Ok, I have to admit that I am a total neophyte when it comes to money and investing. Have mostly spent what money I have investing in my business and home. But now that the business has started making me decent money, would like to invest in the stock market. Its seems like its been too high until now lol. So now would seem to me to be a good time to get in. I have a small IRA already, but nothing else market wise. Am thinking about getting in towards the end of next week by then the market should have hit bottom or be very near it.
How does one go about putting money in the market? Who do I go talk to? What kind of things should I pay attention to, fees, commissions, etc? Who and what do you use? I am thinking about an initial 10,000$ to kind of experiment and learn with so am sure that will limit what I can get into.
These are my own personal thoughts, but do you have an emergency fund set up yet? If not, I highly suggest NOT investing in the stock market until you have at least 3 to 6 months expenses in the bank.
If you have sufficient savings, I would suggest a certified financial planner, and I would interview a few of them before you decide. Shop around and find someone you can trust. As with any business relationship, communication is key and you should find someone who you think you can talk honestly with and someone who shares your values vis-a-vis money.
There are a lot of good buys on the horizon...
If you are getting into a market there are several version on rule of thumbs for fees and commissions. Know this: no-load funds perform just as well as load funds. Statistically and in all regards, there i no difference in performance. So why buy a load fund?
Also, it is clearly beneficial to minimize the fee ratio of a fund. Many investors consider anything over 1% to be too high. I will, from time to time, go higher than that to get into a new fund, or an unique market fund. But it makes sense to minimize your investment fees and commissions.
I have and had accounts with many different places. I have not had a negative experience really at the ones I have chosen. If you are interested in funds primarily, Janus has a wide range available and excellent interface for researching them. Since they are all their funds, they have no real interest in "selling" you one over another.
There are great FAQ on investment funds. Load, no load, fees, commissions, ROTH IRA, Traditional IRA, index funds, what ratios you want and everything else. I'd read them for yourself over taking my advice. OR, if you are willing to pay more fees and risk being "sold" investments, find someone with a license to invest for/help you. But remember, every fee you pay comes out of any profits you may have and is tact onto any losses you incur.
- - -
Buy low, sell high. But remember, it can always go lower. Trust me. That extra cash I threw in a couple weeks back when those other fools were selling... [B)]
Suzy Orman says no one is going to care as much about your money as you do. Stay away from certified financial planners. They tend to take more care of themselves than their clients. It's a waste of money and maybe worse.
You will do a better job managing your own investments.
Use Schab and buy No Load Mutual Funds with 4 or 5 star Morningstar ratings. There are charts on Schwab web site telling you how to allocate your money into different funds. There are also guides there to help you decide what your time horizon for cashing it in is and how aggressive or conservative you want to be.
You can get a free account at Morningstar where you can get ratings on Mutual Funds.
Don't try market timing. Make a long range plan using Schwab's guides and stick to it.
Hasn't the market averaged 8 percent a year over the long haul? Or was 8 percent real estate?
If the market doesn't fall completely apart, this might be a very good time to buy.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
These are my own personal thoughts, but do you have an emergency fund set up yet? If not, I highly suggest NOT investing in the stock market until you have at least 3 to 6 months expenses in the bank.
If you have sufficient savings, I would suggest a certified financial planner, and I would interview a few of them before you decide. Shop around and find someone you can trust. As with any business relationship, communication is key and you should find someone who you think you can talk honestly with and someone who shares your values vis-a-vis money.
There are a lot of good buys on the horizon...
I agree especially with the emergency fund.
If you feel confident enough, I'd skip the middle man and buy into no-load index funds, especially ones like Vanguard's. The expenses on Vanguard funds are incredibly low, and if you buy into Russell 2000, Dow, S&P 500 index funds, etc., you will be buying into funds that match those indexes, instead of having money manager trying to beat the market, which they seldom ever do.
Right now would be a good time to dollar-cost average your buying into funds while the market is still searching for its bottom.
I'd avoid the market. I put in $20,000 in 1998, it grew to $30,000 in early 2001 in the big market boom and then it crashed after 09-11-01 and it never got back to where it was before. My 401K is in the dumper after 10 years it lost alot of money. My planner said even if the market goes down and has corrections in the long haul the market is always going up and you can't lose. This current crisis is one that no one could of predicted, it started with the collapse of the housing market and now it's all over the globe. I don't think the market will ever recover. Some people believe the market is fearful of a Obama presidency and his huge new taxes on investments and business that investors are just throwing in the towel now.
The best place for money IMO is in the bank. It's now insured up to $250,000. The intrest rates are the pits but it's better than neg. growth like what the market is doing. Cash is King... A bank CD could be the best way to go. Real estate could be a wise buy if you buy when the housing market bottoms out and a cheap investment grows quickly. This current mess is global. I think alot of this crash started as the result of high oil prices, (or the high oil prices all year long helped play a big roll). Many people could not buy or spend as much because they had to dump so much money into the fuel tank. When people have to pay $100.00 just to have fuel in the car that's $100.00 that can't be spent on other items and the money from that goes over to OPEC countries. After a few months that $4.00 a gallon gasoline starts to affect other things. People quit traveling so hotels had to lay off, restaurants lost business and so on...[xx(]
Make out a check to "Conan71" and I will take care of all the picky little details for you, Artist. [;)]
IP and RW have the best advice for what I assume is your level of expertise and comfort. Right now is a buyer's market, but it's going to be a wild and wooly ride for the next year.
HT has some good advice, but only if you want to worry about managing your own investments and it sounds as if you don't have the knowledge or time to mess with it, especially if you are going to be worried about the state of your investments constantly.
I do believe there are some community extension classes through TCC which cover personal investing, couldn't hurt to take one or two, just so you can become a little more savvy on it.
Per sauerkraut's comments:
1) If you want to get into real estate remember that it is a business. There is insurance, taxes, people you have to deal with, things to get fixed, etc. The easiest way would be to get into a REIT (which are all in the tank atm) or other company that deals with property.
I've seen too many people think a rent house would be free money with no work.
2) Bank accounts are stable. HOWEVER, in the long the markets make 7% and a bank account makes 2%. 5% extra per year compounding equates to a ton of money.
BUT, don't put money in the market you might need in the near term. Assume it could all be lost and/or you won't be able to touch it for 10 year. In the long run, the numbers say investing is a better choice.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
This current crisis is one that no one could of predicted, it started with the collapse of the housing market and now it's all over the globe.
no that is horse ****.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Per sauerkraut's comments:
1) If you want to get into real estate remember that it is a business. There is insurance, taxes, people you have to deal with, things to get fixed, etc. The easiest way would be to get into a REIT (which are all in the tank atm) or other company that deals with property.
I've seen too many people think a rent house would be free money with no work.
2) Bank accounts are stable. HOWEVER, in the long the markets make 7% and a bank account makes 2%. 5% extra per year compounding equates to a ton of money.
BUT, don't put money in the market you might need in the near term. Assume it could all be lost and/or you won't be able to touch it for 10 year. In the long run, the numbers say investing is a better choice.
Yes, but I was thinking of a house that you'd live in. A person has to live somewhere and with cheap houses on the market, it does not make much sense to rent. Buy a house, live in it, fix it up as you live in it and sell it for a profit in 3,4, or 5 years. Tulsa has some home buys now priced way under market value and yes, some homes need work, but if you live in it you can take your time and fix it up and in a few years the housing market will bounce back and you can make a good profit when you sell it. It's rare to have a down market like this for real estate, it does not happen very much. For houses it's a buyers market. It's something to take advantage of. Columbus, Ohio has homes that at one time sold for $80,000 are now $45,000.
With real estate correcting, I don't think there's much habitable selling for "under" market value. The market IS correcting. Due to tighter credit, home values will have to eventually recede even in Oklahoma and Texas even though our root enonomies are strong at the moment due to ag and energy industries.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Per sauerkraut's comments:
1) If you want to get into real estate remember that it is a business. There is insurance, taxes, people you have to deal with, things to get fixed, etc. The easiest way would be to get into a REIT (which are all in the tank atm) or other company that deals with property.
I've seen too many people think a rent house would be free money with no work.
2) Bank accounts are stable. HOWEVER, in the long the markets make 7% and a bank account makes 2%. 5% extra per year compounding equates to a ton of money.
BUT, don't put money in the market you might need in the near term. Assume it could all be lost and/or you won't be able to touch it for 10 year. In the long run, the numbers say investing is a better choice.
I think this echos Cramers comments the other day that were grossly taken to the extreme. Any sane person knows that if you aren't planning on being in the market for AT LEAST 5 years, the stock market is NOT the place to put your money.
His statement was common sense, but people extrapolated far beyond what he meant.
You know Artist you may want to consider a Roth IRA.
My partner got started a little late and our accountant said it would make sense for him to focus on funding a Roth instead of an IRA. He's been at it a few years now and he has already accummulated a nice little pile. (The last time I looked at statements was April. I won't look at statements again until the market comes back.)
When you draw down your Roth account it comes out tax free. You get taxed when you draw down your IRA.
Now, if you can afford it you might want to do both an IRA (for the tax benefit) and a Roth.
Buy both Stock Mutual Funds and Bond Mutual Funds. Bonds are very conservative and old adage was that Bonds go up when Stocks go down and vice versa. How much you put into one or the other depends on how aggressive or conservative you are and that depends on when you want to take your money out.
You may also want to get some advice about the value of the artworks in your estate. If you have an heir you may unknowingly be creating a tax burden on them by leaving your artworks to them. Artists need advice from an accountant in that regard.
You already have real estate in your portfolio but we may soon have more bargain opportunities in real estate.
You will of course want to keep cash. How much cash depends on how conservative or aggressive you are. Most of my cash is in CDs. I use ONB Bank here in Tulsa for some of it. They seem to have the best CD rates in our area.
Great fortunes and art collections were put together during the Depression. Peggy Guggenheim put the core of her collection together during WWII buying from European Jews.
With your expertise in art you might find some buys there. Like an Alexander Hogue you find at a garage sale and they don't know what they have. Or Frankoma and they don't know what they have.
I had a friend that found a Joseph Cornell artwork mixed into a lot that he bought at auction for $50. They didn't know it was a Cornell. They just thought it was a box. I forget how much they valued his Cornell for, but he traded it for an old master painting.
When everyone says do this, don't. When everyone says real estate will never go down, stay away from real estate, et cetera, et cetera.
I have been investing in decorative commemorative plates for a while. They not only hold value, but add conversation to dinner parties.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Per sauerkraut's comments:
1) If you want to get into real estate remember that it is a business. There is insurance, taxes, people you have to deal with, things to get fixed, etc. The easiest way would be to get into a REIT (which are all in the tank atm) or other company that deals with property.
I've seen too many people think a rent house would be free money with no work.
2) Bank accounts are stable. HOWEVER, in the long the markets make 7% and a bank account makes 2%. 5% extra per year compounding equates to a ton of money.
BUT, don't put money in the market you might need in the near term. Assume it could all be lost and/or you won't be able to touch it for 10 year. In the long run, the numbers say investing is a better choice.
I think this echos Cramers comments the other day that were grossly taken to the extreme. Any sane person knows that if you aren't planning on being in the market for AT LEAST 5 years, the stock market is NOT the place to put your money.
His statement was common sense, but people extrapolated far beyond what he meant.
That's correct if things stayed normal. I'm now farther behind than I was in 1998. I got 10 years in the market with nothing to show for it. I'd have made more money if I kept it in a passbook savings account. My 401K is a Putman Voyager account and that never did good, today I can't even look at it, since 09-11-01 that account never recovered. My planner kept saying to just leave it alone. This current mess is global and the market is all over the place, up and down 400 points in one day.
Buy low and sell high.
This is from a guy who, for many years, invested his money in race cars. I followed that advice, but in the inverse order.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
That's correct if things stayed normal. I'm now farther behind than I was in 1998. I got 10 years in the market with nothing to show for it. I'd have made more money if I kept it in a passbook savings account. My 401K is a Putman Voyager account and that never did good, today I can't even look at it, since 09-11-01 that account never recovered. My planner kept saying to just leave it alone. This current mess is global and the market is all over the place, up and down 400 points in one day.
[/quote]
A big part of your problem is your fund. I'm not sure which Putnam Voyager fund you have, but Morningstar has them with either one-star or two-star ratings -- the lowest ones available.
Sounds like you need to ditch your planner, and pronto. Anyone who's handing out one- and two-star funds doesn't deserve to be in the business. Lord knows there are plenty of better funds out there. At least get funds that hit the market average.
Thanks for all the pointers. By the time I got midway into Cannons post my eyes glazed over and my brain started locking up. By the time I got to the end of the posts... well I think I am more confused and afraid of doing the wrong thing now than before lol.
Called the old man and talked to him for a bit while I was headed to work. I gather that he is pretty good about this kind of thing. He and my brother got the mathematical, structured thinking, mechanical putting things together, side of the gene pool while I got the scatterbrained, creative, daydreamer genes lol. Asked him how he was doing in the market. Said they had gotten out about a year ago but are now steadily buying back in, just putting in a chunk every week. Told him that I was thinking of investing and he said they would be
in town in a few weeks and he would think of something and bring some stuff for me to pick through? I gather that perhaps he just picks stocks and buys them on his own or something. Again, my brain started locking up. Soooo, now that I have asked I guess I will probably try to to what he suggests, It would be rude not to and we just dont want to go there lol. Or do two things, part in whatever he suggests and also some in a general fund of some sort. I just dont want to do anything where I will have to pay attention or do to much thinking lol. Will take away from my daydreaming/creative time. [:D]
Whatever you do, don't listen to sauerkraut's advice.
He has no idea what he's talking about. He get's all his knowledge of the world from Michael Savage.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Thanks for all the pointers. By the time I got midway into Cannons post my eyes glazed over and my brain started locking up. By the time I got to the end of the posts... well I think I am more confused and afraid of doing the wrong thing now than before lol.
Called the old man and talked to him for a bit while I was headed to work. I gather that he is pretty good about this kind of thing. He and my brother got the mathematical, structured thinking, mechanical putting things together, side of the gene pool while I got the scatterbrained, creative, daydreamer genes lol. Asked him how he was doing in the market. Said they had gotten out about a year ago but are now steadily buying back in, just putting in a chunk every week. Told him that I was thinking of investing and he said they would be
in town in a few weeks and he would think of something and bring some stuff for me to pick through? I gather that perhaps he just picks stocks and buys them on his own or something. Again, my brain started locking up. Soooo, now that I have asked I guess I will probably try to to what he suggests, It would be rude not to and we just dont want to go there lol. Or do two things, part in whatever he suggests and also some in a general fund of some sort. I just dont want to do anything where I will have to pay attention or do to much thinking lol. Will take away from my daydreaming/creative time. [:D]
It really isn't that difficult. Follow a couple simple rules:
1. Buy mutual funds, not individual stocks. A mutual fund is made up of several different stocks that a manager picks based on the philosophy of the fund. This immediately keeps you diversified so you don't have all your money in one stock/company. Some mutual funds are made up of just a couple stocks, some are made up of several hundred stocks.
2. Don't get into mutual funds that require a 'load'. A load is a fee based on the amount of your transaction. A 'front load' means you pay a fee based on the amount of your purchase. A 'back load' means you pay a fee based on the amount of your sell. There are plenty of companies who don't charge loads. The load is simply a commission paid to the broker/company.
3. Buy mutual funds with low expenses. ALL mutual funds charge annual expenses, with the average being around 1.25%. You never see these expenses come from you because it is simply reflected in the price. Vanguard mutual funds are well known for the lowest expenses.
4. Buy index funds at first. An index fund simply mirrors a certain industry/area/location. i.e. a 500 index fund mirrors the S&P 500. A mid-cap index mirrors the mid-cap market. A bond market index mirrors a portion of the bond market, ......... Index funds also typically have the lowest annual fees because there is no trick to picking certain stocks. The index determines the companies the funds buys, so you don't need a ton of money to pay a manager. After you get more experience/comfortable with investing, you can get more narrowly focused with other mutual funds.
5. Investing is long term. None of us have lost a single penny unless you have sold stocks/mutual funds recently, which would have been really stupid. Remember, buy low sell high. Unfortunately, too many people see the market doing great and think 'I need in on this' and buy high. Then, when the market tanks, they panic and sell low.
6. Dollar cost average. In other words, after your initial investment, put yourself on a schedule of regular investing, say, so much $$ per month. This way, when the market it high, you buy fewer shares and when the market is low, you buy more shares. This is called dollar cost averaging. Most companies will allow you to do as little as $25 per month after your initial investment. The company will withdraw a certain amount from your checking/savings account on any day of the month you specify.
7. Learn how to invest. I really like Money magazine. They put things in easy to understand terms and give all kinds of investment advise.. $10 a year... you can't go wrong.
8. Also read "The Only Investment Guide "You'll Ever Need". Long before you ever invest a penny in the stock market or mutual funds, he provides advise on saving/spending money. A quick easy read.
Morningstar, Vanguard, Fidelity and lots of others have great websites for learning and advise.
Thanks a lot Wilbur, I like how you put all of that. Though "money/financial stuff" isnt something I have really been interested in, I suppose its not going to kill me to buckle down and learn something new on that front. An artist that knows about money and investing?...They may take away my membership card [:P] lol.
I like the "dollar cost averaging" idea. My sense of things is that the rapid fall may subside soon, then will go back up a bit, but then most of next year it will likely see a slow slide back down even further, then in 2010 the economy will start trucking along again. So from now till the beginning of 2010 will be "buying time".
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Thanks for all the pointers. By the time I got midway into Cannons post my eyes glazed over and my brain started locking up. By the time I got to the end of the posts... well I think I am more confused and afraid of doing the wrong thing now than before lol.
Called the old man and talked to him for a bit while I was headed to work. I gather that he is pretty good about this kind of thing. He and my brother got the mathematical, structured thinking, mechanical putting things together, side of the gene pool while I got the scatterbrained, creative, daydreamer genes lol. Asked him how he was doing in the market. Said they had gotten out about a year ago but are now steadily buying back in, just putting in a chunk every week. Told him that I was thinking of investing and he said they would be
in town in a few weeks and he would think of something and bring some stuff for me to pick through? I gather that perhaps he just picks stocks and buys them on his own or something. Again, my brain started locking up. Soooo, now that I have asked I guess I will probably try to to what he suggests, It would be rude not to and we just dont want to go there lol. Or do two things, part in whatever he suggests and also some in a general fund of some sort. I just dont want to do anything where I will have to pay attention or do to much thinking lol. Will take away from my daydreaming/creative time. [:D]
It really isn't that difficult. Follow a couple simple rules:
1. Buy mutual funds, not individual stocks. A mutual fund is made up of several different stocks that a manager picks based on the philosophy of the fund. This immediately keeps you diversified so you don't have all your money in one stock/company. Some mutual funds are made up of just a couple stocks, some are made up of several hundred stocks.
2. Don't get into mutual funds that require a 'load'. A load is a fee based on the amount of your transaction. A 'front load' means you pay a fee based on the amount of your purchase. A 'back load' means you pay a fee based on the amount of your sell. There are plenty of companies who don't charge loads. The load is simply a commission paid to the broker/company.
3. Buy mutual funds with low expenses. ALL mutual funds charge annual expenses, with the average being around 1.25%. You never see these expenses come from you because it is simply reflected in the price. Vanguard mutual funds are well known for the lowest expenses.
4. Buy index funds at first. An index fund simply mirrors a certain industry/area/location. i.e. a 500 index fund mirrors the S&P 500. A mid-cap index mirrors the mid-cap market. A bond market index mirrors a portion of the bond market, ......... Index funds also typically have the lowest annual fees because there is no trick to picking certain stocks. The index determines the companies the funds buys, so you don't need a ton of money to pay a manager. After you get more experience/comfortable with investing, you can get more narrowly focused with other mutual funds.
5. Investing is long term. None of us have lost a single penny unless you have sold stocks/mutual funds recently, which would have been really stupid. Remember, buy low sell high. Unfortunately, too many people see the market doing great and think 'I need in on this' and buy high. Then, when the market tanks, they panic and sell low.
6. Dollar cost average. In other words, after your initial investment, put yourself on a schedule of regular investing, say, so much $$ per month. This way, when the market it high, you buy fewer shares and when the market is low, you buy more shares. This is called dollar cost averaging. Most companies will allow you to do as little as $25 per month after your initial investment. The company will withdraw a certain amount from your checking/savings account on any day of the month you specify.
7. Learn how to invest. I really like Money magazine. They put things in easy to understand terms and give all kinds of investment advise.. $10 a year... you can't go wrong.
8. Also read "The Only Investment Guide "You'll Ever Need". Long before you ever invest a penny in the stock market or mutual funds, he provides advise on saving/spending money. A quick easy read.
Morningstar, Vanguard, Fidelity and lots of others have great websites for learning and advise.
You provided some good well thought out information.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I like the "dollar cost averaging" idea. My sense of things is that the rapid fall may subside soon, then will go back up a bit, but then most of next year it will likely see a slow slide back down even further, then in 2010 the economy will start trucking along again. So from now till the beginning of 2010 will be "buying time".
Don't try to 'time' the market. Most people who do fail horribly. Even the 'experts' on Wall Street don't know how to time the market. If you actually know when to buy and when to sell, you are in the wrong business.
Again, consistent long term investing is what proves to be the best approach.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I like the "dollar cost averaging" idea. My sense of things is that the rapid fall may subside soon, then will go back up a bit, but then most of next year it will likely see a slow slide back down even further, then in 2010 the economy will start trucking along again. So from now till the beginning of 2010 will be "buying time".
Don't try to 'time' the market. Most people who do fail horribly. Even the 'experts' on Wall Street don't know how to time the market. If you actually know when to buy and when to sell, you are in the wrong business.
Again, consistent long term investing is what proves to be the best approach.
Market timing was a big thing in the 1990's. I question about what they mean by "long term" I had my funds over 10 years and they are still way down (it's only a paper loss unless I sell them). However, like my investment guy always said the long range stock market arrow is always up, His chart went from the 1920's to 1997 and I bought my funds in may of '98. In all those years the market always went up with a few dips.[B)]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I like the "dollar cost averaging" idea. My sense of things is that the rapid fall may subside soon, then will go back up a bit, but then most of next year it will likely see a slow slide back down even further, then in 2010 the economy will start trucking along again. So from now till the beginning of 2010 will be "buying time".
Don't try to 'time' the market. Most people who do fail horribly. Even the 'experts' on Wall Street don't know how to time the market. If you actually know when to buy and when to sell, you are in the wrong business.
Again, consistent long term investing is what proves to be the best approach.
Market timing was a big thing in the 1990's. I question about what they mean by "long term" I had my funds over 10 years and they are still way down (it's only a paper loss unless I sell them).
It's because your funds stink. It's not because long-term investing isn't viable.
A bad fund will be as bad in the long term as it is in the short term.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I like the "dollar cost averaging" idea. My sense of things is that the rapid fall may subside soon, then will go back up a bit, but then most of next year it will likely see a slow slide back down even further, then in 2010 the economy will start trucking along again. So from now till the beginning of 2010 will be "buying time".
Don't try to 'time' the market. Most people who do fail horribly. Even the 'experts' on Wall Street don't know how to time the market. If you actually know when to buy and when to sell, you are in the wrong business.
Again, consistent long term investing is what proves to be the best approach.
Market timing was a big thing in the 1990's. I question about what they mean by "long term" I had my funds over 10 years and they are still way down (it's only a paper loss unless I sell them).
It's because your funds stink. It's not because long-term investing isn't viable.
A bad fund will be as bad in the long term as it is in the short term.
You could be right about that. The funds did real good at first. Then after 09-11-01 I only had 2-3 percent growth. I have MSF funds and a Putman Voyager ROTH IRA account. The ROTH was $20.00 a share when I bought them and today it's around $15.00 a share. I'm no investment expert that is what my investment guy is supposed to do. My best fund is the Mass. invester trust fund. They were "B" funds when I bought them with no up front load (unless you take money out of them before the 6-year time peroid is up) but now they are all "A" funds since 6+ years have passed so the loads are all gone and the funds have no fees. No load funds are the best way to go. [B)]
There is also a Self Directed IRA for Heath Care Investment in real estate where you place the property in the account and your medical, dental and eye care is tax free as long as the funds are coming from the returns on the real estate held in that account. It is also a tax free inheritance for you children when you pass it forward. I use Mark Kohler out of CA. for this service. markjkohler.com/