I took my first trip up there today. Why is it so run down? And I don't mean poor, I mean it looks neglected by the City.
What's the deal?
Man, you're asking a novel's worth with that question. Start with infrastructure. My brother is a AT&T lineman. When they are called on a service call, they find often find that all the service to the home is missing. Stolen for scrap. No meters, no lines, nothing.
He has to deal with irate homeowners who don't mind brandishing a weapon and cursing him while he tries to avoid their unrestrained pit bulls. My other brother worked for another public utility for years all over north Tulsa and relays the same experiences.
A cop once told me East Tulsa is worse but the Northside gets the rep. Of course North Tulsa is like any other area of town with good people who have integrity and pride in ownership mixed in with morons who prey on the rest of us so it isn't right to generalize about them. But they suffer from low income, poor education and predatory drugs more than the rest of the city.
Why? Start your novel.
I'd like to see some community policing. This helps pull the neighborhood together. Enforced Code enforcement on those that can afford it and just neglect property because they can get away with it.
I grew up in North Tulsa, went to Alcott, Gilcrese and McLain. (was a 7th grader when Gilcrase opened)
It was a nice area to live in the 50's and up to the late 60's. I'd get up at 3:30am in the morning and go throw my Tulsa World Paper route be home by 5:30am and sleep until 7am and get uo and go to school. Never worried about having an problems. It was a good working class neighborhood.
We had creeks and field to explore. Little League Baseball to play. Kick the Can to Play at night and pigeon's and chickens to raise.
I'd ride my Honda 90 motorcycle all over North Tulsa and feel as safe I would today in Owasso or Jenks.
I remember going to Teen Town Dances on Friday Nights at the Chamberlin Recreation Center with Live Bands. Never was there any trouble.
The last song was always a slow dance, usually "The House of the Rising Sun". You would ask that special girl you had your eye on all night to dance. Then you would steal a kiss from her waiting outside for her parents to pick her up.
Yes North Tulsa holds a lot of good memories for me. Too bad kids growing up there now will not look back 40 years from now with the same good memories I look back on now from growing up in North Tulsa.
Unreliable, you brought up sweet memories to me. I grew up around 4th place and Lewis and had the exact same experiences. Kendall, Wilson, Central, Whittier Square, paper routes, bikes and teen parties. Every generation has their sacred memories. They will have theirs too.
Community policing, code enforcement and rebuilding that self esteem you describe are key to North Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Unreliable, you brought up sweet memories to me. I grew up around 4th place and Lewis and had the exact same experiences. Kendall, Wilson, Central, Whittier Square, paper routes, bikes and teen parties. Every generation has their sacred memories. They will have theirs too.
Community policing, code enforcement and rebuilding that self esteem you describe are key to North Tulsa.
North Tulsa's problems historically have been:
1) 1921 Race Riot wiped out the Greenwood Business District. Burned hundreds of businesses to the ground.
Insurance companies did not pay off on property insurance claims because of a civil insurrection/riot exclusion in their policies.
Hence, there was NO CAPITAL available for the business people to recover their storefronts.
2) There is a preponderance of poor people who rent, lacking income or capital to own their houses.
Renters often show little pride in maintaining their rented accomodations.
3) There has been a lot of publically-owned housing in North Tulsa.
This public policy concentrated poor, uneducated people with low self esteem, poor job skills, poor self-control, and their associated escape from a grim present reality through drugs, crime, and out-of-wedlock births.
4) Lenders and real estate companies "RED-LINED" north Tulsa for decades, i.e. NO LOANS TO A RED-LINED AREA.
Gilcrease Hills Subdivision was the first major middle-class housing development in decades for north Tulsa, and that was done by an out-of-state development company back decades ago.
Well put FB. Add in the unhealthy levels of racism that were planted here by the KKK and nurtured carefully for 80 years.
When I looked closely at the geographic location of violent crimes in the last decade that the World published last week it seemed obvious that it was clustered around the high density apartments along the expressways and far North Tulsa. Home ownership is a powerful medicine for that.
When you say racism has been carefully nurtured here for 80 years, is that what accounts for the hostility towards Hispanics?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Well put FB. Add in the unhealthy levels of racism that were planted here by the KKK and nurtured carefully for 80 years.
When I looked closely at the geographic location of violent crimes in the last decade that the World published last week it seemed obvious that it was clustered around the high density apartments along the expressways and far North Tulsa. Home ownership is a powerful medicine for that.
Obviously, local racism was bubbling under the surface just waiting to erupt, as it so terribly did in 1921.
I've heard old timers tell that when the train from St. Louis crossed the border into Oklahoma, that the train conductor moved all African-Americans into the Jim Crow car, i.e. SEGREGATED.
Astounding by today's standards.
The Washington Post newspaper had an interesting, lengthy news analysis this summer on how crime followed the relocation of tenants after public housing demolitions occured.
Crime simply moved to apartment complexes in other parts of the D.C. area that accepted Section 8 rent subsidy payments.
Thereafter, crime was no longer concentrated around the public housing projects.
Rather, crime DIFFUSED to where these low-income families relocated, creating numerous hot-pockets through their Metro area.
I haven't bothered to dig out the link, but I'm sure it is readily locatable in their archives for those interested.
Sorry for loafing this time.
quote:
Originally posted by Rex
When you say racism has been carefully nurtured here for 80 years, is that what accounts for the hostility towards Hispanics?
Although I believe the Hispanic hostility is more economically motivated than racial, the lines tend to blur. Much of the race riot had as an undertone jealousies over the economic successes of the blacks. The less they needed to come south across the tracks to work, buy, sell and prosper, the more a threat to white business they were. Tulsans were more tolerant when the blacks were employed as their domestics. Note that even my modest home built in 1919 has servants quarters and a button in the dining room floor to summon the maid. We're not too far removed from that period, my father was a child during the riots. The children and grandchildren of the rioters are still living here. They nurtured those attitudes through low per pupil expenditures north of Admiral and no representation in city government for decades after the riot. We were forced into bussing in the sixties and eventually magnet schools by 1972. We were forced into a city charter change to give northside a political voice in the 80's. Tulsa's kind of slow on addressing that kind of stuff.[;)]
However, as a man who was once married into a mixed hispanic family here in Tulsa I can say that I did not see much animosity towards that family in the late sixties to early seventies. Silly, racial toned remarks of course(all those Mexicans like bright colors...)but no real prejudice. But I think the new Klan is more into pure white and Christian these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Rex
When you say racism has been carefully nurtured here for 80 years, is that what accounts for the hostility towards Hispanics?
I would say the incident of an illegal immigrant killing a Tulsa citizen when he ran a red light 2 or 3 years ago accounts for much of the hostility towards the illegals. Legal hispanics who drive with a license and pay their taxes I have no problem with.
I've spent a lot of time up there over the years. It's not all bad -- you go far enough north and you're in Sperry. You go east and you are at the airport/ American Airlines stuff. You go west and you're in Osage County. In the middle of the north side, there are actually some really nice homes and, in recent years, real live infill.
But there are also some totally sketchy parts and crime, prostitution, drugs all out in the open.
I'm not even sure the infrastructure is all that bad throughout the area. There are parts that are just fine. Other parts look like Gaza.
The issue is perception. The news shows run so much negative stuff. They try to find the aunt with no teeth to talk into the camera, etc.
Overall, I think it's just different. I'll ride my bike along the trail starting at OSU-Tulsa. I see more people out walking around their neighborhood and more kids playing than I do at 31st and Lewis or 91st and Memorial. Some of the genuinely friendliest, most neighborhood conscious people I've met are in north Tulsa.
I do think north Tulsa has been on the raw end of some deals. I never really evaluate the race riot into the narrative, though I think it's a tragedy, because I place it before where I think Tulsa really took off (which I generally associate with the 1940's and 50's and American Airlines, etc, moving to town). It's just too simplistic to say that's why parts of north Tulsa are jacked up. As another poster said, a lot of that area thrived through the 60's. I'm not saying the race riot didn't destroy families or that it wasn't genocide; I'm just saying it's not really the root cause of what's wrong up there, 87 years later.
I question a lot of the leadership from that area. A lot of the best kids do everything they can to get out and we're left with some -- not all -- people with limited perspective. My understanding is that if you want to invest up there, there are a lot of loopholes and people you have to go through (true everywhere, but unusually so up there, given the need for retail, etc.). And then, weird or bad things happen; they couldn't keep Albertson's open.
Really, the area is a sociologist's treasure trove. The story is so complicated -- you have some of the worst neighborhoods and then also Gilcrease, TCC northeast, and Million Dollar Elm. A lot of it has to do with poor schools (though Emerson, Carver, and Booker T are very good schools). A lot of it is the lack of investment in the last 30 or 40 years, other than fast food. And a lot of it is just perception.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
I've spent a lot of time up there over the years. It's not all bad -- you go far enough north and you're in Sperry. You go east and you are at the airport/ American Airlines stuff. You go west and you're in Osage County. In the middle of the north side, there are actually some really nice homes and, in recent years, real live infill.
But there are also some totally sketchy parts and crime, prostitution, drugs all out in the open.
I'm not even sure the infrastructure is all that bad throughout the area. There are parts that are just fine. Other parts look like Gaza.
The issue is perception. The news shows run so much negative stuff. They try to find the aunt with no teeth to talk into the camera, etc.
Overall, I think it's just different. I'll ride my bike along the trail starting at OSU-Tulsa. I see more people out walking around their neighborhood and more kids playing than I do at 31st and Lewis or 91st and Memorial. Some of the genuinely friendliest, most neighborhood conscious people I've met are in north Tulsa.
I do think north Tulsa has been on the raw end of some deals. I never really evaluate the race riot into the narrative, though I think it's a tragedy, because I place it before where I think Tulsa really took off (which I generally associate with the 1940's and 50's and American Airlines, etc, moving to town). It's just too simplistic to say that's why parts of north Tulsa are jacked up. As another poster said, a lot of that area thrived through the 60's. I'm not saying the race riot didn't destroy families or that it wasn't genocide; I'm just saying it's not really the root cause of what's wrong up there, 87 years later.
I question a lot of the leadership from that area. A lot of the best kids do everything they can to get out and we're left with some -- not all -- people with limited perspective. My understanding is that if you want to invest up there, there are a lot of loopholes and people you have to go through (true everywhere, but unusually so up there, given the need for retail, etc.). And then, weird or bad things happen; they couldn't keep Albertson's open.
Really, the area is a sociologist's treasure trove. The story is so complicated -- you have some of the worst neighborhoods and then also Gilcrease, TCC northeast, and Million Dollar Elm. A lot of it has to do with poor schools (though Emerson, Carver, and Booker T are very good schools). A lot of it is the lack of investment in the last 30 or 40 years, other than fast food. And a lot of it is just perception.
Where, in your opinion, are the worst neighborhoods in North Tulsa? From my limited experience (I grew up on the southside around 71st and Yale) I would say neighborhoods north of 244 along Peoria and Lewis but, like you said, that is more perception.
Areas around Pine and Lewis are pretty sketchy. Get back in there and some of the homes are a little off kilter and, well sketchy.
To be fair there are run down areas all over town. I'm always seeing wonderful houses that have been neglected even in popular areas like 15th Street and Peoria. Tulsa is a little worn around the edges in general.
Northwest Tulsa was built as a 1st Class White neighborhood. My great aunt lived in the Reservoir Hill flats with her executive husband back in the early 60s. Shortly after that White flight (caucasians moving to the White suburbs when Blacks bought into their neighborhoods) got started in earnest.
There are also areas that were built for low income people on the northside. Drive off of Lewis between Pine and Admiral and you find an occasional tiny shanty (1 room house).
The Greenwood Archer area was famous for it's Black owned businesses until White Tulsans burned it out. I can remember going with our housekeeper to her doctor in the Greenwood area. The blocks that I remember have since been demolished.
Overall the zoning in North Tulsa reflects a time when Tulsa had better zoning as a result of the City Beautiful movement. I think the lots and overall configuration of streets and shops is superior to anything elsewhere in the city. Many northside lots tend to be larger.
I've spent most of my adult life in international cities and North Tulsa has a great mix of people, including many Latinos. I enjoy the ethnic diversity. I live in North Tulsa now.
There has been a long standing conflict between the Black and Latino communities. My sense is that Blacks don't enjoy losing their "only minority" status.
Of course, Tulsa is chocked full of poor Whites and we don't even acknowledge that they exist.
The other day someone described Northwest Tulsa as "hip." And I would have to agree. We passed on a house in Saddleback near 41st and Yale and decided to purchase in North Tulsa. I like to buy low and hopefully one day sell high. Two homes sold in my neighborhood last year, one at $289,000 and the other $305,000. Meanwhile, I wouldn't live anywhere else in Tulsa.
It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]
Columbus, Ohio
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]
Columbus, Ohio
A reference to former Mayor Dick Crawford?
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
[quote
Columbus, Ohio
A reference to former Mayor Dick Crawford?
I was reminding him he lives in Ohio.
Why is South Tulsa so empty in so many ways?
What happens when you find out that new and improved isn't. Yards that never have any people in them. A sidewalk here and there with no one walking. Social intercourse reduced to a glance between cars at smokey intersections. Neighborhoods full of nearly identical houses with identical incomes and ethnicities. What happens when you find out that your ticky tacky neighborhood is sucking the life out of your city. No color. No spice. Almost no life. Just a search for something better and a flight from fear.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Where, in your opinion, are the worst neighborhoods in North Tulsa? From my limited experience (I grew up on the southside around 71st and Yale) I would say neighborhoods north of 244 along Peoria and Lewis but, like you said, that is more perception.
This is a good idea.
On a similar thread, what are the worst parts of Tulsa south of Admiral? I'll start by nominating the 61st and S Peoria area.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
It's bad in north "T" Towne. Keep out of there. Crime runs rampant. That is why it's in such bad shape. If you leave your house vacant more than a day -such as going on a trip or vacation, you'll return and find it striped of copper pipe & wires and everything else gone.. In Atlanta GA this sort of stuff has got so bad that they now have a police unit that patrols areas of empty homes. The sad part is they do thousands of dollars of damage to get $40.00 worth of copper pipe and wire. When and if they get caught they don't get much punishment, It's not treated as a serious crime. This kind of stuff is going on in North Tulsa.[xx(]
Columbus, Ohio
Oh yeah, we have it bad too. The city passed new laws to clamp dowm on scrap dealers who buy stolen metals. This is a problem in just about every major city. Too many empty houses. It's bad here, they tear out the drywall and take the wires and pipes.[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
To be fair there are run down areas all over town. I'm always seeing wonderful houses that have been neglected even in popular areas like 15th Street and Peoria. Tulsa is a little worn around the edges in general.
Northwest Tulsa was built as a 1st Class White neighborhood. My great aunt lived in the Reservoir Hill flats with her executive husband back in the early 60s. Shortly after that White flight (caucasians moving to the White suburbs when Blacks bought into their neighborhoods) got started in earnest.
There are also areas that were built for low income people on the northside. Drive off of Lewis between Pine and Admiral and you find an occasional tiny shanty (1 room house).
The Greenwood Archer area was famous for it's Black owned businesses until White Tulsans burned it out. I can remember going with our housekeeper to her doctor in the Greenwood area. The blocks that I remember have since been demolished.
You make several good points about the history of North Tulsa. Reservoir Hill was and still is a neighborhood of impressive homes with some of the best views in the city. People are too quick to dismiss what north Tulsa has to offer. The homes in Brady Heights are and the area cleared for OSU expansion were of the same style and and construction quality that you'll find in historic North Maple Ridge or Swan Lake. The houses in Sequoyah neighborhood are much like the houses in White City or Florence Park.
The far north neighborhoods -- Suburban Acres and surrounding areas -- were built as white working-class subdivisions in the '40s and '50s. According to census stats, as late as 1960, the African-American population was mainly segregated to the area between the Frisco tracks on the south, Detroit & Cincinnati on the west, the Santa Fe tracks on the southeast, and Apache on the north.
In 1960, there were a grand total of 15 black residents in the City of Tulsa north of 36th Street North (Census Tracts 57, 79, and 80), out of a total population of 14,924. 242 residents were classified as of "other races." That's 98.37% white.
What follows is my speculation only, but I think it fits the facts:
* In the '60s, as white families in the far north subdivisions began to grow out of their starter homes, they were drawn to newer development and bigger homes on the southern and eastern edges of town -- e.g. the multitude of Park Plaza subdivisions. The completion of Skelly Drive in the late '50s helped push new development in that direction.
* Bird Creek and its flood-prone tributaries hindered development north of Apache, and until Gilcrease Hills in the late '60s, the Kennedy land in Osage County was unavailable for development.
* In the mid '60s, Tulsa joined the urban renewal craze, using Federal funds to wipe out the heart of the Greenwood district. The expressway cut through the middle of the commercial district and urban renewal took out the rest. The intent of the Model Cities program was to rebuild it as a better community, but it didn't quite happen that way.
* The African-American families displaced by urban renewal had to go somewhere, and the real estate community directed them toward the increasingly less fashionable far north neighborhoods.
* The completion of I-244 right around 1970 cemented the popular conception of everything to the north of it as "the black part of town." Whites from south of 244 avoided going north, except to drive through on the way to the zoo or the airport.
One small correction to your paragraph about the Greenwood & Archer area. It was famous for its black-owned businesses even after the whites burned it out. The residents of Greenwood rebuilt after 1921, and from Sanborn maps and photographs it appears that reborn Greenwood was more solidly built, substantial, and prosperous than what had been destroyed in 1921.
It was the post-'21 Greenwood that was immortalized in the song "Take Me Back to Tulsa" and in the name of the GAP Band. It was the post-'21, reborn Greenwood that you visited with your housekeeper. (I'm assuming you're not 90 years old. [:)])
The post-'21, reborn Greenwood wasn't firebombed by an angry white mob; it was bulldozed under government contract as part of expressway construction and a well-intentioned revitalization program. (Some would argue about "well-intentioned," but at least some of the people involved in the Model Cities program were well-meaning.)
Michael, I never cease to be amazed by your encyclopedic mind for Tulsa history and your analysis.
Good stuff.
Just my take on the issue that coincides with Micheals info is that in the mid 70's two things happened that helped in the shift yo the southeast part of town, and they both happened close to the same time. Two major developments were the Ford Glass Plant, and Woodland Hills Mall. In the early 70's 61st and Memorial were kind of the outskirts of Tulsa. Memorial was two lane I think from there all the way south to Leonard. My parents bought their first new car from Ramsey Chevrolet in Bixby in 1969, and a brother of mine bought a car from them in 1974, and I can remember the drive out there was out in the sticks once you passed 61st. Also at that time they were starting construction of The Falls apartment complex.
Like I said just my thoughts.
In August 1971, Memorial was 2 lanes south of the railroad tracks at 41st Street. I remember a traffic light at either 71st or 81st. There was a gas station at 71st and another at 91st (I think, Sam's DX). There wasn't much else all the way to about 131st. Then not much until you crossed the river into the main part of Bixby.
Mingo Valley Expy only went as far south as 21st Street.
Hey Michael, Thanks for the detail and I stand corrected re Archer and Greenwood. I feel like the stadium is about to finish off what Urban Renewal didn't. Before "north of 244" the axim was "north of Archer." Let me ask you are there still neighborhoods of working class Whites in far North Tulsa? Is there anything else to tell about Suburban Acres?
Bixby! Well, I can remember riding in the back of my sister's Corvair going through the country on the way to Sparkey's graveyard in Jenks. Way out in the sticks. It was better than a scary movie.
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
Just my take on the issue that coincides with Micheals info is that in the mid 70's two things happened that helped in the shift yo the southeast part of town, and they both happened close to the same time. Two major developments were the Ford Glass Plant, and Woodland Hills Mall. In the early 70's 61st and Memorial were kind of the outskirts of Tulsa. Memorial was two lane I think from there all the way south to Leonard. My parents bought their first new car from Ramsey Chevrolet in Bixby in 1969, and a brother of mine bought a car from them in 1974, and I can remember the drive out there was out in the sticks once you passed 61st. Also at that time they were starting construction of The Falls apartment complex.
Like I said just my thoughts.
Good points both.
"It's like havin' a friend at the factory,
Havin' a friend at the factory!
Ramsey Chevrolet is Little Detroit!"
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey Michael, Thanks for the detail and I stand corrected re Archer and Greenwood. I feel like the stadium is about to finish off what Urban Renewal didn't. Before "north of 244" the axim was "north of Archer." Let me ask you are there still neighborhoods of working class Whites in far North Tulsa? Is there anything else to tell about Suburban Acres?
Bixby! Well, I can remember riding in the back of my sister's Corvair going through the country on the way to Sparkey's graveyard in Jenks. Way out in the sticks. It was better than a scary movie.
The ballpark itself thankfully won't require any demolition other than one little windowless cinderblock building. The remaining block of 1922 buildings on Greenwood itself will remain. If anything, the proximity of the ballpark might make it feasible to open restaurants and clubs in the 100 block of N. Greenwood.
Much of the ballpark land was railroad right of way, as it was where the Sand Springs and MK&T lines crossed. The Sanborn maps show a couple of factories neared to Elgin. (I hope they don't tear down the old hotel which is now a U-Haul storage center. That rotating U-Haul truck could be like Tulsa's version of the big CITGO sign behind Fenway Park.)
Suburban Acres shopping center was around in 1957 -- it had a page in a "Tulsarama" shopping supplement from June of that year. I've got some images from that supplement that I need to find and upload.
The answer to your question about white working-class neighborhoods in far north Tulsa appears to be not until you get to Turley, according to this map of Tulsa County 2000 Census demographic data by census tract (//%22http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ThematicMapFramesetServlet?_bm=y&-tree_id=400&-_MapEvent=zoom&-context=tm&-errMsg=&-_useSS=N&-states=&-_dBy=140&-redoLog=false&-_zoomLevel=5&-street=&-tm_name=DEC_2000_PL_U_M00083&-tm_config=%7Cb=50%7Cl=en%7Ct=400%7Czf=0.0%7Cms=thm_def%7Cdw=0.12435298147254895%7Cdh=0.07579002639381936%7Cdt=gov.census.aff.domain.map.EnglishMapExtent%7Cif=gif%7Ccx=-95.93673059646402%7Ccy=36.19588415140783%7Czl=4%7Cpz=4%7Cbo=%7Cbl=%7Cft=350:349:335:389:388:332:331%7Cfl=403:381:204:380:369:379:368%7Cg=05000US40143%7Cds=DEC_2000_PL_U%7Csb=50%7Ctud=false%7Cdb=140%7Cmn=0.2%7Cmx=94.3%7Ccc=1%7Ccm=1%7Ccn=5%7Ccb=%7Cum=Percent%7Cpr=1%7Cth=DEC_2000_PL_U_M00083%7Csf=N%7Csg=&-PANEL_ID=tm_result&-_pageY=&-_lang=en&-_pageX=&-geo_id=05000US40143&-CONTEXT=tm&-_mapY=&-city=&-_mapX=&-_latitude=&-format=&-_pan=&-ds_name=DEC_2000_PL_U&-zip=74103&-_longitude=&-_changeMap=Identify#?196,181%22). There's also an isolated subdivision off of Delaware north of 41st St. N., near the site of Lakeview Amusement Park, which seems to be evenly divided, based on the 2000 data (//%22http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ThematicMapFramesetServlet?_bm=y&-tree_id=400&-_MapEvent=&-context=tm&-errMsg=&-_useSS=N&-states=&-_dBy=100&-redoLog=false&-_zoomLevel=&-street=&-tm_name=DEC_2000_PL_U_M00265&-ds_label=Census%202000%20Redistricting%20Data%20%20Public%20Law%2094-171%20%20Summary%20File&-tm_config=%7Cb=50%7Cl=en%7Ct=400%7Czf=0.0%7Cms=thm_def%7Cdw=0.04974119258901957%7Cdh=0.029876648085679514%7Cdt=gov.census.aff.domain.map.EnglishMapExtent%7Cif=gif%7Ccx=-95.960273%7Ccy=36.214842%7Czl=3%7Cpz=3%7Cbo=%7Cbl=%7Cft=350:349:335:389:388:332:331%7Cfl=403:381:204:380:369:379:368%7Cg=14000US40143008001%7Cds=DEC_2000_PL_U%7Csb=50%7Ctud=false%7Cdb=100%7Cmn=10%7Cmx=82.4%7Ccc=1%7Ccm=1%7Ccn=5%7Ccb=%7Cum=Percent%7Cpr=1%7Cth=DEC_2000_PL_U_M00265%7Csf=N%7Csg=&-PANEL_ID=tm_result&-_pageY=552&-_lang=en&-_pageX=595&-geo_id=14000US40143008001&-CONTEXT=tm&-_mapY=172&-city=&-_mapX=434&-_latitude=&-format=&-_pan=&-ds_name=DEC_2000_PL_U&-zip=74103&-_longitude=&-_changeMap=ZoomIn%22).
(Off topic Google Street View funny: I think this may be one of the ice storm debris trucks. (//%22http://maps.google.com/maps?q=N+Delaware+Ave+%26+East+41st+St+N,+Tulsa,+Tulsa,+Oklahoma+74110,+United+States&ie=UTF8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hl=en&cd=2&geocode=0,36.213460,-95.949330&sll=36.10427,-95.94915&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&ll=36.216406,-95.945127&spn=0.011357,0.02738&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.213376,-95.950819&panoid=59qJrgoN_In7yg0xbcB96w&cbp=1,35.74322529399774,,0,-2.383577056037099%22))
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
I hope they don't tear down the old hotel which is now a U-Haul storage center...
The building has characteristics of Art Deco. I'd like to see it preserved.
Hutcherson YMCA was just built.
Go in there and look around. Note the broken stuff and the holes in the walls and all the repairs done.
It's only been open a few months and it looks like it's been there for years on the inside.
They don't take care of anything. You can't do something good for the community and have them appreciate it.Until they find a sense of pride and take their neighborhoods back from the druggies, criminals and thugs - nothing will change.
What is happening now has nothing to do with 1921 - it has everything to do with too many people living on welfare instead of having the pride that comes with being able to take care of yourself.
They expect everyone else to solve their problems with no effort on their part. It just don't work that way.
Sangria, it really depends on the individual.
But I do believe there is generally less respect for property across all ethnicities. It takes a village but we don't have one anymore, anywhere.
Here's an aside, and a look back, that sort of relates. Did you know that Africans were the most prized slaves because they were the best workers?
I doubt if the same could be said about my people way, way back when they were slaves to Rome.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
Hutcherson YMCA was just built.
Go in there and look around. Note the broken stuff and the holes in the walls and all the repairs done.
It's only been open a few months and it looks like it's been there for years on the inside.
They don't take care of anything. You can't do something good for the community and have them appreciate it.Until they find a sense of pride and take their neighborhoods back from the druggies, criminals and thugs - nothing will change.
What is happening now has nothing to do with 1921 - it has everything to do with too many people living on welfare instead of having the pride that comes with being able to take care of yourself.
They expect everyone else to solve their problems with no effort on their part. It just don't work that way.
You sure use the word "they" a lot. I wonder if you know any of "them?"
quote:
Originally posted by booWorld
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
I hope they don't tear down the old hotel which is now a U-Haul storage center...
The building has characteristics of Art Deco. I'd like to see it preserved.
I agree! This is a beautiful old building...unexpected, gorgous architectural detail on a building with a truck rotating overhead!
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Hey Michael, Thanks for the detail and I stand corrected re Archer and Greenwood. I feel like the stadium is about to finish off what Urban Renewal didn't. Before "north of 244" the axim was "north of Archer." Let me ask you are there still neighborhoods of working class Whites in far North Tulsa? Is there anything else to tell about Suburban Acres?
Bixby! Well, I can remember riding in the back of my sister's Corvair going through the country on the way to Sparkey's graveyard in Jenks. Way out in the sticks. It was better than a scary movie.
I lived 3 blocks from Suburban Acres. From the east end going west. There was an Oklahoma Tire and Supply Store (Otasco), a CR Anthony's a laundry mat, Phelp's IGA Grocery Store, Dr. Fred LeMaster's doctor's office. Ben Franklin 5&Dime store and I want to say Crown Drug Store that had a soda bar like at Steve's Sundry where you could get a Cherry Coke.
Sorry to drag this back from the past but Michael Bates' remarks ealier in this thread were truly enlightening. And then Unreliablesource piped up about Suburban Acres. I wish I knew more about Suburban Acres.
Hey, Unreliablesource,
I have questions for you. Now from one unreliablesource to another I would like to ask you what it was like growing up in Suburban Acres?
How old are you? What ethnicity are you?
What highschool did you guys go to? Did kids from your neighborhood hang out in Brookside or later Memorial?
Were you greasers or soces? (Sorry, can't spell Soces?!?)
Where did everyone go when they moved? Or did they?
Steve, can tell us exactly where they came from but didn't those wheatstraw high water britches all the guys wore, come from Anthony's.
What kind of houses were in Suburban Acres? Flat top houses? Ranch houses?
We are from the same town but strangers.
Tell me about the old hood, it is truly fascinating to me.
I grew up in the Hale district in those flat top houses off of Yale near 21st.
Suburban Acres Library is at 2010 E 48th St North. Here is a link from Lost Tulsa (//%22http://www.losttulsa.com/2005/06/northland-shopping-center-36th-st.html%22) that is about the Northland Shopping Center, and has comments about the area after the ino on the shopping center. I can remember as a kid my mom and I would meet up with my aunt, her sister, at Northland for lunch and then go up to Skiatook to visit at her house. My aunt worked at the Safeway that was at Edison and Denver. Suburban Acres is zip codes 74106, 74110, and 74126 going south to north.