I'm an employee of the Creek Nation and I've thought about posting this for a long time and I'm posting this because the citizens have a right to know about all of the behind the scenes stuff going on and it makes me sick to my stomach to think that my tribe and our elected officials are doing this stuff. Basically my tribe through other people is buying up land to build the toll bridge and they will be relying on some territorial law to connect the bridge to Tulsa's streets. My tribe has obtained easement rights on the southside of the river from the Jenks and my tribe has also been assigned contracts rights from Bob David who is a developer in Tulsa for the rights to property on the north side of the river from people named the Davenports and the Eastons and I believe this property is in front of housing additions named Hunter's Hills and Hampton Oaks. It makes me sick to see my tribe and the Jenks mayor and this Bob David guy laugh around here and say stuff like "we are going to show those citizens who's boss" and other things I've heard them say is that they they are putting the north side of the bridge between Sheridan and Yale right in front of housing additions just to screw with the homeowners who opposed their other bridge idea. I can't believe my tribal leaders have been sold on joining in this crap all to get a casino in Jenks. I might lose my job for this but I don't care anymore, I am sick of this stuff.
Wow! Thanks for posting!
I thought the possible alignments of a bridge put its north side either connecting to Riverside/Delaware, West of Yale, or directly into Yale. I've never heard of an alignment to the east of Yale. Care to elaborate?
The streets plan has some money for Riverside and Yale, so we wouldn't be *AS* screwed by Jenks/Creeks connecting their road into our street system. This still reeks to high heaven though.
I'd rather see a free bridge whose construction/maintenance is split between all parties.
Well, we could just do like QT did at 41st and plant a building or giant sculpture in the ROW.
Absolutely amazing! Thanks for posting Red Mesa.
YoungTulsan, I am looking at a detailed property map a couple of months old and going from the river heading east, the property owners are the City of Tulsa, John Deere, Davenport, Newton, Ramsey, etc... I know that the City of Tulsa has been unwilling thus far to sell its property or any easement rights over its property. I also know that John Deere (according to aritcles in the Tulsa World) has maintained in the past that it is unwilling to sell its property. The Davenport property is next in line and according to this map is directly in front of the Hunter's Hills residential housing addition on 121st Street. The Easton property is behind the Davenport property and adjoins the river. I don't know anything about the Newton and Ramsey properties.
I have never heard of a bridge between Yale and Sheridan. Of all of the proposed bridge location ideas that I have heard, this one makes the least sense of all.
I agree with YoungTulsan this still reeks to high heaven.
This sounds like a job for Mummolo.
Burt, you lurking out there?
Sorry. Not buying it.
Sounds like someone is angry at Bob David and posting for revenge. Perhaps a disgruntled Leadership Properties employee rather than a Creek Nation employee?
Since we do all of the planning, and engineering for Bob, and the land mentioned above is currently in the planning and engineering stages with NO provisions for any kind of bridge, I would say the post is false.
Several bridge plans for that area were conceived back in 2006, but lacked support and feasibility. It is still a dead issue and other plans for that land have already progressed with some near the permitting stages.
I see no information on Creek Nation interests on any of the above mentioned land. Besides, the EPA will not sanction a bridge in that area (somthing special lives just off the river there [:D]) .
Interesting Red Mesa....the STCC has been hearing rumblings of this same information. Do you (or anyone else) have any idea why this bridge is soooooooo important!? The Supreme Court issued a 9-0 decision that said no one can build the bridge without a vote of the people. Since this is true how can anyone build a bridge without a vote?? And the city of Tulsa said at this point in time no bridge can hook up to Tulsa roads...how are they going to get around that?? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
I would lean towards Gaspar's theory without more to back up what he said.
I was under the impression that strict engineering qualifications had to be made for the location of the bridge. You can't just pick a property and say "I want to build it there", at least not without significant changes to the cost of engineering and construction.
Does my memory serve correct? The Riverside alignment was more of a problem for the Wind River neighborhood as it abutted the neighborhood or even possibly took some homes out? Whereas the Yale alignment would be much worse for the street infrastructure?
Looking at a satellite map tells me that a linkup between Yale and Sheridan makes absolutely no sense at all.
Gaspar your prior post said "...the land mentioned above is currently in the planning and engineering stages with NO provisions for any kind of bridge..." Just to be clear, are you saying that Bob David does in fact own the prior Davenport property? Does he also own the Easton sod farm property as well? What kind of development will be going up?
I live out south near the affected area and I think it is common knowledge that Bob David owns the N.W. corner of 121st and Yale. It wouldn't suprise me if this land is as Gaspar said "under engineering and permitting." However, this isn't the land that Red Mesa is talking about. Red Mesa is talking about land that is south of 121st Street and east of Yale by a 1/16 to an 1/8 of a mile. I'm with Bat Bat. Gaspar could you please clarify which tract of land you are referring to. If it is in fact the latter, this is the first I have heard that Bob David owns this land and I think a lot of citizens that live out here would be interested in this information.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
I live out south near the affected area and I think it is common knowledge that Bob David owns the N.W. corner of 121st and Yale. It wouldn't suprise me if this land is as Gaspar said "under engineering and permitting." However, this isn't the land that Red Mesa is talking about. Red Mesa is talking about land that is south of 121st Street and east of Yale by a 1/16 to an 1/8 of a mile. I'm with Bat Bat. Gaspar could you please clarify which tract of land you are referring to. If it is in fact the latter, this is the first I have heard that Bob David owns this land and I think a lot of citizens that live out here would be interested in this information.
No there are other developers involved. I think they are planning a strip club, porno theater, and homeless shelter for that area. [}:)]
Interesting "group" of "new" posters.
Welcome to the forums.
With Tanner Consulting involved, I'm not surprised about the development options. I hear porno theaters and having to move walls at Wind River are your specialty Gaspar. I think its interesting that Gaspar chose to immediately shoot down Red Mesa, but when pressed with details which he should know since he says he is working on the project, he doesn't answer.
No offense new posters, but I would appreciate if someone familiar with the accusations and a long-standing TulsaNow poster would call an involved party and just find out what the deal is.
I'm not familiar enough to speak intelligently about it, nor do I really care. I would seldom drive by, let alone use such a bridge. For that matter, I would only be within 5 miles of it a couple times a month.
BUT, anytime a new thread is started on a relatively obscure topic and it draws this many new posters - my skepticism is spiked. Again, no offense. It is the nature of the internet.
I also don't buy this.
The Creek Nation said they are not moving forward with plans for the bridge and so did the city of Jenks. And as for the tribe doing this to get a casino in Jenks, that doesn't even make sense. The tribe has a casino directly across the river they are planning on spending half a billion dollars on. They don't need a casino in Jenks.
In fact if for some strange reason the tribe wanted casinos on both sides of the river they already own the land in Tulsa on the west bank of the river just north of 91st, literally across the street from Jenks and the Riverwalk and directly across the river from the casino under construction. They could open a casino there tomorrow if they wanted.
What's more if the tribe wanted a casino inside of Jenks they certainly would not ask Jenks for permission, they would be outright offended as a sovereign nation that anyone would think they should. Once the tribe gets the BIA to place land in reserve inside the Creek Nation (which is all of Jenks and most of Tulsa), they can open open a casino with no questions asked, local governments have no say.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
I also don't buy this.
The Creek Nation said they are not moving forward with plans for the bridge and so did the city of Jenks. And as for the tribe doing this to get a casino in Jenks, that doesn't even make sense. The tribe has a casino directly across the river they are planning on spending half a billion dollars on. They don't need a casino in Jenks.
In fact if for some strange reason the tribe wanted casinos on both sides of the river they already own the land in Tulsa on the west bank of the river just north of 91st, literally across the street from Jenks and the Riverwalk and directly across the river from the casino under construction. They could open a casino there tomorrow if they wanted.
What's more if the tribe wanted a casino inside of Jenks they certainly would not ask Jenks for permission, they would be outright offended as a sovereign nation that anyone would think they should. Once the tribe gets the BIA to place land in reserve inside the Creek Nation (which is all of Jenks and most of Tulsa), they can open open a casino with no questions asked, local governments have no say.
The Creek already own land North of the RiverWalk I believe. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it, because another one of our developers was trying to work a deal with them to build some high-end condo's there that fell through.
I'll see Bob today. I'll ask him, if I get the chance.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
No offense new posters, but I would appreciate if someone familiar with the accusations and a long-standing TulsaNow poster would call an involved party and just find out what the deal is.
I'm not familiar enough to speak intelligently about it, nor do I really care. I would seldom drive by, let alone use such a bridge. For that matter, I would only be within 5 miles of it a couple times a month.
BUT, anytime a new thread is started on a relatively obscure topic and it draws this many new posters - my skepticism is spiked. Again, no offense. It is the nature of the internet.
Aww, I wanted this to be "Mummolo'd"
What is a "new" poster any? So my questions and opinions don't count until I have posted over 500 times?
Someone started this thread about the bridge being located on a specific piece of property that I had not heard of before. The bridge is of concern to me as I live in the affected area. I believe Gaspar said (in summary) that he didn't buy the alleged bridge story on this piece of land because he was working on the design and engineering work for Bob David who owns the property. I politely asked a few questions of Gaspar about his statements. Gaspar then (in summary again) didn't answer the questions I asked and instead said that a "porno theater" was being built on the specific piece of land. Did I think Gaspar was serious? No. But Gaspar is the one who claimed to be "in the know" and when questioned on substance he has no response.
Gaspar may in fact be a long time poster on this forum. But I think he is confused on the piece of property he is talking about. I went down to the county land records office today and guess what Bob David "does not" own the Davenport property that is the subject of this thread. The Davenports own the property. That isn't to say that Bob David might not have a contract to buy the property sometime soon.
So Gaspar, you're the one that said that you were working on this project for Bob David on this specific piece of property (the Davenport property) and that it didn't involve the bridge. So again, let me ask you a few questions:
Were you mistakenly referring to the property on the NW corner of 121st and Yale because it is common knowledge that Bob David owns that property?
If you are in fact referring to the Davenport property, does Bob David usually do engineering and design work on property that he doesn't own (at least he doesn't own yet)?
And, if you are in fact referring to the Davenport property, some of us out here in South Tulsa would like to know what kind of development Bob David has planned?
let's get some things straight here. There is no "NW corner of 121st/Yale"....that is already occupied by Wind River.
Now there IS a northwest corner of Riverside/Delaware and 121st. Just whip out Google Earth and look.
Google maps doesn't even show Wind River built.
Wind River is located at what I would call 121st and Riverside, not 121st and Yale.
NW corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by Leadership Properties a/k/a Bob David.
NE corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by SDV/RP a/k/a the Couzins family.
SE corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by John Deere Landscapes.
SW corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by City of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
What is a "new" poster any? So my questions and opinions don't count until I have posted over 500 times?
Your opinions and questions certainly matter. You are free to post anything you want and generally will get positive responses. New people are welcome.
HOWEVER, just like any other stranger - I do not trust unsupported facts from people I do not know. When you post regularly on here or otherwise have a reputation for truthfulness (or otherwise), I can get a feel for what weight to give any statement of fact you render. The fact is I don't know if Red Mesa is a Creek employee or someone with alternative motives. Hence, with no source, backup or proven credentials for his assertions I give it the same weight as any other stranger.
And that is to say I do not trust it. Not that (s)he is a liar, or being malicious. But if you trust every internet rumor at face value things would get ugly fast.
I'm not calling BS, I simply do not know. Hence, I suggested someone that I do trust should call a party involved and get the info from the horses mouth.
Cannon Fodder thanks for clarifying. I completely understand. I have no idea if Red Mesa is just making up stuff or not. Since I live out near the bridge, I am obviously interested in any info on the bridge and any info on new developments out south.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
Wind River is located at what I would call 121st and Riverside, not 121st and Yale.
NW corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by Leadership Properties a/k/a Bob David.
NE corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by SDV/RP a/k/a the Couzins family.
SE corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by John Deere Landscapes.
SW corner of 121st and Yale = Property owned by City of Tulsa.
oh ok, so starting at the NW corner of 121st and yale, they are going to build a bridge over wind river? [}:)] omg this is getting deep now. why don't we just start the bridge building at 121st/sheridan?
The bridge is a North (connection point disputed) to South (131st and Yale Place) bridge over the Arkansas River.
City of Jenks wants the north connection point to be 121st and Yale.
STCC wants the north connection point to be 121st and Riverside.
Red Mesa who started all of this said (paraphasing) that the City of Jenks is now working with the Creek Nation to put the north connection point at 121st between Sheridan and Yale.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
What is a "new" poster any? So my questions and opinions don't count until I have posted over 500 times?
Your opinions and questions certainly matter. You are free to post anything you want and generally will get positive responses. New people are welcome.
HOWEVER, just like any other stranger - I do not trust unsupported facts from people I do not know. When you post regularly on here or otherwise have a reputation for truthfulness (or otherwise), I can get a feel for what weight to give any statement of fact you render. The fact is I don't know if Red Mesa is a Creek employee or someone with alternative motives. Hence, with no source, backup or proven credentials for his assertions I give it the same weight as any other stranger.
And that is to say I do not trust it. Not that (s)he is a liar, or being malicious. But if you trust every internet rumor at face value things would get ugly fast.
I'm not calling BS, I simply do not know. Hence, I suggested someone that I do trust should call a party involved and get the info from the horses mouth.
I'm not saying that Red Mesa is lying, but, my guess would be that person, if they are being truthful, is a Creek Nation Casino employee. I know a couple of people that work there in management/accounting capacities and from what they say the rumor mill can be wild in that place.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
The bridge is a North (connection point disputed) to South (131st and Yale Place) bridge over the Arkansas River.
City of Jenks wants the north connection point to be 121st and Yale.
STCC wants the north connection point to be 121st and Riverside.
Red Mesa who started all of this said (paraphasing) that the City of Jenks is now working with the Creek Nation to put the north connection point at 121st between Sheridan and Yale.
a connection point at 121st/yale is stupid, and impossible since Tulsa has indicated they don't want the bridge and they have total control of access at 121st/yale. If that was county road at that point it would be different, but it is Tulsa on both sides of the road there.
121st/riverside is the more logical connection point, but the same access problems are there.
considering that some light commercial is going up at 121st/sheridan, I suspect the same light commercial is going up at 121st/yale.
JF, sorry if Gaspar gave you the jitters. At least he didn't charge you for them.
I'm still jitter free for the time being. I wish Gaspar would respond. I would be delighted to her about another development just to the south and to the east of 121st and Yale. I would not be so glad to hear about a bridge at that location. I might start jittering again and require shock treatments.
121st & Sheridan (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20174068&BRD=2754&PAG=461&dept_id=574062&rfi=6%22)
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
121st & Sheridan (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20174068&BRD=2754&PAG=461&dept_id=574062&rfi=6%22)
and if you want to pay Tulsa taxes there will be a similiar development on the NW corner of 121st/sheridan. everything south of 121st looks really flood prone.
quote:
Originally posted by Jitter Free
I'm still jitter free for the time being. I wish Gaspar would respond. I would be delighted to her about another development just to the south and to the east of 121st and Yale. I would not be so glad to hear about a bridge at that location. I might start jittering again and require shock treatments.
Probably not wise for him to expand at length on the issue if he does work for Bob David. You might try communicating via PM instead of trying to carry on public discourse on the issue.
Hey, I wanna know too, but a public forum might not be the appropriate venue.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
121st & Sheridan (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20174068&BRD=2754&PAG=461&dept_id=574062&rfi=6%22)
Just feels WEIRD and WRONG reading about a development like this given the current economic situation.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
121st & Sheridan (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20174068&BRD=2754&PAG=461&dept_id=574062&rfi=6%22)
and if you want to pay Tulsa taxes there will be a similiar development on the NW corner of 121st/sheridan. everything south of 121st looks really flood prone.
I don't think 121st was a very effective levee during the excessive water of the late 80s. I expect sometime to have to do another flood buyout.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
I don't think 121st was a very effective levee during the excessive water of the late 80s. I expect sometime to have to do another flood buyout.
I wouldn't be surprised. Most of those places along the river down there look like disasters waiting to happen. I wouldn't buy a house there. Of course, I'm the idiot that refused to buy a house in 2000 or 2001 because of the coming economic difficulty, so what do I know?
Sorta like that development in Bixby over on Mingo and Garnett where there are houses lower than the road right next to a road sign that says "Caution: High Water" or something to that effect. [B)]
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
121st & Sheridan (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20174068&BRD=2754&PAG=461&dept_id=574062&rfi=6%22)
and if you want to pay Tulsa taxes there will be a similiar development on the NW corner of 121st/sheridan. everything south of 121st looks really flood prone.
I don't think 121st was a very effective levee during the excessive water of the late 80s. I expect sometime to have to do another flood buyout.
AMEN! People who are buying these huge homes in that area didn't do their homework. That entire area was under water with both floods in the 1980s. I love the homes and love the neighborhoods, but that's in a flood plain.
buying anything south of 111th is asking for trouble flood wise. When you take that little dip on memorial south of 111th into the river basin you know things can't be good. There was a reason all they ever did there was grow sod for decades.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Just feels WEIRD and WRONG reading about a development like this given the current economic situation.
Down economy = cheaper labor. A global slowdown means commodity prices are dropping = cheaper building supplies. A general slowdown in Tulsa means the various agencies will be more willing to work with you to get things done.
The economic slow down is temporary, if there is a project that is not dependent on the economy picking up (arguably a casino is, where ROADS are not) or you can weather the storm until it does - NOW is the perfect time to start a project like this.
Too bad we aren't building the arena now, instead of hearing about estimates coming in above the line they would almost certainly be way below it.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Too bad we aren't building the arena now, instead of hearing about estimates coming in above the line they would almost certainly be way below it.
Good time to build a ballpark and everything else Kaiser has planned north of the tracks.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Just feels WEIRD and WRONG reading about a development like this given the current economic situation.
Down economy = cheaper labor. A global slowdown means commodity prices are dropping = cheaper building supplies. A general slowdown in Tulsa means the various agencies will be more willing to work with you to get things done.
The economic slow down is temporary, if there is a project that is not dependent on the economy picking up (arguably a casino is, where ROADS are not) or you can weather the storm until it does - NOW is the perfect time to start a project like this.
Too bad we aren't building the arena now, instead of hearing about estimates coming in above the line they would almost certainly be way below it.
The convention center expansion bids are coming in low...
Any word on construction scheduling on the River Development south of the Creek T'Pike?
It doesn't look like the earth movers have moved in awhile. Not exactly the best timing to be putting up another huge commercial development.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Any word on construction scheduling on the River Development south of the Creek T'Pike?
It doesn't look like the earth movers have moved in awhile. Not exactly the best timing to be putting up another huge commercial development.
Why do you say that? As has been noted materials costs may go down, energy costs down, etc. and its going to take a couple of years to get the thing done. It will be cheaper to build, and by the time they are done the economy will be on the upswing with people spending again. Perfect timing. Plus the young, wealthy demographics in that area cant be ignored. If your going to be building anything at all like this, anywhere in the country... that spots probably one of the best bets around. Many developers look at that area and the 71st corridor and are floored that areas with such great demographics exists in the midwest.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Any word on construction scheduling on the River Development south of the Creek T'Pike?
It doesn't look like the earth movers have moved in awhile. Not exactly the best timing to be putting up another huge commercial development.
They are out there working every day. In the past two weeks they cleared all the vegetation from the Riverbank. Every time it rains much it seems they have to take a week or two off. Not that surprising since the area is such a major flood plain. They were working a lot up until the past few days with the rain.
The work they seem to be doing is digging the big lake and then raising the rest of the site with what they remove from there. Work is going on, but it doesn't seem they are in any hurry, that's for sure. I know they are waiting on the big pipeline and power lines to be moved from the site.
They did say they would have a year of earthwork and they've only been working since March and have said they are well behind schedule because of all the rain this year.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Any word on construction scheduling on the River Development south of the Creek T'Pike?
It doesn't look like the earth movers have moved in awhile. Not exactly the best timing to be putting up another huge commercial development.
Why do you say that? As has been noted materials costs may go down, energy costs down, etc. and its going to take a couple of years to get the thing done. It will be cheaper to build, and by the time they are done the economy will be on the upswing with people spending again. Perfect timing. Plus the young, wealthy demographics in that area cant be ignored. If your going to be building anything at all like this, anywhere in the country... that spots probably one of the best bets around. Many developers look at that area and the 71st corridor and are floored that areas with such great demographics exists in the midwest.
All great reasons you cite why it should move forward. But, there are a lot of lenders who are putting the damper on construction and real estate investing at the moment.
However, the credit crunch is going to make it more difficult for tennants to get financing at the moment. Other troubling factor is Oklahoma seems to be a year or two behind the national curve of a boom or bust.
I like to think positive, but I'm thinking there are some retailers and developers involved in that project right now who are quaking in their boots at the moment. It's pretty contrary to be planning for expansion when there are economic indices which are saying "contraction".
Commodity prices are coming down globally, however, it's still not trickling down to the finished goods level and won't for some time. It's entirely possible that manufacturers may take the liberty of making more profit for awhile as their supplier's prices come down.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Any word on construction scheduling on the River Development south of the Creek T'Pike?
It doesn't look like the earth movers have moved in awhile. Not exactly the best timing to be putting up another huge commercial development.
They are out there working every day. In the past two weeks they cleared all the vegetation from the Riverbank. Every time it rains much it seems they have to take a week or two off. Not that surprising since the area is such a major flood plain. They were working a lot up until the past few days with the rain.
The work they seem to be doing is digging the big lake and then raising the rest of the site with what they remove from there. Work is going on, but it doesn't seem they are in any hurry, that's for sure. I know they are waiting on the big pipeline and power lines to be moved from the site.
They did say they would have a year of earthwork and they've only been working since March and have said they are well behind schedule because of all the rain this year.
Thanks for the 'splaination. I go by there once a week about 5pm on Mondays for a standing date w/ my daughter and hadn't seen the earth movers move in awhile, nor anything which looked like construction workers personal vehicles around the site.
I certainly don't want to be a wet blanket, but it's not the best national climate for large retail projects at the moment.
I spoke to a friend of mine who lives in the Hampton Oaks addition near 121st and Yale. My friend said that the "rumor" running around his neighborhood is that Bob David has/had a contract with the Davenports to buy their property and that he just assigned the contract to the Creek Nation and that they are supposed to close the deal in November.
well they can close whatever deal they want, but the only bridge they will be building is a bridge to no where.
QuoteOriginally posted by Gaspar
I'll see Bob today. I'll ask him, if I get the chance.
Gaspar~ Did you get a chance to ask Bob David about his plans concerning the Davenport property at 121st and if he had any information about the rumors regarding the newly proposed toll bridge and the Creek Nation?