Not sure if this has already been commented on but the Mayo Building (in Bartlett Square) is apparently becoming a new downtown YMCA. I walked by at lunch and saw blueprints laying on the floor near the window. Some construction is going on inside as well. This is pretty cool if it actually come to be!
Does this mean more homeless around Bartlett Square? Would this replace the other Y only a few blocks away? I've never been to the Y downtown. Why would it be replaced/expanded? Nevertheless, I do know the Y is used frequently by many people so I'm glad to see something fill that building.
Y's getting rid of thier homeless services.
Think "YMCA: Place to work out" instead of "YMCA: place to work out of"
I've heard for awhile that the current Y is supposed to go. It has a terrible location and is in the way. Any guesses what happens to that building/land? More surface parking? [:o)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I've heard for awhile that the current Y is supposed to go. It has a terrible location and is in the way. Any guesses what happens to that building/land? More surface parking? [:o)]
Maybe it can be turned into afforable apartments? I mean people have been living there all these years it couldn't be that difficult. PLEASE no more surface parking!!
I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.
The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.
The whole Civic square area looks aweful. I hate all those buildings. I was actually glad when City Hall moved just cause it meant that building may be torn down. Obviously, there were mixed emotions because of the money spent to buy, furnish and move to the new building. But man, its almost worth it.
If it's any consolation, new City Hall came fully furnished. :D
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.
The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.
From the center spread of
Tulsa I. T., a 1957 tourist guide to "America's Most Beautiful City" (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2007/01/tulsa-1957-take-1.html%22):
quote:
Tulsa county's new $4 million courthouse, the new inspiring YMCA, the fabulous Gilcrease Institute, Mohawk park and zoo, and the American Airlines Overhaul and Supply Depot are places and points of interest well worth seeing, even though they are off the beaten path of the Tulsa Tour.
The YMCA and the Courthouse make up two of the nine photos on the description of the Tulsa Tour -- two buildings most worthy of admiration and attention, according to the Chamber of Commerce in 1957. Funny how tastes change.
The postcard principle?
(http://www.usgwarchives.org/ok/tulsa/postcards/ymca.jpg)
Source: USGenWeb Archives
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.
The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.
From the center spread of Tulsa I. T., a 1957 tourist guide to "America's Most Beautiful City" (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2007/01/tulsa-1957-take-1.html%22):
quote:
Tulsa county's new $4 million courthouse, the new inspiring YMCA, the fabulous Gilcrease Institute, Mohawk park and zoo, and the American Airlines Overhaul and Supply Depot are places and points of interest well worth seeing, even though they are off the beaten path of the Tulsa Tour.
The YMCA and the Courthouse make up two of the nine photos on the description of the Tulsa Tour -- two buildings most worthy of admiration and attention, according to the Chamber of Commerce in 1957. Funny how tastes change.
Stop living 50 years ago. That is 99 percent of what is wrong with this community. Our preponderance to living in the past. We should celebrate it, but not try to hold on to it.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.
The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.
From the center spread of Tulsa I. T., a 1957 tourist guide to "America's Most Beautiful City" (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2007/01/tulsa-1957-take-1.html%22):
quote:
Tulsa county's new $4 million courthouse, the new inspiring YMCA, the fabulous Gilcrease Institute, Mohawk park and zoo, and the American Airlines Overhaul and Supply Depot are places and points of interest well worth seeing, even though they are off the beaten path of the Tulsa Tour.
The YMCA and the Courthouse make up two of the nine photos on the description of the Tulsa Tour -- two buildings most worthy of admiration and attention, according to the Chamber of Commerce in 1957. Funny how tastes change.
Still driving an Edsel?
I think the YMCA building looks fine, and would make a great place for affordable apartments. I like those large windows which could be replaced with something more modern. Also you could liven up the street with some retail space.
I think it looks drab and outdated, but could make for a fine place for apartments. TCC/OSU or even TU students, people just moving to town, even extended stay rentals, or just average Joe that works and wants to live downtown. The ground level could make for some retail space as that area has plenty of foot traffic. As apartments the area would even have round the clock potential as its' residence as well as Renaissance Uptown residence are right there.
The building itself is not in bad shape as I understand it, just dated. So be it. I'm sure a clever architect could find a way to hide some of the features that make it dated and spruce it up a bit. Enough to make it respectable anyway.
Downtown needs affordable housing also. Not as a "poor" housing euphemism, but in the $600-800 a month range. "Dated" is not a reason to tear it down, especially when we have so many empty lots downtown already.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.
The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.
From the center spread of Tulsa I. T., a 1957 tourist guide to "America's Most Beautiful City" (//%22http://www.batesline.com/archives/2007/01/tulsa-1957-take-1.html%22):
quote:
Tulsa county's new $4 million courthouse, the new inspiring YMCA, the fabulous Gilcrease Institute, Mohawk park and zoo, and the American Airlines Overhaul and Supply Depot are places and points of interest well worth seeing, even though they are off the beaten path of the Tulsa Tour.
The YMCA and the Courthouse make up two of the nine photos on the description of the Tulsa Tour -- two buildings most worthy of admiration and attention, according to the Chamber of Commerce in 1957. Funny how tastes change.
Stop living 50 years ago. That is 99 percent of what is wrong with this community. Our preponderance to living in the past. We should celebrate it, but not try to hold on to it.
Someone tinkle in your Lucky Charms, Hoss?
I don't particularly care for the buildings (although I don't hate them as much as some do, evidently). I was only remarking on how the architectural triumphs of one decade are ignored or despised in another.
Also, it tells me something of the attitudes of civic leaders at the time that they would spotlight two fairly new buildings and mostly ignore the buildings that we consider downtown's gems. (They did mention Boston Ave. Methodist, but only in the text -- no picture.) That in turn helps explain the approach to city planning that they took in the late '50s and '60s, and why so many attractive but older buildings of art deco and other styles were demolished without a thought.
That in turn should inform the way we think about preservation and planning from this point forward.
Living in the past is not holding Tulsa back. Not understanding, learning from, and coming to terms with our past is.
I know I am in the minority here, but I like the way the old city hall building and the Y look. They remind me of the eras in which they were built. We cant just like really old or really modern. It would be a shame to have a downtown that didnt have many examples from all time periods.
Just as Bates pointed out what was deemed worthy and beautiful at one time, you have to step back a bit and realize that we too will feel that way and will see some buildings as being ugly that in the future will be seen as being quite novel and beautiful once again. Given some more time those buildings will begin to stand out and definitely speak to the era in which they were built. Remind us of those times, the movies that were made, advertisements, television shows that had those types of buildings in them, the way people lived back then, the cars they had, the clothes they wore, furniture styles, etc. All things that go out of style, look ugly, then become novel and nostalgic.
The sad thing is, is that you will most likely miss them the most, a decade after they are gone. That not having those examples, in a downtown filled with all kinds of other styles, will in itself suddenly make you aware of what you dont have. Then you will start looking at the next group of "old nasty" buildings built in the 70s and 80s and go "Ugh that needs to go or be redone".
Heck, I have noticed how our whole downtown is starting to look very dated, stagnant and old. I remember a long time ago driving past some of the old rust belt cities when I lived in upstate NY and thinking, wow, you can tell when they had their heyday and then it all just stopped and their city died. Thats what our downtown is really starting to look like. The tallest skyscrapers we have that were built around the 80s make our city look like it is stuck in a dusty time warp compared to other cities that have newer architecture, signs of recent economic activity. Its not going to be long before those buildings start looking "ugly" themselves. (do this little experiment, drive past downtown on one of the highways and try to look at it with fresh eyes... its kinda sad folks. It looks like a city that died a long time ago. The new city hall and the new Arena are the only signs of life during the last couple decades.)
Each generation cant just tear down the previous ones buildings when they get to that "ugly" stage. Otherwise you will forever be gutting your history and architectural diversity. Its our kids who will look at those buildings and think,,, Wow, thats really neat. Hard as it is to believe now lol.
New windows and entrance would completly change the look of this building. Adaptive reuse is preferable to demolish and dump. It doesn't need to be torn down.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Each generation cant just tear down the previous ones buildings when they get to that "ugly" stage. Otherwise you will forever be gutting your history and architectural diversity.
Tulsa's history has been a series of tear downs. This can be seen time and time again in the Beryl Ford Collection and the old Sanborn maps.
For some reason I'm okay with City Hall demolition but tearing the Y seems very undesirable. I guess it's because City Hall seems so remote but they Y is a part of the Denver streetscape and another empty lot would only make downtown more barren.
I really think the IDL needs a demolition approval panel skewed toward preservation and adaptive reuse. Not that our bureaucracy works all the time, but such a procedure might have saved the Skelly Building. In the case of the Y, such a panel could at least insist that demolition plans be accompanied by development plans that replaced the building with a comparable structure and not a parking lot.
+1
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
For some reason I'm okay with City Hall demolition but tearing the Y seems very undesirable. I guess it's because City Hall seems so remote but they Y is a part of the Denver streetscape and another empty lot would only make downtown more barren.
I really think the IDL needs a demolition approval panel skewed toward preservation and adaptive reuse. Not that our bureaucracy works all the time, but such a procedure might have saved the Skelly Building. In the case of the Y, such a panel could at least insist that demolition plans be accompanied by development plans that replaced the building with a comparable structure and not a parking lot.
There was a demolition review component to the CORE Proposals (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/news/CORE_Proposals.pdf%22), but the Taylor administration, at the urging of DTU and a few downtown property owners, pulled the plug on the idea.
By the way, Floyd, I supported the CORE Proposals enthusiastically on my blog and in my column.
Thanks for the link. I think I got the idea from reading that a while back, but I couldn't remember where it came from. Were any reasons giving for rejecting the proposal?
quote:
5. DEMOLITION REVIEW
A demolition permit review process should be created to prevent the loss of buildings that may have historical or architectural significance, and to provide the time necessary to consider alternative uses
for the structure. This review process should consider the findings of the above-mentioned Survey, parking policies, comprehensive planning efforts, and incentive promotion. However, given the urgency of this issue and the finite number of historic structures in Downtown, the review process should be put into effect as soon as possible.
* A review panel designated by the Tulsa Preservation Commission should review applications for demolition of existing Downtown buildings, triggering a stay of demolition no longer than 120 days.
* To begin the review process, the demolition permit applicant will provide to the review panel the following information:
1. Necessity of proposed demolition
2. Economic value of the building from the owner's or developer's perspective
3. Engineer's or architect's report of structural condition of the building
4. Proposed use for the site after demolition, including economic value of new use
* The demolition review panel will determine and report to the Tulsa Preservation Commission the following information:
1. Historic and/or architectural significance, as determined in the downtown Survey
2. Effects of proposed demolition on surrounding urban fabric
3. Feasibility and opportunities for continued use or reuse of the structure
4. Potential incentives available for rehabilitation and reuse
* Based on panel's report, the Tulsa Preservation Commission would vote to recommend to the Building Inspector either approval or denial of the demolition permit. The Tulsa Preservation Commission's decision could be appealed to the Board of Adjustment.
Leon B. Senter (//%22http://www.tulsaarchitecture.com/architects/senter.shtml%22) was the architect for the YMCA building. He was involved with the design of many notable buildings in Tulsa, including:
- The Coliseum, east side Elgin between 5th & 6th Street (1928)
- Philcade, southeast corner 5th and Boston (1930)
- University of Tulsa Stadium (Skelly Stadium) (1930)
- Tulsa Fire Alarm Building, 8th and Madison (1931)
- Tulsa Municipal Airport Administration Building, northeast corner Sheridan and Apache (1932)
- Union Bus Depot, northeast corner 4th and Cincinnati (1935)
- Will Rogers High School, 3909 East 5th Place (1938)
- Service Pipe Line Building, northwest corner 6th and Cincinnati (1946)
- Booker T. Washington High School, 1631 East Woodrow Place (1950)
- Tulsa Municipal Theater (an interior remodel of and additions to Convention Hall -- the big yellow brick lobbies on the front of the Brady Theater were part of this project), northwest corner of Boulder and Brady (1953)
Senter was issued License #1 when the Oklahoma architectural licensing law went into effect around 1930.
Senter's renderings for YMCA building:
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/B3987.jpg)
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/B3988.jpg)
Photo source: Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society
Would be a shame if another use for that building isn't found.
Would be a sin if the building is replaced by anything that doesn't address the street and add to the urban fabric in the same manner (for a bad example, see what Trinity Episicopal did in replacing the Auto Hotel).
Would be a mortal sin if the building is replaced by parking.
The YMCA building, as well as the City Hall complex, look boring to many because that is how they were intended to look. Both are examples of International Modern architecture, which focused on honest, rigid building shape and form. You architecture buffs may recall that the whole International Modern movement was largely influenced by architect Mies van der Rohe, who coined the phrase "less is more."
Personally, I find the YMCA more aesthetically pleasing than the City Hall complex. If our society continues to place a value on historical allusionism, it is quite possible that both structures will be looked upon with great nostalgia in the coming decades. That being said, the whole concept behind International Modern architecture is the absence of the very things that tend to inspire artistic taste in general. So who knows? All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.
Strangely enough, the YMCA Building site was previously a surface parking lot.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D6307.jpg)
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/B9977.jpg)
Source: Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society
There's a "historical" precedent for surface parking at that location!
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.
Strangely enough, the YMCA Building site was previously a surface parking lot.
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/D6307.jpg)
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/B9977.jpg)
Source: Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society
There's a "historical" precedent for surface parking at that location!
That is interesting- great photos, by the way. I must say that despite generally wanting to preserve the history of 20th century America, there are many things I do not wish to preserve, such as: Jim Crow laws, smoking in airplanes, prohibition,
and surface parking lots in urban areas!
I drive by it every day and while I do not wish for surface parking in any way...it is much more attractive in a black and white photo.
I'm guessing the 50's era cars are adding to my attraction.
I will simply add that the YMCA building is the only bldg on that black. Raising it would leave a huge void.
Leon Senter also was architect for the Orpheum theatre in Okmulgee and one of the science buildings at OSU in Stillwater
I'm not sure what the plans are for the existing Y, but I have a feeling it will be sold and demolished. As a devoted downtown Y member since 1994, I know that the building is in desperate need for HVAC replacement. The windows are charming, but incredibly drafty. There doesn't seem to be any insulation in the building. And there have been some pretty big leaks...I'm assuming from the roof. (The YMCA kept deferring maintenance, b/c they knew they were going to build a new downtown Y some day...but instead they kept building new Y's in other locations.) I think that someone could gut the building, keep the cool, old stuff intact, and "adapt and reuse." But I doubt they will. They'll probably just tear it down "b/c it's cheaper."
Three hundredth verse, same as the first...
Mayo Building to be kept a close eye on by Tulsa's drug enforcement agencies.
"The apartments will be ready in January 2010. It will be called the Mayo 420 and those apartments will fill up quickly."
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0908/550271.html
Now that the BOK Center is open for business, there are more changes coming to downtown Tulsa.
This time, one of the old empty downtown buildings is being turned into a high-end apartment complex. The old Mayo Building at 5th and Main is already being remodeled. Local developers say people are ready to move back downtown again.
Between 21 and 27 million dollars is being used to renovate the old Mayo building into sixty-seven luxury apartments. It's great news for one of the current tenants of the building -- Billy's On The Square -- which has been downtown for 25 years and survived a lot of changes at 5th and Main.
"It's the heart of downtown," says Billy Bayouth. "When Bartlett Square was put here, there was a purpose behind that. And, it was because this is, in general, the heart of the city. Being near that is a plus in general."
Another plus is a new health club will be among future tenants. It's believed the downtown YMCA will move into the new building.
Emily Rohleder has lived here all her life. She's now a vice president of Wiggin Properties, which is helping restore the building. She says the rebirth of this part of downtown is just the beginning and that people will like living there.
"And, just to walk around a city within a city, and it's very nice to have that to where you can walk to whatever you're wanting to do. And with gas prices going to be even more so coming up."
The apartments will be ready in January 2010. It will be called the Mayo 420 and those apartments will fill up quickly.
There is also new green space, fountains and even a new park -- Centennial Park -- going in less than a block away from that new development. The park's official dedication is coming this November.
They need to update their website.
http://www.mayo420.com/
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
New windows and entrance would completly change the look of this building. Adaptive reuse is preferable to demolish and dump. It doesn't need to be torn down.
I agree, after seeing how they reworked the old Montgomery Ward building in Ft Worth. It has its place in Tulsa's history and would possibly make good offices or loft style apartments or considering its location to the new Arena, possibly a boutique hotel, where is the Coury company when you need them. They did a bang up job on the Colcord in OKC, this would fit into their portfolio nicely.
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom
I will simply add that the YMCA building is the only bldg on that black. Raising it would leave a huge void.
Maybe that void could be filled by a new hotel ?
quote:
Originally posted by bacjz00
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom
I will simply add that the YMCA building is the only bldg on that black. Raising it would leave a huge void.
Maybe that void could be filled by a new hotel ?
Just how many more properties can we continue to tear down and say that about? lol. I mean really, how many more spots for a potential hotel do we need? lol Its not as though there isnt any place where one could go. Heck we have enough places for a dozen new hotels.
I am not saying tear down the Y building, I am saying rehab the building into a boutique hotel. That can be done.
Could be. I would really like to see the Coney Island turned into a funky, retro/mod hotel. And keeping the name would only add to the fun/cool factor.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Could be. I would really like to see the Coney Island turned into a funky, retro/mod hotel. And keeping the name would only add to the fun/cool factor.
That'd be great. Right now that is one ugly-a** building.
2010?
It sure seems like all this new downtown housing is taking a very, very long time.
Are the First Street Lofts gonna be done soon? That seems like the only one of these projects that were started a couple years ago that's anywhere close to being ready for occupancy.
Looks like the new YMCA has opened... Has anyone checked it out?
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story/Renovated-multi-million-dollar-fitness-center/5xyHnApYm0-LVqeC3jJ_ZA.cspx
has there been any more info on possible uses of the now-former YMCA building or site?
I think it would make a good home for a school like Tulsa School of Arts & Sciences (TSAS). They currently lease office space near 51st & Yale and the YMCA building would be a good fit for them with its existing athletic facilities and its apartments turned into classrooms and offices. They would have room on the block for parking and/or future expansion.
I went by the new YMCA yesterday and it looks nice and modern. It was very busy with a bunch of people working out and in line to sign up. One of my co-workers got a membership and likes it. It is nice to see downtown as it continues to slowly come back to life.
The new YMCA is very nice, sauna and whirlpool in the basement, plus exercise equipment on the first and second floors. Lots of TVs everywhere on the walls and on the exercise equipment. Very friendly employees, too.
I'm a little disappointed in their hours. Worse than they were at the old location. They close at 8pm M-F and 2pm Saturday, and they're not open Sundays. Hopefully they'll adjust their hours. If you're gonna be closed Sunday, don't close so early on Saturday.