Figured I'd keep HT's tile thread on topic and start a new thread.
The flats around RH are a pretty good buy, but I think there's less risk in Crosby Heights right now, if I were going to agressively pursue flipping.
FWIW, Florence park is about $115 to 125/ sq. ft. I've found a few rape-n-scrapes in the neighborhood in the $140/ft. range. It's not been a bargain with rare exceptions for the last 20 years. Even Renaissance is getting out of hand on values.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The flats around RH are a pretty good buy, but I think there's less risk in Crosby Heights right now, if I were going to agressively pursue flipping.
I love Crosbie Heights.
I want to buy the string of houses on Nogales between Archer and Charles Page. Many of them have them awesome views on a hill straight across from the new arena.
There was a really bad fixer at the top of the Hill (with a $1M view) that sold at auction last week for $63,000. The new owner plans to tear down and build. There are three properties on the Hill for sale now that have been sitting for a while. Two for sale by owner, One old brick mansion that listed at $275,000, then reduced price, now available for lease. With $25,000 of cosmetics the old brick mansion could sell for $300,000+ on a good day. What the Hill needs is one "go to realtor" that specializes in the Hill and other quality Northside neighborhoods.
The twisty turny roads on the East side of the Hill are not part of the Reservoir Hill Association so they are probably a better buy. There are wonderful houses on those roads mixed in with some really bad fixers.
Brady Heights is being renovated from one end to the other. I like to buy low and sell high so I would go over one block to Cheyene where it is a little rougher but probably a better buy with more upside potential.
I would prefer to do the restoration myself because a lot of the handy guys don't get the renovation right. You know, a new fake Victorian door on a Craftsman Bungalow. I'm fascinated by Brady Heights. There is a huge Yellow mansion on Denver in Brady Heights that I have to have. Brady Heights homes go for around $150,000.
I'm confused about where Crosbie Heights is. I think I've been there. When you are going towards Sand Springs on 3rd right before Newberry Park there is a hill with homes. I've also been in Owen Park and driven further over towards the River where there are houses facing downtown looking across an industrial area with rail. Which one is Crosbie Heights? Both of these neighborhoods have a lot of potential but neither one has Reservoir Hill's charm.
Reservoir Hill's Oak Cliff Addition (the neighborhood at the top) was originally developed by Cass and Aileen Mayo. Cass was one of the Mayo Brothers that established the family's reputation here in town. I have also heard but have not been able to confirm that Cass was an architect and that he designed the homes he built. I know that the Mayo's built the old Spanish Revival stucco homes on the Hill. The large old stucco and brick homes and the curvey streets and big lots give the Hill that Hollywood Hills feeling.
The Hill was developed in spurts. The old historic homes were built in the 20s. Later after the war, the Ranch Homes were built. There are both modest Ranch Homes and executive-sized Ranch Homes on the Hill.
Later with advances in engineering some previously undeveloped lots on Victoria Street were developed with contemporary homes. Between a Mid-Century Modern and the later contemporary homes, Victoria Street has become an important street for more recent architecture, and also has some striking views.
There are still undeveloped lots in the Oak Cliff Addition.
I have read that the Hill has been home to many business owners from the beginning. I have also heard but have not confirmed that Wait Philips had three homes in a cluster that were owned by Philips Petroleum and that he used for company executives.
Originally there were walkways and stairs between the homes running along the back of the lots and the side of homes so that one could traverse around the neighborhood without stepping on a street. I believe it was the 40s when the stairs and walkways were deeded back to owners and closed. There are still remnants here and there.
Also many of the original homes had waterfall water features. A few of those remain as well.
The Reservoir Hill flats were also built as first class homes but did not hold up as well when White flight got started. The Oak Cliff Addition did better. Many of the original owners held their ground and stayed in Oak Cliff throughout the decline and then gradual regeneration of the neighborhood.
Since I've been in the neighborhood there was a private sale of a home that went for $150,000 (that should have gone for $300,000). There are other sales on record of $289,000 and $305,000. A couple of years ago my realtor said we could list my home for $350,000. If the house was in Maple Ridge we would be looking at something around $500,000.
Several of the contemporary and larger ranch homes in the Oak Cliff Addition have always fetched a premium.
So sales are all over the map. There are bargains to be had and other historic homes that are ready to move in where you pay a premium but you get much more value than mid-town.
If you move away from Oak Cliff Addition into other areas of the Reservoir Hill neighborhood there are more bargains to be had.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'm confused about where Crosbie Heights is. I think I've been there. When you are going towards Sand Springs on 3rd right before Newberry Park there is a hill with homes. I've also been in Owen Park and driven further over towards the River where there are houses facing downtown looking across an industrial area with rail. Which one is Crosbie Heights? Both of these neighborhoods have a lot of potential but neither one has Reservoir Hill's charm.
Reservoir Hill's Oak Cliff Addition (the neighborhood at the top) was originally developed by Cass and Aileen Mayo. Cass was one of the Mayo Brothers that established the family's reputation here in town. I have also heard but have not been able to confirm that Cass was an architect and that he designed the homes he built. I know that the Mayo's built the old Spanish Revival stucco homes on the Hill. The large old stucco and brick homes and the curvey streets and big lots give the Hill that Hollywood Hills feeling.
The Hill was developed in spurts. The old historic homes were built in the 20s. Later after the war, the Ranch Homes were built. There are both modest Ranch Homes and executive-sized Ranch Homes on the Hill.
Later with advances in engineering some previously undeveloped lots on Victoria Street were developed with contemporary homes. Between a Mid-Century Modern and the later contemporary homes, Victoria Street has become an important street for more rent architecture, and also has some striking views.
There are still undeveloped lots in the Oak Cliff Addition.
I have read that the Hill has been home to many business owners from the beginning. I have also heard but have not confirmed that Wait Philips had three homes in a cluster that were owned by Philips Petroleum and that he used for company executives.
Originally there were walkways and stairs between the homes running along the back of the lots and the side of homes so that one could traverse around the neighborhood without stepping on a street. I believe it was the 40s when the stairs and walkways were deeded back to owners and closed. There are still remnants here and there.
Also many of the original homes had waterfall water features. A few of those remain as well.
The Reservoir Hill flats were also built as first class homes but did not hold up as well when White flight got started. The Oak Cliff Addition did better. Many of the original owners held their ground and stayed in Oak Cliff throughout the decline and then gradual regeneration of the neighborhood.
Since I've been in the neighborhood there was a private sale of a home that went for $150,000 (that should have gone for $300,000). There are other sales on record of $289,000 and $305,000. A couple of years ago my realtor said we could list my home for $350,000. If the house was in Maple Ridge we would be looking at something around $500,000.
Several of the contemporary and larger ranch homes in the Oak Cliff Addition have always fetched a premium.
So sales are all over the map. There are bargains to be had and other historic homes that are ready to move in where you pay a premium but you get much more value than mid-town.
If you move away from Oak Cliff Addition into other areas of the Reservoir Hill neighborhood there are more bargains to be had.
Anything for 100 grand that won't burn up my power tools?
There are twisting curved streets on the east side of the hill that are outside of the Reservoir Hill Homeowner's Association that I think are much more affordable. There are wonderful old brick and stone homes mixed in with ranches and some new homes. Some have great views. I think you could pick up one that needs work for less than $100,000. Because they have views and are larger homes with charm I think there is a lot of potential for price improvement. I've never priced the new ones that wouldn't need work.
These twisting curved streets on the east side of the Hill are N. Cheyenne Ave., W. Zion St., N. Main St., N. Denver Blvd., E. Victoria St., N. Boston Dr. All are between Cincinnati and Apache and Tecumseh.
Homes below those twisting streets in the flats are also very affordable with prices starting around $60,000. Some appear to be abandoned. Most of those homes are owned by older Black couples, so many of these homes should be trading hands before too long. There are young White people in the flats as well. The homes in the flats look like the brick homes Florence Park. The drawback is that they are one bathroom homes.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'm confused about where Crosbie Heights is. I think I've been there. When you are going towards Sand Springs on 3rd right before Newberry Park there is a hill with homes. I've also been in Owen Park and driven further over towards the River where there are houses facing downtown looking across an industrial area with rail. Which one is Crosbie Heights? Both of these neighborhoods have a lot of potential but neither one has Reservoir Hill's charm.
Yep, head west on 3rd from the arena complex over the bridge which crosses the rail road tracks and you are there. It becomes Charles Page Blvd. not far from there. The N/S streets should be Maybelle, Nogales, Olympia, Phoenix, Quannah, Rosedale, etc. I believe it extends both sides of 3rd St. Someone else please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
We drove around there on Saturday looking, there's still some shaggier parts of the neighborhood, a few houses better for knock-down, many ripe for restoration, and some generous-sized vacant lots with good views.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
There are twisting curved streets on the east side of the hill that are outside of the Reservoir Hill Homeowner's Association that I think are much more affordable. There are wonderful old brick and stone homes mixed in with ranches and some new homes. Some have great views. I think you could pick up one that needs work for less than $100,000. Because they have views and are larger homes with charm I think there is a lot of potential for price improvement. I've never priced the new ones that wouldn't need work.
These twisting curved streets on the east side of the Hill are N. Cheyenne Ave., W. Zion St., N. Main St., N. Denver Blvd., E. Victoria St., N. Boston Dr. All are between Cincinnati and Apache and Tecumseh.
Homes below those twisting streets in the flats are also very affordable with prices starting around $60,000. Some appear to be abandoned. Most of those homes are owned by older Black couples, so many of these homes should be trading hands before too long. There are young White people in the flats as well. The homes in the flats look like the brick homes Florence Park. The drawback is that they are one bathroom homes.
Aren't those all Brady Heights?
Main and Boston pass along the eastern edge of Brady Heights. Between Brady Heights and Pine those streets are really badly run down. In Reservoir Hill area they are much nicer.
Now if you pass through Brady Heights don't let all the renovation on Denver scare you away. There are still bargains to be found. I followed one house in Brady Heights that started out at $180,000 and then it was reduced down to something like $160,000 before being taken off the market.
Go one block over to Cheyenne in Brady Heights where I would guess the houses are more of a bargain but still have a good feeling.
I grew up in Tulsa and never heard of Reservoir Hill. Then, in my late 20's or so, I discovered it after a Tour de Tulsa bike ride took us through the area. I kept going back on my bike to explore. Diverse and intriguing architecture with great views! Each house is one of a kind. A secret Tulsa Treasure! (Just not sure what they do in an ice storm....)
Originally posted by Conan71
"and some generous-sized vacant lots with good views."
If you like those get to be familiar with the name Buford aka Quapaw Investments Inc. The same fellow that sold the Blair Mansion and the small front yard to Kaiser...
Although... He still gets to live there.
What a deal... Money and you get to keep the house.[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
I grew up in Tulsa and never heard of Reservoir Hill. Then, in my late 20's or so, I discovered it after a Tour de Tulsa bike ride took us through the area. I kept going back on my bike to explore. Diverse and intriguing architecture with great views! Each house is one of a kind. A secret Tulsa Treasure! (Just not sure what they do in an ice storm....)
I grew up in Tulsa too, and have always known about the Reservoir Hill neighborhood; in fact, when my family used to take leisure auto drives around town in the 1960's, one of our main destinations was always Reservoir Hill, mostly for the gorgeous views.
Thanks for the info. on your neighborhood, Hometown. I have seen your home and it is beautiful. Tell us more about your home and its history; I am sure TulsaNow posters with interest in neighborhood history would love to hear more about your house.
Thank you Steve. That's very kind and generous of you.
You know we have one of the old Cass Mayo Spanish Revival homes. Ours in one of the most original and best maintained. It was built in the 20s, the era of great mansion building in the U.S. and Tulsa's hey day. Architecture students at that time had been prevented from seeing Northern Europe because of the war, so Spain was a popular destination. They brought home their memories of Spanish architecture and created Spanish Revival architecture in the U.S.
There are a variety of Spanish Revival homes on the Hill. Ours combines elements of Andalusian and Mission styles. It is two story with an attached garage and it was built from stucco and stone and clay tile. It sits at the top on a half acre that slopes to the west. We have four bedrooms and two full baths and two half baths if you count the half bath in the basement. Our bathrooms have the original tile. The basement as built was a combination of a utility room and servants quarters but we use it for a laundry and exercise room.
There is a formal dining room and a breakfast nook and a gas fireplace. The house has a screened in porch with a terrazzo floor and balcony above with a bird's eye view of Denver Avenue and downtown. But our best view is to the west where we see the peaceful valley between us and Gilcrease Museum.
We love our home and our neighborhood. My mother also loved Reservoir Hill and I actually remember our house from the one childhood trip that we made to the Hill.
Our house is very Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard. But somehow I don't see Gloria spending her weekends pulling weeds and oiling her hardwood floors. We do. We spend most weekends and more than a few weeknights taking care of the old girl. Our house is 81 years old this year.
Looking at some other neighborhoods:
I want to take back what I said about Crosby Heights earlier in this thread. I do recall some very lovely homes there. I wish Conan would come clean on the range of values there. Give it up Conan.
And Steve, I've almost picked up the phone to call you a couple of times this past week because I've been thinking about Lortondale and your wonderful Modern homes. You know my prejudice is for Modern and I've been wondering what has happened to prices in Lortondale this past couple of years. I really want a Lortondale home and you are right in the thick of the best part of Lortondale. Is that house next to you still available?
Speaking of Lortondale let me tell you how Lortondale is related to Reservoir Hill.
Our home is located within a stones throw of a Donald Honn designed home. For those that don't know, Donald Honn is the architect that designed Lortondale. The home he designed on the Hill is named "High Croft" and it has his signature glass wall giving it an incredible view of downtown from where it sits on Victoria Street.
I wish I was 10 people so I could live all over the place.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
And Steve, I've almost picked up the phone to call you a couple of times this past week because I've been thinking about Lortondale and your wonderful Modern homes. You know my prejudice is for Modern and I've been wondering what has happened to prices in Lortondale this past couple of years. I really want a Lortondale home and you are right in the thick of the best part of Lortondale. Is that house next to you still available?
There are no homes for sale on my block in Lortondale right now. There is one house for rent west of me on 26th Terrace. I think there are 2 homes for sale on 26th St. between Darlington & Hudson in Lortondale 2nd, where you used to live.
I don't know how the recent housing turbulence has affected Lortondale home prices; pretty minimal if I were to guess, as these houses have maintained a slow steady price increase over the years without any wild speculation influencing prices. There are no houses in Lortondale with signs indicating "Bank Owned" or "foreclosure." Housing prices are all pretty irrelevant to me (except in regard to property taxes), as my house is paid for and no one could blast me out of here, save some catastrophic natural disaster.
Or collapsing into the mines.[;)] Just kidding.
Steve, what kind of prices are the ones you mentioned on the market now? I drove through there yesterday (my mom lives behind the school) and saw a couple flat tops. On 27th one of the more conventionals is listed at $129,900 for 3/2/2 brick with fireplace.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Or collapsing into the mines.[;)] Just kidding.
Steve, what kind of prices are the ones you mentioned on the market now? I drove through there yesterday (my mom lives behind the school) and saw a couple flat tops. On 27th one of the more conventionals is listed at $129,900 for 3/2/2 brick with fireplace.
Well I am just making educated guesses here, as I am no realtor and don't actively follow the real estate markets in my part of town. The modern design Honn/Grubb homes in Lortondale and Lortondale 2nd (circa 1954-1956) have limited demand, that is they don't appeal to the average taste of the "unwashed masses." Demand hasn't put a lot of upward pressure on prices, as of yet. We also have more than our fair share of "fixer uppers" and neglected properties, which tend to depress overall home values. Bad past remodelling and alterations that destroy the original modern design esthetic such as altering roof pitch and destroying the glass window walls also can destroy our home's values, and there are plenty examples of that too. The house next door to me had all the windows removed and replaced with tiny divided light units; that home sat on the market for over 2 years and never sold, even after lowering the price to $89,000. I think the owner momentarily gave up on selling and relatives currently occupy the house. There are a lot of different factors affecting the value of these unique homes.
Historically, I would say the value of a Lortondale modern home has doubled about every 20 years. My house, a 1954 3 bdrm, 2 bath, 2 car garage, 1500 sq. ft. model,located on 26th St. between Yale & Darlington, originally sold to the first owners for $16,500 in Dec. 1954. So around 1974, the market value would have been around $33,000. The garage was converted to living space with additional 1/2 bath in the 1960's, bringing living area to about 1,950 sq. ft. I purchased the house in April 1987 for $53,000. Today, I would expect to sell my house for around $115,000 after some normal improvements (paint, new roof). My house has most all original windows, flooring, and cabinetry still intact, the features that make these homes so cool and desireable to modern-design fans. And it has been fairly well maintained over the years and not been allowed to deteriorate beyond normal wear and age.
I have seen a modern Lortondale home listed for as high as $135,000, but I don't know if it sold at that price, and it had been extensively altered. Personally, I think market values here are highly undervalued, especially for the better maintained homes with original modern features intact. Lots are generous by today's standards; my lot is about 8,400 sq. ft., average for Lortondale. Lortondale 2nd lots are smaller. Some of the lots around the Lortondale pool are upwards of 16,000 sq. ft., due to the curvature of the street and the properties abutting to the north.
When the new Lortondale Historic District receives placement on the National Historic Register, hopefully by this fall or early 2009, that will only encourage restoration/preservation and have a positive effect on home values.
All of my comments are regarding the modern architecture Honn/Grubb homes, not the more conventional ranch style homes that can also be found in Lortondale 2nd.
Thanks, Steve. Where exactly does Lortondale 2 start? i would corroborate your 1974 pricing as I bought my first home in nearby Grandview Manor that year. We sat across from some moderns on 27th pl. and paid $30K. At that time the moderns were several thousand less. My mom's home has had to have piering done but hers sits on a foundation. I assume you're on a slab. Have you seen a lot of settling?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Thanks, Steve. Where exactly does Lortondale 2 start? i would corroborate your 1974 pricing as I bought my first home in nearby Grandview Manor that year. We sat across from some moderns on 27th pl. and paid $30K. At that time the moderns were several thousand less. My mom's home has had to have piering done but hers sits on a foundation. I assume you're on a slab. Have you seen a lot of settling?
Lortondale is from 26th St. to 27th Pl., Yale to Darlington; Lortondale 2nd is the same north/south, from Darlington to Hudson.
Mine is on a slab, as all modern Honn/Grubb homes in Lortondale are, HVAC ducting in the slab. I have had some normal settling that all slab foundation houses in Tulsa will experience, after all my house is 54 years old, but nothing beyond normal and things have not changed significantly in the past 21 years I have owned the place. I have never had a problem with water in the inground ducts, and have never had to have any foundation work done. Some of my fellow homeowners have not been so lucky, but I don't think the Lortondale neighborhoods have been any worse off than any other subdivision in Tulsa with slab-on-grade homes.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Thanks, Steve. Where exactly does Lortondale 2 start? i would corroborate your 1974 pricing as I bought my first home in nearby Grandview Manor that year. We sat across from some moderns on 27th pl. and paid $30K. At that time the moderns were several thousand less. My mom's home has had to have piering done but hers sits on a foundation. I assume you're on a slab. Have you seen a lot of settling?
Lortondale is from 26th St. to 27th Pl., Yale to Darlington; Lortondale 2nd is the same north/south, from Darlington to Hudson.
Mine is on a slab, as all modern Honn/Grubb homes in Lortondale are, HVAC ducting in the slab. I have had some normal settling that all slab foundation houses in Tulsa will experience, after all my house is 54 years old, but nothing beyond normal and things have not changed significantly in the past 21 years I have owned the place. I have never had a problem with water in the inground ducts, and have never had to have any foundation work done. Some of my fellow homeowners have not been so lucky, but I don't think the Lortondale neighborhoods have been any worse off than any other subdivision in Tulsa with slab-on-grade homes.
The one major problem that most all early Lortondale homes faced was with the water supply lines. When construction started in 1954, there was still a major copper shortage due to the lingering effects of the Korean War; consequently, builder Grubb used galvanized steel water lines, buried in the slab. New, unproven construction in 1954. It wasn't long before the steel lines corroded and slab leaks were a big problem. I have heard that there was a class-action lawsuit between Lortondale owners and Grubb as a consequence. Nearly 98% or more of the homes have been retrofitted with copper supply lines, cleverly hidden through closets and false ceiling beams, to correct the problem. Mine was done this way, but long before I bought the house so I never had to deal with that. If I ever have a water supply leak, pinpointing the source will be a no-brainer!
Trivia: Grandview Manor was originally supposed to be the Lortondale 3rd addition. Builder Howard Grubb bought 4 40-acre tracts of land from Meadowbrook Country Club and intended to build 540 modern homes around 4 private neighborhood pools: Lortondale, 2nd, 3rd & 4th. A big major modern U.S. housing development. By the time Lortondale 2nd was about 2/3 complete in mid 1956, demand for the modern style had basically dried up in Tulsa and he abandonded the designs and built more conventional ranch houses. Thus what was to be Lortondale 3rd from 27th Pl. south to 31st street, Yale to Darlington, became Grandview Manor. Lortondale 4th was to be directly east on the other side of Darlington. Lortondale and Lortondale 2nd do have their neighborhood swimming pools as planned, the first of their kind in Tulsa. Both the original Lortondale Pool at 4941 E 26 St., and the pool in Lortondale 2nd at 27th St. & Hudson (the 5300 Swim Club) are still in operation today after over 50 years! Both are now closed for the season. The pools planned for Lortondale 3 & 4 were never built.
At 31st & Yale, where the cloverleaf on-ramp is to the westbound BA XWay, was the concrete mixing plant built to process concrete for the Lortondale homes' slab foundations. At the present site of Hoover Elementary School was builder Grubb's carpentry shop, where they built and milled all the interior mahogany millwork and custom cabinetry for Lortondale homes. Hoover Elementary school is built upon landfill from leftover millwaste from the Lortondale subdivisions. The modern Lortondale subdivisions were a joint venture of builder Howard Grubb/architect Donald Honn, McMichael Concrete Company, and the Dale Carter Lumber Company. Lortondale modern homes were constructed to very high standards of the day: all solid heartwood framing lumber with no knots, asian mahogany door, window, and interior trim, kitchen and bath cabinetry of mahogany, oak wood block flooring, and standard central air conditioning, a first for any tract home development in the U.S. The architecture may not be to everyone's taste, but I have viewed several homes that have been stripped down to bare framing for reconstruction, and the build quality and materials used back in '54 were first rate, materials that you rarely find today at any price. These homes were built to last.
I apologize for this thread turning from Reservior Hill to Lortondale history, mainly my fault. So sue me...
Hey midtown people- what is the deal with all the tall pink flowers that everyone has in their yards? There are lots of them in Woodard Park too that you can see from Peoria. They must be fake b/c they are all the same. Why do people have these?
Reservoir Hill is not exactly Mid-Town.
quote:
Originally posted by juliemckowen
Hey midtown people- what is the deal with all the tall pink flowers that everyone has in their yards? There are lots of them in Woodard Park too that you can see from Peoria. They must be fake b/c they are all the same. Why do people have these?
I've heard people refer to those as "tube rose" but I think its name is Amaryllis belladonna. It blooms late July for a couple of weeks.
Wikipedia Entry (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaryllis%22)
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by juliemckowen
Hey midtown people- what is the deal with all the tall pink flowers that everyone has in their yards? There are lots of them in Woodard Park too that you can see from Peoria. They must be fake b/c they are all the same. Why do people have these?
I've heard people refer to those as "tube rose" but I think its name is Amaryllis belladonna. It blooms late July for a couple of weeks.
Wikipedia Entry (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaryllis%22)
So did these things suddenly get popular this season? They are everywhere!
Naked Ladies have been around a long time. They take very little care and put on quite a show. Mine are over 25 years old and delight me every year. The initial foliage comes up in the spring, dies completely back and then a few months later these pink beauties show up almost overnight!
I'm sure there's quite a few on Reservoir Hill!
I wondered about those myself. I was driving back home one evening and noticed them tucked away all over Renaissance. I figured I was just out of the loop...
Yeh, I saw some pink ladies in my neighbor's yard this morning and a bunch of them somewhere else on the way down the Hill. Very lovely.
This is one of those organic threads that starts out over there and ends up somewhere out there. Kind of organic like conversation.
Since Conan hasn't seen fit to share some Crosbie Heights prices, I'm guessing he's probably handed over some earnest money on something in Crosbie Heights. Or wants to.
Steve thanks for the update on Lortondale real estate. Always interesting. One of the best values in Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Yeh, I saw some pink ladies in my neighbor's yard this morning and a bunch of them somewhere else on the way down the Hill. Very lovely.
This is one of those organic threads that starts out over there and ends up somewhere out there. Kind of organic like conversation.
Since Conan hasn't seen fit to share some Crosbie Heights prices, I'm guessing he's probably handed over some earnest money on something in Crosbie Heights. Or wants to.
Steve thanks for the update on Lortondale real estate. Always interesting. One of the best values in Tulsa.
Heh, actually, I won't be handing over any large sums of money this month, except to the OU bursar's office.
I need to talk to one of my realtor friends to get an update from MLS on what is available and for how much right now.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Yeh, I saw some pink ladies in my neighbor's yard this morning and a bunch of them somewhere else on the way down the Hill. Very lovely.
This is one of those organic threads that starts out over there and ends up somewhere out there. Kind of organic like conversation.
They're all over Red Fork right now. I figure the recent breaking of the heat wave, along with a bit of rain, made them pop up almost overnight.
I'm sure my honeybees liked them.
I am very interested in this area and have been trying to learn more about it. I notice a lot of vacant lots around Fairview between Boulder and Cincinnati on the east edge of Brady Heights, why were those homes torn down? That area seems ripe for new houses now, especially as the Brady district revitalizes. The homes along Denver and Cheyenne seem nice but get more rundown as you head east and north. If you were looking at a house in this area what would be the pros and cons?
Quote from: SXSW on September 29, 2009, 05:21:45 PM
I am very interested in this area and have been trying to learn more about it. I notice a lot of vacant lots around Fairview between Boulder and Cincinnati on the east edge of Brady Heights, why were those homes torn down? That area seems ripe for new houses now, especially as the Brady district revitalizes.
The area of which you speak was cleared by TDA to meet the city's commitment to provide 200 acres for the University Center at Tulsa campus.
When the legislature authorized the UCAT campus in the early '80s, the city looked at Cherokee Industrial Park as one possibility, but settled on the Greenwood urban renewal area. That area had been homes and retail, which were rebuilt after the 1921 riot, but then cleared by the City in the early '70s for the "Model Cities" urban renewal program.
(A search of the Daily Oklahoman online archives -- via TulsaLibrary.org -- for "University Center at Tulsa" will turn up a lot of this history.)
The Greenwood tract was only 80 acres, so the city opted to acquire and clear the area to the west to meet the 200 acre requirement. Many of the homes, particularly those on the higher parts of the hill, were of the same vintage and style as those you'd find in Brady Heights. The area between Brady Heights and Detroit Ave., by the way, was not part of the Greenwood District -- Detroit was the dividing line between black and white communities.
Quote from: MichaelBates on September 29, 2009, 09:58:55 PM
The area of which you speak was cleared by TDA to meet the city's commitment to provide 200 acres for the University Center at Tulsa campus.
When the legislature authorized the UCAT campus in the early '80s, the city looked at Cherokee Industrial Park as one possibility, but settled on the Greenwood urban renewal area. That area had been homes and retail, which were rebuilt after the 1921 riot, but then cleared by the City in the early '70s for the "Model Cities" urban renewal program.
(A search of the Daily Oklahoman online archives -- via TulsaLibrary.org -- for "University Center at Tulsa" will turn up a lot of this history.)
The Greenwood tract was only 80 acres, so the city opted to acquire and clear the area to the west to meet the 200 acre requirement. Many of the homes, particularly those on the higher parts of the hill, were of the same vintage and style as those you'd find in Brady Heights. The area between Brady Heights and Detroit Ave., by the way, was not part of the Greenwood District -- Detroit was the dividing line between black and white communities.
VERY interesting, thanks. Who owns that land now, OSU or TDA? And does a master plan for the 200 acre campus exist? It seems that even if the OSU campus grew much larger than it is today they could expand on the parking lots along Elgin and Greenwood and at the base of the hill and have plenty of room. I'd personally rather see OSU expand
into the Brady District rather than out, and restore those neighborhoods that were demolished. New single family homes or rowhouses in this area would be very desirable for many people.
Quote from: SXSW on September 29, 2009, 10:58:36 PM
VERY interesting, thanks. Who owns that land now, OSU or TDA? And does a master plan for the 200 acre campus exist? It seems that even if the OSU campus grew much larger than it is today they could expand on the parking lots along Elgin and Greenwood and at the base of the hill and have plenty of room. I'd personally rather see OSU expand into the Brady District rather than out, and restore those neighborhoods that were demolished. New single family homes or rowhouses in this area would be very desirable for many people.
There is a master plan, and I believe it also includes Sunset Hill, where the public housing tower and the Tulsa Housing Authority offices are located. I've never been able to find it on the web. I don't know whether the cleared land has been transferred to OSU-Tulsa already or not.
I agree with you. I'd like to use OSU-Tulsa replace those massive surface lots with street-facing buildings and parking structures that would allow for better pedestrian connections in all directions. There's a lot they could do without gobbling up everything to the west.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I just put a house under contract that is in the Oak Cliff Addition, but isn't really "on the hill." We are moving from the Turner Park neighborhood and are looking forward to living in the area.
From my reading I'm pretty sure Hometown lives on the hill, any other posters here live in the area?
Welcome to the neighborhood RDJ. You are about to make a very smart choice. The City defines Reservoir Hill as stretching all the way from Cincinnati to Apache to Tisdale to Tecumseh. I have heard that the Original Reservoir Hill Neighborhood Association encompassed all that area though in recent decades it has retrenched and only includes about 65 homes mostly at that the top or leading up to the top of the Hill on Denver and Victoria.
I have said before that some of the most interesting homes and streets are on the east side of "The Hill" on the twisty curved streets and those homes are not as pricey but have the potential to be as valuable as the homes at the top.
Not long ago the Association added two homes to the Association by a membership vote. They are at the "Reservoir Hill" sign to the east on Denver at the bottom of the hill.
There are days when I'm not very happy about being in Tulsa but I am always happy to be on Reservoir Hill. And it seems that gentrification is picking up in the flats. Not only are old homes being restored but two new homes that I know of are being built in the neighborhood. And they aren't modest but rather very grand.
When I was a kid I remember visiting my Great Aunt and her husband who was an executive in a home at the bottom of The Hill. There is a misconception that all of North Tulsa was an African American neigborhood but actually the neighborhoods west of Cincinnati were all White until White Flight got underway in the 60s.
I have recently gotten interested in the streets between Cincinnati and Denver south of Pine Street part of which is adjacent to Brady Heights. That neighborhood still has issues with Black on Black violence but otherwise those smaller homes can be had for a song and a prayer and there are some very large old two story homes mixed in.
Our area still feels like beautiful old Tulsa. 10 minutes north of downtown. 10 minutes away from Utica Square. 10 minutes from the Tulsa Country Club. Value priced.
Quote from: Hometown on December 08, 2009, 12:43:57 PM
Welcome to the neighborhood RDJ. You are about to make a very smart choice. The City defines Reservoir Hill as stretching all the way from Cincinnati to Apache to Tisdale to Tecumseh. I have heard that the Original Reservoir Hill Neighborhood Association encompassed all that area though in recent decades it has retrenched and only includes about 65 homes mostly at that the top or leading up to the top of the Hill on Denver and Victoria.
I have said before that some of the most interesting homes and streets are on the east side of "The Hill" on the twisty curved streets and those homes are not as pricey but have the potential to be as valuable as the homes at the top.
Not long ago the Association added two homes to the Association by a membership vote. They are at the "Reservoir Hill" sign to the east on Denver at the bottom of the hill.
There are days when I'm not very happy about being in Tulsa but I am always happy to be on Reservoir Hill. And it seems that gentrification is picking up in the flats. Not only are old homes being restored but two new homes that I know of are being built in the neighborhood. And they aren't modest but rather very grand.
When I was a kid I remember visiting my Great Aunt and her husband who was an executive in a home at the bottom of The Hill. There is a misconception that all of North Tulsa was an African American neigborhood but actually the neighborhoods west of Cincinnati were all White until White Flight got underway in the 60s.
I have recently gotten interested in the streets between Cincinnati and Denver south of Pine Street part of which is adjacent to Brady Heights. That neighborhood still has issues with Black on Black violence but otherwise those smaller homes can be had for a song and a prayer and there are some very large old two story homes mixed in.
Our area still feels like beautiful old Tulsa. 10 minutes north of downtown. 10 minutes away from Utica Square. 10 minutes from the Tulsa Country Club. Value priced.
I think if the vacant land between Main and Cincinnati/OSU-Tulsa was redeveloped back into new single-family homes on the existing lots that it would greatly improve people's perceptions of the entire area from Brady Heights to OSU and north to Reservoir Hill. I know the Cheyenne Park neighborhood south of Pine and east of Cheyenne north of Latimer is still hit and miss as far as well-kept homes and crime, as is University Park just east of Cincinnati north of OSU and south of Pine. But overall compared to other areas of North Tulsa, like further north at 48th & Cincinnati or further east around Pine & Lewis, it is relatively safe and more homeowners would help make it even safer. I really hope whoever owns that land considers this option. I would want to see homes that at least match or increase the residential density of the surrounding neighborhoods. Something like Stapleton in Denver, another infill development, would be a good model to follow as it was designed to match the look of existing neighborhoods with higher densities than typical new construction:
(http://www.indenvertimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/stapleton.JPG)
The view of downtown from some of homes along Independence and Jasper would be incredible, and residents would be right next to an elementary school and OSU.
Thanks, Hometown. I hope to meet the residents of the area very soon. I've talked to a couple of the folks up on the hill and they've been very nice. We are very active in the community and really hope to be very active in the neighborhood.
I think the area bounded by 244, Pine, Cincinnati & Tisdale Expressway is ripe for redevelopment. As much as I love Owen Park & Crosbie Heights I think this area has far greater potential. In my opinion the land is easier to redevelop due to swaths of cleared land and housing stock that for the most part is not historically significant or in condition to be rehabbed. I also think the location is superior due to being contiguous to existing historic zoning (Brady Heights) has excellent expressway access on its West & Southern boundaries, abuts a University & has an elementary school within its boundaries, great access to a burgeoning arts & entertainment district and is within 1-2 miles of our communities central business district.
I have talked to several developers in the last few months who are looking at property in this area. One I've spoken with is raising money to build affordable modern housing using alternative materials. Their target market are the artists and employees that work in the Blue Dome & Brady District bars & restaurants. The hope is to lease the units for $0.90 to $1/ft or sell for roughly $100k. Their biggest obstacle is finding financing for a project so different from any other in Tulsa.
The other developer I've talked to is looking at a project more similar to the Village at Central Park concept.
I would be open to a mixture of both. Either way developers are starting notice that area and try and find projects that will work.
Quote from: rdj on December 08, 2009, 06:24:11 PM
Thanks, Hometown. I hope to meet the residents of the area very soon. I've talked to a couple of the folks up on the hill and they've been very nice. We are very active in the community and really hope to be very active in the neighborhood.
I think the area bounded by 244, Pine, Cincinnati & Tisdale Expressway is ripe for redevelopment. As much as I love Owen Park & Crosbie Heights I think this area has far greater potential. In my opinion the land is easier to redevelop due to swaths of cleared land and housing stock that for the most part is not historically significant or in condition to be rehabbed. I also think the location is superior due to being contiguous to existing historic zoning (Brady Heights) has excellent expressway access on its West & Southern boundaries, abuts a University & has an elementary school within its boundaries, great access to a burgeoning arts & entertainment district and is within 1-2 miles of our communities central business district.
I have talked to several developers in the last few months who are looking at property in this area. One I've spoken with is raising money to build affordable modern housing using alternative materials. Their target market are the artists and employees that work in the Blue Dome & Brady District bars & restaurants. The hope is to lease the units for $0.90 to $1/ft or sell for roughly $100k. Their biggest obstacle is finding financing for a project so different from any other in Tulsa.
The other developer I've talked to is looking at a project more similar to the Village at Central Park concept.
I would be open to a mixture of both. Either way developers are starting notice that area and try and find projects that will work.
Aren't those swaths of open land owned by OSU-Tulsa?
Quote from: MichaelBates on December 08, 2009, 08:22:33 PM
Aren't those swaths of open land owned by OSU-Tulsa?
Yes, I believe most of the cleared land is controlled by OSU-Tulsa as part of the original UCAT agreement. However, I keep hearing they are open to dealing and making something happen with it. I don't want to step to far out on it, because I don't know it as fact. But, there are a lot of cleared lots along Main St between Latimer & Pine. I haven't looked in land records to see who owns it, but I think a developer with a vision and financing could do some really nice infill development along that corridor. Main St would make a great residential gateway from downtown to North Tulsa.
The developers I have spoken to are looking at the land north of the OSU land. Primarily north of Marshall.
If I had the power to wave a wand and make one change for the benefit of our neighborhood -- I would create a top drawer private elementary school in the immediate vicinity of the Reservoir Hill neighborhood.
Quote from: rdj on December 08, 2009, 09:59:47 PM
Yes, I believe most of the cleared land is controlled by OSU-Tulsa as part of the original UCAT agreement. However, I keep hearing they are open to dealing and making something happen with it. I don't want to step to far out on it, because I don't know it as fact. But, there are a lot of cleared lots along Main St between Latimer & Pine. I haven't looked in land records to see who owns it, but I think a developer with a vision and financing could do some really nice infill development along that corridor. Main St would make a great residential gateway from downtown to North Tulsa.
The developers I have spoken to are looking at the land north of the OSU land. Primarily north of Marshall.
That would be amazing. I would strongly consider buying a new home in this neighborhood if a developer had a plan for the future of that area. If OSU owns that land they should sell it and focus on their campus and acquiring the apartments on the hill. I can just see an expanded OSU on that hillside with a new, urban neighborhood to the west overlooking downtown.
And Hometown, what is wrong with the elementary that is already there on Cincinnati? I figure it is a low income school but could greatly benefit from a revitalized neighborhood around it.
Quote from: SXSW on December 09, 2009, 04:28:29 PMwhat is wrong with the elementary that is already there on Cincinnati? I figure it is a low income school but could greatly benefit from a revitalized neighborhood around it.
I'm not Hometown, but there are two elementary schools between I-244 & Apache in the OSU/Brady Heights/Res Hill area. Emerson Elementary in the 900 block of N Boston & Burroughs Elementary in the 1900 block of N Cincinnati. Our son attends a magnet school within TPS, so we didn't fully investigate the two schools. Emerson at one time was a magnet school and had a good reputation. Emerson's boundaries are Peoria/Tisdale/Pine/BA or Southern Edge of IDL. Burroughs' boundaries are Peoria/Tisdale/Pine/Apache.
A lot of people I've talked to think Brady Heights & Reservoir Hill are in the BTW district because of their location. But, they are actually in the Central district. The BTW historic district's western boundary is Cincinnati. Carver middle school is also in the area, but is part of the magnet program so the area feeds into Madison Middle School.
They are both low-income schools, but could easily follow the path of Kendall Whittier if enough good residents begin to move into the area.
Quote from: rdj on December 09, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
I'm not Hometown,
No one else is...they broke the mold on that one.
Quote from: rdj on December 09, 2009, 05:46:59 PM
A lot of people I've talked to think Brady Heights & Reservoir Hill are in the BTW district because of their location. But, they are actually in the Central district. The BTW historic district's western boundary is Cincinnati. Carver middle school is also in the area, but is part of the magnet program so the area feeds into Madison Middle School.
Central is also a Magnet school, it is the Fine Art's Magnet, they also have a great advanced languages & mathematics programs. Like with any school, an active parent/parents involved in said students education will greatly enhance there education experience. Central has not always had the best reputation but over the last 10-15 years it has really shaped up.
Generally I think we are fighting the perception that the public schools are not safe and that a good private school close by would make a big difference in perceptions about raising your children here. Now we could have a discussion about how children that grow up with racial and economic diversity benefit by the experience but that discussion really deserves its own thread. I would hope that anyone moving to this area is comfortable with racially diversity and enjoys it. Improving the public schools is a large part of the solution for our neighborhood and for the entire city. And the life at the top of the hill is connected to the well being of the folks at the bottom of the Hill.
While looking around at home ideas last night I saw these in Reservoir Hill...can anyone tell me about the tax difference on thse two homes? $2000 a big gap for two in the same neighborhood.
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=925296
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=921330
Quote from: Kashmir on December 11, 2009, 02:04:24 PM
While looking around at home ideas last night I saw these in Reservoir Hill...can anyone tell me about the tax difference on thse two homes? $2000 a big gap for two in the same neighborhood.
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=925296
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=921330
It's all in how the assessment is done, why the newer dreckier house is assessed higher is beyond me. If the data is correct it's on a dinky lot as well vs. the 1940 home which is on almost 3/4 of an acre. I'm assuming all properties are in Tulsa County up there?
Quote from: Kashmir on December 11, 2009, 02:04:24 PM
While looking around at home ideas last night I saw these in Reservoir Hill...can anyone tell me about the tax difference on thse two homes? $2000 a big gap for two in the same neighborhood.
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=925296
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=921330
3/4 of an acre vs barely over 1/8? I'd say that's your difference.
Edit: doh, Co beat me to it...
With the age of the older home and the length of the time the seller has owned it I would guess the assessed value is much less than the listed price. The newer home is probably the opposite situation, the county assessor has a more recent and most likely closer to true market value sales price. Lower assessed value = lower tax bill.
When you purchase a home the assessor automatically updates the assessed value to that price. The majority of the time the assessed value is less than the true market value. The Tulsa County Assessor applies a percentage of appreciation to your home that is typically less than your actual appreciation.
I would bet that whomever purchases the older home will pay more than the listed taxes. I've been inside that home and it has some potential, but needs a lot of work. The lot is massive and if taken advantage of could be very, very cool.
Most mortgage lenders will calculate your ad valorem tax prior to closing based upon your purchase price to ensure you escrow balance is sufficient to pay the taxes.
Here is another home in the area for sale and the taxes listed are more in line with the older home listed previously.
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=924165 (http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=924165)
Quote from: Conan71 on December 11, 2009, 02:11:03 PM
It's all in how the assessment is done, why the newer dreckier house is assessed higher is beyond me. If the data is correct it's on a dinky lot as well vs. the 1940 home which is on almost 3/4 of an acre. I'm assuming all properties are in Tulsa County up there?
OK, so I am not seeing things...I haven't seen that much disparity in a neighborhood in a while...even I house I sold back when I did Real Estate (ah, back in another life...) on a nice little slice of brookside did not vary to that degree from the mini-estate that was next door. Just curious.
I like the older house too!
Quote from: Kashmir on December 13, 2009, 07:17:07 PM
I like the older house too!
I've been in that house. It is very, very interesting. Someone with time to do a cosmetic makeover would love that house. It appeared to maybe have some structural issues based on large cracks in walls that followed through to the ceiling.
Quote from: rdj on December 12, 2009, 02:40:02 PM
Here is another home in the area for sale and the taxes listed are more in line with the older home listed previously.
http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=924165 (http://www.tulsarealtors.com/ResidentialDetails.aspx?MLS=924165)
Wow, what an adorable house. And not at all a bad price. I have actually thought of living in the Reservoir Hill area. When I am able to sell my house and move, I will be considering that area of "North Mid-town", just as much as "South Mid-town".
Here's what doesn't follow on the newer house on the original property tax question. In the TPD district, I was thinking that property tax generally is about 1% or slightly over as a rule of thumb. I can't remember the exact "mils" that are assessed. The property tax is closer to 2% of the price on the newer property. Curious if someone built it and is trying to bail at a loss.
I love that Tudor house on E. Young St. lot of house (2600 sq. ft.) and charm for the money, but I bet you could sink a small fortune into it.
I was intrigued by the price on that house. So I google mapped it at the street level. That's when you see why the price is lower than expected. The view from its front is some more "modest" homes where folks park their Dodge Charger in the front yard. A huge part of sales price is location, landscaping and street appeal.
Still, I love the home and would overlook such things.
I would have to take the older home, but would have it inspected first. Love the more intimate feeling that it has. My wife and I have owned for the last 11 years a single story similar to the newer one and have grown tired the high ceilings and open space. Just not warm enough.
Quote from: dbacks fan on December 14, 2009, 09:52:26 AM
I would have to take the older home, but would have it inspected first. Love the more intimate feeling that it has. My wife and I have owned for the last 11 years a single story similar to the newer one and have grown tired the high ceilings and open space. Just not warm enough.
Put in some ceiling fans to circulate the warm air up by the ceiling. ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on December 14, 2009, 12:32:31 AM
I love that Tudor house on E. Young St. lot of house (2600 sq. ft.) and charm for the money, but I bet you could sink a small fortune into it.
So is real estate becoming like aviation? The best way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 14, 2009, 11:45:51 AM
So is real estate becoming like aviation? The best way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune.
...and race cars, and women, and...
Excited to say I close on my new home on the hill Tuesday. I've found out that I am connected to about 5-7 people that live on or right around the hill. Funny how that works in this crazy town.