Why is Utica Square so timeless and successful...why can't it be done in another part of Tulsa, why isn't a place like this being developed downtown or even converting a exisiting dated shopping center? Why are developers stuck on the "McDonald looks" of shopping center which really offer no draw other than "I need to go buy shoes". Perhaps this is the old school oil money..but I thought the story of Utica Square was interesting...
"The developers of Utica Square had the community in mind. The village-like design was developed to be inviting to the customer without alienating neighboring residents. This new concept was considered risky but Utica Square opened on May 22, 1952 as Tulsa's first suburban shopping center.
Helmerich & Payne, Inc. purchased Utica Square in 1964. Almost immediately, Mr. Walter H. Helmerich, III commissioned the planting of over 300 trees. He simply wanted to "make the Square beautiful." Today, Utica Square is not only known for its quality stores and restaurants but also its beautifully manicured gardens and trees.
Since its purchase by Helmerich & Payne, Utica Square has earned a reputation as the area's finest shopping center. This can be attributed to Helmerich & Payne's vested interest in the Tulsa community. Mr. Helmerich felt that a high concentration of quality merchants would greatly improve the retail industry in Tulsa. Utica Square began to attract the best local merchants as well as many popular national merchants.
This dynamic mix proved to be the key to Utica Square's success and is the reason why this trend continues today.
I don't have an answer but I can say it's the only mall in Tulsa I enjoy wandering around in.
I look forward to going to Utica Square. The other malls...not at all. I want in and out immediately.
It'd be wonderful to have another.
I love it too, it's a family tradition before Christmas to eat dinner there and take the kids pics with the nutcrackers. There is a good mix of vintage style and modern in the buildings. BUT lately the big mammer-jammer SUV's speeding around the parking lot could mow you down.
It can, but it takes a lot of up front cash to make. The "Tulsa Landing" project would be like utica square, but more scenic.
Every new developer that walks in our office wants to do a "Utica Square" type development, and we have started on many, but once you get into the nuts and bolts of floor-space, parking, and services, you find that we have both regulated and marketed ourselves away from being able to do this type of development.
The various jurisdictions want higher parking counts and wider lanes. The national retailers demand very specific space, design, and sign requirements most require significant rear service and trash access, and the only way they will compromise is if you are offering a space with established demographics.
If Utica Square opened today, without it's significant Demographic history, Saks, Restoration Hardware, Pier One, Williams-Sonoma, Pottery Barn, and most of the other national retailers wouldn't touch it because it couldn't meet their development requirements.
So what happens is that the developer has a good vision, but as the development progresses, the city, the banks, and the retailers interject their requirements, and you get what you get. You can't blame the developers, they are just trying to satisfy their customers.
If they refuse to compromise, it won't get built.
Also, keep in mind that the most important factor influencing the atmosphere at Utica Square is its location and high quality maintenance. It has several very severe flaws that are extremely problematic for its tenants, but they are very willing to compromise for the sake of doing business there.
I wish 5th night was all year long! [:P]
Gasper...thank you for that inside angle...! Very informative!
It is interesting. Utica square, the actual old buildings arent eye catching or upscale in appearance. If I were an out of towner driving by or were to show someone a picture of Utica Square (not showing the Sacks sign lol) I dont think anyone would immediately think "Oh, wow what a great, upscale shopping center". It can appear quite out dated actually. But when your actually there and walking around in it, its very enjoyable. Also the large trees and gardens add a lot and there is now a mixture of styles since new stuff has been added and remodeled. You wouldnt think it would be difficult to replicate or that its even all that unique. But in thinking about it... I cant think of a single other shopping center that you can drive completely around and enter, in several places, on all 4 sides. And its not fenced off or blocked off from whats around it. There is of course the obvious fact of its history and location, location, location, in a beautiful, wealthy part of town. I also think that being on a half mile street (I wish we could make more of those) instead of at a large intersection or off a wide street like you would find in South Tulsa, gives it a cozier feel and helps tie it in to whats around it.
Highland Park Village in Dallas is very similar, more upscale.
The area is a big reason Utica Square is what it is. It has a dense, more urban feel than other parts of town and it's surrounded by really nice older neighborhoods. It also has lots of mature trees and the Helmerich's put a lot of money into the landscaping that other owners would never do.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
I don't have an answer but I can say it's the only mall in Tulsa I enjoy wandering around in.
I look forward to going to Utica Square. The other malls...not at all. I want in and out immediately.
It'd be wonderful to have another.
Most malls don't have anything of interest to me unless I have a need for a specific product (like a pair of jeans). I like to get in and out and not waste time even though my time is not so scheduled that I can't waste some. When I do get to some place like Utica Square, I wonder how many of the shops generate enough business to stay open. Some shops are interesting enough to look around but I hardly ever buy anything. I also feel like I use as much gas looking for a place to park as I used getting there from sprawling suburbia. Then I want to wrap my car in foam to protect it from door dings. I don't try to get a space by the front door and I don't mind walking a bit. I usually walk about 2 miles during my lunch break just for the exercise. Utica Square is certainly more charming than the places like Woodland Hills but I generally only go to Utica Square when I can't think of something to buy for a birthday or Christmas present. Even then I usually meet with minimal success. I'm just a terrible shopper.
There are places I like to "window shop" but they don't usually occur at malls, quaint or otherwise. Places like Steve's Wholesale are fun for me. I also liked wandering through auto salvage (not junk, I was once informed) yards when they would allow you to do it. I usually go with something specific in mind and then just see other interesting stuff.
Utica badly needs a hotel. For that matter so does Brookside, and Cherry Street?
Why do the areas in Tulsa where visitors like to visit not have any hotels? In other cities these areas would be surrounded by hotels.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Utica badly needs a hotel. For that matter so does Brookside, and Cherry Street?
Why do the areas in Tulsa where visitors like to visit not have any hotels? In other cities these areas would be surrounded by hotels.
Not enough other business around there, and access to major highways is kinda limited.
Also, lack of vision? Tulsa's habit of liking the past too much and future too little?
Utica Square is an awesome shopping center and I don't even like shopping. Someone mentioned Highland Park Village in Dallas. Both are very similar but Utica's a lot bigger, although Highland Park Village is on a major push to be even more upscale, which is why they booted Harolds out. We spend a lot of time in Highland Park Village since we happen to live within a few blocks of it, but we'd probably go out of our way to go there, just like Utica is worth the trip. Southlake Town Square is very similar to Utica and has done well beyond anyone's expectation. I met the developer while in a graduate school class and I asked him if he was familiar with Utica Square and he said absolutely and spoke very highly of it. Not to say he got the idea from Utica Square but it's safe to say Utica is well known amongst high end developers.
BTW, I also happen to like Steve's Wholesale but I've never tried to decide should I got to Utica or Steve's...not really an apples to apples comparison from a shopping perspective.
quote:
Not enough other business around there, and access to major highways is kinda limited.
The situation around Utica Square is similar to the area around the Double Tree at Warren Place. There are two major hospitals within a mile of Utica Square and the actual amount of employment within a one mile radius of 21st and Utica is just over 17,000 with almost 750 employers. Compare that to 16,300 employees with almost 600 employers for the one mile radius around 61st and Yale. Additionally, both locations do not abut a major highway. So, I see no reason a hotel wouldn't work at Utica Square.
Edit: I forgot to include all of the touristy things there are around Utica versus 61st and Yale, not to mention proximity to downtown, TU, and even the fairgrounds.
A hotel would also serve well for St John. I've gotten numerous calls from out of towners wanting to know where the closet hotel to the hospital was. The lot where the old H&P building was would be a good place for one
I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle. While I agree that a hotel in the area would be nice, we need to find alternate transportation to the automobile to get there.
quote:
Originally posted by tshane250
The situation around Utica Square is similar to the area around the Double Tree at Warren Place. There are two major hospitals within a mile of Utica Square and the actual amount of employment within a one mile radius of 21st and Utica is just over 17,000 with almost 750 employers. Compare that to 16,300 employees with almost 600 employers for the one mile radius around 61st and Yale. Additionally, both locations do not abut a major highway. So, I see no reason a hotel wouldn't work at Utica Square.
Edit: I forgot to include all of the touristy things there are around Utica versus 61st and Yale, not to mention proximity to downtown, TU, and even the fairgrounds.
You sound like you have a pretty good hand on the demographics of the area. We should get a team together from these forums and build one.
Artist and Gaspar can work on the renderings. Cannon_Fodder, YoungTulsan, DSJeffries, and I are young enough that we could do some manual labor. Patric could handle the lighting, and RecycleMichael could handle utilities. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by tshane250
The situation around Utica Square is similar to the area around the Double Tree at Warren Place. There are two major hospitals within a mile of Utica Square and the actual amount of employment within a one mile radius of 21st and Utica is just over 17,000 with almost 750 employers. Compare that to 16,300 employees with almost 600 employers for the one mile radius around 61st and Yale. Additionally, both locations do not abut a major highway. So, I see no reason a hotel wouldn't work at Utica Square.
Edit: I forgot to include all of the touristy things there are around Utica versus 61st and Yale, not to mention proximity to downtown, TU, and even the fairgrounds.
You sound like you have a pretty good hand on the demographics of the area. We should get a team together from these forums and build one.
Artist and Gaspar can work on the renderings. Cannon_Fodder, YoungTulsan, DSJeffries, and I are young enough that we could do some manual labor. Patric could handle the lighting, and RecycleMichael could handle utilities. [:P]
Get me that Helmerich and Payne property and lets get started lol. I bet we could scrounge up a few investors to boot. If there were ever a hotel there on that spot, it would be THE hotel I would tell everyone to go to. Close to many attractions (Cherry Street, downtown, TU Fairgrounds, Philbrook, Woodward et al, Brookside, lots of businesses,hospitals...) is a beautiful area, visitors could walk right across the street to shop and eat, etc. I find it startling that there isnt one there already. It could be Tulsas premier, high end luxury hotel.
quote:
It could be Tulsas premier, high end luxury hotel.
I totally agree!
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
quote:
Originally posted by bigdtottown
[BTW, I also happen to like Steve's Wholesale but I've never tried to decide should I got to Utica or Steve's...not really an apples to apples comparison from a shopping perspective.
Agreed, Utica Square has very little I typically want (that I cannot get somewhere closer to home) whereas Steve's is much more interesting to me. Intended to be apples and oranges.
I also understand that Utica Square is very attractive to alot of other people and I am glad it is there for them.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
The new Super Target development was marketed as a "Utica Square South". That seems to have changed to the chagrin of the neighborhood behind it.
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
There was the one on 101st where Inteller is putting his Target.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
The new Super Target development was marketed as a "Utica Square South". That seems to have changed to the chagrin of the neighborhood behind it.
Hmmm. What I was thinking about was on the West side of Memorial a bit more South. I could have sworn I saw a sign for it and possibly something on the news about it.
Then again I might have just picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue.
They are putting a fitness center and some other big box stuff down further down on the west side, but it is not dense, walkable, or urban.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by tshane250
The situation around Utica Square is similar to the area around the Double Tree at Warren Place. There are two major hospitals within a mile of Utica Square and the actual amount of employment within a one mile radius of 21st and Utica is just over 17,000 with almost 750 employers. Compare that to 16,300 employees with almost 600 employers for the one mile radius around 61st and Yale. Additionally, both locations do not abut a major highway. So, I see no reason a hotel wouldn't work at Utica Square.
Edit: I forgot to include all of the touristy things there are around Utica versus 61st and Yale, not to mention proximity to downtown, TU, and even the fairgrounds.
You sound like you have a pretty good hand on the demographics of the area. We should get a team together from these forums and build one.
Artist and Gaspar can work on the renderings. Cannon_Fodder, YoungTulsan, DSJeffries, and I are young enough that we could do some manual labor. Patric could handle the lighting, and RecycleMichael could handle utilities. [:P]
Get me that Helmerich and Payne property and lets get started lol. I bet we could scrounge up a few investors to boot. If there were ever a hotel there on that spot, it would be THE hotel I would tell everyone to go to. Close to many attractions (Cherry Street, downtown, TU Fairgrounds, Philbrook, Woodward et al, Brookside, lots of businesses,hospitals...) is a beautiful area, visitors could walk right across the street to shop and eat, etc. I find it startling that there isnt one there already. It could be Tulsas premier, high end luxury hotel.
I've been saying that since the H&P building came down several years ago. PERFECT location for a hotel with upper floor condos right by St. John's and Utica Square, close to Cherry Street/Brookside, and with some amazing downtown views from that spot. Something tall like 20-25 stories would be great and add to the mini-skyline we have going in Midtown around Utica Square. There's even that plaza with the fountain right there that would make a nice main entrance.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle. While I agree that a hotel in the area would be nice, we need to find alternate transportation to the automobile to get there.
Putting the people right next door IS a solution, as they would be in walking distance. I realize adding a hotel/condos will inevitably add traffic, but it is probably the best solution anyways.
I guess the biggest problem with that area is that it really is filled to capacity, with the exception of the H&P lot. Once you fill that up, how do you add any more density (without demolishing Swan and Terwilliger homes)?
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle. While I agree that a hotel in the area would be nice, we need to find alternate transportation to the automobile to get there.
Putting the people right next door IS a solution, as they would be in walking distance. I realize adding a hotel/condos will inevitably add traffic, but it is probably the best solution anyways.
I guess the biggest problem with that area is that it really is filled to capacity, with the exception of the H&P lot. Once you fill that up, how do you add any more density (without demolishing Swan and Terwilliger homes)?
There's also the large parking lot on Utica just north of 19th, probably for future hospital expansion though. Then you have Wendy's, Goldie's, and some medical businesses along 21st...
That Wendys must make huge bank. Just think of how lucky you would have to be to have that piece of land for your own eating establishment :)
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle. While I agree that a hotel in the area would be nice, we need to find alternate transportation to the automobile to get there.
Putting the people right next door IS a solution, as they would be in walking distance. I realize adding a hotel/condos will inevitably add traffic, but it is probably the best solution anyways.
I guess the biggest problem with that area is that it really is filled to capacity, with the exception of the H&P lot. Once you fill that up, how do you add any more density (without demolishing Swan and Terwilliger homes)?
There are some small spots along Utica Av. going north but I think you could also fill in Utica Square. There are some parking lots on the southern edge that could easily accommodate multi-story structures filled with office/residential space and retail at the ground level. I can also see some of the structures that make up Utica Sq. being redeveloped. The bank at the corner: Goodbye. I don't see a drive-thru bank as an efficient use of land and the highest and best use of real estate at that corner. Utica Sq. could have their signature building on that corner.
Agreed.....but it is F&M bank....which I am sure holds H&P deposits!
I can tell some are probably not used to thinking urban redevelopment.[;)] I could see a midrise apartment/condo tower right over the Sacks for instance. That red brick condo tower to the east of Utica Square has a lot of property it could redevelop along with the properties across the street to the north of it. None of those things would risk any historic buildings or homes and with the right architecture, set backs, landscaping etc. would add to the cozy, upscale, laid back, urban character of the area.
While "you all" are planning for a dense urban neighborhood, I hope you are also planning for an effective public transportation system. Filling a few medium rise buildings will overload the streets in the area. Planning to have no parking without public transportation seems foolish.
Will the rest of the infrastructure such as water supply, sewers, etc handle the load or will you create the same problem as SE Tulsa with water and sewers being the new streets problem?
I am not against the idea. Just make sure that the obvious is not neglected.
There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area. A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain. That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.
I agree that public transit can always improve. Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area. A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain. That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.
I agree that public transit can always improve. Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.
Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't. I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area. A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain. That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.
I agree that public transit can always improve. Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.
Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't. I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.
Well if the services have to be improved in the area, so be it. Would be the same just about anywhere you wanted to add that kind of density,,, or sprawl. We cant just say,,, Nope, no more density in any other place except downtown. Remember to, there was a midrise tower where the Helmerich and Payne headquarters once was, and apartments where Utica Place is now. Replacing the one tower that is now gone with another one cant be all that disastrous, and adding 2 or 3 more in the area isnt likely to be too taxing.
As for density causing more traffic. Hogwash. We are not talking Hong Kong/Manhattan Island type density here. Was there a noticeable drop off when Helmerich and Payne moved? Has Utica Place caused congestion and traffic problems? How about the addition of the new Hospital expansion and doctors office tower? Hasnt brought 21st and Utica to a standstill.
Not to mention, if we are going to try and make mass transit and other modes of transportation other than cars, truly viable. We are going to need more, medium density nodes. Plus, if you live some where like Utica Place, you dont have to drive to the grocery store, you dont have to drive to the bank, may not have to drive to work, dont have to drive as much to shopping and dining out,,, and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic. Plus, once you get more nodes, being able to add mass transit into that mix to connect them, also help. You get to the point where you say... If your fretting about traffic, ITS BECAUSE YOUR DRIVING STUPID! lol.
You wont have to drive as much in those areas. And you wont really have to drive as much TO those areas because you may be living in or near a comparable node yourself (much of what you need will be nearby), and or can just take mass transit from one node to the other.
Yes, the transition from what we have to a "decent amount of density and density nodes/ decent mass transit" may be a bit tricky on many fronts. But, the alternative is worse. And what choce do we really have?
If you put exactly the same number of living, shoppin, office, hotel, etc. that is being talked about here for instance, in, lets say a more suburban type area in mid-town or near downtown. And those developments were more suburban in nature (houses instead of midrise). That would cause more traffic because people would indeed likely have to drive to every single thing. Including to possibly Utica Square. Now if we used those midrise developments to grow and enhance other potential walkable districts, that would be great too. But the Utica Square area is currently a rare showcase of a decent mix of offerings, from grocery, living, work, shops, restaurants, etc. and pedestrian friendly "medium" density. Would be nice to enhance it with the proper mix of a few more buildings to bring its potential into full fruition. Doing the 3 or 4 potential infill suggestions I mentioned would be the finishing touches to that area. Its almost unfortunate that there isnt more midrise living in that area for people to be able to take advantage of it. (midrise as in mostly 4-6 stories, Tulsa scale midrise in other words lol, with the occasional up to 15ish)
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
There's already a massive hospital, an outdoor mall, and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area. A few more developments aren't going to cause additional infrastructure strain. That's the point of infill--the infrastructure is already there, and you aren't building new roads and sewers further and further from the core.
I agree that public transit can always improve. Although Tulsa Transit does a good job now of servicing St. Johns and the surroundings.
Perhaps you have some specific knowledge about the size of the water, sanitary sewer, and electric service to the area. I don't. I would be concerned that existing massive hospital and several midrise office and residential towers in the immediate area may already have the infrastructure near its capacity. I wouldn't expect much change in the requirement for storm sewers.
Well if the services have to be improved in the area, so be it. Would be the same just about anywhere you wanted to add that kind of density,,, or sprawl. We cant just say,,, Nope, no more density in any other place except downtown. Remember to, there was a midrise tower where the Helmerich and Payne headquarters once was, and apartments where Utica Place is now. Replacing the one tower that is now gone with another one cant be all that disastrous, and adding 2 or 3 more in the area isnt likely to be too taxing.
As for density causing more traffic. Hogwash. We are not talking Hong Kong/Manhattan Island type density here. Was there a noticeable drop off when Helmerich and Payne moved? Has Utica Place caused congestion and traffic problems? How about the addition of the new Hospital expansion and doctors office tower? Hasnt brought 21st and Utica to a standstill.
Not to mention, if we are going to try and make mass transit and other modes of transportation other than cars, truly viable. We are going to need more, medium density nodes. Plus, if you live some where like Utica Place, you dont have to drive to the grocery store, you dont have to drive to the bank, may not have to drive to work, dont have to drive as much to shopping and dining out,,, and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic. Plus, once you get more nodes, being able to add mass transit into that mix to connect them, also help. You get to the point where you say... If your fretting about traffic, ITS BECAUSE YOUR DRIVING STUPID! lol.
You wont have to drive as much in those areas. And you wont really have to drive as much TO those areas because you may be living in or near a comparable node yourself (much of what you need will be nearby), and or can just take mass transit from one node to the other.
Yes, the transition from what we have to a "decent amount of density and density nodes/ decent mass transit" may be a bit tricky on many fronts. But, the alternative is worse. And what choce do we really have?
If you put exactly the same number of living, shoppin, office, hotel, etc. that is being talked about here for instance, in, lets say a more suburban type area in mid-town or near downtown. And those developments were more suburban in nature (houses instead of midrise). That would cause more traffic because people would indeed likely have to drive to every single thing. Including to possibly Utica Square. Now if we used those midrise developments to grow and enhance other potential walkable districts, that would be great too. But the Utica Square area is currently a rare showcase of a decent mix of offerings, from grocery, living, work, shops, restaurants, etc. and pedestrian friendly "medium" density. Would be nice to enhance it with the proper mix of a few more buildings to bring its potential into full fruition. Doing the 3 or 4 potential infill suggestions I mentioned would be the finishing touches to that area. Its almost unfortunate that there isnt more midrise living in that area for people to be able to take advantage of it. (midrise as in mostly 4-6 stories, Tulsa scale midrise in other words lol, with the occasional up to 15ish)
Nice rant.
If it's directed at me, please re-read my last line on my post in this thread of 10/18/2008: 10:42:18
Wasnt intended as a "rant" just stating some thoughts and opinions. Stating some things that set up a difference in belief for statements like... "Filling a few medium rise buildings will overload the streets in the area." I dont think they will. And
"Planning to have no parking without public transportation seems foolish." (Where you got that there wasnt going to be any new parking in the first place, I dont know. Wasnt mentioned one way or the other though I would prefer as little parking as possible) Next time I mention adding a few buildings somewhere I will also always add that we need to add public transportation to them or parking, electric, sewer, trash pick up, mail, additional teachers to the local schools perhaps, affordable housing, handicap accessibility, proper lighting and signage,etc. etc.
Artist:
Some ideas, thoughts, and opinions:
carltonplace, 10/17/2008: 11:01:23 "I'm not sure how much more traffic that intersection can handle."
SXSW, 10/17/2008: 14:44:03 "...Something tall like 20-25 stories would be great..."
YoungTulsan, 10/17/2008: 15:29:2008 "...I realize adding a hotel/condos will inevitably add traffic, but it is probably the best solution anyways."
SXSW, 10/17/2008: 16:01:45 "There's also a large parking lot on Utica just north of 19th, probably for future hospital expansion though."
OurTulsa, 10/17/2008: 17:07:55 "There are some small spots along Utica Av. going north but I think you could also fill in Utica Square. There are some parking lots on the southern edge that could easily accommodate multi-story structures filled with office/residential space and retail at the ground level. I can also see some of the structures that make up Utica Sq. being redeveloped. The bank at the corner: Goodbye. I don't see a drive-thru bank as an efficient use of land and the highest and best use of real estate at that corner. Utica Sq. could have their signature building on that corner."
You: and when you do drive places, you dont have to drive far which in itself alleviates over all traffic.
Me: but you still need a place to put that car.
I agree, no one actually said "no parking places" except me. There is a feeling among some on this forum that cars are evil and should be eliminated ASAP. Eliminating parking is one way to do that. Greatly reducing parking to the point of making cars impractical has been mentioned in another thread but I am not going to take the time to find it. What you have proposed as a couple or 4 to 5 story buildings will probably not have a large impact on any of the infrastructure. I think others have more grand plans in mind.
I would like to reiterate that I am not against the idea of developing the Utica Square area. There are already some big buildings etc in the area. As you said, if we need to upgrade the utilities, do it. I did not intend the discussion to get down to the level of how many PED-Xing signs will be needed. I do want to draw attention to the fact that planting a few large (20-25 story?) buildings may tax the existing infrastructure and that streets are not the only infrastructure to be considered.
Ok, thanks for the info.
As the discussion has moved to Utica Square, here are 4 things I would like to see there to add density:
1. Upscale hotel/condo tower at the H&P property. There is space behind that property to build an attached parking garage and meeting/conference facilities. A top floor restaurant there with some of the best skyline views in the city would be pretty cool.
2. F&M Bank at 21st & Utica could be moved and replaced with a retail "anchor" for Utica Square. Maybe the Border's Books further east on 21st would move?
3. Another restaurant, something new to Tulsa, at the last remaining open lot in Utica Square, at the SE corner by P.F. Chang.
4. Dense residential at the open space south of Utica Place by Cascia Hall along Utica. Who owns that piece of property anyway, the school?
Doesn't H&P still own the parking garage next to the Davis tower? Would be nice to renovate and expand it for hotel use.
By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements. 21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements. 21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.
What do they need to do to 21st? It's already 4 lanes. And Utica?
It could just be resurfacing, but they are included in the maps detailing the work to be done under the new streets plan. The actual intersection itself is also listed. Maybe a slight widening/extension of the turn lanes, and new traffic lights with better technology could help the intersection flow better. Maybe additional/improved sidewalks too?
It really isn't that bad right now, the traffic only gets moderately heavy during the work day. Nothing that could be considered a "traffic jam" ever occurs anywhere in this part of town.
As far as the resurfacing goes, the water line work has completely obliterated Utica between 31st and 41st. It is a pockmarked horror to drive on now. They need to resurface that stretch instead.
I'd rather see an intersection "improvement" instead of widening at 21st & Utica. Maybe brick pavers at the crosswalks or better lighting? That could be more of an enticement for Utica Square to build an anchor there at that corner instead of having a drive-thru bank that is setback from the intersection. Would also be nice for a hotel or whatever ends up going in at the vacant H&P property. That is a very urban-feeling intersection that could be even better.
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Originally posted by YoungTulsan
By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements. 21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.
Didn't they just do that? Like 2-3 years ago?
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Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements. 21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.
Didn't they just do that? Like 2-3 years ago?
There's been large construction projects on the NE and SW corners plus the office/condo building South of Utica Square so I'm sure some of the digging was to improve the infrastructure.
The bank on the corner is the bank that I use most and I go through the drive through at least twice a week. Where are you planning on moving that branch to. A lot of merchants at Utica Square use that branch.
That parking lot on the southeast corner of the Utica Square property is used for employee parking. And parking can be a problem, especially at lunchtime almost anywhere at U.S. except maybe on the backside of the old Dillards. A lot of people seem to like to eat lunch at Olive Garden.
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Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
By the way, you guys say 21st & Utica would need infrastructure improvements. 21st & Utica, 21st from Peoria to Lewis, and Utica from 21st to Terwilliger are all projects that will be done under the streets plan coming up for vote.
Didn't they just do that? Like 2-3 years ago?
I think they just had the street blocked for building construction at St Johns. They didn't tear up any streets for that construction for for the Utica Place construction either.
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Originally posted by joiei
The bank on the corner is the bank that I use most and I go through the drive through at least twice a week. Where are you planning on moving that branch to. A lot of merchants at Utica Square use that branch.
That parking lot on the southeast corner of the Utica Square property is used for employee parking. And parking can be a problem, especially at lunchtime almost anywhere at U.S. except maybe on the backside of the old Dillards. A lot of people seem to like to eat lunch at Olive Garden.
The bank can stay. Just build in the property above it. For that spot, nothing more than 5 or 6 stories, and yes add a level of parking or two behind it. You know, now that infill is becoming more and more a prospect in Tulsa, we have to get out of our suburban, and even teardown, mindset. In a city, land and air are both developable, sellable property. That bank has a lot of lucrative property right over its head. Same with those church parking lots downtown. They can keep the parking lots if they want, then sell the property over them... and end up with covered parking to boot lol.
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Originally posted by joiei
The bank on the corner is the bank that I use most and I go through the drive through at least twice a week. Where are you planning on moving that branch to. A lot of merchants at Utica Square use that branch.
That parking lot on the southeast corner of the Utica Square property is used for employee parking. And parking can be a problem, especially at lunchtime almost anywhere at U.S. except maybe on the backside of the old Dillards. A lot of people seem to like to eat lunch at Olive Garden.
I should have elaborated on my desire to remove the bank from the corner. I mean to suggest that that corner can accommodate more than just the bank and jewelry shop. I can see the building replaced (or added on to) with a multi-story structure built up to the corner. I do think the drive through component is a massive waste of space. I can see one lane for those who can't get out of their autos but right now that drive through facility is eight lanes wide and takes up as much if not more space in that valuable center as the bank and jewelry shop.
As far as displacing parking and parking shortages in Utica Sq. I have to reply with my usual: I never have a problem parking. I go there during lunch and on Saturdays and while sometimes I can't park in front of or near my primary destination I always find a place to park. Additional buildings could be built over parking or don't have to have a footprint such that they displace gobs of parking. With the slope on the backside of Utica Sq. I wonder if it would be easier to contstruct over parking.
I'm thinking about adding that mantra to my introduction. "Hi, my name is OurTulsa, I never have a problem parking. How are you?"
Hi Our Tulsa. My name is obese Tulsan (strange that our last names are so similar)! I bet you don't mind walking from your car to the destination.
You must not be from Tulsa.
It is a Tulsan's God given right to park at ground level by the front door. I think Target should install drive through ailes so I never have to leave my beloved car or use my feet like some sort of sucker.
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Originally posted by carltonplace
Hi Our Tulsa. My name is obese Tulsan (strange that our last names are so similar)! I bet you don't mind walking from your car to the destination.
You must not be from Tulsa.
It is a Tulsan's God given right to park at ground level by the front door. I think Target should install drive through ailes so I never have to leave my beloved car or use my feet like some sort of sucker.
Tulsans think they have a lot of other God given rights in their cars too that don't seem to apply much of anywhere else. Probably the subject for another thread.
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Originally posted by wavoka
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
Cornerstone Creek on the west side of Memorial north of the WalMart complex.
They have a sign up and some dirtwork started. They advertise lifestyle type stuff. I was stopped at the light at 111th and had a chance to write it down so I wouldn't forget.
Does anyone know how well Saks Fifth Avenue does at Utica? I have always wondered how they did in this market.
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Originally posted by Composer
Does anyone know how well Saks Fifth Avenue does at Utica? I have always wondered how they did in this market.
I rarely go in there, too rich for my blood. But one of my sisters probably buys enough clothes to keep them in good stead. I have always thought that store needed some windows and window displays to attract people in and show some sign of life. Otherwise it just looks like a dead, uninviting block or cave.
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Originally posted by Red Arrow
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Originally posted by wavoka
I seem to remember some plans for a Utica Square lite type project on South Memorial. Possibly around the 105th area.
Or was I dreaming?
Cornerstone Creek on the west side of Memorial north of the WalMart complex.
They have a sign up and some dirtwork started. They advertise lifestyle type stuff. I was stopped at the light at 111th and had a chance to write it down so I wouldn't forget.
Yep. I drove by there this weekend to see if there was anything to my memory. Saw that development and one a bit North, just across from the Spirit Event Center complex, named Avalon.
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Originally posted by Composer
Does anyone know how well Saks Fifth Avenue does at Utica? I have always wondered how they did in this market.
I've heard it does well, but it probably helps that it's not as large as some of the Saks in the big cities. Someone told me once they get a subsidy from Utica Square to stay open, not sure if that's true or not though. I would imagine if Nordstrom was to ever open a Tulsa store it would be at the river project in Jenks, if that ever gets off the ground. I doubt Tulsa could support more than a Saks in midtown and a Nordstrom in Jenks, in addition to 2 Dillards' and 2 Macys'. The local Miss Jackson's in Utica is very similar to Neiman Marcus, albeit smaller and more women's clothing-oriented but just as expensive.
It must do ok. A few years ago, Saks had a massive restructuring and closed many of their underperforming locations. Tulsa's store stayed open while much larger markets such as Kansas City and Minneapolis lost their only full-line stores.
I figure this thread would be the most relevant place to post this.
The Helmerich property on the NW corner of 21st & Utica is being cleaned up, apparently they are going to try to sell the property.
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Originally posted by YoungTulsan
I figure this thread would be the most relevant place to post this.
The Helmerich property on the NW corner of 21st & Utica is being cleaned up, apparently they are going to try to sell the property.
the NW corder of 21/utica is F&M bank...they are going to scrape that off?
The empty space on that side of the intersection, not the bank. Are you aware there is empty land there, or are you just trying to be abrasive?
I don't even know who owns it, but it has been talked about for a long time as a possible location for a new H&P headquarters?
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Originally posted by YoungTulsan
The empty space on that side of the intersection, not the bank. Are you aware there is empty land there, or are you just trying to be abrasive?
I don't even know who owns it, but it has been talked about for a long time as a possible location for a new H&P headquarters?
Thats because HP owns it silly. It was the location of their headquarters and the intention was to build there again. They tore the old building down and "temporarily" moved downtown until the new headquarters could be built. Apparently they like it downtown so have changed their mind and are selling that property?