions in investment. And hundreds of billions in profits. Would that be an unwarranted government intrusion?
Or for the pipeline side - requiring mandatory inspection of all plastic natural gas pipe welds before they are buried in the ground. These are welds on plastic pipe where the ends of the two pipes are melted and then smushed together. Vast majority are good - at a rate approaching 100%. But it only takes one for the conflagration. And if there is a little gust of wind to blow up some sand/dirt, or the heat isn't "just right", voids and inclusions and through holes are not just possible, but inevitable. And when the pipe is then buried, there is a leak, gas builds up, and boom! Big hole in the ground. Cutting out a weld to redo takes a couple of minutes. Literally. To save an explosion. Another unwarranted government intrusion??
Steel pipelines? Require mandatory inline inspections for corrosion in all pipelines - twice a year. The big whine here is that so many pipelines were built that cannot be pigged. BS! Pipelines have been specifically designed to be piggable for decades. So any that are not piggable ARE so old that they should be replaced anyway. They are the ones you hear about blowing up from time to time.
Just a couple of suggestions...
Fukushima's No. 5 Nuclear Reactor Cooling Facility Stops
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/28/fukushima-no-5-nuclear-reactor-cooling-facility_n_868528.html
New Alert For Fukushima in Japan Due to Typhoon Songda
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1105/S00718/new-alert-for-fukushima-in-japan-due-to-typhoon-songda.htm
the messy part of human evolution....
Another data point, re: nuclear power: apparently in reaction to the Fukushima meltdown, Germany has decided to go completely nuke free by 2022. (http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/30/germany.nuclear.plants/index.html?hpt=T2)
Quote"The decision looks like this," Roettgen said. "Seven older nuclear power plants ... and the nuclear plant Kruemmel will not go back online ... a second group of six nuclear reactors will go offline at the end of 2021 at the latest, and ... the three most modern, newest nuclear plants will go offline in 2022 at the latest."
To make up for the loss of nuclear energy, the German government will begin to switch to renewable energy and increase investments in energy research, the government website says.
"But we will not be able to do without conventional power plants, above all cutting-edge gas power plants for a long time," said a statement published last week. "New fruits of new research should contribute to making the energy transition more efficient and easier on the ecology."
Interesting strategy. Reliance on fossil fuels (primarily natural gas) in the short- and medium- term, and then total reliance on renewables from 2022 onwards. Even if the goal sprawls by a couple of years -- hell, even five years -- I'd say that's a pretty aggressive timeline to go completely green. It also relies on tech that hasn't been fully developed yet.
Ballsy stuff, really. I wish they'd included a cost estimate in the article. I'd like to know what they're paying for that sort of transition.
Quote from: we vs us on May 30, 2011, 08:43:44 AM
...and then total reliance on renewables from 2022 onwards.
I only read that they will be nuke free by 2022, not totally renewable by 2022.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 30, 2011, 09:35:39 AM
I only read that they will be nuke free by 2022, not totally renewable by 2022.
You're right, I think I was jumbling my facts with some of the different articles I've read (this one, (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-30-germany-nuclear-power_n.htm) for instance, says they will replace their
nuclear segment with renewables, not ALL of their energy.)
That lessens the awesome quotient, but not completely. For one of the world's largest economies, it's still a major achievement.
Quote from: we vs us on May 30, 2011, 10:13:22 AM
That lessens the awesome quotient, but not completely. For one of the world's largest economies, it's still a major achievement goal.
They haven't done it yet. I agree, a good goal.
A major obstacle to wind and solar is matching power demand to power availability. A method of temporary storage will be required for these to be as reliable as fossil fueled plants are now. I hope that is receiving as much or more attention as building windmills.
Not sure where that report started, but there is no such thing in Germany as "begin to switch to renewable energy". It is NOT a "goal". It IS a work in progress! Nearing completion - they are MUCH closer to the goal than the distance already covered.
Because they have already been at it for quite a few years. And they are already nearing 25% for combined solar and wind power. With targets of 15% each (30% total) for 2015. And they are ahead of schedule for that plan. As has been discussed here before, by the way.
Considering all the things the German economy has been through in the last 20 years or so, you gotta admire what they got going on! Absorbing the East German economy. Staying as strong as they are across the board. And workers getting 6 weeks of vacation to boot!
That one thing (vacation) puts the lie to everything in that bill of goods we have been sold about not being able to function as an economy, let alone be competitive, if there is decent vacation for all here.
Germany to be "Trailblazer" in renewable energy........
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13597627 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13597627)
I was working from home this morning when I heard this on BBC America.
They are dramatically expanding their goals. BHAGS galore!! Big Hairy Audacious Goals! The only kind worth having!!
They are doing the "land a man on the moon in this decade" thing.
Why aren't we??
By the way;
BHAGs; I like Microsoft's - "A computer on every desk and in every home." Too bad they set their sights so low...how about two or three on every desk and in every home. Well they only missed it by a factor of 3 or 4. Still....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2011, 07:27:00 PM
And workers getting 6 weeks of vacation to boot!
I need to send this to my engineer friend in Aalen. He would be surprised. He has his own business and the last I heard he would love to get 6 weeks vacation a year.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2011, 07:27:00 PM
With targets of 15% each (30% total) for 2015. And they are ahead of schedule for that plan. As has been discussed here before, by the way.
30% total renewable. Nice but nowhere near totally renewable. If they aren't there yet, it is still a goal. Quite possibly one they will achieve but not done yet.
Here is a better article from der spiegel including comment from members of the politcal parties as well. It sounds as if this is not something new but something they have been working for some time.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,765681,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,765681,00.html)
Their stated goal for over a decade HAS been 30%. They are almost there now. It is great that they are going to expand.
HUGE goal!! BHAG!!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2011, 08:50:14 PM
They are almost there now.
Almost: Horseshoes, hand grenades, and atomic bombs.
Still, getting close is quite an accomplishment.
5% is quibbling. And there are 3 more years to accomplish. But they are saying it will be end of 2012, if nothing changes current pace. More than just quite an accomplishment - it shows the results possible when one is focused, has a plan and works it impeccably. Kind of like what we did in the 60's and 70's with the space race - that whole "going to the moon" thing! But we lost our way and our will to do the big things. Turned to the dark side of redistribution of wealth (from everyone to the rich). Decided that celebration of the rich was more important than actual accomplishments.
Why aren't we doing the same thing??
Guess I would have to ask Reagan why he took the solar cells off the White House, huh? And worked so hard to destroy that whole industry in this country! Another lost economic opportunity!
Government mandated physics. Reminds me of the cars of the 70s. What a POS they were. They met the government mandated regulations though. Caused a bit of acid rain in the process. Used gobs of fuel. Often had bad drivability regarding engine response.
Research is good. A bit of a push on industry is good. Forcing a product into production ahead of its time often has unintended consequences.
And every single one of those "70's" regulations led to things like;
Electronic ignition.
Platinum spark plugs.
Extended oil change intervals.
Increased mileage.
Increased durability.
Dual overhead cams - huge horsepower in tiny cubes.
Better paint.
Better metal (galvanized.)
What we lost was some of the regulation about fuel mileage and damage control; like the 5 mph bumpers. Backsliding.
Not to mention the increased economic activity, new technology, and stimulus to the economy far beyond the cost of any regulation.
Too bad we have lost our will for that kind of thing; progress and development.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2011, 10:15:31 PM
And every single one of those "70's" regulations led to things like;
Electronic ignition.
Platinum spark plugs.
Extended oil change intervals.
Increased mileage.
Increased durability.
Dual overhead cams - huge horsepower in tiny cubes.
Better paint.
Better metal (galvanized.)
What we lost was some of the regulation about fuel mileage and damage control; like the 5 mph bumpers. Backsliding.
Not to mention the increased economic activity, new technology, and stimulus to the economy far beyond the cost of any regulation.
Too bad we have lost our will for that kind of thing; progress and development.
There is always time to fix things but never the time to do it right the first time.
Expert Cautions that 30 Million Spent Nuclear Fuel Rods Are Unsafely Stored in United States, Could Cause Fukushima-like Disaster
http://www.pogo.org/pogo-files/alerts/nuclear-security-safety/nss-np-20110524.html
http://kmareka.com/2011/06/16/radiation-hotspots/
"Pregnant women and children are being evacuated from radiation hotspots far from the 20km radius around the crippled Fuckushima nuclear plants. Radiation does not spread in circles, it does not go away, it will continue to be a hazard long after we are dead and gone."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8585961/Two-million-Fukushima-residents-to-undergo-radiation-health-checks.html
Check back in ten thousand years.
Added flood protection at Nebraska nuclear plant fails
Officials remain confident plant can sustain flood's onslaught
http://iowaindependent.com/57788/added-flood-protection-at-nebraska-nuclear-plant-fails
prove it....abysmal engineering
WOW! YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE!
Ummm...30,000 55-gallon drums of radioactive waste are just sitting out in the open?? Am I the only one who finds this rather disturbing?
Los Alamos nuclear lab under siege from wildfire
http://news.yahoo.com/los-alamos-nuclear-lab-under-siege-wildfire-221015279.html
"A wildfire burning near the desert birthplace of the atomic bomb advanced on the Los Alamos laboratory and thousands of outdoor drums of plutonium-contaminated waste Tuesday as authorities stepped up efforts to protect the site and monitor the air for radiation. The fire has forced the evacuation of the entire city of Los Alamos, population 11,000, cast giant plumes of smoke over the region and raised fears among nuclear watchdogs that it will reach as many as 30,000 55-gallon drums of plutonium-contaminated waste. "We'll pre-treat with foam if necessary, but we really want the buildings to stand on their own for the most part. That is exactly how they've been designed. Especially the ones holding anything that is of high value or high risk," said Deputy Los Alamos County Fire Chief Mike Thompson." Bravado. Mocho. Bullsh!t.
You are such a fearmongerer aren't you. I wouldn't be suprised if you had two blackeyes from your knee jerk reactions.
By the way, don't forget that the water you are drinking and showering in comes from the lakes and streams north east of Tulsa, and has run through Picher and Cardin as well as Grand Lake on it's way to Tulsa. So every morning when you wash your body, and brush your teeth, thats where the water came from.
By the way, don't forget about all of the 'fracked' gas and oil wells in NE Oklahoma that date back 60 plus years, so you got that going for you as well.
Quote from: dbacks fan on July 18, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
By the way, don't forget that the water you are drinking and showering in comes from the lakes and streams north east of Tulsa, and has run through Picher and Cardin as well as Grand Lake on it's way to Tulsa. So every morning when you wash your body, and brush your teeth, thats where the water came from.
Sounds like you are making his point for him....does any of that bother you at some level?
Looking at increases of various environmentally related diseases/damages/sydromes, it kind of makes sense to be very concerned about that stuff. Not to the point of paralysis, but certainly more than is currently apparent.
Yeah, in the past, many died of other diseases. But that makes the argument that since we eliminate one way to die, it's ok to substitute another. I guess if I were all that concerned about over population, it would be ok to keep the higher death rates, but Mama Nature seems to have a way of making adjustments she wants, so it will all work out in the end. My personal preference is to put off dying as long as possible. As well as any or all of the chronic diseases that so often accompany long life. Whether natural or societal inflicted.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on July 18, 2011, 10:05:46 AM
Yeah, in the past, many died of other diseases. But that makes the argument that since we eliminate one way to die, it's ok to substitute another.
Until somewhat recently (a generation or two?) people generally didn't live long enough to die of today's killers.
DB, you must be on your cycle....
Red,
Exactly my point.
Lot's of people did live long lives, but certainly not the majority. And of those old ones, it was self inflicted items that killed them off a lot of the time. 80 and 90 year old people; smoking, excess drinking, jealous husbands...
But now we have added these new killers, effectively "doing it to ourselves". The life expectancy in this country actually dropped last year. What is wrong with THAT picture?!
I just enjoy looking back into threads to see the vast majority of intellectual pretenders on TNF! They just seem to hate reality, refuse to tolerate different ideas, and constantly follow the lies coming out of Murdoch, Koch, and GOP leadership. It's hard to think for yourself with so much man made turbulence.
Japan's Food-Chain Threat Multiplies as Fukushima Radiation Spreads
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-24/threat-to-japanese-food-chain-multiplies-as-cesium-contamination-spreads.html
"Radiation fallout from the wrecked Fukushima nuclear plant poses a growing threat to Japan's food chain as unsafe levels of cesium found in beef on supermarket shelves were also detected in more vegetables and the ocean."
wwjd?
What Would Jerry (Springer) Do?
Funny how this dropped of the Media Radar, eh?
Tepco Says Highest Radiation Yet Is Detected at Fukushima Dai-Ichi
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-01/tepco-says-highest-radiation-yet-is-detected-at-fukushima-dai-ichi.html
"Geiger counters, used to detect radioactivity, registered more than 10 sieverts an hour, "the highest reading the devices are able to record..."
So we don't really know what the levels are, except that they are off-scale.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 03, 2011, 05:57:53 PM
Funny how this dropped of the Media Radar, eh?
I saw that on the MSNBC site either yesterday or Monday. I was waiting for you to post something about it.
I quit getting my talking points from MSM....missed it. Why did you with holed ????
You think the heat is brutal? Want to rethink the support for nuclear power?
Japan's Fukushima catastrophe brings big radiation spikes to B.C.
http://www.straight.com/article-415211/vancouver/fukushima-brings-big-radiation-spikes-bc
"he said radiation from Fukushima will lead to higher rates of cancer and other diseases among Canadians. But don't panic. Edwards cautioned that the risk is very small for any particular individual."
"It should be a warning to Canada, the U.S., and the rest of the world about the vulnerability of nuclear power plants to natural catastrophes. These things have typically been dismissed in much of the planning."
"With 450,000 people homeless, fallout across much of Japan, and a damages bill estimated at $300 billion, Fukushima is the "biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind", said U.S. nuclear-industry whistle blower Arnold Gundersen in a June 10 Al Jazeera story."
"Japan's prime minister, Naoto Kan, said in July that decommissioning the plant would take "several decades".
I've picked out some of the interesting comments. But read this story to get the fair treatment of the potential danger. Nobody knows...
Tornados are a sign God hates mobile homes. Earthquakes are a sign God hates nuclear energy.
You know the only real reason for this thread is it gives TTAC a chance to say Fukushima and holed up, without getting hammered by the mods.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 05, 2011, 10:07:37 AM
Tornados are a sign God hates mobile homes and airports. Earthquakes are a sign God hates nuclear energy.
You missed an important one.
Two interesting tid bits:
1) Radiation Threat Rattles Japan's Food Chain
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904772304576466641695180326.html
MINAMISOMA, Japan—Within days of the disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, Japanese food inspectors were spot-checking meat from the region's slaughtered cattle for radioactive contamination. Officials later fanned out to farms near the crippled plant to pass Geiger counters over the animals to determine whether they were safe to sell.
2) A slew of new nuclear plants overseas spell strong business for U.S. firms
over the next two decades. Despite safety fears after Japan's nuclear crisis
that have led some European nations to sour on atomic power, other countries
are forging ahead with plans to expand existing reactors or build new ones.
By 2030, as many as 25 nations will be producing nuclear power,
driven by the need to propel fast-growing economies. Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Turkey
and others are already planning plants. Plus China and India have ambitious goals
for expanding facilities. China is eyeing 100 gigawatts of new capacity by 2050.
The U.S. nuclear industry is well positioned to cash in on the build-out.
Many aspiring nuclear powers can't fabricate all of the thousands of complex parts
needed in new plants. U.S. safety and regulatory expertise will be in high demand, too.
From Kipplinger
Kinda scary?
Keeps getting worse....wow.
Fukushima caesium leaks 'equal 168 Hiroshimas'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8722400/Fukushima-caesium-leaks-equal-168-Hiroshimas.html
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 26, 2011, 10:50:44 AM
Keeps getting worse....wow.
Fukushima caesium leaks 'equal 168 Hiroshimas'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8722400/Fukushima-caesium-leaks-equal-168-Hiroshimas.html
Isn't it Cesium?
Either is correct.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium
" Although the element is only mildly toxic, it is a hazardous material as a metal and its radioisotopes present a high health risk in case of radiation leaks."
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 05, 2011, 12:02:52 AM
"It should be a warning to Canada, the U.S., and the rest of the world about the vulnerability of nuclear power plants to natural catastrophes. These things have typically been dismissed in much of the planning."
"Japan's prime minister, Naoto Kan, said in July that decommissioning the plant would take "several decades".
I have a close family friend working in the industry of nuke de-commissioning. Has worked at Hanford, WA, (contaminated many decades ago), as well as California and Alaska. Both 30 years-ish old. Yeah, this crap is with us as major expense for a long, long time. And no, the companies who built, operated, and profited from this are not involved in paying for the cleanup. It is on Uncle Sugar's dime - that's you and me, folks. (Except Hanford - that was all gubmint.)
So...where is the government support and subsidy for fusion reactors?? Oh, yeah...another lost future economic opportunity pioneered/engineered by us and now being developed by Europe. How clever of us....
Fukushima Is Continually Blasting All Of Us With High Levels Of Cesium, Strontium And Plutonium And Will Slowly Kill Millions For Years To Come
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/fukushima-is-continually-blasting-all-of-us-with-high-levels-of-cesium-strontium-and-plutonium-and-will-slowly-kill-millions-for-years-to-come
"By way of comparison, the Chernobyl nuclear disaster that occured in 1986 in the Ukraine, Russia- heretofore the worst nuclear disaster on record- burned for 10 days and cumulatively killed an estimated 1 million people worldwide. The Fukushima, Japan nuclear disaster has 5 nuclear reactors burning, 2 in partial meltdown and 3 in full meltdown- and they've ALL been uncontrollably burning since March 11th. Its been over 3 months and this nuclear disaster remains completely out of control. In fact, some industry estimates cite the possibility that these meltdowns will be contained (optimistically) in 1-3 years, at the very earliest.
The amount and intensity of the radioactive fallout from this particular nuclear disaster will assuredly kill hundreds of millions of people worldwide over time. Japan itself is, of course, the epicenter of this radioactive contamination that has spread out from these reactors."
Steven C. Jones
Tons of radioactive sewage in Japan is latest crisis
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/310988
The Japanese government has given the go-ahead for sewage with low levels of radiation to be turned into fertilizer, despite warnings from experts..
Unbelievable
Out of sight, out of mind....
Flammable gas detected in Fukushima pipe
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ii6RKXd1S68gk_yk9svlTyCagKRA
"Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) was unable to identify the gas but nonetheless said it was unlikely there would be an explosion in the reactor."
They know what gas it is. I don't see them achieving any "cold shutdown" of the molten pool as the concrete will no longer be able to contain the melt down. Someday soon and for years to come there will be a geyser there spewing toxins all over. Goodbye Northeast Japan....goodbye Tokyo.
Other than the notion that 33% of the U.S. coal power-plant inventory is 40 years old (or more) — what shocks about this presentation is the sentence that includes the FACT that plants capable of producing 103 gigawatts of electricity have NO CONTROLS whatsoever.
Honestly, that fact is shocking. How could it be, in the U.S., that we have so much power generated by plants that just spew pollutants, unfiltered and unprocessed, into the air which we all breathe?
I thought it was only the Chinese that did stupid crap like this.
http://electricalcontractor.com/?p=3284
Quote from: patric on October 09, 2011, 02:22:43 PM
the FACT that plants capable of producing 103 gigawatts of electricity have NO CONTROLS whatsoever.
Can I assume you are referring to pollution controls vs process controls. You are getting as sloppy as Heironymous.. in your statements.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 09, 2011, 06:08:39 PM
Can I assume you are referring to pollution controls vs process controls. You are getting as sloppy as Heironymous.. in your statements.
It was actually a quote from the link I provided.
Quote from: patric on October 09, 2011, 06:59:06 PM
It was actually a quote from the link I provided.
Didn't read the link, sorry about that.... but you are perpetuating the misconception.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 09, 2011, 08:08:51 PM
Didn't read the link, sorry about that.... but you are perpetuating the misconception.
No misconception when taken in context of the discussion. It is disingenuous to try to say that every entry in the same discussion should include the entire background. That is NOT what they taught you in English class. This is a collection of paragraphs and not only is it not required to repeat every previous thought/point in each paragraph; it is bad form to try to do so. That's why they invented the paragraph!
Has nothing to do with "getting sloppy". But you know that....
As far as the coal plants -well we all know why there has been so little progress made in removing arsenic and other toxics from the emissions.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 10, 2011, 11:48:50 AM
It is disingenuous to try to say that every entry in the same discussion should include the entire background. That is NOT what they taught you in English class.
Entire background? No. I was taught to avoid ambiguity when reasonably possible. You weren't in my English class.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 10, 2011, 12:56:13 PM
Entire background? No. I was taught to avoid ambiguity when reasonably possible. You weren't in my English class.
Good thing - I had Mrs. Penfield in Tulsa, and she actually taught English. Much to my dislike at the time....
Did you look at the link? The entire context is about pollution and emission controls. That's why it does not require repetition. By definition of the English language.
So here is the entire comment to make it more than obvious to the most casual observer;
Other than the notion that 33% of the U.S. coal power-plant inventory is 40 years old (or more) — what shocks about this presentation is the sentence that includes the FACT that plants capable of producing 103 gigawatts of electricity have NO CONTROLS whatsoever.
Honestly, that fact is shocking. How could it be, in the U.S., that we have so much power generated by plants that just spew pollutants, unfiltered and unprocessed, into the air which we all breathe?
I thought it was only the Chinese that did stupid crap like this. The net result of this graphic — for the EleBlog's proprietor — is that I no longer think the Chinese alone are the MOST STUPID energy generators in the world.
No.
Now, I know the Chinese have company . . .
Quote from: patric on October 09, 2011, 02:22:43 PM
Other than the notion that 33% of the U.S. coal power-plant inventory is 40 years old (or more) — what shocks about this presentation is the sentence that includes the FACT that plants capable of producing 103 gigawatts of electricity have NO CONTROLS whatsoever.
Honestly, that fact is shocking. How could it be, in the U.S., that we have so much power generated by plants that just spew pollutants, unfiltered and unprocessed, into the air which we all breathe?
I thought it was only the Chinese that did stupid crap like this.
http://electricalcontractor.com/?p=3284
So you are quoting someone who hasn't finished reading the material he has, and he is a writer, not and engineer, chemist, powerplant designer/builder/worker, or affiliated with or designed coal fired boiler systems designed for the production of electricity. He is a jouranlist/bloggist including a story on a Tata Automotive car in India that gets 58mpg.
http://electricalcontractor.com/ (http://electricalcontractor.com/)
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joe-salimando/13/37b/6b8 (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joe-salimando/13/37b/6b8)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 10, 2011, 03:14:28 PM
Good thing - I had Mrs. Penfield in Tulsa, and she actually taught English.
Did you look at the link?
Re: Nuclear Power Plants
« Reply #242 on: October 09, 2011, 07:08:51 pm »
Quote
It was actually a quote from the link I provided.
Didn't read the link, sorry about that.... but you are perpetuating the misconception.
What part of "Didn't read the link, sorry about that" are you unable to understand after Mrs. Penfield taught you English?
I read the link, or at least part of it, after the fact.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 10, 2011, 05:51:48 PM
Re: Nuclear Power Plants
« Reply #242 on: October 09, 2011, 07:08:51 pm »
What part of "Didn't read the link, sorry about that" are you unable to understand after Mrs. Penfield taught you English?
I read the link, or at least part of it, after the fact.
I read the link before the fact. Guess that's where I messed up - thought you would have read what you were commenting on before commenting on "perpetuating the misconception". My bad. I do that soooo often - expect the logical action - but then that whole RWRE dogma pops up and messes with everything. At least as bad, if not worse than the whole LWRE thing that gave us "Fast and Furious" - following dogma rather than what is right.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 11, 2011, 12:36:31 PM
I read the link before the fact. Guess that's where I messed up - thought you would have read what you were commenting on before commenting on "perpetuating the misconception". My bad. I do that soooo often - expect the logical action - but then that whole RWRE dogma pops up and messes with everything. At least as bad, if not worse than the whole LWRE thing that gave us "Fast and Furious" - following dogma rather than what is right.
I read a post to determine if I want spend time reading a link. I have wasted too much time reading links with nothing but drivel.
Quote from: Red Arrow on October 11, 2011, 01:31:18 PM
I read a post to determine if I want spend time reading a link. I have wasted too much time reading links with nothing but drivel.
Gotta admit, you hit that spot on, 100%.
First new nuclear reactors OK'd in over 30 years
http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/09/news/economy/nuclear_reactors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/09/news/economy/nuclear_reactors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t3)
QuoteNEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission approved licenses to build two new nuclear reactors Thursday, the first authorized in over 30 years.
The reactors are being built in Georgia by a consortium of utilities led by Southern Co. (SO, Fortune 500) They will be sited at the Vogtle nuclear power plant complex, about 170 miles east of Atlanta. The plant already houses two older reactors.
Although new nuclear reactors have come online in the United States within the last couple of decades -- the last one started operation in 1996 -- the NRC hasn't issued a license to build a new reactor since 1978, a year before the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania. Reactors that have opened in the last decades received their initial licences before 1978.
The combination of the Three Mile Island incident and the high costs of nuclear power turned many utilities away from the technology.
The utilities building the new Vogtle reactors submitted their application seven years ago. Prep-work at the site has been under way for some time, but construction on actual reactors couldn't begin until the final license was issued.
The new reactors are a Westinghouse design called the AP 1000. Together they are expected to cost $14 billion and provide 2200 megawatts of power, according to a spokesman for Southern Co. That's enough to power 1 million homes.
The plants are being built with the help of a conditional $8.3 billion loan guarantee from the Department of Energy. The loan guarantee is part of DOE's broader loan program that has been criticized for backing companies like Solyndra, the bankrupt maker of solar panels.
The Southern spokesman said the loan guarantee, combined with other regulatory measures, enable the project to receive cheaper financing that will ultimately save ratepayers $1 billion.
The first reactor is expected to come online in 2016 and the second one in 2017, according to Southern Co.
The AP 1000 is the newest NRC-approved nuclear reactor. This would be the first one built in the United States, although four are already under construction in China, said Scott Shaw, a Westinghouse spokesman.
Critics have said the containment walls of the AP 1000 aren't strong enough to withstand a terrorist attack, but Shaw says they were redesigned after September 11, 2001 and have held up during simulations.
He also said the design's passive cooling system makes it much safer than older designs. The AP 1000 uses gravity and condensation -- not electricity -- to cool the fuel rods.
It was the loss of electric power that led to the meltdown of Japan's Fukushima Daiichi reactors following the tsunami in 2011.
Still, a coalition of nine mostly regional anti-nuclear groups say the current design is not safe. They plan on challenging Thursday's decision in federal court.
In addition to fears of a meltdown at a nuclear power plant, critics also point out that the nation still has no long term plan for the disposal of nuclear waste.
The waste, which is highly radioactive, is currently stored at the plants themselves while the federal government continues its decades-long search for a permanent disposal facility.
There are currently 104 operating nuclear reactors at 64 plants across the country. Half are over 30 years old.
Nuclear power provides the country with about 18% of its electricity. Coal is the nation's largest source for electricity, providing 43% of our energy, while natural gas makes up another 25%, according to the Energy Information Agency.
Renewables make up the remaining 14%, with hydroelectric dams accounting for more than half of that. Wind accounts for about 3% and biomass (think paper mills or agricultural plants) another 2%. Solar and geothermal make up under 1% of American electricity production, according to EIA.
In addition to the Vogtle plant, 16 other plants across the country have applications with the the NRC to build 25 more reactors.
Most of those reactors would be built at existing nuclear power plants but there are two applications submitted for brand new nuclear plants -- one in Levy County, Fla., and another outside Gaffney, S.C.
Environmentalists are split when it comes to nuclear power. Many are weary of it, citing the safety and waste disposal concerns. Others favor it on the grounds that it can provide massive amounts of power that's basically greenhouse gas-free.
I can't believe TTC hasn't already wall-papered TNF with this. :P
Everything you always wanted to know...
http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/
Some interesting simulations there. Interesting how we have gone from required triple redundancy in past to only double on this reactor. That must mean they re much safer now.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
Some interesting simulations there. Interesting how we have gone from required triple redundancy in past to only double on this reactor. That must mean they re much safer now.
Jack Lemmon approved
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
Some interesting simulations there. Interesting how we have gone from required triple redundancy in past to only double on this reactor. That must mean they re much safer now.
I guess you don't consider the passive cooling system to be part of the redundancy?
Also, that's about $6.36 per watt installed cost of generation.
Solar in 1998 was $10.73 per watt.
By 2010 it was $7.16 per watt.
2011 it is $6.40 per watt. All residential.
Commercial scale is running $5.20 per watt installed (2011)
And utility scale is $3.75 per watt installed (2011).
So at today's prices, the nuke will be over 1.5 times the cost out the door. Not counting fuel costs, which with the Federal subsidies, it is said that cost might be kept to as low as 6 or 7 cents per kwh - which hides the true cost of the subsidy in the Federal budget. The already experienced history of nukes would put it closer to 25 - 30 cents per kwh.
And none of that cost estimate includes spent fuel disposal or decommissioning of the plant.
http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/25/394663/solar-grid-parity-101/?mobile=nc
Solar has reached and gone way beyond parity to nookkular.
Quote from: nathanm on February 09, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
I guess you don't consider the passive cooling system to be part of the redundancy?
Wasn't clear - the two pumps versus three they are talking about. The reactors I worked with required 3 pumps in every situation for triple redundancy. The only problem was, I guess nobody told them that the pumps absolutely HAD to be installed in forward position - NOT reversed - so that when the unit overheated, the pumps pumped backwards.
Actually, not quite backwards - centrifugal pumps do pump forward when installed backwards - it is at a much reduced rate. So instead of say 100 gallons per minute, you might only get 10 - 15 gallons per minute. Varies by pump.
The passive scheme they are talking about actually looks very good. Very well thought out. I think Westinghouse has done an excellent job with that design. If ya gotta have nukes, that one may be the one to have.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 09, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
The passive scheme they are talking about actually looks very good. Very well thought out. I think Westinghouse has done an excellent job with that design. If ya gotta have nukes, that one may be the one to have.
There are far better ones. And in an environment of increasing solar and wind usage without accompanying transmission upgrades, the extra expense of nuclear is the price we pay for not burning coal or gas for base load generation. Even if solar was totally free, we'd still need something else to make up for the times the sun isn't shining.
Don't get me wrong, I think we should have solar panels on almost every building, but even when that day comes we'll still need to do something when it's dark out. ;)
Quote from: nathanm on February 09, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
There are far better ones. And in an environment of increasing solar and wind usage without accompanying transmission upgrades, the extra expense of nuclear is the price we pay for not burning coal or gas for base load generation. Even if solar was totally free, we'd still need something else to make up for the times the sun isn't shining.
Don't get me wrong, I think we should have solar panels on almost every building, but even when that day comes we'll still need to do something when it's dark out. ;)
I would like to see some better designs - am very interested in this kind of stuff for smaller scale operations in heating/cooling. This kind of "no pump" moving of heat should be adaptable to smaller setups. Have you got some references you could send?
Grid upgrades;
As mentioned repeatedly, we would eliminate the need for about 15% of the "extra capacity" that is said to be needed now just by cutting the losses through the wires in half - double the size of the conductors. We lose approximately 30% now just shipping the power around. That means 1 out of every 3 power plants is just sitting there doing nothing productive - just heating up the air - a complete waste.
And yet, $14 billion for a couple of nukes is more "efficient" than adding wire to the grid in that area? Yeah...right...
Solar;
Absolutely! And as I have said many times before - no one is saying, nor has ever said, that solar (or wind) is the only power needed. Just as coal or natural gas are neither sufficient unto themselves to provide all power. A truly balanced approach, like Germany is working on.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 10, 2012, 10:53:20 AM
I would like to see some better designs - am very interested in this kind of stuff for smaller scale operations in heating/cooling. This kind of "no pump" moving of heat should be adaptable to smaller setups. Have you got some references you could send?
Simple. One pipe and two pipe low pressure steam systems, been in use for 150 or so years. Steam rises, condenses, and gravity flows back to the boiler. There are also eductor systems you can set up for hydronic heating loops and make them pump-less.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 10, 2012, 10:53:20 AM
Solar;
Absolutely! And as I have said many times before - no one is saying, nor has ever said, that solar (or wind) is the only power needed. Just as coal or natural gas are neither sufficient unto themselves to provide all power. A truly balanced approach, like Germany is working on.
Less coal, please. They collectively far exceed the amount of radioactive releases that have come from fission plants, even including Chernobyl and Fukushima. They just do it a little bit at a time. I'm OK with natural gas in principle, but the price is often so volatile that it's a bit problematic.
Quote from: nathanm on February 10, 2012, 03:04:34 PM
Less coal, please. They collectively far exceed the amount of radioactive releases that have come from fission plants, even including Chernobyl and Fukushima. They just do it a little bit at a time. I'm OK with natural gas in principle, but the price is often so volatile that it's a bit problematic.
That touches on a post in a different thread that I am still working on now. The "Obama regulations" that are destroying this country - not. There will be an answer to Gaspar soon on that. The basic idea is that he (and the extreme right) say that to add controls to take mercury out of the exhaust is gonna cost too much. We shall see.
The solar example I mentioned works for coal plants, too. Gonna be cheaper to do solar than to add nukes. (Or most likely coal.)
Oh, and the example didn't even touch the cost of nuke fuel. Which has skyrocketed by a factor of 10 or so in the last few years. Previously - quite a while ago - I showed the cost of uranium ore going from about $40 to 400 -ish.
Quotehttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204369404577211811642379038.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
The Fukushima Daiichi accident in March itself took out important nuclear reactors and since then, public opposition to any restarts has meant more of the nation's 54 nuclear reactors remain idled when shut down for their periodic maintenance checks.
Only three units are now operating and even those will be shut down as early as April. On Monday, Japan said the average nuclear power capacity used for power generation in January was 10.3%.
Japan's screwed....
We're all screwed...
QuotePublished on Tuesday, April 3, 2012 by Common Dreams
Fukushima Radiation Moving Steadily Across Pacific
Concentrated levels found as scientists sample the Pacific for signs of Fukushima
Teams of scientists have already found debris and levels of radiation far off the coast of Japan, one year after the nuclear disaster at Fukushima. Reports are now suggesting that nuclear radiation has traveled at a steady pace. That contaminated debris and marine life could reach the US coast as soon as one year from now, depending on ocean currents.
A sample of copepods taken during a June 2011 cruise aboard the R/V Ka'imikai-O-Kanaloa off the northeast coast of Japan. (Ken Kostel, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
Radiation from Fukushima's nuclear disaster is appearing in concentrated levels in sea creatures and ocean water up to 186 miles off of the coast of Japan. The levels of radiation are 'hundreds to thousands of times higher than would be expected naturally' according to Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI). Researchers are questioning how the radioactive accumulation on the seafloor will effect the marine ecosystem in the future.
"What this means for the marine environment of the Northwest Pacific over the long term is something that we need to keep our eyes on," said the WHOI.
* * *
Fukushima Radiation Tracked Across Pacific Ocean (Live Science):
"We saw a telephone pole," study leader Ken Buesseler, a marine chemist and oceanographer at WHOI, told LiveScience. "There were lots of chemical plants. A lot of stuff got washed into the ocean."
The Tohoku earthquake and tsunami of March 11, 2011, led to large releases of radioactive elements from the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plants into the Pacific Ocean. To find out how that radiation spread in the waters off Japan, in June researchers released "drifters" — small monitoring devices that move with the current and take measurements of the surrounding water.
The drifters are tracked via GPS, showing the direction of currents over a period of about five months. Meanwhile, the team also took samples of zooplankton (tiny floating animals) and fish, measuring the concentration of radioactive cesium in the water.
Small amounts of radioactive cesium-137, which takes about 30 years for half the material to decay (called its half-life), would be expected in the water, largely left over from atmospheric nuclear tests in the 1960s and the Chernobyl accident in 1986. But the expedition scientists found nearly equal parts of both cesium-137 and cesium-134, which has a half-life of only two years. Any "naturally" occurring cesium-134 would be long gone. [...]
The team also looked at the amounts of cesium isotopes in the local sea life, including zooplankton, copepods (tiny crustaceans), shrimp and fish. They found both cesium-137 and cesium-134 in the animals, sometimes at concentrations hundreds of times that of the surrounding water. Average radioactivity was about 10 to 15 Bq per kilogram, depending on whether it was zooplankton or fish (concentrations were lowest in the fish).
An international research team is reporting the results of a research cruise they organized to study the amount, spread, and impacts of radiation released into the ocean from the tsunami-crippled reactors in Fukushima, Japan. The group of 17 researchers and technicians from eight institutions spent 15 days at sea in June 2011 studying ocean currents, and sampling water and marine organisms up to the edge of the exclusion zone around the reactors.
Led by Ken Buesseler, a senior scientist and marine chemist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI), the team found that the concentration of several key radioactive substances, or radionuclides, were elevated but varied widely across the study area, reflecting the complex nature of the marine environment. In addition, although levels of radioactivity in marine life sampled during the cruise were well below levels of concern for humans and the organisms themselves, the researchers leave open the question of whether radioactive materials are accumulating on the seafloor sediments and, if so, whether these might pose a long-term threat to the marine ecosystem. The results appear in the online edition of the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).
"Our goal was to provide an independent assessment of what the Japanese were reporting and also to get further off shore to sample in places where we thought the currents would be carrying most of the radionuclides," said Buesseler. "We also wanted to provide as wide ranging a look as possible at potential impacts on the marine system to give a better idea of what was going on in the region, but also to provide a stronger baseline from which to measure future changes." [...]
Another open question is why radiation levels in the waters around Fukushima have not decreased since the Japanese stopped emergency cooling operations. According to Buesseler, it may be an indication that the ground surrounding the reactors has become saturated with contaminated water that is slowly seeping out in to the ocean. It may also be a sign that radionuclides in ocean sediments have become remobilized.
"What this means for the marine environment of the Northwest Pacific over the long term is something that we need to keep our eyes on," said Buesseler.
The day the tsunami hit Fuckishima, I quit eating fish....good instincts.
Quote
Fukushima radiation found in California kelp
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/04/08/BAO51O00HO.DTL
Kelp off California was contaminated with short-lived radioisotopes a month after Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant accident, a sign that the spilled radiation reached the state's coastline, according to a new scientific study.
Scientists from CSU Long Beach tested giant kelp collected off Orange County, Santa Cruz and other locations after the March 2011 accident and detected radioactive iodine, which was released from the damaged nuclear reactor.
The largest concentration was about 250 times higher than levels found in kelp before the accident.
great bucking technology....
So what was the level before and what is the level after? 250 times one atom of radioactive iodine per pound of kelp is still not much.
Well, at least the Coast Guard got some gunnery practice from the earthquake! Got to sink a ship!
How do we know for sure this came from Fukishima and not an accidental release out west or an earlier, unknown release from elsewhere in the Pacific rim?
As Paul Harvey would say, "Here's the rest of the story:"
QuoteThe radioactivity had no known effects on the giant kelp, or on fish and other marine life, and it was undetectable a month later.
Iodine 131 "has an eight-day half-life, so it's pretty much all gone," Manley said. "But this shows what happens half a world away does effect what happens here. I don't think these levels are harmful, but it's better if we don't have it at all."
Spread in large, dense, brown forests across the ocean off California, giant kelp is the largest of all algae and grows faster than virtually any other life on Earth. It accumulates iodine, making it a useful way to check how far radioactive material spreads.
"Kelp forests are some of the most productive ecosystems on Earth," he said. "One thing about (kelp) is it has a large surface canopy," which means it is continually exposed to the air and whatever contaminants are in it.
In addition, giant kelp concentrates radioactive iodine - for every 1 molecule in the water, there would be 10,000 in its tissues.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/04/07/BAO51O00HO.DTL#ixzz1re4GRnj8
QuoteReactor Designer Admits That Fukushima Is Now the China Syndrome
http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2011-11-20/reactor-designer-admits-that-fukushima-is-now-the-china-syndrome/
The China Syndrome is happening right now, according to Haruo Uehara, the man who designed Reactor 3 at Fukushima. He says that, since there has been no significant improvement since the earthquake and tsunami devastated the TEPCO nuclear plant on 11 March this year, there is no escaping the reality that hot fuel melted through the pressure and container vessels into the ground. Uehara further described the seriousness of the situation, saying if it reaches an underground water source, then the water supply, the ground, and sea water will also be contaminated. Furthermore, if the underground water remains heated for long enough, a massive hydrovolcanic explosion could occur. Hydrovolcanic is not a made-up word to give an impression of a big eruption involving water. It's a geological term referencing particularly violent volcanic eruptions involving the mixture of water with magma. This is not a small, or even simply a local, concern. In an exceptionally active volcanic region, a hydrovolcanic explosion could have devastating and far-reaching effects. Adding to the danger, he also said that radioactive debris has been spreading in the Pacific Ocean and that it had reached the Marshall Islands on 15 November 2011, which is much faster than anticipated. Therefore, all countries and islands in and around the Pacific are at risk from the flotsam of Fukushima. The term, China Syndrome, comes from a 1979 hit movie in which the unthinkable—a nuclear meltdown—almost happens. Now, it appears that the unthinkable, something so terrifying that the movie stopped short of it, has actually happened. Why isn't this major news? Well, just take a look at the video just posted, Want Proof That Mainstream Media Is Controlled? Watch This! The powers-that-be do not want us to know. Therefore, since there hasn't been any good news, we're given no news.
Meanwhile, make fun of Obama....
Seven hours after the Aug. 19, 2009 automatic shutdown of the Wolf Creek Kansas nuclear plant, due to an electric problem related to a lightning strike, an NRC inspector found water leaking from the system that cools the emergency diesel generators and virtually all other emergency equipment.
An internal study in 2007 had forecast such leakage, showing that a vital cooling system was prone to rust damage that would result in leaks. Management did nothing, the UCS report says. In 2008, the same piping developed the leaks, just as predicted. Management only patched the leaks, doing little about the rusting causing the problem. In 2009, the piping developed more leaks. This time, workers failed to notice the water puddling on the floor until an NRC inspector found it 7 hours later.
While the event occurred in 2009, the NRC report appeared in 2010.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0318/Nuclear-safety-Five-recent-near-miss-incidents-at-US-nuclear-power-plants/Wolf-Creek-Kansas-Emergency-system-leaks
And some folks wonder why it is that others of us believe regulation is important.
But those regulations would be an "unwarranted government intrusion" into the operation of their business....
We have known for some time the dangers of asbestos - it's role in causing mesothelioma (see link below for prime example of one person so afflicted - one of his last public acts.)
One of these days, I bet we find out that ionizing radiation also has serious adverse health affects... oh, wait...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKHFWpaTUmY
It is estimated the dinosaur existed over the entire planet for 160 million years before eating his way into his own self destruction, and then man appeared some 60 million years later after the dinosaur’s genocide. The dinosaur had two brains, one in his head and one in the tail.
The archives will never record our deeds as there will be as no information escaping a black hole. The earth’s demise will be a flash of light engulfing all the planets of this solar system.
Man is dealing with fusion of the planet’s superstructure in either an unknown or understood matters of what makes up our universe. Our venture into reactors was begun by ions used to accelerate the detonation among common explosives. The fear at the first fusion was that it might overflow into atomic matter other than the common explosives that was going to be detonated. As we increase these experiments we could be observed by life forms among the other 3 trillion solar systems (if they exist) as a big bang creator of another black hole in this solar system. Only the eons of time would correct our error.
We are merely experimenting with a brain in our tails where it may be eons of time before our species can control these ions by the creation a brain in our head. We have the knowledge to destroy all life on this planet. We are waiting a place in time, like the dinosaur to pull our own trigger,
Quote from: shadows on May 22, 2012, 12:51:39 PM
It is estimated the dinosaur existed over the entire planet for 160 million years before eating his way into his own self destruction, and then man appeared some 60 million years later after the dinosaur's genocide.
Dinosaur Hitler. That a Godwin?
Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 01:02:20 PM
Dinosaur Hitler. That a Godwin?
Unless generations are able to grow brains in their heads all the generations will see is a flash of light and no one will be available to say "I TOLD YOU SO".
True it will be another dinosaur like Hitler and maybe there will be another life form in another solar system that will find our black hole as mysterious as the vanishing of Hitler who provided us with most of our technology from space to the atoms.
Quote from: shadows on May 22, 2012, 01:59:13 PM
Unless generations are able to grow brains in their heads all the generations will see is a flash of light and no one will be available to say "I TOLD YOU SO".
True it will be another dinosaur like Hitler and maybe there will be another life form in another solar system that will find our black hole as mysterious as the vanishing of Hitler who provided us with most of our technology from space to the atoms.
Wow. Last I checked space and atoms were already existing. Kinda hard to qualify it as 'technology'.
There was a 'natural' nuclear reactor in Gabon about a billion and a half years ago. Sets the precedent showing that the earth is not going to "spontaneously combust" into a black hole. We could end up trashing the environment enough, such that it would no longer be compatible with life as we know it, though.
Quote from: Hoss on May 22, 2012, 02:41:46 PM
Last I checked space and atoms were already existing.
No, sorry. I am actually a Boltzmann brain drifting through space and you, and all atoms, are just figments of my imagination.
Quote from: nathanm on May 22, 2012, 03:05:02 PM
No, sorry. I am actually a Boltzmann brain drifting through space and you, and all atoms, are just figments of my imagination.
Did some one miss in the 3 grade history that the German fellow who migrated to US in believe 1937 and brought with him the formula, among others, the splitting the atom. Then too there was that German school boy who at 17 designed the V2 rocked and buzz bomb that kept the British citizens in bomb shelters at night and became our booty of the war ll. Do you remember when our President said that we were going in the next year establish a man made satellite in orbit and those nasty Rooshians sent him a message for him to listen the beep, peep, peep on a given frequency as that was their satellite in orbit. (Rumors say they may have offered him a copy of how it is done.)
Course we have allowed Corporate America to pass this technology on to Europe and the Mid-East. (Creating jobs for them so they will not wallow in poverty making less that $20.00 per hour)
There is some more good news as the Tulsa citizens are going to vote in November on subsidizing AA for any additional expenses then may accrue at their airport location and the FOX guarding the door will determine what addition expenses are.
Quote from: shadows on May 22, 2012, 04:33:03 PM
Did some one miss in the 3 grade history that the German fellow who migrated to US in believe 1937 and brought with him the formula, among others, the splitting the atom. Then too there was that German school boy who at 17 designed the V2 rocked and buzz bomb that kept the British citizens in bomb shelters at night and became our booty of the war ll. Do you remember when our President said that we were going in the next year establish a man made satellite in orbit and those nasty Rooshians sent him a message for him to listen the beep, peep, peep on a given frequency as that was their satellite in orbit. (Rumors say they may have offered him a copy of how it is done.)
Course we have allowed Corporate America to pass this technology on to Europe and the Mid-East. (Creating jobs for them so they will not wallow in poverty making less that $20.00 per hour)
There is some more good news as the Tulsa citizens are going to vote in November on subsidizing AA for any additional expenses then may accrue at their airport location and the FOX guarding the door will determine what addition expenses are.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrBB0HovtRwPvXxKkkXGgsNUKMTCmgA2FRHuNjNaNlbS1h0ZoR)
Now that picture answer the nuke problem.
Have some wax and candle molds.
If the lights go out think of how the native birth rate will increase above that of the minority.
Quote from: shadows on May 22, 2012, 12:51:39 PM
We have the knowledge to destroy all life on this planet. We are waiting a place in time, like the dinosaur to pull our own trigger,
Solution to the Social Security funding problem. I think I'll stop saving for retirement while we're waiting.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 22, 2012, 06:41:15 PM
Solution to the Social Security funding problem. I think I'll stop saving for retirement while we're waiting.
Have pity on those who work for SS who have gotten mandatory raises crammed down their throats every six months that is deposited in the banks of the South Sea Islands. And to their grave the money to pay for the golden parachute pensions' and health care under "entitlements".
Shame be with you.
Candle molds? South Seas? Dinosaurs?
shadows is mixing his meds again.
Quote from: nathanm on May 22, 2012, 03:05:02 PM
No, sorry. I am actually a Boltzmann brain drifting through space and you, and all atoms, are just figments of my imagination.
You aren't that 'constant'...
Sorry...couldn't resist.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 22, 2012, 08:17:28 PM
Candle molds? South Seas? Dinosaurs?
shadows is mixing his meds again.
...
Did a nuclear power plant overheat on Monday May 21? A tragedy of some sort happened in one of the BA additions as turned over trash carts of about 35 gallons size were scattered along the street at 5:30 PM resembling what would happen in the event a nuclear power plant overheated when the cooling system fails and splits open. Course the power plant makes trash of a 25 mile area from the nuclear power plant up to a couple hundred years.
But I found out BA did not have a nuclear power plant explosion to go along with their new casino. It seems BA has both private haulers and the city has trash haulers. So possible the private hauler ordered his trash carts to prepare with the June 1 date established for Tulsa’s trash change. Believe a poster that is quite active in trash pickup and recycling does a lot of educational posting to inform the citizens on this form. Since the trash cart spill was not by nuclear explosion nor a tornado it should be quite a relief for many citizens of BA to know.
Quote from: shadows on May 23, 2012, 12:02:06 AM
...
Did a nuclear power plant overheat on Monday May 21? A tragedy of some sort happened in one of the BA additions as turned over trash carts of about 35 gallons size were scattered along the street at 5:30 PM resembling what would happen in the event a nuclear power plant overheated when the cooling system fails and splits open. Course the power plant makes trash of a 25 mile area from the nuclear power plant up to a couple hundred years.
But I found out BA did not have a nuclear power plant explosion to go along with their new casino. It seems BA has both private haulers and the city has trash haulers. So possible the private hauler ordered his trash carts to prepare with the June 1 date established for Tulsa's trash change. Believe a poster that is quite active in trash pickup and recycling does a lot of educational posting to inform the citizens on this form. Since the trash cart spill was not by nuclear explosion nor a tornado it should be quite a relief for many citizens of BA to know.
June 1st isn't the trash change date, it's October 1st. You have some learning to do...you might want to stop breathing that pink gas....
Quote from: Hoss on May 23, 2012, 12:12:50 AM
June 1st isn't the trash change date, it's October 1st. You have some learning to do...you might want to stop breathing that pink gas....
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I assumed that the 3rd grade larning would have informed people that to have ordered and distributed the trash carts by the expiration of Tulsa's negotiated agreement date of June 1 it would have required delivery before June 1 which the buyer had on hand before May 21. Why would he have stored them for four months? Your hands and toes contain 20 stages that can be used as increments the same way as the abacus is used. Lol good buddy.
Quote from: shadows on May 23, 2012, 12:57:58 AM
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I assumed that the 3rd grade larning would have informed people that to have ordered and distributed the trash carts by the expiration of Tulsa's negotiated agreement date of June 1 it would have required delivery before June 1 which the buyer had on hand before May 21. Why would he have stored them for four months? Your hands and toes contain 20 stages that can be used as increments the same way as the abacus is used. Lol good buddy.
If you would read the paper and maybe bring your mail in you would know that the carts will be distributed later in the summer to prepare people for the October 1...oh, nevermind. You'll never be satisfied.
Too bad, you have to live with it or get a different trash hauler. If that's an option. If not, you're SOL buddy.
Quote from: Hoss on May 23, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
If you would read the paper and maybe bring your mail in you would know that the carts will be distributed later in the summer to prepare people for the October 1...oh, nevermind. You'll never be satisfied.
He won't touch a newspaper or his mail because he believes that it has been coated with a powder form of the pink gas.
You are going to wish we had one after the plant in Oolagah closes and are rates rise 30%.......
Quote from: shadows on May 23, 2012, 12:57:58 AM
I assumed that the 3rd grade larning would have informed people that to have ordered and distributed the trash carts by the expiration of Tulsa's negotiated agreement date of June 1 it would have required delivery before June 1 which the buyer had on hand before May 21. Why would he have stored them for four months?
Nothing in that has anything to do with reality. There is nothing to do with trash that has ever had anything to do with June 1st or May 21st. Anything.
Really shadows? Stop posting gibberish with made up facts.
This "forum" is less relevant each day.
Quote from: ARGUS on May 23, 2012, 10:48:59 AM
This "forum" is less relevant each day.
No one forces you to visit...
Quote from: ARGUS on May 23, 2012, 10:48:59 AM
This "forum" is less relevant each day.
How do you define relevant?
Quote from: ARGUS on May 23, 2012, 10:48:59 AM
This "forum" is less relevant each day.
And you helped by saying that?
Today there have been discussions about state funding of a new museum, school superintendent changes, a proposal for a new tax to save jobs, Tulsa's bike movement, education funding, and threads on both presidential candidates.
Your last five posts have been to complain, a sentence about Mazzio's guy dying, question how trash haulers count bags, ask questions about a pile of dirt you saw, and say you would tear down a downtown building if you owned it.
Maybe it's just you who isn't relevant.
::)
Quote from: Hoss on May 24, 2012, 11:25:59 AM
What a relevant retort...
So we now have a new King?
Quote from: Teatownclown on April 03, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
We're all screwed...
The day the tsunami hit Fuckishima, I quit eating fish....good instincts.
QuoteGuest Commentary
HARVEY WASSERMAN FOR BUZZFLASH AT TRUTHOUT
Hold That "Hot" Fukushima Sushi
We all knew it was coming.
Radioactive tuna has been caught off the coast of California. The fingerprint of cesium 137 is unmistakably from the exploded reactors at Fukushima.
But Fukushima's hot hands are also on a very welcome debate still stalemating China's plans to build more than 30 new reactors. Fierce No Nukes opposition continues to escalate in India. Reactor cancellations have spread throughout Europe.
And the $8.33 billion loan guarantee for Georgia's Vogtle double-reactor project has still not been finalized. After just five months construction is $1 billion over budget and falling ever further behind schedule. There is no firm price tag. Substandard concrete and rebar steel that doesn't meet official specifications are just the beginning of the nightmare.
You can help Georgia ratepayers and American taxpayers out of this misery by signing our petition at http://nukefree.org/please-do-sign-petition-stop-new-nuke-loan-guarantees.
You can also prepare for life without sushi. National Public Radio has assured us all that the radioactive tuna are perfectly safe to eat. This is the same network whose Scott Simon glibly told us that there were no injuries at Three Mile Island, "not even a sprained ankle."
But as long-time radiation expert Robert Alavarez warns, "It's not harmless." Fukushima released far more cesium-137 than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Many decades ago lesser fallout from nuclear testing forced the confiscation of more than 4 million pounds of fish.
But as the really bad news from Fukushima continues to escalate, we must begin to adjust to far worse than giving up raw fish.
Massive quantities of Japanese trash have begun to wash up on the west coast of North America, from Alaska to California and beyond. The tragic residue of the earthquake and tsunami that killed thousands and cost trillions has crossed the Pacific. The waves of debris include at least one "ghost ship," many motor vehicles, thousands of barrels full of unknown substances and much more.
Much of it is radioactive. Government officials, the nuclear industry and corporate media will lowball the readings and scoff at the health implications. But American beaches are now contaminated, the fish you once ate is unsafe and the situation could get much worse.
Still hovering 100 feet in the air is the spent fuel pool at Fukushima #4. Stacked with thousands of tons of the most lethal substances ever created, the fuel rods could come crashing to the ground with the next big earthquake. Strewn at random, with no cooling water, exposed to the air, the radiation releases would far exceed Chernobyl, the nuclear bomb tests and any other polluting fallout humankind has yet created. That it would go global is a given.
Repeated calls for help from international teams of experts underline the core reality that nobody really knows what to do, except to pray for seismic stability...an impossible dream in Japan, but at this point the only port of last resort.
Thankfully, the doubts instilled by Fukushima and the growing power of the global No Nukes movement have had their impact. Reports from China indicate deep divisions about further reactor construction.
Massive demonstrations and hunger strikes continue in opposition to India's Koodankulam project. Cancellations have spread throughout Europe.
In the meantime we Americans can finally kill the prospect of federal loan guarantees for building new reactors here.
As Mary Olson of the Nuclear Information & Resource Service has pointed out, money for new nukes---which can't get private financing---was set aside early in the George W. Bush Administration. But in large part as a result of the power of the grassroots No Nukes movement, not a single guarantee has yet been finalized.
Vogtle is the first project officially designated. But problems with design, planning and execution continue to escalate. So have the rate hikes imposed on Georgia consumers. With no firm price tag or completion date, and with the entire industry in chaos, the Office of Management and Budget has been unable to set reasonable terms that the reactor builders can meet.
It all adds up to an industry in accelerating collapse. Reactor construction at South Carolina's V.C. Summer is also over budget, behind schedule and at the core of massive rate hike fights in both Carolinas.
Reactors proposed for Florida's Levy County have soared over a minimum of $9.5 billion to as high as $12 billion each, and still climbing---far in excess of original estimates. Shutdowns continue at nearby Crystal River, California's San Onofre, the flooded Calhoun in Nebraska and many others. Public pressure to forever close Vermont Yankee, New York's Indian Point, Ohio's Davis-Besse, South Texas and more continues to escalate.
Whether these shut-down movements succeed before a Fukushima happens here, or that spent fuel pool collapses, or Vogtle again escalates in price, remains to be seen.
What's certain is that you can help stop the Vogtle loan guarantee and kill the chance of any new reactors being built here---paving the path at last for a totally green-powered Solartopian Earth.
So next time you start to reach for some sushi, grab a pen or keyboard instead. Sign the petitions, call your Representative, run a bake sale---do whatever is needed to kill this loan guarantee and lessen the odds on being harmed by a Fukushima here at home.
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Harvey Wasserman's SOLARTOPIA! is at harveywaseerman.com along with HARVEY WASSERMAN'S HISTORY OF THE US. His Green Power & Wellness Show airs at prn.fm. He is Senior Editor of freepress.org, where this was first published.
I post this stuff to help all of us....I really do.
According to Rueters, the radioactive tuna were discovered in Aug. 2011 and the levels are well below acceptable standards. I guess that explains why my spicy tuna rolls still don't glow in the dark.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/28/us-japan-nuclear-tuna-idUSBRE84R0MF20120528
Quote from: DTowner on June 14, 2012, 02:03:11 PM
According to Rueters, the radioactive tuna were discovered in Aug. 2011 and the levels are well below acceptable standards. I guess that explains why my spicy tuna rolls still don't glow in the dark.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/28/us-japan-nuclear-tuna-idUSBRE84R0MF20120528
Take a look at the scholarly material he reads:
"HARVEY WASSERMAN FOR
BUZZFLASH AT TRUTHOUT"
I mean really?
Japan just started two reactors up.
Quote from: Townsend on June 14, 2012, 02:21:14 PM
Japan just started two reactors up.
Temporary. Here's a tip: LNG
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 02:22:17 PM
Temporary. Here's a tip: LNG
Not so easy for a country like Japan without any domestic LNG production.
Truthout!
(http://cdn08.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ryanseacrest.jpg)
Dominion closing nuclear plant due to low natgas prices
(Reuters) - Dominion Resources Inc plans to shut its Kewaunee plant in Wisconsin next year, the first U.S. nuclear plant to fall victim to the steep drop in power prices as rising natural gas production makes some plants uncompetitive.
After claiming hundreds of coal-fired plants, the boom in U.S. shale gas output is now starting to grind down the nuclear industry, with smaller older plants like the 566-megawatt (MW) Kewaunee plant first to be affected.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/22/us-dominionresources-idUSBRE89L1EY20121022
That's both great and not so great. Great that it gets an older reactor offline. Not so great in that it replaces it with a GHG-emitting fuel that is far more vulnerable to supply disruptions.
Quote from: nathanm on October 25, 2012, 02:16:44 PM
That's both great and not so great. Great that it gets an older reactor offline. Not so great in that it replaces it with a GHG-emitting fuel that is far more vulnerable to supply disruptions.
It's the same type reactor (albeit different maker) that partially melted at Three Mile Island.
Sadly, they were the county's biggest employer, and victim of investment bankers who wanted to quickly unload a failed investment strategy.
Quote from: nathanm on October 25, 2012, 02:16:44 PM
That's both great and not so great. Great that it gets an older reactor offline. Not so great in that it replaces it with a GHG-emitting fuel that is far more vulnerable to supply disruptions.
The recent past history of uranium supplies are showing that the supply of nuke fuel is becoming the poster child of "vulnerable to supply disruptions".
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 25, 2012, 07:34:36 PM
The recent past history of uranium supplies are showing that the supply of nuke fuel is becoming the poster child of "vulnerable to supply disruptions".
Sure, but the supply disruption isn't going to shut the plant down
right this second. It'll be a problem next year when it's time to shut down and refuel. In a gas fired plant, if the poorly maintained pipeline starts leaking or something, it's out of service right this second, with all the attendant grid difficulties that brings with it.
At least coal fired plants usually have at least a couple of days worth of fuel on hand at any given time.
Quote from: nathanm on October 25, 2012, 08:26:59 PM
Sure, but the supply disruption isn't going to shut the plant down right this second. It'll be a problem next year when it's time to shut down and refuel. In a gas fired plant, if the poorly maintained pipeline starts leaking or something, it's out of service right this second, with all the attendant grid difficulties that brings with it.
At least coal fired plants usually have at least a couple of days worth of fuel on hand at any given time.
And that gets right to one of the biggest problems we have in this country right now - rotting infrastructure. Both private and public.
And the poorly maintained pipeline is due to a liability concern and structure of regulations that lets them get by with an attitude of "don't inspect; don't tell". If they don't maintain, then they are literally allowed to use that as a defense when something goes wrong - "we didn't know...." Because they didn't inspect/maintain. And are not forced to because it would be an "unwarranted government intrusion".
Catch 22. How sad is that...??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 26, 2012, 10:58:32 AM
And the poorly maintained pipeline is due to a liability concern and structure of regulations that lets them get by with an attitude of "don't inspect; don't tell".
The most galling part? Their rates, which have to be approved by FERC since pipelines are (usually, there are some parallel pipelines with different operators) monopolies include a charge for maintenance which is never done. Kind of like they include a charge for taxes that are (usually) never paid. MLPs pay no corporate-level income tax, but still get to charge as if they did. It's a freakin' racket.