The city of Hobart made the case to allow golf carts on city streets, so now Im wondering how long it will be before a similar ordinance goes before the Tulsa City Council.
I could see it either limited to residential streets (and some larger connectors) or neighborhood-by-neighborhood. Expressways and major arterials would be off-limits.
We're not going to become a walkable city overnight, so this would be one way to scale-down towards that goal. If most of your car commuting is short-haul anyway, it sounds like an attractive option to using the old gas-guzzler.
In time, I wouldnt be surprised if developers began to adjust their projects to accomodate a golf-cart-enabled community. I could even see electric kiosks people could use to top off their batteries.
OK, so a golf cart isnt exactly a GM EV-1, but with Lithium-ion batteries you could get around and not feel guilty about Ozone Alert days.
If we allow golf carts, does that mean that we can eliminate the safety features required on regular vehicles like air bags, 5 MPH bumpers, and seat belts? Who would be allowed to drive them? Would they be required to have insurance? Would they need a licence (tax) fee?
Just questions that would need to be considered.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
If we allow golf carts, does that mean that we can eliminate the safety features required on regular vehicles like air bags, 5 MPH bumpers, and seat belts? Who would be allowed to drive them? Would they be required to have insurance? Would they need a licence (tax) fee?
Just questions that would need to be considered.
If I'm reading him right, they would probably be under the same umbrella as scooters of the Vespa type.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
If we allow golf carts, does that mean that we can eliminate the safety features required on regular vehicles like air bags, 5 MPH bumpers, and seat belts?
It would likely depend on the limitations of the vehicle. Seat belts might be required to keep you within the vehicle in case of an accident. 5mph bumpers arent really safety features, and airbags fall under federal law rather than local ordinance.
quote:
Who would be allowed to drive them?
I wouldnt discriminate, but older drivers might be among the first.
quote:
Would they need a licence (tax) fee?
Well, It
is Tulsa....
...and you are right, we would have to take a lot of things into consideration, since putting slower vehicles on city streets would require adjusting not only our laws but our automobile-oriented mindset.
Chances are, if more cities start doing things like this, the improved market will drive improvements in motorized carts.
I have been advocating the use of Golf Karts. Utility Vehicles and the very small Japanese Import Trucks for street use for years.
(http://www.northtexasminitrucks.com/images/honda-mini-truck-1.jpg)
Need to allow these Honda ATCY Trucks to be operated on the streets also.
(http://mactownminitrucks.homestead.com/9_Mini_n_on_Flatbed___Tan_Honda___Jerry_White_Polaris_04.26.07_007.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by Red Arrow
If we allow golf carts, does that mean that we can eliminate the safety features required on regular vehicles like air bags, 5 MPH bumpers, and seat belts? Who would be allowed to drive them? Would they be required to have insurance? Would they need a licence (tax) fee?
Just questions that would need to be considered.
If I'm reading him right, they would probably be under the same umbrella as scooters of the Vespa type.
'Scooters of the Vespa type' have to meet all the same regulations as any other motorcycle...... insurance, tags, turn signals, endorsements, .....
bring on all small vehicles.
I was also almost thinking that it would be good for kids to be able to have Go-Karts too....harken back to yeateryear when people knew how things worked.
I guess a Game-Boy doesnt foster father/son realtionships in the garage and kid to kid neighborhood exploration.
There are plenty of golf carts cruising my mid-town neighborhood full of 'tweens and then a little later their parents on "cocktail cruises"; I see the pimped out fourwheeler, go-peds, small dune buggies and any random mode of transportation as a good thing and Tulsa should embrace the random because it creates an opportunity for conversation.
ALL THINGS GET SOLVED WITH CONVERSATION!
"oh we have never met before....this is our electric hunting buggy we brought with us from Texas; we hope you dont mind...the kids love to ride through the neighborhood with us when the weather is nice" Cool! what are your childrens ages???....so and so on ...a new neighborhood connection......something we all need.
Here is an ad for a dealer in Sun City, AZ, and yes they are street legal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd9KlcMNVPo
At some point a public education effort/PR push might have to come up with a name other than "golf cart" to describe elctric-powered short-haul urban vehicles, but for now, "golf cart" is a lot less of a mouthful.
I dont see this displacing the gas guzzler anytime soon, but short trips to the grocery store or getting the kid at school everyday might be more likely. I hadnt thought of "cocktail cruises" but im sure there would be some social changes that would evolve if this were to happen.
I think allowing a more diverse mix of vehicles would be a good idea for energy, and parking reasons, but then I have to think about safety, and can't see it working.
If you are in a golf cart at an intersection when another motorist zips through doing 45 in a hummer after a liquid lunch, what would otherwise be a nasty accident becomes fatal. Two dead and a couple of scratches on the bumper of the Hummer.
A simple side-swipe or finder-bender between a Yukon and an electric golf cart would end up in absolute carnage!
I guess it's really the same situation for motorcycles and scooters, but the mix is far less.
When I was a kid, I worked in a hospital and was amazed by the amount of fatal and near-fatal motorcycle accidents that came in nearly every day. One of our docs Dr. Parks, rode a motorcycle and mentioned that bikers make up less than 5% of the driving public but account for nearly half of the fatalities. I'm not sure where he got this statistic from, but I never forgot it. The week after we were talking about that, he was rear-ended by a car, and nearly killed. Spent weeks in the hospital trying to save his leg.
Again, I like the idea of getting to work on a few pennies of electricity or a few drops of fuel, but I'm not sure the toll in human life will be worth it. There would defiantly have to be a helmet law for such vehicles.
We can certainly make more efficient forms of transportation available to the public, but we can't make the other motorists more cautious.
Ok, I just looked up the most recent fatality statistics for motorcycles for anyone who is interested. DOT and NCSA stats.
Motorcycle fatalities make up 8% of all traffic fatalities. They represent 1.6% of the driving public.
For every 100,000 motorcycles 65 riders are killed every year.
Thats some fairly grim statistics.
I'm not sure that a golf cart would fair any better.
While running your stats, how many traffic related fatalities were pedestrians or bicyclists?
Perhaps the problem is not with the mode of transportation and all the added safety equipment such as air bags, seat belts and the like, but rather the operator's lack of skill or being intoxicated.
May want to run the stats on the motorcycle, pedestrian and bicycle fatalities and see who was at fault and if alcohol was involved.
Any stats from China or Japan where two wheels are a popular form of transportation?
The risks of golf carts on the streets might be more in line with 2-wheeled vehicles that are already there, and increasing in number.
...but for every bicycle, motorcycle, 3-wheeler or golf cart on the road that's one less motor vehicle.
Transitioning will not be easy, but the payoff is in the long run.
Wonder if INCOG has studied this?
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
While running your stats, how many traffic related fatalities were pedestrians or bicyclists?
Perhaps the problem is not with the mode of transportation and all the added safety equipment such as air bags, seat belts and the like, but rather the operator's lack of skill or being intoxicated.
May want to run the stats on the motorcycle, pedestrian and bicycle fatalities and see who was at fault and if alcohol was involved.
Any stats from China or Japan where two wheels are a popular form of transportation?
Can't find any on China, but my wife went to China last year and she saw horrible motorcycle accidents nearly every day in Beijing and Behi. They actually ride with their infants in their laps!
As for Japan, 18% of all traffic fatalities are Motorcycle (Japan Institute for Traffic Accident Research and Data). Interesting, they site that the major cause is vehicle right turns (would be left turns here) where the driver of the car does not see the cycle crossing the intersection.
I think the added safety devices ARE a huge factor! If someone hits me at just 30 mph in a car and I am in a car with modern seat belts and air bags, chances are I will walk away (actually I have, twice), but if I were on a bike, 30 mph impact would most likely kill me or seriously injure me.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
I have been advocating the use of Golf Karts. Utility Vehicles and the very small Japanese Import Trucks for street use for years. (http://www.northtexasminitrucks.com/images/honda-mini-truck-1.jpg)
I just had a flashback to travelling in Thailand and Guatemala! In many countries, these are used as taxis. You just jump in the back with about 10-12 other people...
(http://www.itravelnet.com/photos/as/thailand/koh-phuket/phuket-tuk-tuk.jpg)
This is still considered a "tuk-tuk" (pronounced: took-took) in Thailand, but it's not quite as exciting as the traditional tuk-tuks...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Tuk_tuk_1.jpg/800px-Tuk_tuk_1.jpg)
Similar thread over in the Forum Chat area!
Mini Trucks? (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10815%22)
quote:
Here's the info on the OK Senate Bill
SB1998 || 2/4/2008 || Motor vehicles; providing for registration and operation of imported mini-trucks. || Effective date. || Schulz(S), Armes(H)
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08SB/SB1998_int.rtf
==========================
STATE OF OKLAHOMA
2nd Session of the 51st Legislature (2008)
SENATE BILL 1998 By: Schulz
AS INTRODUCED
An Act relating to motor vehicles; amending 47 O.S. 2001, Sections 1102, as last amended by Section 1, Chapter 177, O.S.L. 2007 and 1105, as last amended by Section 1, Chapter 202, O.S.L. 2007 (47 O.S. Supp. 2007, Sections 1102 and 1105), which relate to definitions and motor vehicle registration; defining term; limiting applicability of certain registration requirements; providing for registration of imported mini-trucks; providing for certain operation of imported mini-trucks; providing for codification; and providing an effective date.
...
11. "Imported mini-truck" means a foreign manufactured import vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine with a piston or rotor displacement of six hundred sixty cubic centimeters (660 cu cm) or less, which is sixty (60) inches or less in width, with an unladen dry weight of one thousand six hundred (1,600) pounds or less, traveling on four (4) or more tires, having a top speed of approximately fifty-five (55) miles per hour, equipped with a bed or compartment for hauling, and having an enclosed passenger cab;
...
SECTION 4. This act shall become effective November 1, 2008.
==========================
(http://www.southtexasminitrucks.com/Photos/DeckVans/Dark%20Blue/DSCF0031_1.JPG)
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
While running your stats, how many traffic related fatalities were pedestrians or bicyclists?
I think the NHTSA attributes the most motor vehicle fatalities for 2 categories: excessive speed and alcohol.
They use the quaint term "pedalcyclists" for bicycle riders. About 800 per year die on the roads, and if I recall right, about 42,000 motorists do also. It's difficult to compare them on a per capita basis since there are no hard figures on the number of cyclists. When they're compared on a per mile basis, driving appears to be much safer. But the most rational comparison I've seen is on a per hour of exposure basis. Cycling (as opposed to driving) was less likely to result in a fatality or injury, and both of them were far less dangerous than motorcycling.
The most dangerous activity was skydiving. I'll try to find that statistics site again.
Finally, I believe Claremore permits golf carts on streets with speed limits of 25mph or less. A disabled guy was using one to get to work when the Claremore PD cited him for CROSSING a street with a higher speed limit.
quote:
They use the quaint term "pedalcyclists" for bicycle riders. About 800 per year die on the roads, and if I recall right, about 42,000 motorists do also.
I guess the logic here points to -- if you want to survive being hit by a tank make sure you are also driving a tank -- but that's one reason we got into the SUV mess in the first place.
quote:
The most dangerous activity was skydiving.
Im going to resist the temptation to try that next grocery trip (moreso than I resisted the temptation to have fun with that at someone's expense).
Maybe (for the purposes of a new ordinance) vehicle classifications should lean more towards speed capability and crash-worthiness than whether they are electric, use a chainsaw motor, etc.
I would also be a little more excited about having electric carts for getting around the neighborhood than I would having 2-cycle gasoline engines with little or no emission control all over town. Golf carts are just a start, but they are available now.
Tiger Trucks (//%22http://www.tigertruck.com/%22)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/trucks.jpg)
Made In Oklahoma (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20080731_46_E1_hTIGER959883%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Tiger Trucks (//%22http://www.tigertruck.com/%22)
These might have a place not too far down the road (and they have their own thread on TulsaNow at http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10815 )
but I dont think they would be classified as either golf carts or personal electric vehicles.
I'm getting ready to go see one of my biker buddies in the hospital who got run off the road by a car Friday night near 31st & Memorial. The driver of the car left the scene. I'm willing to bet he/she was drunk. If anyone happened to witness it, I'd love to help the police track down the POS who did it.
A lot of motorcycle accidents happen due to other's inattentive driving. It's going to get worse as we see more scooters and other two-wheelers on the road unless drivers become more vigilant.
Best piece of advice I was ever given when I started riding on the street many years ago was: "Ride like you are invisible." That's kept me out of a lot of scrapes so far.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
A lot of motorcycle accidents happen due to other's inattentive driving. It's going to get worse as we see more scooters and other two-wheelers on the road unless drivers become more vigilant.
I would agree, and probably to the point of saying that
most cycle accidents are the fault inattentive car drivers, but it's not enough of a "crisis" to have some special interest group fund an enforcement "event".
Regardless, the amount of gas guzzlers on the city streets will continue to lessen in favor of pedestrians, bicyclists and smaller vehicles, and we can either adapt or fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Best piece of advice I was ever given when I started riding on the street many years ago was: "Ride like you are invisible." That's kept me out of a lot of scrapes so far.
I really hate that gratuitous bit of advice, and I've received it both about bicycling and motorcycling. If we really heeded it, we'd dodge off the road at every intersection in order to avoid all those motorists who couldn't see us. Instead, let's teach two wheeled drivers to be visible by riding where motorists are looking. Let's teach them to ride in the left hand tire track so they're more in line with a motorist's view and they'll have more maneuvering room if somebody screws up.
Finally, I said that I'd find that statistics page. Here it is:
LINK (//%22http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Best piece of advice I was ever given when I started riding on the street many years ago was: "Ride like you are invisible." That's kept me out of a lot of scrapes so far.
I really hate that gratuitous bit of advice, and I've received it both about bicycling and motorcycling. If we really heeded it, we'd dodge off the road at every intersection in order to avoid all those motorists who couldn't see us. Instead, let's teach two wheeled drivers to be visible by riding where motorists are looking. Let's teach them to ride in the left hand tire track so they're more in line with a motorist's view and they'll have more maneuvering room if somebody screws up.
Finally, I said that I'd find that statistics page. Here it is:
LINK (//%22http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm%22)
Make yourself a visible as possible but to deny that many motorists won't see you is not going to keep you from getting hurt, gratuitous advice or not. At least one of my friends on a motorcycle lost a foot since a motorist didn't see him. My friend was doing everything right, headlight on, obeying the speed limit and so forth but he is still the one who lost his foot.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Best piece of advice I was ever given when I started riding on the street many years ago was: "Ride like you are invisible." That's kept me out of a lot of scrapes so far.
I really hate that gratuitous bit of advice, and I've received it both about bicycling and motorcycling. If we really heeded it, we'd dodge off the road at every intersection in order to avoid all those motorists who couldn't see us. Instead, let's teach two wheeled drivers to be visible by riding where motorists are looking. Let's teach them to ride in the left hand tire track so they're more in line with a motorist's view and they'll have more maneuvering room if somebody screws up.
Finally, I said that I'd find that statistics page. Here it is:
LINK (//%22http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm%22)
Ed,
This actually came about when I was working at a motorcycle shop while going to college. One of our customers rode about 15,000 to 20,000 miles per year. I don't know if he even owned a car. I asked Dave how he'd kept from having any accidents and he replied:
"I ride like I'm invisible."
I said: "Oh you mean you ride stoned?"
"No, make yourself visible as possible but don't assume everyone can or will see you. Pretty hard to see a motorcycle when your head is up your donkey!"
It doesn't make me paranoid, but it does keep my watch much more vigilant, I rely a lot on my peripheral vision, and pay attention to much more than the car in front of me. One habit I have, and it carries over to when I'm driving, is if I see a car at an intersecting stop sign, I'm prepared to brake until I can see them look in my direction. I also anticipate even the slightest vehicle movement and I do slow down for most arterial intersections as everyone is in such a damn hurry these days.
There's a lot of people willing to take stupid chances at the expense of others. I'm soley responsible for my safety whether I'm in my truck or on my bicycle or motorcycle. Cliche phrases or not. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by patric
...but for every bicycle, motorcycle, 3-wheeler or golf cart on the road that's one less motor vehicle.
Well it might only be 1/2 of a motor vehicle less on the road, or even 1/3 less for every additional bicycle or scooter, instead of one less. Contrary to politically correct steriotypes, some people actually car-pool in their SUVs.
quote:
Originally posted by bbriscoe
Contrary to politically correct steriotypes, some people actually car-pool in their SUVs.
Very few.
If you want to investigate what a community is like that allows golf carts then check out Peachtree City, Georgia. They have very strict laws and regulations concerning the use of golf carts and have a lot of citizens who do use the carts for getting around town.
I think Tulsa is too car centric and too large. I mean, how big is Hobart? Have you ever been there, I have. It would be much easier to control the golf cart use there than here where you have multiple communities interconnected and making the use allowable in all the government entities a major headache.
If you build a private gated community, I worked at a couple of different ones in Florida, where golf cart use was allowed on the roadways then that community could control the use of the carts behind its gate but would have no ability to allow use beyond the gate onto public roads.