During the Bell - Miller debate on the radio the question came up of what will become of the old Ballpark at the Expo. I believe the Ballclub built the park and owns all the infastructure standing there, but I could be wrong.
When asked about the future of the Ballpark, Randi Miller answered, "we don't know yet" Later she was asked if there is a Fairgrounds Master Plan to which she answered "yes" and I believe she replied they meet every Tuesday to discuss the "Master Plan."
If the "Master Plan" does exist, then is the Ballpark and the future of Big Splash included in it. One would think with all the talk about the Drillers moving the Ballpark would be a hot topic on the "Master Plan." Was the parking lot, where Bells once sat, part of the 'Master Plan" prior to Bells being evicted from the Expo?
And where does one find a copy of this every changing "Master Plan?"
One would suppose that the Drillers leaving wasnt part of any "Master Plan" and thus hard to plan for. But since they are leaving it will open up opportunities that I am sure are currently being discussed. But, the Drillers aint moved yet. Hope they do move downtown, but I'll believe it when I see it lol.
As for the stands, the Drillers will probably sell them since it appears they can be taken apart and moved.
I think Tuesdays are her day off!
Found the archive of the debate.
http://podcast.1170kfaq.com/DesktopModules/Orizonti_NukeNews/getLink.aspx?pid=48&tid=1852&newsid=36688
"We have a comprehensive plan. That every Tuesday meeting and construction meeting it is open to the public, they can go at 8:30 on Tuesdays at the Fairgrounds. There is a comprehensive plan. There is Phase 1, 2, 3 and 4.... So phase 5 is now what we have to look at. I am actually the chair of that."
Tulsa County owns the current stadium.
If you meet every Tuesday to go over the Master Plan, certainly they should have revised it to consider the Driller's leaving sometime in the last 6 months. That's 24 meetings to discuss it.
They also, apperently, don't talk revenue in regards to the Master plan. Nor do they try to figure out what "not just a parking lot" really refers to.
Maybe "master plan" is code for mohito's in the summer, hot toddies in the winter, and martini's in betweeni. Clearly they aren't using the time for any plan. Let alone a "master" plan. I'd think a clear lack of said plan is evidence enough of that.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/cannon.fodder.junk/SIeuZfU46OI/AAAAAAAAASY/0ExXWkk5wHc/s800/VoteRandi.jpg)
Simple fix for the East side of the Fairgrounds is to return the Auto Racing that was also evicted by fiat in the 70s from the Fairgrounds.
Where the new BOK Arena may draw a large crowd now and then, Tulsa Speedway constantly drew 12,000 + spectators every Friday and Saturday night for many years at the Fairgrounds location. Believe the Auto Racing at the Fairgrounds began around 1926 based on this photos in the Berle Ford collection.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A0487.jpg)
Thousands of Tulsa area racefans loved watching races at this track at the Fairgrounds. This is Tulsa Speedway #1, not the track that is there now, that is Tulsa Speedway #3.
Most Fairgrounds still have Auto Racing outdoors at their Fairgrounds. Kansas seems to have the most. The Rooks County fair is still Free to those choosing to attend. Most County Fairs were free, the Fairs were a celebration of the harvest time and a big festival celebrating all the hard work that folks in the area had accomplished all year.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D2201.jpg)
Notice turn one of the racetrack in the left hand portion of this photo. Also the buildings sit where the current IPE Building is today.
The intersection shown at the upper left hand corner is 21st and Yale. So obviously the homes came after the Racetrack was long established.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D7057.jpg)
Few years later with homes in the area.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D7058.jpg)
This photo was taken after the fire that destroyed the nice wooden grandstands at the racetrack.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D7063.jpg)
View looking west.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A3878.jpg)
Arial view, notice the big granstands.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/C0236.jpg)
Parking was not a big issue early on at the Fairgrounds. Folks simply parked on the south side of 21st street. Too bad there was not a good comprehensive plan in action back then. Homes should of never been built close to the Fairgrounds. Major street fronts surrounding the fairgrounds should of been parking, retail, motels and service businesses for the events at the Fairgrounds. That is basically how the State Fairgrounds in Springfield, Missouri is, and the Fairgrounds in Oklahoma City.
Your not gonna get car racing back in that part of town. Actually if Bells is to rebuild, it might be nice to have a racetrack near that as well. Would depend on the location as well though. However, isnt it true that the horse racing track at the fairgrounds is actually on the small size? Perhaps they can expand that facility to "regular" size if thats the case. They seem to be leaning towards a "horse centered" fairgrounds anyway.
If there are phases 1-4 of the master plan, and they are working on 5, What phase are they currently in? Would be curious to see what the over all thinking is, what they envision the fairgrounds as being like.
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
Emmett Hahn had a contract with the Fair Grounds for 7 or 8 events at the Grandstand track. They held two USAC Champ Car Tulsa 100 lap races there.
They also race cars, trucks and motorcycles/atvs indoors at two or three of the venues on the Fairgrounds. Chili Bowl Midget Nationals, Tulsa Shootout, Tulsa Arenacross, Xtreme World Arenacross, Darryl Starbird Car Show Free Style and Monster Truck Races.
I believe the Chili Bowl is one of the crown jewel events for income for the Fairgrounds, Fair, Starbird Car Show and the Chili Bowl. Of which two are motor vehicle related, and the third the Tulsa State Fair, used to have races at the big track. The Fair still has cars and powerport vehicles on display .
Not sure how many folks are riding, breeding and raising horses today, it is afterall 2008.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
I'm VERY in to Tulsa sports and have not heard this rumor. Why wouldn't Tulsa want to play at the new stadium if they were to play off campus? That is, if they had a baseball team.
/not that I know you are wrong, just haven't heard it.
Wow. Hadn't heard Emmett Hahn's name in ages... I was about 6 or 7 when my grandpa would take me to the races at the fairgrounds... you could hear the racecars miles away on those nights...
I just don't think it'd work at the fairgrounds these days unless eveything was held indoors (like the Chili Bowl)...
I think a great place for a racetrack would be down on the west bank of the river at 23rd & Jackson... not great access, but racefans will drive anywhere... so I hear anyway... but would the folks at 21st and Riverside object because of the noise???.... wonder how loud that'd be?
Oh, and I also know of a league that would LOVE to have a team in Tulsa....
USL1 seems to be using the Huey Lewis & the News guide to expansion.... "Tulsa... Austin... Oklahoma City....." [:P]
http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2223/2471803080_7b0be43484_o.jpg)
...you'd think the guy would at least have the decency to contact me.... go figure...
Regardless, USL1 wants to be in Tulsa, would like to make an announcement in the next month (I'm betting on OKC/Edmond playing at Wantland)... and would prefer to use the Roughnecks' name for a Tulsa team to go with the Tampa Bay Rowdies.... they're open to suggestions.... so somebody (anybody) important with lotsa money please contact them so I can finally get taken off their email list.... [;)]
quote:
Dear USL Franchise Prospect,
USL has been having a tremendous 2008 season! So far 987 games have been played, 3,075 goals scored, and nearly 950,000 fans watching. 121 games to go until we begin preperations for the 2009 season.
We hope to bring the USL excitement to your city or town in 2009 or 2010. If you are interested in applying for a USL expansion franchise with the USL First Division, USL Second Division, USL Premier Development League, or USL W-League, please visit:
http://www.uslfranchising.com
username: umbro
password: 1924
I'm sure I'm breaking rules by giving the readers of TulsaNow forum the username and pw, but hey, what are they gonna do? Sue me?!?
Login, look at the
International Partnerships Presentation You'll see the basic sales pitch first, scroll to page 57 for operating expenses, then page 58 for Austin's new team--- then scroll to page 64, then to page 65 (Omaha) and then page 66 (Okla. City)...
It'd be nice if Tulsa at least had its own page-- hint, hint....
BTW, TU hasn't had a baseball team since old Oiler Park collapsed-- when I was a kid, I remember going to old Oiler Park to see TU versus OU... they added men's soccer in 1980? or 1981?..... another bit of Bob-Costas-esque trivia rattling around in my brain... the 1985 Tulsa Roughnecks played a short season even after the league they played in collapsed and cancelled their season..... they played an exhibition schedule of 7-games..... at Driller Park...
god I'm old.... but then again, so's Beth Rengal, Chris Lincoln, and Linda Soundtrak.... [:I]
Turn it into an amphitheatre.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Wow. Hadn't heard Emmett Hahn's name in ages... I was about 6 or 7 when my grandpa would take me to the races at the fairgrounds... you could hear the racecars miles away on those nights...
Emmett Hahn and Lanny Edwards are co-promoters of the Lucas Oil Chili Bowl Midget Nationals and Emmett produces the Tulsa Shootout.
Chili Bowl expects to sell 70,000 tickets for the annual race held in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the Fairgrounds.
TULSA WORLD ARTICLE - Will the Chili Bowl Move to the BOK Arena? http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectID=203&articleID=20080718_203_B1_pncase724513
quote:
BTW, TU hasn't had a baseball team since old Oiler Park collapsed-- when I was a kid, I remember going to old Oiler Park to see TU versus OU...
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D4106.jpg)
(http://tulsatvmemories.com/imag1999/oiler.jpg) Photo from the collection of Wayne McCombs, author of "Baseball in Tulsa".
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A0142.jpg)
(http://www.berylfordcollection.com/)
(http://www.berylfordcollection.com/)
I recall when we had box seats on the 3rd base line near the Oilers dug out. I remember the aroma of the freshly cut grass and the water that had been sprayed on the field prior to the game.
(http://tulsatvmemories.com/imag1999/andy.jpg)
And Andy Andrews always great opening line... Let's Go-a-oooooooh Tulsa! Photo from Tulsa TV Memories Dot Come.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
The ballpark should be donated and placed in a public park, preferably somewhere in north Tulsa, (maybe Mohawk) for public use considering all the public funded pork involved the downtown ballpark deal.
Hopefully any changes will be centered around making the horse track less ugly. It's gotta be the least attractive track in the country.
Let's get rid of the parking lot in the infield.
I enjoyed the stock car races as a youth too. As they came around turn 4, clods of clay would often come flying into the stands. It was fun but way too loud. In high school we would drive up to reservoir hill and enjoy the view. You could not only hear them 10 miles away, you could actually feel the earth rumble on a Saturday night.
Couldn't be placed anywhere near the riverparks at 21st area. Please?
I can't support an oval race track. I'm still waiting for Gutterman to come through on his promise for a short road course at the strip. Now if he wanted to work a deal to build one at the fairgrounds I could go for that.
Tulsa is a car town, and I think we need to embrace that....but not with NASCRAP ovals.
i still dont understand the comment that Fiat got them evicted in the 70s. Why would Fiat do that?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
The ballpark should be donated and placed in a public park, preferably somewhere in north Tulsa, (maybe Mohawk) for public use considering all the public funded pork involved the downtown ballpark deal.
That or as part of some West Riverparks area would be nice.
And if Tulsa opens a track it needs to be dirt, not asphalt.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
I can't support an oval race track. I'm still waiting for Gutterman to come through on his promise for a short road course at the strip. Now if he wanted to work a deal to build one at the fairgrounds I could go for that.
Tulsa is a car town, and I think we need to embrace that....but not with NASCRAP ovals.
i still dont understand the comment that Fiat got them evicted in the 70s. Why would Fiat do that?
Oh, yes. The Italian connection is quite strong here.[;)] JoeMomma probably knows.
Wouldn't it be cool to shut down an area of town and have them race on city streets once a year? Maybe the formula one organizations would pave our streets in exchange for racing on them.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
I can't support an oval race track. I'm still waiting for Gutterman to come through on his promise for a short road course at the strip. Now if he wanted to work a deal to build one at the fairgrounds I could go for that.
Tulsa is a car town, and I think we need to embrace that....but not with NASCRAP ovals.
i still dont understand the comment that Fiat got them evicted in the 70s. Why would Fiat do that?
Oh, yes. The Italian connection is quite strong here.[;)] JoeMomma probably knows.
Wouldn't it be cool to shut down an area of town and have them race on city streets once a year? Maybe the formula one organizations would pave our streets in exchange for racing on them.
well, a while back I had suggested that Semgroup pave tulsa with some of that fancy hot mix they developed and was testing along a stretch of the turner turnpike. I guess not anymore though!
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
The ballpark should be donated and placed in a public park, preferably somewhere in north Tulsa, (maybe Mohawk) for public use considering all the public funded pork involved the downtown ballpark deal.
That or as part of some West Riverparks area would be nice.
And if Tulsa opens a track it needs to be dirt, not asphalt.
I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys (//%22http://www.teslamotors.com/%22) fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/tesla.jpg)
There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.
quote:
Originally
I still dont understand the comment that Fiat got them evicted in the 70s. Why would Fiat do that?
The term is fiat not Fiat.
The Public Trust Authority was in fear of having to fight a tort against them regarding a noise curfew issue. They caved in and evicted Stanley Durrett who was the promoter of Tulsa Speedway at that time. Gloria Huckabee, a neighbor whos husband was also a Tulsa attorney, was the biggest opponet of Auto Racing at the Tulsa Fairgrounds. Some speculate she was paid by the Horse Racing Industry to help force the Auto Racing off of the Tulsa Fair Grounds.
fiat
fi·at Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation [fee-aht, -at; fahy-uht, -at]
noun 1. an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat.
2. a formula containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction.
3. an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, esp. by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.
quote:
I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.
There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.
+1
Awesome idea. I'd go.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've heard a rumor that TU is interested in the ball park
I'm VERY in to Tulsa sports and have not heard this rumor. Why wouldn't Tulsa want to play at the new stadium if they were to play off campus? That is, if they had a baseball team.
/not that I know you are wrong, just haven't heard it.
The source was a member of the TU Alum, the reason would that it is closer to the school, and the problem is that there is no male or female baseball team and they would need both. Probably not likely since I'm sure the county will want this corner for parking to match the other corner.
quote:
the problem is that there is no male or female baseball team
The University of Tulsa has a softball team. They play at an on-campus facility.
http://tulsahurricane.cstv.com/sports/w-softbl/tuls-w-softbl-body.html
They were 2nd in C-USA last year and played in the Regionals of the NCAA tournament.
Um, I'm not disputing the softball team, I guess I thought that they were different sports.
I think that corner would be a wonderful place for a really big, mid-priced hotel. The fairgrounds brings in so many out-of-towners and the only option is a Micro-tel.
Those horse owners have a lot of money. Build some nice hotel with a decent restaurant and everybody wins.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think that corner would be a wonderful place for a really big, mid-priced hotel. The fairgrounds brings in so many out-of-towners and the only option is a Micro-tel.
Those horse owners have a lot of money. Build some nice hotel with a decent restaurant and everybody wins.
Here's a money saver Idea.
Don't spend $30 million of taxpayer money building a new stadium downtown.
Don't fall for Lamson's blackmail of:
We're moving to Jenks.It's a ploy.
Jenks has a population of 15,000.
WHERE is their tax base to build a $30 million stadium?
It doesn't exist.
Use new Ad Valorem taxes?
Jenks School District already has the highest in the entire state.
Another SALES tax? Have to be a BIG one to collect $30 million with their sales tax base.
Tulsans are being conned.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Here's a money saver Idea.
Don't spend $30 million of taxpayer money building a new stadium downtown.
Don't fall for Lamson's blackmail of:
We're moving to Jenks.
It's a ploy.
Jenks has a population of 15,000.
WHERE is their tax base to build a $30 million stadium?
It doesn't exist.
Use new Ad Valorem taxes?
Jenks School District already has the highest in the entire state.
Another SALES tax? Have to be a BIG one to collect $30 million with their sales tax base.
Tulsans are being conned.
(http://www.kimrichter.com/Blog/uploaded_images/AwJeezNotThisSheetAgain-763103.jpg)
FB, a private investor was going to build the Driller's stadium in Jenks in the new development that is currently breaking ground. Jenks provided a TIF but other than that were not going to fund its construction.
If we want developement downtown we have to coax it. Developers are just beginning to see DT and the surrounding areas as places with potential. DT has a lot of problems that developers don't have to deal with out in the burbs or in south Tulsa like: plenty of room for oceans of surface parking, you can build "out" instead of "up", and admittedly downtown has some perception problems the burbs don't have yet (yet).
Currently the burbs have better demographics than downtown does, but if we can attract people to live and/or play downtown that will change.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
FB, a private investor was going to build the Driller's stadium in Jenks in the new development that is currently breaking ground. Jenks provided a TIF but other than that were not going to fund its construction.
If we want developement downtown we have to coax it. Developers are just beginning to see DT and the surrounding areas as places with potential. DT has a lot of problems that developers don't have to deal with out in the burbs or in south Tulsa like: plenty of room for oceans of surface parking, you can build "out" instead of "up", and admittedly downtown has some perception problems the burbs don't have yet (yet).
Currently the burbs have better demographics than downtown does, but if we can attract people to live and/or play downtown that will change.
A tidal wave of change in the living, shopping and working habits of Americans has recently occured; it's called $4.00 per gallon gasoline.
The 60 year trend of suburban and ex-urban sprawl was fueled by:
Inexpensive fuel, and inexpensive farm land. Inexpensive for the developers. Expensive for the taxpayers funding new highways and infrastructure.
Downtown offices and down housing, and close-in in-fill development look much better now than commuting from Coweta or Claremore at $4.00 per gallon.
Much.
I hope you are correct, but the recent poll in the TW showed that people:
1. Are upset and burdened by the price of fuel
2. Are not interested/able to change their driving habits
3. Are not willing/able to look at alternate transportation
4. Are not willing/able to explore alternate technologies.
If this poll is a true slice of Oklahoma public opinion (I hope not) then the only change people want is for the price of gasoline to go back down to pre-Iraq levels as unlikely as that possibility is.
For the sake of the gods, let it go. You haven't raised a new point or prudently defended an existing one in about a month.
It's all a scam, they won't move, Manhattan Construction needs the $30mil to stay afloat, the old guard will make a killing off of this, you can't afford the $10 a month in new taxes, there isn't anything to do in the area, there is too much crime, there's no parking downtown, no one will go to baseball games, we can't afford it, it's too close to a highway, no one likes baseball, 6000 seats isn't enough for baseball,
blah blah blah.
Plenty of reasons. Nothing to back most of it up.
Please, PLEASE don't sink this thread. Troll back to the other one that is some 8 pages of dribble long. Lets keep this thread on the "what of the old ball park" topic.
Sorry for feeding the bear
(http://members.aol.com/PaulEC2/yb6.jpg)
And what of the Old Ball Park?
- It would be great to see TU with baseball at the Fairgrounds ballpark.
- Use it for High School baseball playoffs!
- Is ORU's ballpark used for High School baseball?
And what of the Horse Track?
- It would be great to see Trotter Horse Races. (//%22http://www.ustrotting.com/%22)
- Regional [COUNTY?] HS Soccer Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] HS Softball Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] HS Track and Field Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] Youth [PEE WEE] Soccer Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] Youth [PEE WEE] Softball Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] Youth [PEE WEE] Track and Field Complex
- Regional [COUNTY?] Youth [PEE WEE] Football Complex
If they build this new stadium people will go to a few games while it is new and different.
Then it will go back to the same 6 people who go to the games now. They can't even give the tickets away - and that is the truth. Every time they have a Tulsa Drillers story on TV and show the stands they are pretty much empty.(I have noticed since they have proposed the new stadium the media no longer shows the "cheering crowd" in the stands. Hmmmm.....
The exception is when they host the Bedlum game. That game it's packed. But that is a once a year thing.
If the stadium is built they are going to have to find a way to fill it.
They built the new arena and they are going to have to come up with a way to pay for the maintenance - when they build this ball park they are going to have to find a way to pay for it's maintenance too.
I hope both things are a success even after the new wears off. But the cost to opperate them is going to be much more than what they bring in and someone has to pay for it....THAT is reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
If they build this new stadium people will go to a few games while it is new and different.
Then it will go back to the same 6 people who go to the games now. They can't even give the tickets away - and that is the truth. Every time they have a Tulsa Drillers story on TV and show the stands they are pretty much empty.(I have noticed since they have proposed the new stadium the media no longer shows the "cheering crowd" in the stands. Hmmmm.....
The exception is when they host the Bedlum game. That game it's packed. But that is a once a year thing.
If the stadium is built they are going to have to find a way to fill it.
They built the new arena and they are going to have to come up with a way to pay for the maintenance - when they build this ball park they are going to have to find a way to pay for it's maintenance too.
I hope both things are a success even after the new wears off. But the cost to opperate them is going to be much more than what they bring in and someone has to pay for it....THAT is reality.
Okie dokie.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
If they build this new stadium people will go to a few games while it is new and different.
Then it will go back to the same 6 people who go to the games now. They can't even give the tickets away - and that is the truth. Every time they have a Tulsa Drillers story on TV and show the stands they are pretty much empty.(I have noticed since they have proposed the new stadium the media no longer shows the "cheering crowd" in the stands. Hmmmm.....
The exception is when they host the Bedlum game. That game it's packed. But that is a once a year thing.
If the stadium is built they are going to have to find a way to fill it.
They built the new arena and they are going to have to come up with a way to pay for the maintenance - when they build this ball park they are going to have to find a way to pay for it's maintenance too.
I hope both things are a success even after the new wears off. But the cost to opperate them is going to be much more than what they bring in and someone has to pay for it....THAT is reality.
Translation: Sangria doesn't attend baseball games and is speaking from conjecture.
If built, the new ballpark will be successful. New downtown ballparks show an increase in attendance in 100% of the cases, and not just in the first few years. OKC just set a new attendance record more than 10 yrs after opening theirs.
People also seem to assume that the arena will operate with a deficit, but in Des Moines (a cit just over half Tulsa's size) the new 16,000 seat arena makes a large profit and actually makes up the shortfall in the city's other event centers. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080711/NEWS05/807110382
The question presented here is, what to do with the old ballpark? I like the idea of moving the stands to a public park like Mohawk. I'm sure the County is salivating over the vast motel/parking lot possibilities for that corner of Expo Square.
FYI, the Des Moines center is away from the main entertainment areas and probably not walking distance from the ballpark. There downtown is about 5 years ahead of ours IMHO. But ours has more potential and certainly more character.
- - -
Sangria, we currently average around 5,000 people per Driller's game. That is respectable for e AA club (OKC averages around 7500 for AAA in their new stadium). Given that every team with a new stadium sees a bump in attendance, it could be that we "average" a sellout (sellout of seats, this park will have a lot of standing room so the big games will make up the difference to average a sellout).
You're notion of "6 people" attending games is clearly hyperbole, but even the notion is incorrect.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
If they build this new stadium people will go to a few games while it is new and different.
Then it will go back to the same 6 people who go to the games now. They can't even give the tickets away - and that is the truth. Every time they have a Tulsa Drillers story on TV and show the stands they are pretty much empty.(I have noticed since they have proposed the new stadium the media no longer shows the "cheering crowd" in the stands. Hmmmm.....
The exception is when they host the Bedlum game. That game it's packed. But that is a once a year thing.
If the stadium is built they are going to have to find a way to fill it.
They built the new arena and they are going to have to come up with a way to pay for the maintenance - when they build this ball park they are going to have to find a way to pay for it's maintenance too.
I hope both things are a success even after the new wears off. But the cost to opperate them is going to be much more than what they bring in and someone has to pay for it....THAT is reality.
I believe it was stated before that the lease agreement tags the lessee with all maintenance.
The old Ballpark is the ideal size for an OUTDOOR MULTI PURPOSE Facility, which Tulsa lacks.
In Texas the majority of government owned venues and facilities are called MPEC Centers which stands for Multi Purpose Event Centers. Everyone equally pays for these structures and their maintenance, but many are built with just one purpose in mind. Such as naming a building at the Fairgrouds the Live Stock Arena, when that building could of been an MPEC Arena.
The Old Ballpark would be ideal for, in addition to many other configurations if left convertible:
* Micro Sprint Car Racing
* Motorcycle Racing
* ATV Racing
* Motocross
* Shorttrack
* Freestyle Events
* Speedway Motorcycle Racing
We had our company summer training party at the ballpark on Monday night. The Drillers do a great job of those pre-game picnics.
We had 117 people in, eating hamburgers, hotdogs, and ice cream in about ten minutes. The Drillers donated some door prizes to us for lucky numbers (a couple of bobbleheads, some jerseys and some really nice blankets).
The stands were pretty bare because the temperature was about 3,000 degrees. After the sun went down, a few more people showed up.
We could bury the old ball park, and in 50 years dig it back up...
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The old Ballpark is the ideal size for an OUTDOOR MULTI PURPOSE Facility, which Tulsa lacks.
In Texas the majority of government owned venues and facilities are called MPEC Centers which stands for Multi Purpose Event Centers. Everyone equally pays for these structures and their maintenance, but many are built with just one purpose in mind. Such as naming a building at the Fairgrouds the Live Stock Arena, when that building could of been an MPEC Arena.
The Old Ballpark would be ideal for, in addition to many other configurations if left convertible:
* Micro Sprint Car Racing
* Motorcycle Racing
* ATV Racing
* Motocross
* Shorttrack
* Freestyle Events
* Speedway Motorcycle Racing
Which is exactly why it should be moved downtown instead of building a new one, especially with the SemRon private donation shortfall.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The old Ballpark is the ideal size for an OUTDOOR MULTI PURPOSE Facility, which Tulsa lacks.
In Texas the majority of government owned venues and facilities are called MPEC Centers which stands for Multi Purpose Event Centers. Everyone equally pays for these structures and their maintenance, but many are built with just one purpose in mind. Such as naming a building at the Fairgrouds the Live Stock Arena, when that building could of been an MPEC Arena.
The Old Ballpark would be ideal for, in addition to many other configurations if left convertible:
* Micro Sprint Car Racing
* Motorcycle Racing
* ATV Racing
* Motocross
* Shorttrack
* Freestyle Events
* Speedway Motorcycle Racing
Which is exactly why it should be moved downtown instead of building a new one, especially with the SemRon private donation shortfall.
Since you missed the Memo, the drillers want a new stadium not a new location. We're not just wanting to switch mobile home parks here.
Would rather not have even more noise downtown. Silence the trains, then add noisy cars? Build the new stadium then also perhaps move the old ballpark north of Downtown by the Fin Tube property. Or if possible reconfigure the seating, scoreboard etc. for a soccer stadium in that area north of OSU Tulsa with some additional soccer fields around it. I am sure there is some place we could put the old stadium where it would have synergies with other ballfields or be repurposed as a soccer stadium by other soccer fields. Would be good to have it next to similarly used venues so that it is used more often. Whether at the fairgrounds for races or some place else for other sports.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The old Ballpark is the ideal size for an OUTDOOR MULTI PURPOSE Facility, which Tulsa lacks.
In Texas the majority of government owned venues and facilities are called MPEC Centers which stands for Multi Purpose Event Centers. Everyone equally pays for these structures and their maintenance, but many are built with just one purpose in mind. Such as naming a building at the Fairgrouds the Live Stock Arena, when that building could of been an MPEC Arena.
The Old Ballpark would be ideal for, in addition to many other configurations if left convertible:
* Micro Sprint Car Racing
* Motorcycle Racing
* ATV Racing
* Motocross
* Shorttrack
* Freestyle Events
* Speedway Motorcycle Racing
Which is exactly why it should be moved downtown instead of building a new one, especially with the SemRon private donation shortfall.
Since you missed the Memo, the drillers want a new stadium not a new location. We're not just wanting to switch mobile home parks here.
Go figure, AMP would want to use the 'OLD' stadium to drive something with a motor on it round 'n' round! Motorsports will never ever be allowed in an open venue within Tulsa city limits on a regular basis. There's tracks, round/oval/straight, outside the city now.
The thread is
what of the Old Ball Park? Not,
Let's move the Old Ball Park?It's location would be ideal to promote County [County Fairgrounds, duh] and regional
YOUTH sports. Neutral field for playoffs. Playing under the lights? Boosters raising money in the concession stands. Field of dream stuff for kids to desire and strive for!
Promote kids baseball/softball/soccer in Tulsa and get the young families back from the 'burbs!
And maybe someday, there'll be a AMP Jr.
waxing nostalgic about playing pee wee baseball under the lights in that stadium at 15th & Yale when we paid $3.99/gal to drive cars that actually rolled on the streets instead of flying in the air!
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Oh, and I also know of a league that would LOVE to have a team in Tulsa.... USL1 seems to be using the Huey Lewis & the News guide to expansion.... "Tulsa... Austin... Oklahoma City....." [:P]
http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html
...you'd think the guy would at least have the decency to contact me.... go figure...
Regardless, USL1 wants to be in Tulsa, would like to make an announcement in the next month (I'm betting on OKC/Edmond playing at Wantland)... and would prefer to use the Roughnecks' name for a Tulsa team to go with the Tampa Bay Rowdies.... they're open to suggestions.... so somebody (anybody) important with lotsa money please contact them so I can finally get taken off their email list.... [;)]
quote:
Dear USL Franchise Prospect,
USL has been having a tremendous 2008 season! So far 987 games have been played, 3,075 goals scored, and nearly 950,000 fans watching. 121 games to go until we begin preperations for the 2009 season.
We hope to bring the USL excitement to your city or town in 2009 or 2010. If you are interested in applying for a USL expansion franchise with the USL First Division, USL Second Division, USL Premier Development League, or USL W-League, please visit:
http://www.uslfranchising.com
username: umbro
password: 1924
I'm sure I'm breaking rules by giving the readers of TulsaNow forum the username and pw, but hey, what are they gonna do? Sue me?!?
Login, look at the International Partnerships Presentation You'll see the basic sales pitch first, scroll to page 57 for operating expenses, then page 58 for Austin's new team--- then scroll to page 64, then to page 65 (Omaha) and then page 66 (Okla. City)...
It'd be nice if Tulsa at least had its own page-- hint, hint....
BTW, TU hasn't had a baseball team since old Oiler Park collapsed-- when I was a kid, I remember going to old Oiler Park to see TU versus OU... they added men's soccer in 1980? or 1981?..... another bit of Bob-Costas-esque trivia rattling around in my brain... the 1985 Tulsa Roughnecks played a short season even after the league they played in collapsed and cancelled their season..... they played an exhibition schedule of 7-games..... at Driller Park...
god I'm old.... but then again, so's Beth Rengal, Chris Lincoln, and Linda Soundtrak.... [:I]
Ok, I looked at your link. I noticed Tulsa was listed on page 64-- "Prime Market Samples." Drillers Stadium seems favorable for a USL-1 team, given that the seating capacity is around 10,000. On another note, where does TU play soccer? I'm assuming it's a small stadium on campus. Any chance of possible upgrade? Could some of the Drillers Stadium grandstands be installed at TU? To me, TU's location in the city is more conducive to an overall positive fan experience than the fairgrounds.
If a soccer team did locate at the old(present) Drillers Stadium, I would think some of the area fronting 15th St. could be used for retail, restaurant, or hotel space, etc. Surely it could only help the State Fair for some existing infrastructure to be in place on the fairgrounds, other than the nearby big-box stores.
Just my two cents...
Not true that there are no outdoor
racetracks located in Tulsa. I would
like to see a vote of the people in Tulsa regarding funding for a multi purpose
racing facility in Tulsa or in the
County. I bet there would at least be
a hell of alot more than 18% turnout for that project.
Actually there are several Racetracks
in the Tulsa City limits that set the
stage, and have been for many years.
The Dragstrip, Southwest Raceway, Inc.,
which became Tulsa International Raceway and is known today as Tulsa Raceway Park
is located on Highway 169 near Pine
street is one of the largest, and loudest
in the city. Prior to that location,
dragracing was held at the
Tulsa Downtown Airpark just north
of 36th street at Osage Drive.
Tulsa Raceway Park (//%22http://www.tulsaracewaypark.com/%22)
(//%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttp://www.tulsaracewaypark.com/Logos/TRPlogo-dan.jpg)
(http://hometown.aol.com/blwnfuel/67pass.jpg) Tulsa Hosted the NHRA World FINALS in 1965 through 1968!
(http://hometown.aol.com/blwnfuel/69patch.jpg)
(http://hometown.aol.com/blwnfuel/smith.jpg)
Then there is the Tulsa Quarter Midget Association's track located at Nety Park on north Yale.
The Tulsa Quarter Midget Track, which was built in the early 1950s, has stood the test of time and has remained in the same location since it was built. It is located at 1901 North Yale, just North of Pine.
50th Anniversary Photos: Tulsa Quarter Midget Association (//%22http://www.tulsaquartermidgets.com/50th_anniversary.asp%22)
There is also Junior Raceway Park
5920 West 51st South Tulsa, OK
(http://www.jrpspeedway.com/Kart_Track1.png)
Road Course at JRP Raceway
(http://www.jrpspeedway.com/JRPOval2.jpg)
1/4 Mile Asphalt Oval at JRP Raceway
JRP Speedway (//%22http://www.jrpspeedway.com/index.htm%22)
There is the Tulsa Kart Club Racetrack
2715 N Madison Ave, Tulsa
There is Tulsa Motocross Raceway
9602 E Mohawk Blvd, Tulsa, OK
Tulsa Motocross Raceway (//%22http://www.tulsamx.com/main/%22)
Then there is Port City Raceway
15625 E Pine St - Tulsa, OK
Port City Raceway (//%22http://www.portcityracin.com%22)
The original Tulsa Speedway, was downtown at the old Tulsa Fairgrounds near where the Home Depot is today.
It then moved to the New Tulsa Fairgrounds
at 21st and Yale. The track
at the Fairgrounds, which was
originally built and paid for by the
Motorsports Industry, ticket buyers,
sponsors and advertisers.
Photos that have 1926
dating from the Beryl Ford collection held
by the Tulsa Historical Society show there
were not houses east or south of the
racetrack. The paved intersection of
21st and Yale ended in dirt roads in
both the east and north directions,
however the racetrack was going strong
at that time.
The Art Deco Grandstands were very large,
don't have attendance figuers from that
era, but based on the size of the stands,
one would think they had a decent crowd.
Later the wooden grandstands burned down.
They were replaced with the Shoe Warehouse Exibition building, and the entrance to the Speedway was through the center of that building where the concessions are
today. Parking for the races was on the
west side where the midway for the Fair is today.
Then the track was re-designed and re-built
as Tulsa Speedway #3, a 5/8s mile high speed wide full tilt boogie dirttrack. The design included moving tons of dirt to form a bowl shape to create a noise barrier to help hold the noise inside the bowl. Thus the raised dirt wall on the Yale side. Paul Prestige
with the Tulsa World newspaper wrote an article about the design which included noise reduction. That is the track that is
presently at the Fairgrounds
Tulsa Speedway was evicted by fiat from the Fairgrounds and re-located at the 66th
Street North exit and Hwy 75 near Harvard avenue. That is Tulsa Speedway #4 which
is still there today.
3900 E 66th St N
Tulsa, OK 74101
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A0487.jpg)
Tulsa Speedway #1 at the Fairgrounds.
Lower left hand corner is the Pavillion.
This is the Art Deco Grandstands. Note
where the Ballpark is located, that was
the Oilers Park not the Drillers Park.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1276.jpg)
This was the racetrack located in downtown Tulsa at the Tulsa Fairgrounds.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D7058.jpg)
Tulsa Speedway #1 after the stands burned down.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/C0413.jpg)Tulsa Speedway #1 Note there are no homes on the south side of 21st Street.
The Tulsa County Fair Board allowed Emmett Hahn to produce up to 8 races at the 5/8 mile track on the Fairgrounds. Two where held after the metal fence was installed around the track. Both were USAC Weld Racing Silver Crown events. Both were 100 laps and called the Tulsa 100.
Bud Kaeding Scores First USAC Silver Crown Win
Yeley Clinches - By Dick Jordan, 09/14/03
Tulsa, OK. ...Bud Kaeding of Campbell, Calif. recorded his initial USAC Weld Racing Silver Crown race victory in Sunday's O'Reilly "Tulsa 100" at the Tulsa Fairgrounds Motorplex in Tulsa, Okla. Kaeding was leading when the race was halted for the second time due to track conditions and checkered flagged after 77 of the scheduled 100 laps. The race had been halted 24 laps earlier for track conditions and maintenance. J.J. Yeley finished second and emerged with a 72-point lead in the series standings with only 66 available in the series finale October 10-11 at Syracuse, N.Y. "I had the dominant car today," admitted a happy Kaeding in victory lane. "We gambled with softer tires at the start and I was worried about them in the later laps but we never got to where I had to abuse them.
We were lucky when the red came out at lap 53 because I had broken a shock and we were able to fix that. It's been a while since I've run these cars on dirt and we were really confident, so I don't think things would have changed if we'd run the full 100."
Those racetracks may be "in the city". But they are no where near where I would live, nor would I allow one to be near me. And that from someone who lived right next to I44 lol. We want downtown to be an Urban Neighborhood, less noise richocheting of skyscrapers the better. The the occasional loud concert or game is enough. Motoracing downtown, is pushing it.
Good thing folks in Indianapolis, Indiana;
Daytona Beach, Florida; Knoxville, Iowa
and other cities that love the money
brought in from the motorsports industry
don't think that way, or we would not
have the Indy 500, Knoxville Nationals
Daytona 500, and other traditional races.
Always been interesting to me that the
Tulsa Speedway at the Fairgrounds
was in existence long before the houses
were built there and had over
14,000 ticket holders on most Saturday nights.
So, the racing should be located where? And
what part of the Fairgrounds
"Master Plan" included the eviction of the
Tulsa Speedway that was there
long before other structures?
Bells was not the first business that was a
long term tenant, that lots of Tulsans
enjoyed, to be evicted from the
Fairgrounds.
"Promote kids baseball/softball/soccer in Tulsa and get the young families back from the 'burbs!"
Interesting how quickly folks forget about attempts that fail. Baseball/Softball thing has already been tried at the Fairgrounds. After the Board evicted Stanly Durrett and Tulsa Speedway they had a man from Okmulgee bring in Softball to the infield of the racetrack. They built around 18 ball fileds with backstops, planted grass, built dugouts, installed lights. This was before the Horse people got that facility. Fairgrounds thought the softball was going to be the salvation. It was quiet, easy to maintain, and were told that teams from all over the US would come for tournaments there due to the central location. At one meeting we were told all the stores surrounding the Fairgrounds would be opening up selling athlethic equipment, bats, balls, gloves, uniforms. Those folks had 18 ball fields to work with. Success in that venture didn't happen then, doubt if it would today. But who knows?
Not sure if the Softball deal drew more or less than the Horse Races draw today. I do know the Modified and Super Modified races drew upwards of 13,000 on Saturday nights at Tulsa Speedway at the Fairgrounds prior to their eviction.
One would think there was a good reason, both financially and to please the taxpayer constituents, to of allowed the Racetrack to occupy that much space at the Fairgrounds.
I don't have the stats on the numbers of stick and ball sports, however I do have the stats on the number of ATVs sold in Oklahoma last year. Over 60,000 ATVs were sold in 2007. Not sure how many baseball bats, footballs, basketballs or horses were sold in Oklahoma that year.
One may see the growth that many Tulsa young families are into involving progressive modern powersports such as Micro Racing, Motocross, ATV racing cross country and other forms, based on the numbers of tracks located in Oklahoma.
Youth classes are the largest in most forms of sportsman powersports today. Micro Sprint Car Track in Tulsa averages 120-150 participants per night during their racing season. Majority of the participants are are youth, with some in their 20s and 30s. Motorcycle Road Racing in this area averages 600 participants on a given weekend, MX is around 450, Dirttrack ATV and Motorcycle is around 300, karting is around 200.
Should powersports be allowed in schools, and run at the school stadiums with school funding and school teams, one would most likely see those numbers grow very quickly.
Competitive competition in racing has constantly brought on new innovative advancements in safety and better transportation devices.
The state of Indiana and the state of Kansas are two progressive areas that have addressed the issue of motorsports and poured millions of tax dollars into their facilities and education programs. Indiana has The Business of Motorsports curriculum in their schools and colleges. Kansas revived Heartland Park and made it one of the premier tracks for NHRA in the nation. SCCA's corporate headquarters is located there in Topeka, Kansas.
"State Rep. Ann Mah waited her turn to ride and talked about how the project gives Topekans another reason to feel good about their city while putting Heartland Park on the fast track to bringing millions of additional dollars each year into the local economy."
"Mah, D-Topeka, said she expects Kansas to become "the racing heart of the nation" because of the presence of Heartland Park and Wyandotte County's Kansas Speedway."
http://www.indianamotorsports.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=77
http://hpt.com/store/catalog/
I do have the Economic Impact to Tulsa from one week of motorsports stats.
Quote from the Tulsa World
Hear that earth-rattling roar?
"That's the sound of an estimated $12 million pushing the throttle on Tulsa's economy, thanks to the Chili Bowl."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070110_Ne_A9_Chili2458
Economic Impact Study of Motorsports
http://www.belkcollege.uncc.edu/news/Motorsports%20Report%2010-05-04.pdf
For the bean counter folks to digest ....
[http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=12473
"The motorsports industry is expected to grow at a rapid pace. The USA Motorsport Report estimates that the national value of motorsports in the United States will grow from $16.5 billion in 2002 to $22 billion in 2007, a 33 percent increase. Locally, those interviewed project a growth rate of 37 percent over the next five years."
"This report is a follow-up to the study Connaughton and Madsen conducted in 2004, which found that motorsports generated $5 billion of economic impact on the North Carolina economy in 2003. In addition, the industry supported over 24,000 high quality jobs."
http://www.belkcollege.uncc.edu/default.asp?id=66&objId=10
Hopefully, Drillers Stadium will not suffer the fate thatCompadre Stadium (//%22http://www.digitalballparks.com/Arizona/Compadre1.html%22) did in Chandler AZ. But this shows the fickle nature of spring training and what is now one-upsmanship in spring traing facilities. There are several that any AA or AAA teams would love to call home.Cactus League (//%22http://cactusleague.com/c_map.php%22)
But some of these may fall to the way side as clubs want bigger better facilities, and communities are willing to help finance them as more move from Florida to Arizona.
I think it would be great for Drillers Stadium to attract College World Series regional, Softball World series regional, high school state championship, and MLS Soccer. It's a great facility and it would be a loss to Tulsa if it jst sat dormant, or the Murhpy's got it turned into a parking lot.
I have to agree with AMP that at it's prime the Tulsa Speedway in the 70's and 80's was one of the best dirt tracks in the region, and alot of NASCAR, USAC, World of Outlaws drivers cut there teeth there, just as I can remember watching Sammy Sosa, Bobby Valentine, and many others make there way into the majors at Driller Stadium.
If it turns out like OKC's Fairgrounds, the old ballpark will end up being a parking lot.
Oiler Park didn't last long after the structual problems there. I always liked that park and the location, eaiser to park on each side less walking distance.
Perhaps Sally Bell or Karen Keith will have a different vision other than another parking lot, regarding phase 5 of the "Master Plan"
At least build an attraction in the center of one of those giant lots so we don't have to walk the entire distance when arriving late.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
If it turns out like OKC's Fairgrounds, the old ballpark will end up being a parking lot.
Perhaps Sally Bell or Karen Keith will have a different vision other than another parking lot, regarding phase 5 of the "Master Plan"
I hope that Sally Bell has ideas for more year round usage for the Fair Grounds (and no axes to grind) since the family has had a relation with the fairgrounds for years, and I think Karen Keith has a vested interest in things the way she was in her time in the media. I can't speak for her time in the political arena since I haven't been there for 10 years, but from what I have been reading over the last few months it sounds like there needs to be a lot of changes in the way that things are done.
AMP, do you really think a race car track has a chance of going in at the fairgrounds? The noise pollution would effect thousands of homes. I live over a mile away and would certainly be able to hear it though not at a level to concern me (I can hear the fireworks from Driller's stadium, a stock car race seems a lot louder than a fireworks show). A good number to a crippling degree (crippling being can't readily watch TV in my own house and/or go outside without hearing protection). The loss in property value would be astounding.
I'm a casual race fan. If a new subdivision demands an old track be moved, the hell with them. But to place a race track, hog lot, or other nuisance in the middle of an existing neighborhood simply won't happen. As much of an economic engine as it might be, as much as other people might like it, it's just not going to happen.
- - -
Really, it's hardly worth discussing. Unless there is an alternative that I don't know about that is not deafeningly loud, it's just not going to happen.
Multi Purpose Event Center
The photos I posted are of Tulsa Speedway at the Tulsa Expo Square Fairgrounds at 21st and Yale area. If you look close you will notice there are NO HOUSES within miles of the track when it was built. Again, the Master Plan should of excluded housing around the Fairgrounds, or written a decree that builders/buyers should of accepted the fact they were buying near a Public Event Center Facility that created noise and traffic. Similar to building/buying near an existing major airport. Are we going back to the "Chicken and the Egg" question?
Last I checked, the Racetrack at the Fairgrounds is allowed to host up to 8 Races a season. Plus Sand Drag Races, Motorcycle races, Monster Truck events and or Tractor Pulls during the Fair dates. Motorcyle racing is held indoors at the Livestock building up to four times a year. Racing is held indoors at the IPE/Expo/QuikTrip Center building Thanksgiving weekend, and two weekends in Dec and January. With over 70,000 tickets sold to the Chili Bowl alone and their long list of folks waiting to gain a ticket, one would gather that there are folks that enjoy this form of entertainment. Not sure how many tickets the Eagles will sell in Tulsa at the BOK Arena, but I doubt it will top the Starbird Show or the Chili Bowl numbers, and considering the length of time the motorsports shows run, four to five days, the hotel/motel and restaurant revenue is far greater than for a one night stand.
Add in the 65,000 that attend the Monster Truck Races and Motorcycle Free Style Exhibition at the Starbird Show, the large crowd at the Tulsa Shootout, Tulsa Arenacross, Xtreme World Arenacross. Add up the total number of tickets sold to those motorsports events and the number is around 150,000 gear heads both, local and from out of state, that enjoy motorsports events held at the Fairgrounds.
Because the Fairgrounds facilities are now subsidized by Tulsa County/City taxpayers (4-to-fix + Vision 2025), one would believe that is a Multi-Purpose Facility and not just a Horse/Livestock facility. But who knows?
Be interesting to know how many of those taxpayers would enjoy having auto racing back at the facility they are helping to pay for every day at the cash register. Based on the numbers of other motorsports events held at the Fairgroudns, one would think there would be far more tickets sold for motorsports productions than the current Horse Races are drawing. Do the Horse Racing folks publish there attendance numbers?
Motorsport Racing has continued at State Fair Speedway in Oklahoma City each and every Friday night for over 50 years.
State Fair Speedway Oklahoma City (//%22http://www.statefairspeedway.com/%22)
There are no noise regulations in the City of Tulsa from 6am until 10pm. Most sanctions require a 95db muffler system which has lowered the noise issues.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Multi Purpose Event Center
The photos I posted are of Tulsa Speedway at the Tulsa Expo Square Fairgrounds at 21st and Yale area. If you look close you will notice there are NO HOUSES within miles of the track when it was built. Again, the Master Plan should of excluded housing around the Fairgrounds, or written a decree that builders/buyers should of accepted the fact they were buying near a Public Event Center Facility that created noise and traffic. Similar to building/buying near an existing major airport. Are we going back to the "Chicken and the Egg" question?
Last I checked, the Racetrack at the Fairgrounds is allowed to host up to 8 Races a season. Plus Sand Drag Races, Motorcycle races, Monster Truck events and or Tractor Pulls during the Fair dates. Motorcyle racing is held indoors at the Livestock building up to four times a year. Racing is held indoors at the IPE/Expo/QuikTrip Center building Thanksgiving weekend, and two weekends in Dec and January. With over 70,000 tickets sold to the Chili Bowl alone and their long list of folks waiting to gain a ticket, one would gather that there are folks that enjoy this form of entertainment. Not sure how many tickets the Eagles will sell in Tulsa at the BOK Arena, but I doubt it will top the Starbird Show or the Chili Bowl numbers, and considering the length of time the motorsports shows run, four to five days, the hotel/motel and restaurant revenue is far greater than for a one night stand.
Add in the 65,000 that attend the Monster Truck Races and Motorcycle Free Style Exhibition at the Starbird Show, the large crowd at the Tulsa Shootout, Tulsa Arenacross, Xtreme World Arenacross. Add up the total number of tickets sold to those motorsports events and the number is around 150,000 gear heads both, local and from out of state, that enjoy motorsports events held at the Fairgrounds.
Because the Fairgrounds facilities are now subsidized by Tulsa County/City taxpayers (4-to-fix + Vision 2025), one would believe that is a Multi-Purpose Facility and not just a Horse/Livestock facility. But who knows?
Be interesting to know how many of those taxpayers would enjoy having auto racing back at the facility they are helping to pay for every day at the cash register. Based on the numbers of other motorsports events held at the Fairgroudns, one would think there would be far more tickets sold for motorsports productions than the current Horse Races are drawing. Do the Horse Racing folks publish there attendance numbers?
Motorsport Racing has continued at State Fair Speedway in Oklahoma City each and every Friday night for over 50 years.
State Fair Speedway Oklahoma City (//%22http://www.statefairspeedway.com/%22)
There are no noise regulations in the City of Tulsa from 6am until 10pm. Most sanctions require a 95db muffler system which has lowered the noise issues.
Is part of the Murphy Carny family's long-range plan, besides running off Bell's Amusement Park, to demolish Driller Stadium, which is right next to their Big Splash Water Park, and build a new Amusement Park on the former Stadium grounds?
Murphy Brother's Amusement and Swim Park?
Thanks for the reasoned reply AMP.
A handful of races with the 95 db restriction wouldn't bother me a bit. I think that could get by. And I do think it would be a financial success.
I was not aware of the 95 db restriction. While 6-10 cars running at 95 db would be loud, it would not be the deafening roar I remember from stock car races in Iowa. It should be noted, though, that 95 db is still about the level of a jackhammer or an outboard boat motor. 10 of those would be very loud. A single item at 95 db is rated by OSHA has causing "Serious Hearing Damage."
THUS, a handful of events would probably be OK. 5 or 10 times a year won't kill anyones property values (but still wouldn't be welcomed). But at that low utilization rate I doubt the money would be there to build a track.
You know better I, but I still don't think it's in the cards. Thanks again for clarifying things for me.
This was tried again in 2003 and 2004 and was a failure. I wouldn't worry about any more outdoor races at the fairgrounds, Cannon.
Tulsa Speedway attracted an average of 7500 fans a night during the season, about 10,500 during the fair back in the 1970's. I believe the highest fan count Hugh Finnerty ever had was 12,000 during the fair one year.
After the deaths of Jr. Taft and Gene Daniel in 1981, the move to the 3/8" mile track which was further away from the fans, and the oil bust, Tulsa Speedway could call a crowd of 5000 outstanding.
I don't believe the facility at 66th St. N. ever had a crowd larger than 4000 for it's weekly sprint car show. Average was more like 3000 to 3500. I don't think Creek County gets much more than 1500 fans per night.
Tulsa Speedway closed without so much as a whimper.
The demand for local auto racing isn't as strong as it used to be. The 65,000 people you cite as attending the monster truck races and freestyle MC exhibition is inaccurate. Most people are there to look at the cars, not watch the races.
I used to race my mini sprint in the Starbird winter series. The biggest crowd I ever raced in front of was "maybe" 8000 at the Myriad in OKC or the Colisseum in Wichita. Darryl never had seats for more than about 4000 to 5000 set up in the Expo building in Tulsa.
The 70,000 Chili Bowl tickets you cite are mostly the same people going to all five nights. I don't remember the exact figure Emmett had told me last time I asked, but I believe about 70% of Chili Bowl attendees come from out of town.
I'm nostalgic about races at the fairgrounds. I used to go back during the heyday when the lastest incarnation of the speedway on the fairgrounds was only a year old and they had fields of 40 modifieds and 40 supers every week along with 100 street stocks. Great times, but that's been 33 years ago. One of my favorite childhood summertime sounds aside from locusts, was the sound of the cars at the speedway on Saturday nights when I wasn't at the races.
Times change, interests change. There's nowhere near enough support for an outdoor track at the fairgrounds, and why start up a major **** storm with the neighbors?
If we are gonna do racetracks, let's do something new, unique, and completely different that will really put us on the map. The infernal combustion engine is so passe. I've said it before, but it bears repeating.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys (//%22http://www.teslamotors.com/%22) fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/tesla.jpg)
There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.
Chili Bowl sells 70,000 tickets sold over 5 days and 85% are from out of town, which is what most attractions are looking for to boost the economy. A concert featuring an out of state artist typically extracts money out of the local economy rather than adding money to the local economy as many motorsports programs allow.
"It is expected the fifth night will quickly sell out, pushing the five-day total of expected fans to about 75,000."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectID=203&articleID=20080718_203_B1_pncase724513
That does not account for the Pit Passes which are in addition to the 70,000 reserved seating tickets. Based on the five day tickets versus the single day tickets one could determine the repeat ticket holders, but the count of repeat versus separate folks with other single tickets may vary.
The 65,000 that walk the Starbird show, most take a seat for one of if not all of the four shows produced at the Budweiser Action Arena in the lower level. They can also view from atop along the railing and do not have to watch the entire program as they make laps looking at the cars, watching the bands and attending the Bikini Show. It seats around 8,500-10,000 depending how it is configured for the Starbird show. There are typically four performances, Friday night, Saturday Matinee, Saturday night and Sunday Matinee. We have had it packed with people, security had to stop people from coming down the ramp and there was a larg crowd standing on the upper level looking over the railing for the two AMA Arenacross events I produced there. We switched to the Free Style program as it is much eaiser to produce, which continues to date.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Chili Bowl sells 70,000 tickets sold over 5 days and 85% are from out of town, which is what most attractions are looking for to boost the economy. A concert featuring an out of state artist typically extracts money out of the local economy rather than adding money to the local economy as many motorsports programs allow.
"It is expected the fifth night will quickly sell out, pushing the five-day total of expected fans to about 75,000."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectID=203&articleID=20080718_203_B1_pncase724513
That does not account for the Pit Passes which are in addition to the 70,000 reserved seating tickets. Based on the five day tickets versus the single day tickets one could determine the repeat ticket holders, but the count of repeat versus separate folks with other single tickets may vary.
The 65,000 that walk the Starbird show, most take a seat for one of if not all of the four shows produced at the Budweiser Action Arena in the lower level. They can also view from atop along the railing and do not have to watch the entire program as they make laps looking at the cars, watching the bands and attending the Bikini Show. It seats around 8,500-10,000 depending how it is configured for the Starbird show. There are typically four performances, Friday night, Saturday Matinee, Saturday night and Sunday Matinee. We have had it packed with people, security had to stop people from coming down the ramp and there was a larg crowd standing on the upper level looking over the railing for the two AMA Arenacross events I produced there. We switched to the Free Style program as it is much eaiser to produce, which continues to date.
And your numbers still prove nothing scientific about having regular races at the fairgrounds. Tulsa's hardcore circle track auto racing fans (no offense, but watching NAPCAR every Sunday doesn't count) numbers about 3000 to 3500 these days and has for the last 25+ years.
If there was a demand for outdoor racing at the fairgrounds, Emmett Hahn would still be promoting it. He learned his lesson with the USAC shows he promoted. Granted some of that was a poor track surface and poor officiating on USAC's part. Bottom line is, it was not a sucessful venture.
Your own numbers on the Chili Bowl shows about 2100 locals buying tickets per night. Last thing we need is a tax-payer subsidized racing program at the fairgrounds. No one tracks the pit pass purchases, nor where those people live.
Point is, Tulsans will come out for special shows, but they just don't support weekly racing like they used to.
You asked about Fair Meadows: according to a story in the World last week, Ron Shotts said average daily attendence during the last meet was 900 with a handle of $60,000. Pretty pathetic. They said casinos have produced a steady downward slide the last five years. At it's peak, the handle was $600,000 per day.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
If we are gonna do racetracks, let's do something new, unique, and completely different that will really put us on the map. The infernal combustion engine is so passe. I've said it before, but it bears repeating.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
I'd like to see Tulsa open a track for electric vehicles only. I'd pay to watch these bad boys (//%22http://www.teslamotors.com/%22) fly around the track with zero emissions and almost no noise. I think this would really put Tulsa on the map in a progressive, pioneering, way. For once, we'd be leading the way instead of following everyone else.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/tesla.jpg)
There might be some fast electric motorcycles on the horizon. Tulsans love motorcycles, too.
I dunno, just wouldn't seem like racing witout the roar and vibration to me.
And what of the Old Ball Park? is the main topic here.
Keep the ball park. Use it "to attract College World Series regional, Softball World series regional, high school state championships, and MLS Soccer. It's a great facility and it would be a loss to Tulsa if it just sat dormant," It would be stupid to tear it down! It can be used.
The other points made about motorized racing:
..., Tulsans will come out for special shows, but they just don't support weekly racing like they used to. is accurate. Nobody will allow weekly motor noise to emanate from the fairgrounds.
I can wax nostalgic with you AMP! I went to many a stockcar race with my older brother when I was a kid and loved it! My family grew up around 36th & Harvard and I can remember the 'sounds' of the races on a hot summer night! I could also find a discarded pop bottle and return it at Git'n'Go for 5 pcs. of SuperBubble.
All the Tulsa racing venues you mentioned either existed or moved from the middle of town.
Yes, the race track existed at the fairgrounds before houses were built, but so did my elementary school, Eisenhower, at 27th & New Haven. You know Tulsa's growth history. Your dad's own store sat across the street from a farm for most of its existence.
Let's not try to rebuild Old Driller Ballpark, but use it in it's current form. Same with the horse track. Add Trotter horse/harness racing. You want motorized activity, have some tractor pulls. Even draft horse pulls like the fair would be fun! BMX bicycle race track on the infield!
I think Octoberfest could even be moved to the infield at the fairgrounds track [new thread?]! Most people park there anyway. Cut down on fuel for shuttle buses. Octoberfest lost several picnic tables in last year's storm and had to struggle to get enough for this year even though they use some on trade with the fairgrounds. [once again, maybe a new thread]
But let's drop the AMP'd hope of the return of weekly stock car racing at the faigrounds.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Oh, and I also know of a league that would LOVE to have a team in Tulsa.... USL1 seems to be using the Huey Lewis & the News guide to expansion.... "Tulsa... Austin... Oklahoma City....." [:P]
http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html
...you'd think the guy would at least have the decency to contact me.... go figure...
Regardless, USL1 wants to be in Tulsa, would like to make an announcement in the next month (I'm betting on OKC/Edmond playing at Wantland)... and would prefer to use the Roughnecks' name for a Tulsa team to go with the Tampa Bay Rowdies.... they're open to suggestions.... so somebody (anybody) important with lotsa money please contact them so I can finally get taken off their email list.... [;)]
quote:
Dear USL Franchise Prospect,
USL has been having a tremendous 2008 season! So far 987 games have been played, 3,075 goals scored, and nearly 950,000 fans watching. 121 games to go until we begin preperations for the 2009 season.
We hope to bring the USL excitement to your city or town in 2009 or 2010. If you are interested in applying for a USL expansion franchise with the USL First Division, USL Second Division, USL Premier Development League, or USL W-League, please visit:
http://www.uslfranchising.com
username: umbro
password: 1924
I'm sure I'm breaking rules by giving the readers of TulsaNow forum the username and pw, but hey, what are they gonna do? Sue me?!?
Login, look at the International Partnerships Presentation You'll see the basic sales pitch first, scroll to page 57 for operating expenses, then page 58 for Austin's new team--- then scroll to page 64, then to page 65 (Omaha) and then page 66 (Okla. City)...
It'd be nice if Tulsa at least had its own page-- hint, hint....
BTW, TU hasn't had a baseball team since old Oiler Park collapsed-- when I was a kid, I remember going to old Oiler Park to see TU versus OU... they added men's soccer in 1980? or 1981?..... another bit of Bob-Costas-esque trivia rattling around in my brain... the 1985 Tulsa Roughnecks played a short season even after the league they played in collapsed and cancelled their season..... they played an exhibition schedule of 7-games..... at Driller Park...
god I'm old.... but then again, so's Beth Rengal, Chris Lincoln, and Linda Soundtrak.... [:I]
Ok, I looked at your link. I noticed Tulsa was listed on page 64-- "Prime Market Samples." Drillers Stadium seems favorable for a USL-1 team, given that the seating capacity is around 10,000. On another note, where does TU play soccer? I'm assuming it's a small stadium on campus. Any chance of possible upgrade? Could some of the Drillers Stadium grandstands be installed at TU? To me, TU's location in the city is more conducive to an overall positive fan experience than the fairgrounds.
If a soccer team did locate at the old(present) Drillers Stadium, I would think some of the area fronting 15th St. could be used for retail, restaurant, or hotel space, etc. Surely it could only help the State Fair for some existing infrastructure to be in place on the fairgrounds, other than the nearby big-box stores.
Just my two cents...
TU plays at the Hurricane Soccer/Track&Field Stadium, it holds around 2,000?... didn't seem like it could hold that many when I went there, but TU soccer doesn't get alot of publicity in the paper or on tv, so here's the info... http://tulsahurricane.cstv.com/facilities/tuls-soccer-field.html
Here's Creighton's Morrison Stadium in Omaha, NE...
(http://www.bradwilliamsphotography.com/images/CREIGHTON_002sm.jpg)
(http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics22/400/TX/TXAORUYTBRGKTGH.20070817212437.jpg)
Take the signs off the outfield at Driller Park and extending the grass berm could be simple enough... doesn't have to be like the pic below, but you get the idea....
(http://www2.creighton.edu/fileadmin/user/ADA/images/Morrison_Stadium/soccer_3.jpg)
Since we seem to be going down memory lane on this thread, here's soccer attendance from kenn.com-- look at Tulsa from 1978-84...
http://kenn.com/blog/?page_id=504
The guy who runs the blog is from Tampa, but also worked for a USL team in Indy and did some broadcast work for the Chicago Fire.... here's his take on Tulsa's NASL years...
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=15283300&postcount=24
Yeah, I thought Tulsa was a good market in the "oh, yeah, I forgot about Tulsa" size markets. Might be a decent market again, someday.
I hadn't thought of it in terms of "markets" before, though. Interestingly enough, if you combine all the teams in the various markets in which the NASL had teams over the years, you get these standings in average attendance (only one metric by which you might try to determine the "best markets"):
Market...................Avg.
Minneapolis.............22,872
New York/New Jersey.....22,148
Tampa Bay...............19,062
Seattle.................18,322
Vancouver...............16,633
Tulsa...................14,471
San Francisco Bay Area..12,304
Portland................12,194
Montreal................11,902
Calgary.................10,501***I don't think people realize that TU and ORU are the only NCAA D-1 men's soccer teams in the state... TU is Top 25 material again this year... rivals are SMU, Creighton... last year's TU goalkeeper Dominic Cervi is an alternate and is with the Olympic team in Beijing...
This is one format of racing I would like to see at a decent outdoor statium here. Not like Auto Racing, this precision with less noise. Albeit they do burn Nitro Methane fuel!
(http://msjspeedway.com/gallery/albums/userpics/Schlein_Bjerre_3L0B9459.jpg)
(http://www.millenniumstadium.com/images/news/speedway-news.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1173/869085299_d9cfdc0fb2.jpg?v=0)
(http://glynnhewitt.com/images/sideways.jpg)
AMP, you forgot, no brakes either.
I always wanted to go to Ascot Park just once before they closed to see a speedway bike race on the speedway track and a CRA sprint car race on the 1/2 mile.
Sadly, that's where our friend Ted Boody met his end.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Sadly, that's where our friend Ted Boody met his end.
http://www.tedboody.com
RIP Ted
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Sadly, that's where our friend Ted Boody met his end.
http://www.tedboody.com
RIP Ted
Can't believe it's been 20 years already. Seems like yesterday.