I believe the City Council will vote on bringing the Drillers downtown on Tuesday, 7/10. They will need to approve the "stadium improvment district" which will replace/expand the current "downtown improvement district."
If you support keeping the Drillers in Tulsa...and you want to bring a kick a_s venue downtown, please contact your city councilor and remind them to vote YES!
I don't know if there's any doubt this will pass, but I certainly hope that Tulsans will support this fantastic opportunity!
Downtown property owners who are facing an increase in the improvement district costs need to remember that this will contribute to revitalization of ALL of downtown. The more people who get exposed to downtown, the more people will discover the cool stuff going on. Which, in turn, will create more opportunities and bring more businesses (and, yes, people who want to office and live downtown) to the IDL.
Don't be shortsighted and trip over mouseturds, Tulsa! Let's do this thing!
To contact your city councilor, just email: distX@tulsacouncil.org (enter your district number instead of the "x.")
Also, the "Downtown Improvement District" is new and would replace the existing improvement district downtown currently.
Infer what you wish.
My Councilor said streets would be his first and top priority. I'll be watching this vote to see if that was just empty campaign rhetoric.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
My Councilor said streets would be his first and top priority. I'll be watching this vote to see if that was just empty campaign rhetoric.
Are you implying that the council cannot do anything until a streets package is available and voted upon? If so, that is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
If so, that is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard.
And that
isn't in keeping with Inteller how?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
My Councilor said streets would be his first and top priority. I'll be watching this vote to see if that was just empty campaign rhetoric.
He can't vote yes on two things this year?
The funding sources are completely different. Votes on one issue have nothing to do with the other. Now if you want to carry out the improvement district concept to the masses for street widening/repair funding, just make sure inteller's house is in the South Tulsa improvement district.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
My Councilor said streets would be his first and top priority. I'll be watching this vote to see if that was just empty campaign rhetoric.
Isnt there already a process in place to have a vote at a certain time? Arent there only certain times you can have a vote and an amount of time before the vote in which things have to be approved, go through the process, follow the rules, etc.? Whats your councilor supposed to be doing between now and when the next step and the vote happens? Only doing...what? with the streets issue? And between each step he cant take care of a single other thing that comes up? Goodness.
Looks like the Council's not ready to rubber stamp this after Da Mare's Great Plains stunt, at least not this Thursday night. Da Mare couldn't provide any written documentation to back up the promises being made in regards to the stadium plan at the UED committee meeting this morning. The Councilors are wise to request this, considering Da Mare wants to create a brand new Trust to hold authority over the Ballpark.
It's still on the council agenda. As is another shopping center near inteller.
Does this make sense to anyone?
http://krmg.com/localnews/2008/07/greenwood-ballpark-concerns.html
The "north Tulsa leaders" are concerned that the ballpark will steal the thunder of the Greenwood district. Essentially making the Greenwood a "footnote" in the area. What is it now?
How many people here have been to any store in that little strip that is left of Greenwood? I've driven by it, I think it looks neat. But have never been given a reason to stop. It IS a footnote. Hell, it's a footnote of a footnote, a non-entity for most people. This ballpark could raise it to the level of footnote, bring some life to the area.
Also, how low are your taxes when an increase of 1 penny per Sq Foot raises your tax rate 800%?
I don't get it.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
It's still on the council agenda. As is another shopping center near inteller.
I hope it is a series of super mega big box stores.
I bet I could hear his head explode all the way from my office downtown.
Some people downtown are only paying 0.5%
Some people aren't happy with Ruben Gant but no-one else is developing greenwood and nothing will boost greenwood development like the ballpark will.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Does this make sense to anyone?
http://krmg.com/localnews/2008/07/greenwood-ballpark-concerns.html
The "north Tulsa leaders" are concerned that the ballpark will steal the thunder of the Greenwood district. Essentially making the Greenwood a "footnote" in the area. What is it now?
How many people here have been to any store in that little strip that is left of Greenwood? I've driven by it, I think it looks neat. But have never been given a reason to stop. It IS a footnote. Hell, it's a footnote of a footnote, a non-entity for most people. This ballpark could raise it to the level of footnote, bring some life to the area.
Also, how low are your taxes when an increase of 1 penny per Sq Foot raises your tax rate 800%?
I don't get it.
Do folks up north consider making a stink out of a non-issue to be leadership?
You are totally right that the area is a footnote or a footnote of a footnote. It's not bad, there just ain't a damn thing there most nights. And they are building a park for John Hope Franklin, right?
I really like Judy, but this is silly.
They can't build the John Hope Franklin memorial because they don't have enough money and apparently haven't had enough for some time now.
The Mayor and Stan Lybarger, in the Council meeting yesterday, committed to personally raising the remaining $750k to get the memorial done.
By looking at the Oklahoma Eagle building, I am guessing it is around 3,000 square feet in size.
That means that the new assessment for his business is going to be around $200 a year. If he says it is going up 800 percent, then he must be paying $25 a year now.
This is property that is going to be less than two hundred yards from the entrance to the ballpark. He will be able to make that extra tax back in charging for parking on his lot in one game or two.
So what is the deal? Is he such an idiot that he can't do the math? His property is going to skyrocket in value and he is going to ***** about an extra fifty cents a day in assessment taxes?
I call B.S.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Does this make sense to anyone?
http://krmg.com/localnews/2008/07/greenwood-ballpark-concerns.html
The "north Tulsa leaders" are concerned that the ballpark will steal the thunder of the Greenwood district. Essentially making the Greenwood a "footnote" in the area. What is it now?
How many people here have been to any store in that little strip that is left of Greenwood? I've driven by it, I think it looks neat. But have never been given a reason to stop. It IS a footnote. Hell, it's a footnote of a footnote, a non-entity for most people. This ballpark could raise it to the level of footnote, bring some life to the area.
Also, how low are your taxes when an increase of 1 penny per Sq Foot raises your tax rate 800%?
I don't get it.
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Greenwood unfortunately has been in a downward spiral for quite some time. I think with the right leadership it could be a nice destination area for Tulsa, but the very people who fight to protect it, fight to protect it from ever being successful.
We are offering a new lease on the life of the Greenwood area, and they are upset because it's not free. I'm sorry, but you have to be willing to invest to be successful.
The math here is flawed too. 800% of what?
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
They can't build the John Hope Franklin memorial because they don't have enough money and apparently haven't had enough for some time now.
The Mayor and Stan Lybarger, in the Council meeting yesterday, committed to personally raising the remaining $750k to get the memorial done.
Maybe if the Mayor had made funding the Memorial a priority during her lobbying efforts at the state capitol, like she did for the low water dams, she wouldn't need to promise raise the funds personally now to sugar coat this Ballpark deal.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Maybe if the Mayor had made funding the Memorial a priority during her lobbying efforts at the state capitol, like she did for the low water dams, she wouldn't need to promise raise the funds personally now to sugar coat this Ballpark deal.
How do you she didn't? Do you know all the things that were asked?
You are unbelievable. You can take anything and turn it negative against her. She helped convince the state to give us millions, then offered to privately raise money for another project, yet you feel compelled to attack without any knowledge.
You need help.
Driller's Stadium is the best thing to happen to greenwood and will accelerate it's development decades sooner. Peeing on it seems completely anti-greenwood to me. Imagine if 71st protested that pesky mall.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Maybe if the Mayor had made funding the Memorial a priority during her lobbying efforts at the state capitol, like she did for the low water dams, she wouldn't need to promise raise the funds personally now to sugar coat this Ballpark deal.
How do you she didn't? Do you know all the things that were asked?
You are unbelievable. You can take anything and turn it negative against her. She helped convince the state to give us millions, then offered to privately raise money for another project, yet you feel compelled to attack without any knowledge.
You need help.
Evidently, the low water dams were a higher priority.
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
The math here is flawed too. 800% of what?
According to today's
Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080710_11_A1_spancl616645%22), of $51.
But 800% of $51 is $408.
The
World article (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080710_11_A1_spancl616645%22) states that the assessment on Jim Goodwin's property would increase $1,593. That's a 3123% increase.
There must be a flaw in these numbers, but I think the City Council will approve the new assessments tonight regardless.
quote:
Jim Goodwin, publisher of the Oklahoma Eagle, complained about the assessment hike. According to records, last year he was charged $51 for 25,294 square feet. Under the new rate the assessment would be $1,644.
My math was incorrect because I only used his building, not his property.
But the amount his assessment will go up is minimal compared to how much his property value is going to increase.
The day that ballpark opens the value of his property goes up tens of thousands of dollars, if not more.
If he doesn't want to help build downtown Tulsa...fine. Sell me the property. I will pay whatever the number the county tax assessor says is the value is on the books right now.
For him, of all people, to be opposed to this development, is stupid.
To bring the issue up again: do we know who these donors are?
Generally, when someone or a company is going to give tens of millions for a project - they shout it from the rooftop. Why the hush hush? Even if the funds are contingent on the tax passing, they could still come forward. Just seems odd, I wonder who it is.
I'm very curious who the donors are as well. The only information on this I've seen comes from Urban Tulsa, and it basically includes the usual suspects:
"The Williams Companies, ONEOK, Bank of Oklahoma, PSO, the Tulsa World and the Kaiser Family Foundation are among the contributors."
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A23756
Odd--don't the rules of journalism a disclosure by the Tulsa World in its stories that it is contributing toward the project? You'd think they'd be happy to trumpet this fact.
Who owns land in that area? Unfortunately, knowing Tulsa politics I wouldn't be surprised if there is a tie in. Not that I really care, the result will still be what I want - so long as the deal is kept in the open.
FB - make yourself useful, go explore this new possible conspiracy!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Who owns land in that area? Unfortunately, knowing Tulsa politics I wouldn't be surprised if there is a tie in. Not that I really care, the result will still be what I want - so long as the deal is kept in the open.
FB - make yourself useful, go explore this new possible conspiracy!
Michael Sager and David Sharp each have a ton of property in the area, and own a lot of it if not most of the area.
Ever wonder why we don't get a Pizza Hut Park or a Verizon Park . Why great ideas are lost to local BOK type endeavors [}:)]
OKC is kicking our tails with concerts and most of them are at their Zoo.
Gee wasn't Tulsa going to have an Amphitheater a few years ago but the bullies didn't want us to have it. Could have been Tulsa instead but of course the people didn't have a say again did they[B)]
Document posted by Tulsa World
List of ballpark donors released (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/cityresponsetomartinson.pdf%22)
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
My math was incorrect because I only used his building, not his property.
But the amount his assessment will go up is minimal compared to how much his property value is going to increase.
The day that ballpark opens the value of his property goes up tens of thousands of dollars, if not more.
If he doesn't want to help build downtown Tulsa...fine. Sell me the property. I will pay whatever the number the county tax assessor says is the value is on the books right now.
For him, of all people, to be opposed to this development, is stupid.
Maybe you could get Kathy Taylor to set up a new Trust and buy it for you at the taxpayers expense?
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
Document posted by Tulsa World
List of ballpark donors released (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/cityresponsetomartinson.pdf%22)
looks like the usual Kaiser clique. The "major" donors for this town is an awful short list.
The city council meeting is on TGOV now. Don't forget to TIVO this riveting action.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Maybe if the Mayor had made funding the Memorial a priority during her lobbying efforts at the state capitol, like she did for the low water dams, she wouldn't need to promise raise the funds personally now to sugar coat this Ballpark deal.
How do you she didn't? Do you know all the things that were asked?
You are unbelievable. You can take anything and turn it negative against her. She helped convince the state to give us millions, then offered to privately raise money for another project, yet you feel compelled to attack without any knowledge.
You need help.
Evidently, the low water dams were a higher priority.
The memorial is important and I am sure it will get done. But the dams cost a lot more and are indeed a higher priority at this time. OKC got 25mill for its Cultural Center we got 25 for the dams. I think we got a better deal and are using our money for a better purpose. The dams will be a better quality of life, will be used by more people, and be a better economic plus for Tulsa than the Indian thing in OKC will be for them. I actually thought the logical thing to do was to get some funds for our memorial, they get some for the Indian Cultural Center, we the memorial. I believe they were originally wanting like 40 mill to finish that Cultural Center.
What usually happens is that they would get the 40 mill and we get 4 mill. Thats always what happens. But we got 25 and they got 25. I dont know what kind of wrangling went on, but appears to me that we got a good share out of the deal. Was far better than I expected and far better than what we usually get. Plus looks like she is going to get the memorial funded as well. May end up just being a matter of months difference.
Was it me, or did Billy M seem a little ticked about the cartoon in today's paper....[}:)]
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2008/200807_A16_20080710_Plante20080710.jpg)
THE TULSA CITY COUNCIL HAS TAKEN A SHORT BREAK
-- hmmm. no commercials? what exciting hijinks will ensue... [:o)]
I wish I got TGOV! I have Cox but since I'm on campus, they replace TGOV with the campus "station"... So I keep coming back here to check for updates. What's the news?
...wow. This is becoming quite a turf war... seems like an alternate universe compared to the stadium site I've driven by... now the guy from Central Park Condos is speaking...
Tori Snyder took forever to get around to her point. Sager up now and RM is next.
Sager bringing the mickey mantle prop was a nice touch. RM spoke for 30secs, mainly to make the point that Tulsa should fight to keep the Tulsa Drillers in Tulsa.
Jim Mccarthy (EVP Semgroup) is up now, Chuck Lamson is next.
The guy from SEM group brought up the point of having trouble drawing employees to Tulsa...
Lamson speaking... talking about 100 years of Tulsa baseball... didn't realize Drillers tickets were exempt from sales tax?
The exemption from sales tax is something the state mandated. It was mentioned in the PDF file posted above.
DTU unanimously supports a tax increase? pancakes?
Are they going to move to a vote, or is BM going to try to postpone it until more of his q's are a'd? [;)]
Public hearing closed.. finally.
Oh great, here's one of the "you're messing up greenwood" and "not paying attention to the underserved."
I think she just said baseball wasn't a black sport.
Who?
The chair recognizes the gentleman from the Dominican Republic.........
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Chico.jpg)
"Baseball... been bery bery good to me.....
Baseball.... been bery bery good to lawyers too."
thank you
Chico Escuela
Apparently they save everyone who can't speak their way out of a box until the end. Somebody named Sober is rambling aimlessly.
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
Who?
I'm not sure.. she said she was a church mouse.
So was it passed?
Ahh.. Sober's point is that the assessment district increase is small compared to what it costs to do business. Apparently he used to pay 160,000 in rent and the increased assessment would've made it 161,000.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
So was it passed?
Still going.
guess I'm not good at names..... I have trouble with the argument proposed that a minor league ballpark is gonna get this guy new employees... lotsa stretching the truth and hyperbole... we have a twentysomething lecturing the council on due diligence...
She was saying the whole thing was rushed.. I seem to remember this deal being worked on for months but that's just because I read the news.
The guy who's up now is a property manager. So far I've heard one speaker opposed and one for delaying and everyone else was for it, but I came in late.
Mayor is up.. I'm assuming she's for it.. ha.
I enjoy the suggestion that it's not punishing downtown property owners, it's simply deciding to not coddle downtown anymore..
Also thought it's interesting that Gomez is going to take a hard look at downtown services and how they are provided. (DTU) and also the statement that this could be the new DFEST main stage.
It's council discussion now.
Christiansen is saying he will vote yes.
Gomez is also for it. Martinson is up, time to see if he is gonna throw a roadblock.
Martinson wants to delay a week and says he didn't really know anything before Tuesday (he doesn't read the paper I guess) and that he hasn't had time to read his 8 page document that is posted above.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Martinson wants to delay a week and says he didn't really know anything before Tuesday (he doesn't read the paper I guess) and that he hasn't had time to read his 8 page document that is posted above.
I read that document in less than 10 minutes this afternoon. Seriously, is it that hard for him to READ?
Looks like Wescott is a postpone as well.
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Martinson wants to delay a week and says he didn't really know anything before Tuesday (he doesn't read the paper I guess) and that he hasn't had time to read his 8 page document that is posted above.
I read that document in less than 10 minutes this afternoon. Seriously, is it that hard for him to READ?
You and me both.
Patrick says he's been involved since he was a councilor (unlike martinson who can't read) and he is ready to vote yes.
Vote so far:
Yes: 2
Delay: 2
No: 0
(http://www.cdromshop.com/cdshop/img/p.825247025902.jpg)
Troyer says yes too. Bynum up now.
Yes: 3
Maybe: 2
No: 0
Bynum says he has had plenty of time:
Yes: 4
Maybe: 2
No: 0
Henderson up. Says it is a great thing for North Tulsa. Says only 3 people in his district voiced any concerns about the baseball stadium moving to greenwood. Henderson said if someone had a problem with it, they shoulda called him before tonight because he's voting yes. He says no delay, it's Tulsa's time, North Tulsa's time and Greenwood's time.
Yes: 5
Maybe: 2
No: 0
I can't count
Yes: 6
Maybe: 3
no: 0
Eagleton is the only one left. He wants to do allow appeals and on-offs "to be fair."
Move to delay for one week:
No: 6
Yes: 3
Bynum proposes an amendment that the city cannot incur any debt.
Eagleton proposes the amendment that the district be assessed on property value, not square footage and the pros pointed out this would make it harder on greenwood and be extremely complicated. Lawyer says the proposal may not even be legal.
Eagleton's amendment : No: 6 Yes: 3
Eagleton proposes an appeals process but he is having problem even getting a second.
Vote to pass with bynum's amendment:
Yes: 6
No: 3
Looks like Driller's are coming downtown!!!!
Play Ball.
That twentysomething girl who was lecturing the council on due diligence; I am almost positive she was the member of the TYPros that opposed the river vote and accused the YP types of misrepresenting Young Professional interest.
Please...move back to Denver.
Actually she probably moved to Tulsa from Denver because they pass progressive stuff like this all the time there.
(http://constitutionclub.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/champagne-4.jpg)
Woohoo!
Great move! I am looking forward to the critical mass this ballpark will reinforce downtown and the development that critical mass will support.
BTW...as a resident of Dist. 9 I was doing cart wheels when Bynum started talking about getting density and hinting at understanding the detriment of sprawl. You go young man!
I am glad it passed. Now we can build a ballpark that we can be proud of.
Play Ball!
But why all the BS pushing it.
Everyone just about wanted it downtown, that wasn't in question. For some reason all the false 2025 promises for downtown resurfaced. Wonder what it'll be downtown needs in 2 more years[:X]
Something interesting I found while examining the proposed siteplan is that the Mickey Mantle Museum isn't just merely mentioned (i.e., "it would surely fit somewhere in the plan"), but instead is actually given space directly connected to the stadium. I'm assuming this means that talks have gone well with the Mantle family... and I am really excited about our prospects. Things are beginning to line up and fall in place.
John Hope Franklin Reconciliation & Park? Check.
BOk Center? Check.
Drillers Stadium? Check.
Mickey Mantle Museum? Maybe.
Mathews Warehouse Gallery Conversion? Check.
KOTV/Griffin Comm. HQ? Check.
120 Lofts & Retail? Check.
DTU dead? Check.
Things are looking up! It seems like the critical mass situation has or is just about to occur... Downtown Tulsa 2012 will be much different than Downtown Tulsa 2008.
Look on the key for the location of the (proposed) Mantle Museum (or restaurant, if the museum doesn't go through).
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/2657181159_f7e1593476_o.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
DTU dead? Check.
Don't count on that yet.
Do the parking lots pay the new tax ? Will they start charging to park 24 hours a day to make up the differance? Are the days of free parking and low baseball ticket prices soon to be gone?
Considering the squabble over the L E D billboards , how will the council handle the stadium lights next to the highway?
Looking at the site plan, where will the main entrance be? I'd assume behind home plate at Brady & Elgin but can't tell for sure. And I assume general parking is located at the lots of OSU-Tulsa 2 blocks to the north? However I guess the idea would be to park anywhere you can in and around the area and walk to games, which is great. Less in the way of park, go to game, then drive home immediately after...
If the ballpark can attract new buildings and businesses to those "purple boxes" around it that area could be really amazing with a more urban feel than anywhere else in Tulsa. I can only hope that the ballpark, Mickey Mantle Museum (a really cool idea), Franklin Center, 120 Brady Lofts, and associated development will push OSU-Tulsa just to the north to build new buildings and increase their enrollment, and to finally add on-campus student housing.
The way I see it Elgin becomes one of the most important streets downtown with this plan. It effectively connects OSU-Tulsa at the north end to the ballpark/Brady district, the future commuter rail station, and then right through the heart of Blue Dome all the way down to 11th. One thing that could really complete that whole area and the Elgin corridor would be a downtown movie theater right where that vacant warehouse and parking lot are at 1st and Elgin. Something like an urban Warren Theater there would be a huge draw from all over the Metro.
At the new Busch Stadium in St. Louis, most fans enter gate one near the right field foul pole.
Lots of ballparks have multiple entrances without a main gate.
I think the days of close by free parking for Driller games is probably gone.
If there was one thing the county does well at the Fairgrounds, it is parking.
Why, they even moved other stuff out of there and build a parking lot just this past year.
I'd love for this to happen but that site plan looks rushed for such an expensive project. I'd like to see more time and thought go into the design.
If it were a 15 or 20 million dollar project this would be in line, but for 60 million, we should get a very well thought out, unique design.
I guess this is just very preliminary. Gotta get something in front of people fast before the emotion dies.
Who the heck was this Miss Goodwin? Related to the attorney? There was more crazy in that speech then Medlock interviewing Paul Tay at the circus.
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
Who the heck was this Miss Goodwin? Related to the attorney? There was more crazy in that speech then Medlock interviewing Paul Tay at the circus.
Pure gold, Gold.
[:D]
Did anyone record this? Maybe they can post it on YouTube and post a link????
I can't believe I sat there for 5-and-a-half hours!
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I think the days of close by free parking for Driller games is probably gone.
If there was one thing the county does well at the Fairgrounds, it is parking.
Why, they even moved other stuff out of there and build a parking lot just this past year.
sounds to me like they're going to get a heck of a lot of an opportunity to do real well at it again. [:D]
HOK has already done conceptual design for the stadium so I would guess they would get the go ahead to start schematic design now that it's passed. If that is so then we should expect a contractor to be selected after design development drawings are finished sometime this fall/winter and construction to start soon after. With the way the city works though I'd be surprised to see anything really start before spring or even next summer. I do hope they use that master plan and enforce urban design requirements in the area. I would also hope the new district around the ballpark will be getting new lighting, sidewalks, street trees, etc. similar to what they've done in other parts of downtown.
Well this is great news. Who knows, I may go crazy and actually go to my first baseball game lol. [8D]
Yes, at best it will likely be early spring before they break ground and start construction. Would be nice if the 120 loft project got started before then though. Boy that developer just got handed a nice bit of good luck. That ground level retail and restaurant space will be prime location.
For $60 million it would be nice to make it even more multi use and add a soccer layout to it.
"Build it and they will come"
[:D][:D]
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
HOK has already done conceptual design for the stadium so I would guess they would get the go ahead to start schematic design now that it's passed. If that is so then we should expect a contractor to be selected after design development drawings are finished sometime this fall/winter and construction to start soon after. With the way the city works though I'd be surprised to see anything really start before spring or even next summer. I do hope they use that master plan and enforce urban design requirements in the area. I would also hope the new district around the ballpark will be getting new lighting, sidewalks, street trees, etc. similar to what they've done in other parts of downtown.
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I'm more concerned about the design. I realllllly hope HOK brings major local elements into the design and doesn't give us a pre-packaged stadium. I know they can do that, but it just depends on their team and what directions we give them. Taylor and Lamson need to be willing to send them back to the drawing board a couple times if they aren't doing it right.
I wouldn't be surprised if Manhattan is moving dirt by the end of the summer. Their president has been actively involved in this project from early on.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
HOK has already done conceptual design for the stadium so I would guess they would get the go ahead to start schematic design now that it's passed. If that is so then we should expect a contractor to be selected after design development drawings are finished sometime this fall/winter and construction to start soon after. With the way the city works though I'd be surprised to see anything really start before spring or even next summer. I do hope they use that master plan and enforce urban design requirements in the area. I would also hope the new district around the ballpark will be getting new lighting, sidewalks, street trees, etc. similar to what they've done in other parts of downtown.
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I'm more concerned about the design. I realllllly hope HOK brings major local elements into the design and doesn't give us a pre-packaged stadium. I know they can do that, but it just depends on their team and what directions we give them. Taylor and Lamson need to be willing to send them back to the drawing board a couple times if they aren't doing it right.
I wouldn't be surprised if Manhattan is moving dirt by the end of the summer. Their president has been actively involved in this project from early on.
Manhattan? Flintco did the OU stadium project (along with Boone Pickens at OSU), which one are you talking about? Of course Flintco and Manhattan are partners for the BOk Center.
From the council meeting, Mayor Taylor seemed fairly confident that with it passing, there would be shovels in the ground sometime this fall.
Thought Manhattan did it . . . but I think you're right. I seem to recall Manhattan signs up around campus for at least some projects . . . oh, looks like it was the College of Journalism next door to the stadium. http://manhattanconstruction.com/projects/recently_complete/education/2792_full.htm
Anyway, Manhattan is doing this one.
See points 7 and 8: http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/content/MartinsonQuestions.pdf
OK then, question for those in the know:
Whose payroll will the people responsible for the day-to-day operations of the facility (maintenance, infrastructure, electronic/electrical, plumbing etc.) be on? Will the COT partially staff this or are the Drillers responsible for the running, upkeep/repair of their own rental so to speak?
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
OK then, question for those in the know:
Whose payroll will the people responsible for the day-to-day operations of the facility (maintenance, infrastructure, electronic/electrical, plumbing etc.) be on? Will the COT partially staff this or are the Drillers responsible for the running, upkeep/repair of their own rental so to speak?
Drillers
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
HOK has already done conceptual design for the stadium so I would guess they would get the go ahead to start schematic design now that it's passed. If that is so then we should expect a contractor to be selected after design development drawings are finished sometime this fall/winter and construction to start soon after. With the way the city works though I'd be surprised to see anything really start before spring or even next summer. I do hope they use that master plan and enforce urban design requirements in the area. I would also hope the new district around the ballpark will be getting new lighting, sidewalks, street trees, etc. similar to what they've done in other parts of downtown.
According to the information provided last night Manhattan has already been awarded the contract.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
OK then, question for those in the know:
Whose payroll will the people responsible for the day-to-day operations of the facility (maintenance, infrastructure, electronic/electrical, plumbing etc.) be on? Will the COT partially staff this or are the Drillers responsible for the running, upkeep/repair of their own rental so to speak?
Drillers
I believe you but can you tell me where that's spelled out or where you heard it?
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
I can't believe I sat there for 5-and-a-half hours!
[:O]
So, it's true that watching the inner-workings of politics is like watching sausage being made?
Of course, you wouldn't want to say that at the Council meeting:
Henderson: Did someone say sausage? Where can I get a sausage?
Eagleton: I believe someone said sausage as well. Perhaps we should delay this vote for a sausage break. I can't proceed tonight without at least a hot dog.
Westcott: Can we get a legal opinion as to whether we have a right to sausages and or sausage breaks during this meeting?
Attorney: Well, I'd, uh, have to study that. But there is some precdent that sausage is very good, legally speaking.
Bynum: I'd like to propose a friendly amendment that we got get some sausage right now, and that the city pay for it, but that at the same time, it bares no responsibility for any debt and/or indigestion acquired as a result of said sausage eating.
Henderson: Can you say that again, the part about the sausage?
Bynum: Right . . . that the city bares no responsibility for any debt . . . yadda, yadda, sausage.
Henderson: So you're saying we get sausages?
Bynum: Yes.
Christiansen: The voters in my district also want extra long sausages, as they've suffered for years with small sausages.
Patrick: Hey now . . . my district doesn't even have a grocery store and we really like sausage.
Troyer: I think we're all in agreement that sausages are delicious. Why don't we just vote on the sausages now and go eat them?
Martinson: I neeed more time to make up my mind. I don't like how this group does business. Sausages are great, but we need to make sure about it. That's what we were elected to do.
Eagleton: Alright, there's a motion . . . should we get sausages? I admit I love sausages, but in the spirit of government, I think at this time we should wait to get sausages because it looks like we are taking our job seriously by being deliberately slow.
Westcott: Couldn't have said it better!
Eagleton: But when we get sausages, which we will, I'm first in line.
Was it just me, or did Eagleton seem very smug about his proposed amendments?
I don't really have anything against him, but you could really see him try not to show his disappointment when Henderson shot him down not only once, but twice.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
LeThey already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders.
Why compete?
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
Only 50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheisse.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheisse, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa.
Hello Duluth.
Gott bless that Public Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to take a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be someday prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Let's pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
You left out Cowen....
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
Christ, what a train wreck that post is.
But unlike the real thing, it's a boring train wreck.
You'd think after the beating you took from your lack of knowledge of baseball and the Texas League, you'd back off. A smarter man would. But, no.
Why don't you take your brand of crazy over to the Voice of Tulsa, freerepublic.com or Bates' blog? They seem a lot more tolerant of nutcases over there.
Over here, people know you're just an insane old crank.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
(http://www.wilddamntexan.com/kids/demotivators/aphex-twin.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
Christ, what a train wreck that post is.
But unlike the real thing, it's a boring train wreck.
You'd think after the beating you took from your lack of knowledge of baseball and the Texas League, you'd back off. A smarter man would. But, no.
Why don't you take your brand of crazy over to the Voice of Tulsa, freerepublic.com or Bates' blog? They seem a lot more tolerant of nutcases over there.
Over here, people know you're just an insane old crank.
Feel free to show me WHERE I'm wrong......
[8D]
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
Christ, what a train wreck that post is.
But unlike the real thing, it's a boring train wreck.
You'd think after the beating you took from your lack of knowledge of baseball and the Texas League, you'd back off. A smarter man would. But, no.
Why don't you take your brand of crazy over to the Voice of Tulsa, freerepublic.com or Bates' blog? They seem a lot more tolerant of nutcases over there.
Over here, people know you're just an insane old crank.
Why are you always *itching , geez get a life[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
Christ, what a train wreck that post is.
But unlike the real thing, it's a boring train wreck.
You'd think after the beating you took from your lack of knowledge of baseball and the Texas League, you'd back off. A smarter man would. But, no.
Why don't you take your brand of crazy over to the Voice of Tulsa, freerepublic.com or Bates' blog? They seem a lot more tolerant of nutcases over there.
Over here, people know you're just an insane old crank.
Why are you always *itching , geez get a life[:X]
Complain?
Who ME complain?
Just trying to document for the discerning Tulsa area public how things really operate for the benefit of the Ruling Oligarchy Families, here in the Banana Republic of Tulsa.
[:O]
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
I figured that there would be some sort of legal action (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080712_11_A11_hFivel41871%22) filed to prevent the revised business improvement district assessments, but this has happened fast...
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Reminds me of when Manhattan donated money to St. Johns and got the contract for their 28 million dollar expansion. When they started to get behind schedule and incur late penalties there was suddenly a fire after regular working hours and insurance picked up the tab from then on out. It's an investment, not a donation. The Rooney's always get a return on their investments. Watch for the change orders on this stadium, that is if they even have to go through the Council for approval. Da Mare probably set this deal up she could approve them by executive order or by the sole authority of this new unaccountable Trust. Since the majority of this Trust will be made up of donors, I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?
Originally posted by Double A.
"I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?"
Dunno..... Might call the Vatican and ask.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally posted by Double A.
"I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?"
Dunno..... Might call the Vatican and ask.
Manhattan Construction has been around about 100 years.
Like Flintco.
While our disposable local pimping politicians come; and go.
When their moral authority is drained by serial lies and half-truth from their finite Well of Credibility, then the local Controlling Power Elite have several "Reformers" waiting in reserve, to replace their worn out brand.
Thanks for Great Plains Airlines, Mayor Susan. Your usefulness is now over. Good-bye.
But, here's a nice State Government job to keep you in groceries, for services previously rendered.
I suspect this whole Stadium deal is actually very, very simple:
Cash Flow for Manhattan Construction Co.
Why?
The BOK Arena will be finished in September. Hence, the $200 million sales tax gravy train for the Rooney/Flints will shortly dry up.
Coincidentally, Mayor Kathy Taylor wants to break ground on the new Stadium in:
September.
To keep the concrete flowing?
And, then maybe they will help her become Governor in 2010.....
Whadya think?
Maybe?
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally posted by Double A.
"I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?"
Dunno..... Might call the Vatican and ask.
Wonder if a Rooney would answer the phone?
Calling Ambassador to the Vatican Francis Rooney.................
Francis Rooney is CEO of Rooney Holdings, Inc., an investment and holding company based in Naples, Florida, with administrative offices in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Rooney Holdings emerged from nowhere to become one of the GOP's biggest donors during the last election, upping its campaign contributions from just $11,000 during the 2002 cycle to more than $500,000 in 2004.
Thanks to his fund-raising efforts, Rooney himself was among the few individuals named as both a Bush Ranger, having raised at least $200,000 for the president's re-election, and a Super Ranger (among the elite donors who raised another $300,000 for the Republican National Committee).
Rooney is the majority owner of Manhattan Construction Company, the fourth generation of his family to own that company.
Manhattan Construction built the Oklahoma State Capitol, the George Bush Presidential Library, the Cato Institute headquarters, the Prayer Tower and other structures on the Oral Roberts University and is building part of the new visitors' center at the United States Capitol.
The subsidiary won an estimated $100 million in Pentagon contracts in 2003, nearly four times the amount the company won in 2002, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
A Georgetown University and Georgetown Law graduate, Rooney is a member of the Advisory Board of the Panama Canal Authority. Georgetown Univ. is run by the Jesuit Order.
Rooney and his wife have served on the boards of many charitable organizations, and he is a Knight of Malta.
Does this mean that a $500K investment in GWBush, Inc. nets his company $100 million in Pentagon contracts.
Just a coincidence?
I just cannot understand why he wasn't picked for Ambassador to Israel.....
[:I]
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
Ok but whats a straight white guy supposed to do after the game besides get a drink with the kids.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
Ok but whats a straight white guy supposed to do after the game besides get a drink with the kids.
RUN for your car!
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Quote
RUN for your car!
Boy, that really says it all...... you really could care less about Brady, Blue Dome, etc... and you truly couldn't be more clueless about crime in Tulsa when you make a blanket statement like that.
Now, show us your true face again, and post another joke about the jews and George Kaiser... [:(!]
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
Ok but whats a straight white guy supposed to do after the game besides get a drink with the kids.
Uh, drink a beer with the wife?
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
Ok but whats a straight white guy supposed to do after the game besides get a drink with the kids.
Uh, drink a beer with the wife?
Marriage! thats so un-downtownish
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A4_spancl177563
"They're asking for some things we can't get without an active contract," he said.
The devil had warned you of Crowley.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A1_spancl864930
"The last thing we want is seedy stuff around the stadium." Oh, the irony.
And this!
"Fred Dorwart, Tulsa attorney. He represented the interest of the Bank of Oklahoma in a lawsuit and settlement over a $7.1 million defaulted loan connected to the defunct Great Plains Airline.
Margaret Kobos, an attorney who joined Dorwart's firm this year. Prior to that she was an attorney with the Bank of Oklahoma."
FB, you are onto something. But leave the personal attacks out of it.
Does anyone know who the T Town Clowns were?
The devil thinks this does soil over the Tulsa Race Riot.....
"The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma is haunted by untreated wounds suffered
in a past trauma – the 1921 Tulsa race riot, war and massacre of African
American men, women and children in the Greenwood business and
residential community. The Tulsa Reparations Coalition is appealing
to individuals and organizations that believe in human rights and know
that an injustice to one is an injustice to all. We are inviting you to do
your part in securing justice for the victims and living survivors of the
1921 Tulsa devastation."
Tulsa Reparations Coalition
As much as the devil advocates this ballpark, the city better be damn careful who they screw and who they alienate in their elitist process.
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by MDepr2007
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You need help. End of discussion.
I can't wait to go for a stroll downtown, accidentally catch a baseball game and then wander over to the Living Arts Center in the Mathews Warehouse before getting some delicious chocolates from CFC Chocolatier.
Ok but whats a straight white guy supposed to do after the game besides get a drink with the kids.
Uh, drink a beer with the wife?
Marriage! thats so un-downtownish
Well if it were legal for more of us....[8D]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Quote
RUN for your car!
Boy, that really says it all...... you really could care less about Brady, Blue Dome, etc... and you truly couldn't be more clueless about crime in Tulsa when you make a blanket statement like that.
Now, show us your true face again, and post another joke about the jews and George Kaiser... [:(!]
Error noted in your joke reference.
I used the Singular Form; NOT the Plural form.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A4_spancl177563
"They're asking for some things we can't get without an active contract," he said.
The devil had warned you of Crowley.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A1_spancl864930
"The last thing we want is seedy stuff around the stadium." Oh, the irony.
And this!
"Fred Dorwart, Tulsa attorney. He represented the interest of the Bank of Oklahoma in a lawsuit and settlement over a $7.1 million defaulted loan connected to the defunct Great Plains Airline.
Margaret Kobos, an attorney who joined Dorwart's firm this year. Prior to that she was an attorney with the Bank of Oklahoma."
FB, you are onto something. But leave the personal attacks out of it.
Does anyone know who the T Town Clowns were?
The devil thinks this does soil over the Tulsa Race Riot.....
"The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma is haunted by untreated wounds suffered
in a past trauma – the 1921 Tulsa race riot, war and massacre of African
American men, women and children in the Greenwood business and
residential community. The Tulsa Reparations Coalition is appealing
to individuals and organizations that believe in human rights and know
that an injustice to one is an injustice to all. We are inviting you to do
your part in securing justice for the victims and living survivors of the
1921 Tulsa devastation."
Tulsa Reparations Coalition
As much as the devil advocates this ballpark, the city better be damn careful who they screw and who they alienate in their elitist process.
Agree. For once. This smells just a bit.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally posted by Double A.
"I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?"
Dunno..... Might call the Vatican and ask.
Wonder if a Rooney would answer the phone?
Calling Ambassador to the Vatican Francis Rooney.................
Francis Rooney is CEO of Rooney Holdings, Inc., an investment and holding company based in Naples, Florida, with administrative offices in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Rooney Holdings emerged from nowhere to become one of the GOP's biggest donors during the last election, upping its campaign contributions from just $11,000 during the 2002 cycle to more than $500,000 in 2004.
Thanks to his fund-raising efforts, Rooney himself was among the few individuals named as both a Bush Ranger, having raised at least $200,000 for the president's re-election, and a Super Ranger (among the elite donors who raised another $300,000 for the Republican National Committee).
Rooney is the majority owner of Manhattan Construction Company, the fourth generation of his family to own that company.
Manhattan Construction built the Oklahoma State Capitol, the George Bush Presidential Library, the Cato Institute headquarters, the Prayer Tower and other structures on the Oral Roberts University and is building part of the new visitors' center at the United States Capitol.
The subsidiary won an estimated $100 million in Pentagon contracts in 2003, nearly four times the amount the company won in 2002, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
A Georgetown University and Georgetown Law graduate, Rooney is a member of the Advisory Board of the Panama Canal Authority. Georgetown Univ. is run by the Jesuit Order.
Rooney and his wife have served on the boards of many charitable organizations, and he is a Knight of Malta.
Does this mean that a $500K investment in GWBush, Inc. nets his company $100 million in Pentagon contracts.
Just a coincidence?
I just cannot understand why he wasn't picked for Ambassador to Israel.....
[:I]
You know FB, it would lend credibility to your arguments if you did not cast hate comments veiled in jokes.
Instead, you might add Rooney is the second largest stockholder in BOK. See, now that displays more crediblilty to conflicts of interest and Banana Republic control.
If you keep up the intolerant rant, however, the devil will advocate you looking into certain attorney's backgrounds with regard to associations with bigots.....
I bet that John Hope Franklin Recon Center site will belong to the Tulsa Parking Authority once they can scale back the eventual design to a postage stamp building or fountain and move it up the block....our dark history of hate must be obscured. Black Wall Street be gone. Batter up.
I find it hard to understand that so many here still beleive in the fairy tale that came about last Thursday evening.
The lack of detail in the hurried sketches of a ballark should help some figure it out [;)]
How much detail do you expect when no-one has even paid an architect yet?
Sgrizz.... please if not for the "Drama Queens" building a ball park or paying an old debt would be so mundane....
They remind me of the little black preacher that used to be on the Main mall every day.....
"Repent or the world will come to an end...! The Devil works in many mysterious ways....!"
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally posted by Double A.
"I wonder if Manhattan will have representatives serving?"
Dunno..... Might call the Vatican and ask.
Wonder if a Rooney would answer the phone?
Calling Ambassador to the Vatican Francis Rooney.................
Francis Rooney is CEO of Rooney Holdings, Inc., an investment and holding company based in Naples, Florida, with administrative offices in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Rooney Holdings emerged from nowhere to become one of the GOP's biggest donors during the last election, upping its campaign contributions from just $11,000 during the 2002 cycle to more than $500,000 in 2004.
Thanks to his fund-raising efforts, Rooney himself was among the few individuals named as both a Bush Ranger, having raised at least $200,000 for the president's re-election, and a Super Ranger (among the elite donors who raised another $300,000 for the Republican National Committee).
Rooney is the majority owner of Manhattan Construction Company, the fourth generation of his family to own that company.
Manhattan Construction built the Oklahoma State Capitol, the George Bush Presidential Library, the Cato Institute headquarters, the Prayer Tower and other structures on the Oral Roberts University and is building part of the new visitors' center at the United States Capitol.
The subsidiary won an estimated $100 million in Pentagon contracts in 2003, nearly four times the amount the company won in 2002, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
A Georgetown University and Georgetown Law graduate, Rooney is a member of the Advisory Board of the Panama Canal Authority. Georgetown Univ. is run by the Jesuit Order.
Rooney and his wife have served on the boards of many charitable organizations, and he is a Knight of Malta.
Does this mean that a $500K investment in GWBush, Inc. nets his company $100 million in Pentagon contracts.
Just a coincidence?
I just cannot understand why he wasn't picked for Ambassador to Israel.....
[:I]
You know FB, it would lend credibility to your arguments if you did not cast hate comments veiled in jokes.
Instead, you might add Rooney is the second largest stockholder in BOK. See, now that displays more crediblilty to conflicts of interest and Banana Republic control.
If you keep up the intolerant rant, however, the devil will advocate you looking into certain attorney's backgrounds with regard to associations with bigots.....
I bet that John Hope Franklin Recon Center site will belong to the Tulsa Parking Authority once they can scale back the eventual design to a postage stamp building or fountain and move it up the block....our dark history of hate must be obscured. Black Wall Street be gone. Batter up.
It's All a puzzle.
[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
How much detail do you expect when no-one has even paid an architect yet?
Then why $60 million? Everyone building a minor ballpark this year and last kept it under $40 million.
The council wanted to bring up Memphis over and over but Memphis built a pro ball stadium and it cost more than $60 million 8 years ago. No way is Tulsa going to get close to what they have. Many other new parks are close to waterways , Tulsa gets the expressway.
Midland is built next to a football/soccer stadium in what is a true sports complex (//%22http://www.team-psc.com/Services/Recreational/ssc.htm%22). Which has problems too :Dec. 2007 Article (//%22http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?dept_id=475626&PAG=461&newsid=19099109%22)
Link to 2007 ballpark changes (//%22http://www.baseballparks.com/2007Minors.asp%22)
Oh and something Memphis has for downtown development Tulsa doesn't DIRECTION (//%22http://www.downtownmemphis.com/downtownmemphis/index.asp%22) and more history of course.
Just noticed something..
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle on 6/30
It's an erector set, fold it up and install it somewhere else. Give it to Jenks as a consolation prize.
quote:
Spoken by Double_A in council meeting on 7/10
... as I understand it's just a giant erector set, why not move it?
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Just noticed something..
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle on 6/30
It's an erector set, fold it up and install it somewhere else. Give it to Jenks as a consolation prize.
quote:
Spoken by Double_A in council meeting on 7/10
... as I understand it's just a giant erector set, why not move it?
This might shed some light on that:
After looking at new stadiums in Indianapolis; Toledo, Ohio; Memphis; and Oklahoma City, Taylor estimated a stadium construction price tag at around $70 million.
"It would be a ballpark figure," she said with a smile. "I'm sorry; I couldn't resist."
"At least in my lifetime, this is the only stadium we're going to build in Tulsa," she said. "The only one we will build while I'm the mayor. So we want to make sure we build it right."
Queen Kathy's quote (//%22http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20080123/ai_n21208434%22)
Da Mare had to have a brand new stadium to satisfy her champagne tastes and her elitist ego, while many Tulsans can barely afford a beer budget. Why worry about minimizing costs when you are spending other peoples money?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
They already bid it out--Manhattan Construction is building the thing. I think their bid basically included a donation, so they came in cheapest. Manhattan did a hell of a job on Memorial Stadium for OU; they're defintely capable of building great stadiums.
I think Manhattan will do a great job. They do good work. I heard they were selected and then decided to donate a million dollars to the project. I think they really wanted to be part of such an important project.
Manhattan and Flintco are pretty much the go-to companies for medium and large construction projects in Oklahoma. Which is great because both are family-owned companies with deep Oklahoma roots and both are based in Tulsa. Both are also multi-billion dollar companies with branch offices in many other states (and Manhattan even has one in Mexico City).
And, both receive NO BID contracts from Title 60 Pubic Trusts.
In 1973, Flinto received a NO-BID contract to build the Performing Arts Center.
ONLY A 30% COST OVERRUN.
In a short 30 years later in 2003, didn't Flint-Rooney receive a NO-BID contract to build the Kaiser BOK Arena?
Tulsa VISION Builders. Why compete.
Divide and Conquer!
Hmmmmh???
What was THEIR cost overrrun?
50%?
What was their cost overrun on the State Capitol Dome?
For 70 years, Oklahomans had NO DOME on our State Capitol?
I ALWAYS felt soooooo inferior to other states that had a dome on their state capitol.
Finally, I can now feel MUCH better now that 100% cost overruns have been delivered to the Tulsa Oligarch Familias.
And, we have a DOME.
Much better.
Much.
Old Chrome Dome Gov. Frank Keating arranged a Dome on the state capitol.
I saw it recently, and I was positively: Inspired.
Lifted up.
Exhuberant.
P.S. Will Anyone hold the Flint-Skin/Looney Rooney Tune Oligarch Families accountable, because they recycle 1% of their ill-gotten gains to pass new tax initiatives and tax renewals?
HOW pubic spirited!
And, their quality?
A word comes to mind:
Scheise.
Dreck.
Aktuel Scheise, mein Kamaraden:
Does our City of Tulsa Publik Werkes management know that to criticize their substandard construction is a Career-Ender?
Auf Wiedersen, bubi!
Good-bye Tulsa. Hello Duluth.
Alles ist Kaput!
Gott bless that Pubic Spurtedness!
Say, who constructed our Mold Ridden Tulsa City Hall?
Flint-Skins, or Looney-Rooney Tunes?
And, just TODAY, didn't the Manhattan/Rooney Tune Oligarchia Familia receive a NO-BID contract to construct the new Driller Stadium in the 'hood.
A $30 million Drillers baseball stadium for only:
$60 million.
What a DEAL!
I'm thinking of changing religions.
Do I have enough money to receive a catachism?
Teh-heh.
Keep Praying, and old WKW will be prayed up from the 7th Circle of Hell.
Someday.
I'm SURE of it.
With enough prayer, based on his level of sins, he might make it up to Purgatory in about:
Oh say.....
One Thousand Years.
Pray HARDER.
And, keep the Money and the Concrete flowing.
That WILL help.
Them.
[}:)]
Christ, what a train wreck that post is.
But unlike the real thing, it's a boring train wreck.
You'd think after the beating you took from your lack of knowledge of baseball and the Texas League, you'd back off. A smarter man would. But, no.
Why don't you take your brand of crazy over to the Voice of Tulsa, freerepublic.com or Bates' blog? They seem a lot more tolerant of nutcases over there.
Over here, people know you're just an insane old crank.
People know you are Lorton boot licker, a Whirled employee who continues to be their loyal lackey even though they took a big fat dump all over wifey and many of your other esteemed colleagues. BTW, the Whirled can't afford to keep their valued employees on staff, but they can afford to donate at least $100,000 to this stadium?
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
How much detail do you expect when no-one has even paid an architect yet?
Considering that, I certainly wouldn't expect the construction contracts to have already been awarded.
quote:
Originally posted by FOTD
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A4_spancl177563
"They're asking for some things we can't get without an active contract," he said.
The devil had warned you of Crowley.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080713_11_A1_spancl864930
"The last thing we want is seedy stuff around the stadium." Oh, the irony.
And this!
"Fred Dorwart, Tulsa attorney. He represented the interest of the Bank of Oklahoma in a lawsuit and settlement over a $7.1 million defaulted loan connected to the defunct Great Plains Airline.
Margaret Kobos, an attorney who joined Dorwart's firm this year. Prior to that she was an attorney with the Bank of Oklahoma."
FB, you are onto something. But leave the personal attacks out of it.
Does anyone know who the T Town Clowns were?
The devil thinks this does soil over the Tulsa Race Riot.....
"The city of Tulsa, Oklahoma is haunted by untreated wounds suffered
in a past trauma – the 1921 Tulsa race riot, war and massacre of African
American men, women and children in the Greenwood business and
residential community. The Tulsa Reparations Coalition is appealing
to individuals and organizations that believe in human rights and know
that an injustice to one is an injustice to all. We are inviting you to do
your part in securing justice for the victims and living survivors of the
1921 Tulsa devastation."
Tulsa Reparations Coalition
As much as the devil advocates this ballpark, the city better be damn careful who they screw and who they alienate in their elitist process.
I don't know what the real story is here, but it is usually not a one sided thing. Dr. Crowley, for example, is not responsible for negotiating TDA contracts, and he is far too busy to spend a great deal of time on any one private project
Now...I don't know what the hold up is, or what Novus Homes' financial situation is, but if there is legitimate foot dragging going on with the city, I suspect it will be resolved Monday morning.
Anyway, I know Wil Wilkins, and he is the good kind of developer...he has built in places others wouldn't (i.e. Brady Heights), and he wants to do it right. I have no reason to believe that this would not be a good project, then again, I don't know what his financial backing looks like, which is likely what make or breaks a project like this.
,
Wow! Gone 3 days and look where this thread has gone.
A zoo of a city counsel meeting. A pinch of cost overruns on previous projects. A sprinkling of conspiracy theory. Boil it all up, and you still get a $60 million dollar minor league stadium (we all know that means $80 to $100 million FB).
So, if we are going to get such a wonderful stadium, lets make sure it looks like an $80 to $100 million dollar multi-use structure that can be expanded to provide a home for a major league team in the future. I mean, that's the cost of a major league stadium, so lets build one. Is that bad logic?
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
So, if we are going to get such a wonderful stadium, lets make sure it looks like an $80 to $100 million dollar multi-use structure that can be expanded to provide a home for a major league team in the future. I mean, that's the cost of a major league stadium, so lets build one. Is that bad logic?
You better check again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_stadiums
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
So, if we are going to get such a wonderful stadium, lets make sure it looks like an $80 to $100 million dollar multi-use structure that can be expanded to provide a home for a major league team in the future. I mean, that's the cost of a major league stadium, so lets build one. Is that bad logic?
You better check again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_stadiums
Good link. I suppose it would be a bit pricey to go for Major League at this point. I was just looking at minor league stadiums. They seem to be in the $20 to $30 range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums#Minor_leagues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stadiums#Minor_leagues
Now if you can capture the 700 speakers who came to discuss sausages as well, you would have the whole meeting.
Part of that 60mill tag is the cost of the properties around the ballpark and supposedly the plaza and fountain, crosswalks, etc. Not clear if that cost also includes any development other than the ballpark and the museum. Perhaps the stuff right next to the ballpark? I am still not sure whats going on.
Lets just call it $100 million, then when it comes in at $80 million we'll feel like it was a bargain!
Does this price tag also include the Mickey Mantle museum? If so, comparing it to the cost of other minor league parks isn't gonna mesh. If not... it better be a pretty one :)
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
Lets just call it $100 million, then when it comes in at $80 million we'll feel like it was a bargain!
The question is still, what is "it"?
The Ballpark? The museum? The Plaza and fountain? The properties? Some development on the properties?...
The Ballpark itself may only be around 30 mill. Though if for some extra we get something wonderful, that would be fine with me.
ONE OTHER THING! is it just me or when anyone else types a post on here and one of those ads above with the "moving" stuff on it is up, does what your typing go really slow and cause you to mess up! Its friggin irritating.![:(!]Its hard to even fix your mistakes because it takes a while for your cursor to reappear when you move it. Especially that glowing "freedom fellowship crap and that lawnmower"!
One nice thing about having a public trust set up is that all the details of the plan will be publicly available as they come online.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
ONE OTHER THING! is it just me or when anyone else types a post on here and one of those ads above with the "moving" stuff on it is up, does what your typing go really slow and cause you to mess up! Its friggin irritating.![:(!]Its hard to even fix your mistakes because it takes a while for your cursor to reappear when you move it. Especially that glowing "freedom fellowship crap and that lawnmower"!
No, I don't have any issues with it.
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag. Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)
I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.
Example:
"Congratulations! You've just won the lottery!"
Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"
I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue. But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive. Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue. It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store. Just makes you want to check out faster!
Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind. It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate. People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum. And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.
(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant. Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag. Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)
I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.
Example:
"Congratulations! You've just won the lottery!"
Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"
I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue. But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive. Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue. It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store. Just makes you want to check out faster!
Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind. It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate. People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum. And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.
(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant. Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)
Daddy?
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag. Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)
I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.
Example:
"Congratulations! You've just won the lottery!"
Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"
I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue. But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive. Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue. It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store. Just makes you want to check out faster!
Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind. It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate. People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum. And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.
(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant. Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)
Translation:
Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.
That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.
Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.
All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.
Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag. Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)
I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.
Example:
"Congratulations! You've just won the lottery!"
Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"
I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue. But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive. Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue. It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store. Just makes you want to check out faster!
Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind. It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate. People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum. And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.
(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant. Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)
Translation:
Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.
That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.
Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.
All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.
Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.
Seek help. Professional help. Immediately. I hate to see you like this.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
Is this correct? My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.
If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned? (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
Is this correct? My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.
If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned? (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)
Government entities WILL pay this tax.
Well good, that makes it sound a little more fair. Though I am sure that what I would be paying for my part wont be as much as those downtown will be paying. But it at least helps a bit.
You know, I wish there were some way, say on a city bill, that those of us who dont mind paying extra to have certain things could contribute to paying down a tax.
For instance, the tax for the baseball stadium will end sooner if enough money is collected. It would also make it cost less over all because the debt interest wouldnt be paid for as long. So, if your City of Tulsa bill had a box that you could check where you could contribute each month to helping pay down the Ballpark debt/tax, a person could do that.
I understand that we sometimes need these types of taxes or funding mechanisms to get things done in a timely and assured manner. It cant always all be donations. Plus, say if it were for something major for the River Parks, which all of us use or that improves the city as a whole, everyone paying in at least something would only be fair. However, having something in place so that those of us who really want a particular project and wouldnt mind paying more for it, could do so, might be kind of nice. It would be a way for us to help out those who dont have as much. Even if it were just "sold" as a way to pay down the tax thus saving us all from paying more interest money, that would be incentive enough.
If the city bill had a selection of projects that could be donated to, to pay off sooner, and you could select to pay 10, 20, 50, 100, dollars a month to pay for that project. ... Might be kind of interesting to see what happens.
The other idea I have been thinking about would be that if you used a debit card, you could elect to pay a slightly higher tax that would go to your "favorite project" or priority. Whether it be streets, schools, parks, museums, whatever.
Some of us dont have huge chunks that we can donate at once. And you often need to have all the financing in play before you can start a project. But we can pay extra on each bill or at each transaction.
The intent isnt just to pay for something, but to pay down the bond or tax so that it ends sooner, thus helping out everyone, not to mention those with a tighter income. Everyone still fairly pay something for a project that is believed to help us all, but some of us can elect to pay more on the things we really want to support.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Is this correct? My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.
If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned? (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)
Only the Fed buildings are exempt.
To the "no new stadium" crowd:
Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me. Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:
1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave
Are you against development downtown or just this development? If so, for the reasons above or others? What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?
The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive. I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns. Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).
I like the Drillers and want them to stay in Tulsa.
It just feels like we have a gun to our heads.
So what are we getting? No one knows. Why does it cost so much? No one knows. Will it be beneficial to that part of Tulsa? I would think so. Would it benefit the rest of Tulsa? I hope so.
All we have now is a location, a hurried preliminary design, an architectural commitment, a construction commitment, and a $60 million dollar price-tag hanging on it ($80 million in the real world).
Even if most of this is paid for through corporate donation, will we regret not planning it better?
Are we going to slow down now and really examine this? For the price I want it to be worth every penny!
These are my questions.
My main concern among many is that there is no plan. Only a plan of how to collect money for anything. I have no trust in the city to do this ballpark right, I beleive Jenks would actually take care of it better. Tulsa could do a better job if those who cared would actually get a bigger say so.
I can see myself going to Jenks to watch games (multiple games) due to what other places will be in place. I can't say that for Tulsa because there is nothing to go on except past experiance and what the leadership has already accomplished to move forward in the last 10 years downtown.
Another thing that pops in my mind about the possible downtown location for the ballpark. This would be setting in my seat waiting to watch the next pitch in a close game and here comes another diesel on the highway hitting the jake brake or just the air horn alone [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
[br
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs.
Is that what you are grousing about; that the Fed, County, and City will pay $10 bucks a month? What is your part of that? Next time I see you I'll pay for your part...can't be more than a couple bucks.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
[br
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs.
Is that what you are grousing about; that the Fed, County, and City will pay $10 bucks a month? What is your part of that? Next time I see you I'll pay for your part...can't be more than a couple bucks.
It's a hell of a lot more than $10 a month. Drink more Kool-Aid.
The pantomimes of the pathological liars continue.
That's just one of many problems with this plan, a little reading comprehension goes a long way. Try it sometime, that is, if you even possess the cognitive capacity.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag. Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)
I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.
Example:
"Congratulations! You've just won the lottery!"
Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"
I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue. But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive. Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue. It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store. Just makes you want to check out faster!
Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind. It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate. People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum. And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.
(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant. Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)
Translation:
Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.
That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.
Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.
All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.
Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.
Seek help. Professional help. Immediately. I hate to see you like this.
Right back at ya, babe.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
Is this correct? My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.
If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned? (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)
Government entities WILL pay this tax.
Since WE THE PEOPLE are the Government, WE WILL PAY.
Except the Federal property, which the city has no authority to tax.
There is some question about whether the city can tax through a BID a state-owned property.
However, with a Democrat Governor and Atty. General, I expect they'll cooperate with they paying their share of:
The Taylor Tax.
[:X]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
To the "no new stadium" crowd:
Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me. Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:
1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave
Are you against development downtown or just this development? If so, for the reasons above or others? What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?
The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive. I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns. Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).
Sure, happy to list the main reasons I think the downtown stadium is a mistake for the City of Tulsa:
1. Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown BID for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium. She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.
The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another:
30 year loan.
With a 30 year loan, the interest builds up so that the total cost you pay is much, much more than the original amount financed. That's called:
Interest.
2) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. T
That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton. We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
3) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has functioning lights.
It has reasonably good, sanitary concessions.
It has functioning, relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
4) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
5) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within EASY walking distance for fans.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the area where Mayor Taylor wants to build a new stadium.
6) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
7) Driller Stadium is not located downwind from an oil refinery, next to a busy 6 lane expressway, or in close proximity to The 'Hood.
8) If team owner Mr. Lamson wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
Tulsa can easily find a REPLACEMENT team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved away to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts on the way out.
9) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
10) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamson really wants competition for food and drink sales from the adjacent Blue Dome or Brady entertainment Districts.
11) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making Mr. Lamson many money on the side on the construction expenditures?
Will he be a silent partner with the local Manhattan Construction cabal? Their likely JV name?
Tulsa Stadium Builders?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
To the "no new stadium" crowd:
Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me. Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:
1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave
Are you against development downtown or just this development? If so, for the reasons above or others? What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?
The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive. I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns. Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).
Sure, happy to list the main reasons I think the downtown stadium is a mistake for the City of Tulsa:
1. Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown BID for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium. She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.
The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another:
30 year loan.
With a 30 year loan, the interest builds up so that the total cost you pay is much, much more than the original amount financed. That's called:
Interest.
2) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.
Debt-free. T
That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.
Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton. We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.
Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises. He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.
3) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.
It has functioning lights.
It has reasonably good, sanitary concessions.
It has functioning, relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.
It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.
It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.
4) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.
Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.
The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.
5) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within EASY walking distance for fans.
It may NOT be either safe or free in the area where Mayor Taylor wants to build a new stadium.
6) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.
A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.
7) Driller Stadium is not located downwind from an oil refinery, next to a busy 6 lane expressway, or in close proximity to The 'Hood.
8) If team owner Mr. Lamson wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.
Tulsa can easily find a REPLACEMENT team.
When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved away to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts on the way out.
9) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.
10) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.
I'm not sure Mr. Lamson really wants competition for food and drink sales from the adjacent Blue Dome or Brady entertainment Districts.
11) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making Mr. Lamson many money on the side on the construction expenditures?
Will he be a silent partner with the local Manhattan Construction cabal? Their likely JV name?
Tulsa Stadium Builders?
Is this a contest for stating erroneous information?
The Drillers are considered one of the better and more successful AA franchises. They have won franschise of the year several times. There is certainly a very good and stable market for baseball in Tulsa.
The stadium is below the others in AA at this point. Every team we compete with has a better stadium.
You don't know much about baseball stadium concessions. Right now, the Drillers would hit a different demographic from the bars downtown -- namely families and old farts. Those who would be interested in both the bars and stadium would likely be attracted to cheaper beer at the stadium (Lamson actually has one of the better beer deals in town).
And that's where you really screw up -- you say that you don't think Lamson wants the competition from the bars. Hello -- McBear -- Lamson owns the team and wants to move downtown. It's not like the city is forcing him to move down there. He totally knows what he is getting into. That argument is probably the worsat I've ever seen from you. If you've paid attention (you haven't), there are pretty good examples of a stadium helping a downtown area.
You contradict yourself. You say that the stadium sells out with 10,000 a couple of times a year, but that the stadium, with 6,200 FIXED seats, isn't adequate (even though you admit there are only 3,000-5,000 fans at most games, which would seem to indicate more than adequate seating). Beyond that, those are fixed seats -- I haven't heard a total number, but the stadium also includes luxury boxes, bern seating, and some sort of bar.
What hood are you referring to? Brady Heights, the up and coming neighborhood? I wouldn't call the homeless shelter and jail a "hood."
Replacement teams aren't easy to find. The Texas League is one of the smallest AA leagues -- only eight teams. There is no other AA game in the region. None of the other teams, which all have new stadiums, are looking to move. You could say we would go up to AAA, but the costs probably won't work and again, there are only so many teams. http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=000429_Sp_b1klein
What oil refinery is near Greenwood? There's a whole lot of real estate in between and at least a mile of dirt from the river.
Highway access is a specific complaint the Drillers have. It isn't very good at the moment. This move puts them right on the IDL in the center of the metropolitan area.
We established last night that you haven't been downtown in 20 years (if you live in Tulsa at all), so how would you know if it's safe? http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10655
Believe it or not, people complain about the parking in the current location. People in Tulsa just complain about parking. It will be better than what they have in downtown Memphis at the moment.
Number 11 isn't based in fact at all. Can you please cut the specious statements about people in the community? I have no doubt you don't know these people, you probably don't live in Tulsa, and you are usually hilariously wrong. For the sake of discourse, quit that nonsense.
You come across as a jealous weirdo that isn't very bright.
Kind of like Medlock . . . but without the MBA . . . oh wait . . . without the job on city council . . . oh wait . . . without any knowledge of Tulsa whatsoever.
Poor FB.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
The arguments are getting harder to follow and seem pretty circular at this point. I'm for the stadium and think this has been the missing link to a more vibrant downtown the last 20 years. I wish we didn't have a gun to our heads to keep the Drillers in Tulsa, but this is the hand we are dealt.
I've also been a critic of V-2025 and the arena, but I take a look around at improvements which have been spread around Tulsa County and it's hard for me to say it's not been worth it. Community centers, improvements to police and fire, education facilities. It bordered on some broken promises on the Arkansas River, but it would appear that is sorting itself out without the additional $283mm hi-jacking.
One percieved problem I do see our city and county doing more of which brings out the most suspicion is these "sausage" projects.
They keep cramming more and more ideas into them that the price tag gets into questionable ranges.
Think about the streets: our estimate was originally about $1B, it grew to about $2B. River plan? The worse the poll numbers looked, the more projects they tried to cram in.
We are getting in a big hurry to trot out things and probably not doing our best due-dilligence and exercizing patience in considering all angles and all ideas from each part of the community.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The arguments are getting harder to follow and seem pretty circular at this point.
That's what happens when the stadium plan was passed by City Council (even if it was a 6-3 vote, all on the council appeared to be in favor) and we're getting ready to break ground. They'll say anything to either get attention or whine, because they don't know when the next opportunity will be.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
So 6.5 cents. [:O] Oh, the horror, the horror . . .
I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.
And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
So 6.5 cents. [:O] Oh, the horror, the horror . . .
I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.
And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).
[:O]
Please make your generous donation, on my behalf, to the following local foundation:
Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK 74104
[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Gold
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
So 6.5 cents. [:O] Oh, the horror, the horror . . .
I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.
And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).
[:O]
Please make your generous donation, on my behalf, to the following local foundation:
Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK 74104
[;)]
So for $6.50 or whatever it is (again, not sure you owe the tax since you aren't in Tulsa, much less downtown), you'll quit this nonsenes?
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
OTC is 700,000 square feet, the new arena is 550,000, the convention center is 200,000, the jail is just over 200,000. I don't know how big the county courthouse is but in looking at it it's not over a couple of hundred thousand square feet, neither is the library. All together you might hit two, maybe two and a half million square feet of city and county space. Call your part 20 cents a year. Five bucks should cover your personal part of the assessment easily for the next 20 years. If someone else will toss in a fiver we might just shut the Bear up about this for half a century.
And the other two cents of the assessment aren't for the stadium. The Stadium assessment is .04
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.
None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.
Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".
Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
AA is Correct.
ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.
Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.
$100,000's annually.
The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.
Add in:
Old City Hall.
New OTC City Hall.
Maxwell Convention Center.
BOK Arena.
County Court House.
County Annex Building.
Tulsa City-County Library.
It's a new Tax.
Let's name the new Tax, shall we?
How about....
The Taylor Tax?
Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.
If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.
Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed. I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.
Another reason to move out of downtown?
Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.
And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.
The rate is $.065 per square foot. Not 4.5 cents.
OTC is 700,000 square feet, the new arena is 550,000, the convention center is 200,000, the jail is just over 200,000. I don't know how big the county courthouse is but in looking at it it's not over a couple of hundred thousand square feet, neither is the library. All together you might hit two, maybe two and a half million square feet of city and county space. Call your part 20 cents a year. Five bucks should cover your personal part of the assessment easily for the next 20 years. If someone else will toss in a fiver we might just shut the Bear up about this for half a century.
And the other two cents of the assessment aren't for the stadium. The Stadium assessment is .04
ALL state, city and county buildings within the IDL will pay $0.065.
NOT 4.5 cents.
For the next 30 years.
You might want to double check you S.F. on the Jail.
The Moss Jail be humungus.
On BKL, Inc. website, they say the TulCo Jail is a 750,000 square feet facility on TWENTY-THREE acres of land.
Ouch, that BID assessment has got to hurt the Tulsa County Budget.
And, the Tulsa County property owners?
Unless Title 60 Public Trusts are miraculously exempt from a BID tax.
They are apparently EXEMPT from COMPETITIVE BIDDING.
They ESCHEW competitive bidding.
FlintCo and RooneyCo thank you.
And Thank you. And Thank you.
Life is Good if you can Eschew Competitive Bidding.
[8)]
Lets operate on 3,000,000 square feet to be safe.
3,000,000 * .04 = $120,000 per year.
Tulsa proper: 390,000. Of course county residents will chip in too, but to make the number as high as possible lets use just the city.
120,000/390000 = 31 cents per year.
Pretend that the entire amount, 6.5 cents, is assessed.
3,000,000 * .065 = $195,000
Only city residents pay:
195,000/390,000 = 50 cents.
So, at worst... that argument gets you 50 cents per year worth of sympathy. Over the course of 30 years you could get a real nice screen printed T-Shirt that proclaims your loathing for all things Tulsa. Give me your address and I'll send you the 50 cents to drop that loser argument for this year.
You know what, put me down for $1 so I don't have to hear for you the rest of this decade. Either put together a coherent a relevant argument or drop it. This is just getting sad.
The bear used to have a forked and rage filled tongue. Now it complains about 50 cents a year. Good god man, you could pick that up in spare change if you hung around the new stadium with a cup any given night.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Lets operate on 3,000,000 square feet to be safe.
3,000,000 * .04 = $120,000 per year.
Tulsa proper: 390,000. Of course county residents will chip in too, but to make the number as high as possible lets use just the city.
120,000/390000 = 31 cents per year.
Pretend that the entire amount, 6.5 cents, is assessed.
3,000,000 * .065 = $195,000
Only city residents pay:
195,000/390,000 = 50 cents.
So, at worst... that argument gets you 50 cents per year worth of sympathy. Over the course of 30 years you could get a real nice screen printed T-Shirt that proclaims your loathing for all things Tulsa. Give me your address and I'll send you the 50 cents to drop that loser argument for this year.
You know what, put me down for $1 so I don't have to hear for you the rest of this decade. Either put together a coherent a relevant argument or drop it. This is just getting sad.
The bear used to have a forked and rage filled tongue. Now it complains about 50 cents a year. Good god man, you could pick that up in spare change if you hung around the new stadium with a cup any given night.
The city of Tulsa has about 380,000 people, of the 500,000 in Tulsa County.
City residents will absorb through higher taxes their share of the city-owned SQUARE FOOTAGE of all city buildings in the IDL x $0.065 per S.F.
Then, Tulsa residents, who are ALSO Tulsa County residents, will absorb higher county taxes on their share of the county-owned SQUARE FOOTAGE of all city buildings in the IDL x $0.065 per S.F.
The private property owners within the IDL will really get directly socked. In effect, they will pay three times.
1X for the property THEY own.
2X for the City/County apportionment that as taxpayers they will eventually have to pay through higher taxes.
3 TIMES.
Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance. How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??
Feeling charitable, any generous donation you care to make on my behalf may be sent to the following local foundation:
Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK 74104
[:P]
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
The City of Tulsa will owe $217,736.60 annually on its downtown properties, according to an estimate prepared by mayoral economic adviser Mike Bunney. County taxpayers are on the hook for about $138,000 a year. That's not counting land owned by various city and county trust authorities.
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A24006
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance. How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??
Um, nothing. Liberty Towers is outside the IDL and not part of the district.
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
This would actually provide an incentive to knock down buildings for surface parking, which would reduce the assessment.
quote:
Originally posted by TeeDub
The City of Tulsa will owe $217,736.60 annually on its downtown properties, according to an estimate prepared by mayoral economic adviser Mike Bunney. County taxpayers are on the hook for about $138,000 a year. That's not counting land owned by various city and county trust authorities.
http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A24006
I wonder how much that will be offset by increased sales tax revenue that both the count and city will receive when businesses surrounding the stadium start springing up?
And does that include the new city hall? What if they have a hard time unloading all the old real estate? Hmm.. Just questions.
I still support the stadium, both the location, and the way it's being financed. I think it's the first thing in a long time that I can find minimal fault with.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance. How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??
Um, nothing. Liberty Towers is outside the IDL and not part of the district.
If I move over to Central Park Condo's, how much more will I pay?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
This would actually provide an incentive to knock down buildings for surface parking, which would reduce the assessment.
So do all property taxes. Try again.
To answer the original question--this tax is on all land and structures within the IDL. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080712_11_A11_hFivel41871
So, a city block of parking is going to measure 160' x 160', which makes 25600 sq ft of real estate. At $0.065/sq foot, that's $1664/year in total assessment.
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
The assessment would be based upon a combination of the square footage of property plus the square footage of any buildings. So surface parking would be assessed lower, but would still have an increase.
I don't think it will cause property owners to tear down their buildings simply to get a lower rate. Part of the problem in the past is that property has been relatively cheap downtown. With an increase in the basic cost of owning land downtown, property owners will need to increase the income that the property produces. I am not a business person, but I would guess that a surface parking lot has the lowest rate of return for property. By raising the tax assessment, those who are holding property without using it (eg, TulsaClub) or who are underutilizing their property will be more likely to sell. Knocking down buildings would only make sense if suddenly surface lot parking became hugely profitable downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance. How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??
Um, nothing. Liberty Towers is outside the IDL and not part of the district.
If I move over to Central Park Condo's, how much more will I pay?
$71.50/year.
$5.95/month.
I'm going to guess that the presence of the ballpark alone will increase your condo's value by at least 10x that amount annually.
Decent return on your investment.
If you're into that.
[:O]
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
The assessment would be based upon a combination of the square footage of property plus the square footage of any buildings. So surface parking would be assessed lower, but would still have an increase.
I don't think it will cause property owners to tear down their buildings simply to get a lower rate. Part of the problem in the past is that property has been relatively cheap downtown. With an increase in the basic cost of owning land downtown, property owners will need to increase the income that the property produces. I am not a business person, but I would guess that a surface parking lot has the lowest rate of return for property. By raising the tax assessment, those who are holding property without using it (eg, TulsaClub) or who are underutilizing their property will be more likely to sell. Knocking down buildings would only make sense if suddenly surface lot parking became hugely profitable downtown.
Funny you mention the Tulsa Club, cause that would be a prime site for a surface parking lot. The fact remains it would still be assessed at a lower rate than if the building were to remain standing and would generate income for the owner as a pay parking lot for a property not currently generating any income for the owner. Any way you cut it this is an incentive for tear downs and more surface parking. It certainly doesn't provide any incentive for rehabbing and renovating these underutilized buildings.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear
Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance. How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??
Um, nothing. Liberty Towers is outside the IDL and not part of the district.
If I move over to Central Park Condo's, how much more will I pay?
$71.50/year.
$5.95/month.
I'm going to guess that the presence of the ballpark alone will increase your condo's value by at least 10x that amount annually.
Decent return on your investment.
If you're into that.
[:O]
So all the homes around 15th and Yale will go down 10x?? By the way downtown is being taxed I guess I should have included all the way to Admiral and Yale also going down in value with the lose of a ball park [}:)]
The values of the homes in the vicinity of the current ballpark are based on factors that don't have a whole lot to do with Drillers Stadium--schools, vicinity to services, neighborhod feel, etc. If anything, taking ballpark traffic out of those areas will increase their value.
The values of residences downtown, however, are based on factors that will be influenced by the relocation of the Drillers--particularly entertainment options downtown and the general desirability of living somewhere exciting. It's no stretch to suggest that the value of a $150,000 downtown condominium might be increased by $715 (0.5%) because of the creation of and investment in a nearby entertainment district.
Actually, I don't think the the average condo owner at Central Park Condos will see much of a property value increase due the presence of a minor league ballpark a mile away from them...... but I bet they see some real property value increases from being so close to the new arena... benefits from a new arena the entire county's taxpayers ponied up for...
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
[br
That's just one of many problems with this plan, a little reading comprehension goes a long way. Try it sometime, that is, if you even possess the cognitive capacity.
While I am hesitant to respond to these personal attacks on my intellectual or cognitive capacity, it defies logic that a person who stands weekly in front of the city council speaking in incoherent, noncongruent and unpersuasive circles devoid of logical thought has the gall to attack another's reasoning skills.
I appologize to the Admin.
"incoherent, noncongruent and unpersuasive circles devoid of logical thought"
Can Cox Cable use that as a slogan for all it's live broadcasts on TGOV? [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by chlfan
This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?
Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.
Just curious.
The assessment would be based upon a combination of the square footage of property plus the square footage of any buildings. So surface parking would be assessed lower, but would still have an increase.
I don't think it will cause property owners to tear down their buildings simply to get a lower rate. Part of the problem in the past is that property has been relatively cheap downtown. With an increase in the basic cost of owning land downtown, property owners will need to increase the income that the property produces. I am not a business person, but I would guess that a surface parking lot has the lowest rate of return for property. By raising the tax assessment, those who are holding property without using it (eg, TulsaClub) or who are underutilizing their property will be more likely to sell. Knocking down buildings would only make sense if suddenly surface lot parking became hugely profitable downtown.
Too bad the Improvement District wasn't used as a lever to discourage surface parking. Why not discourage what is bad for downtown (surface parking) by charging a premium on wasted, non-productive space? What if they'd offered a discount for adaptive re-use of older/historic buildings, and charged extra for surface parking. Thus, McNellies would get a discount (adaptive reuse), and owners of surface parking lots would pay a premium...so that it wouldn't be as profitable to destroy entire city blocks and then just sit on it for decades wondering why downtown doesn't thrive.
I'll just keep dreaming...
I was under the impression that most of the surface parking downtown was city owned and then leased to American parking et al. Am I wrong?
1) An assessment against surface parking would not, in any way, encourage knocking down a building.
Currently, the building will be subject to an assessment. The alternative to assessing a tax against a parking lot is NOT assessing it. One would think not assessing the tax against surface parking would be a greater incentive than having tax on it.
2) Under the new guidelines the cost to a city and county resident has doubled my estimate. An astounding $1 a year.
Really? You've wasted more money than that in electricity arguing against it online.
The first thing I thought when the fees were linked to square footage was:
What will happen to Gypsy Coffeehouse in the short term?
Will this become an unequitable tax burden for them due to their square footage?
If the new ballpark would be considered in Greenwood and the property in the blocks that they are wanting to develop around it are part of that... Would it be ok to include those blocks as part of Greenwood? Say if someone were making a map and designating areas lol.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
[br
That's just one of many problems with this plan, a little reading comprehension goes a long way. Try it sometime, that is, if you even possess the cognitive capacity.
While I am hesitant to respond to these personal attacks on my intellectual or cognitive capacity, it defies logic that a person who stands weekly in front of the city council speaking in incoherent, noncongruent and unpersuasive circles devoid of logical thought has the gall to attack another's reasoning skills.
I appologize to the Admin.
Got any new BLANKsucks.com sites ?