ConocoPhillips announced today plans to build a massive R & D complex employing up to 7,000 research engineers in alternative energy... in Colorado (essentially Denver).
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20080703_49_E1_spancl76501
Corporate HQ will remain in Houston, B-Ville will be the logistics and internet center (3K people), and Colorado will be the R&D center.
quote:
There's so many reasons we chose that location," she said. "In Houston and Bartlesville, we're really running out of space."
Most of the new hires likely will come from the nearby area, although several hundred people could be moved from Houston, according to reports.
Harlow said ConocoPhillips does not expect it to change the employee head count in Bartlesville, where about 500 contractors also work with the company.
Running out of room? REALLY? We have plenty of room in between Tulsa and Bartlesville. Come and play!
More seriously, this is EXACTLY the kind of development that I would LOVE to see move to Tulsa. If ever we were going to roll out en economic development package and essentially bribe an industry, one would think this would be the type of project we would kill for.
I want announcements of large numbers of high paying jobs moving to Tulsa. State and local leaders, your job is to make it happen.
Beyond that, you want the research jobs. Those are people with advanced degrees that really contribute to a city. So many of my friends growing up had parents at the research group at Amaco. Those are people who grow roots in an area, invest in the area, go to the symphony, etc.
You have to understand that one of the main reasons that this facility will be located in Colorado is that research on renewables will be conducted there. This is in large part beacuse Colorado is a brain pool for this type of research. The National Renewable Energy Lab is also located near by.
http://www.nrel.gov/
I do understand that. I am not faulting anyone for missing this. Just pointing out that we should be doing all we can to get in this game before it's too late.
The next facility will be located in Colorado because that's were ConocoPhillips and the NREL research labs are. The oil companies moved their HQ to Houston because everyone else did. Tech jobs are in Portland because Intel built there.
We need to be fighting for these higher end jobs. With our energy expertise in place, it would make sense to fight for renewable energy jobs. Research in particular would be a fantastic area to be in.
I agree with Cannon. Those were my exact thoughts this AM when I read the paper.
The information here is imperfect because the source is seems to be proprietary, but it's useful anyway.
In 2007 (//%22http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=MDT-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D506%2F93%2FDB2007-Technology.pdf&blobheadervalue2=abinary%3B+charset%3DUTF-8&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1191378405043&ssbinary=true%22), Colorado ranked 3rd in AeA's Cyberstates study with 86 of every 1,000 jobs were with high-tech firms.
In 2005 (//%22http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=4795865%22), the same guys ranked Oklahoma 35th with 34 of every 1,000 private-sector workers in Oklahoma employed by high-tech firms. Also, our wages for hi-tech jobs are ranked 45th, something that should not be overlooked.
In addition, Colorado has an estimated 22,000 hi-tech jobs working directly in renewable energy.
You are right, CF, state and local leaders should try to get thse kinds of jobs in Oklahoma. But, how? Where do you begin?
Bribes, i.e., cash and tax incentives may not do it. I'd like to think that that kind of offer is a last resort. Companies are movable. If you bribe them into Oklahoma, what's to keep them from bouncing out when the benefits run out?
On the other hand, education is certainly a key. We can, and we do, train young folks for hi-tech jobs in the petroleum industry and in other sectors. We can and probably should continue to invest in higher ed in order to keep the training as broad and inclusive as possible. We'll need to, IMO, because when school's out those kids tend to gravitate to where jobs are abundant, the pay is greatest, and the lifestyle is most appealing...and that's not necessarily Tulsa.
I'm not down on my city or my state, but if we're lagging anywhere, it's in keeping this place maintained, and also adding real amenities that make it more livable. How many of you all used to clean your place up before you went out on a date? You never know how the things are going to turn out, so why take any chances? Face it, compared to a lot of places, we live in a filthy apartment and we ain't got no air-conditioning, let alone cable.
Sure, Oklahoma's got the potential to be a luxury penthouse with a million dollar view; a real swinging bachelor pad. But we're terrible at housework. We've flat-out stopped investing in those things that make our lives more livable.
I can't understand why it's this way. When you look at the three assets: companies, employees, and infrastructure, two of them are mobile. You can spend a fortune on trying to improve in these areas and still lose it all in the end. The only fixed asset our leaders have to work with is the ground on which they sit.
So, it really honks me off when our State legislators opt for a paultry tax cut instead of choosing to fix our roads and bridges. And when guys like Christianson offer up a teeny, "do-nothing" streets package as an alternative to a bold package that might just get us back on the right track.
Things like the arena and ballpark are probably the right idea, but in the wrong sequence. That's cherry-on-top stuff. There is so much more you can do to make this town more livable first, like improving mass transit and changing the zoning code to allow for more walkable developent. Great cities have this, and we'll need it too if we want to be great.
That sinking feeling sets in when one must agree with the fodder of all threads.
I want to drag this thread back from the brink because this subject is very, very important to Tulsa. Of course we should have landed this new facility. But Tulsa is a study in dumb luck and missed opportunities.
When Mr. Little suggests we didn't land it because we need to improve our "mass transit and change the zoning code to allow for more walkable developent," he is getting the cart before the horse.
I believe that if we want business, we have to "ask for it."
I want to know what agent or employee of the City of Tulsa made a presentation to ConnocoPhilips and asked for this business?
I'm afraid the answer is "no one."
We were too busy getting the cart before the horse. We were too busy developing a (take your pick) stadium, instead of developing income for citizens so that they can afford baseball tickets.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I want to know what agent or employee of the City of Tulsa made a presentation to ConnocoPhilips and asked for this business?
I'm afraid the answer is "no one."
+1
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Business is done by people, and it's people who create, attract, and manipulate businesses.
Cities must be run just like a business with the goal of making a profit, not by taxing their citizenry, but by attracting a loyal clientele that continue to find value in the product, and are not fearful of being penalized for the future ambitions of the city.
Unfortunately we have broken nearly every promise associated with taxes we have ever made. We are unable to retire old taxes, and continuously find reasons to create new ones. That's a big stain to hide under the carpet!
We can fix it if we want to.
Tulsa needs a good sales force. Smart commissioned sales people armed with the knowledge of everything that Tulsa has to offer.
If only we had a chamber that could be focused on commerce...
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
If only we had a chamber that could be focused on commerce...
They are. It's just that they are more focused on commerce between members. Only a select few engage in activities to promote and attract new companies to Tulsa.
They need to shift gears and use the brilliance, force, and ingenuity of the entire membership to attract new businesses.
There are hundreds successful entrepreneurial members of the Tulsa Chamber who each have dozens of out of state vendors and/or clients. Imagine what would happen if each of these members made it a point to invite at least one CEO to visit Tulsa. We could call it CEO to CEO, or CEO Squared. Here I'll make a quick logo.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2649917469_aa8669ea58.jpg?v=0)
Now someone go make that a campaign!
Gas,
That's a killer idea.
I'd also like to propose, since it's difficult and expensive to fly down another company's CEO, that business leaders go on a letter campaign to their suppliers/partners/etc about doing business in Tulsa. The letters should discuss the ease of doing business, the affordable office/living prices, etc. Plus, the benefit of lower shipping/transport costs of doing business in the same town.
We could even gather these letters and make them part of a larger booklet that is sent to the executive teams of larger corporation via the City of Tulsa.
How about an aggressive media campaign focusing on Energy Industry Trade Journals?
And a paid city contractor whose business it is to know what Energy companies are expanding, knows the board of directors of those companies, and knows what they are looking for in a new operation.
Back to basics Tulsa. Give us good jobs with good pay and 95% of the rest of it will fall into place.
Absolutely!
While I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a sales force (and I hope that is being done), we also need to remember the supply side. High tech companies need high tech laborers. I think we are working on addressing that with growing area colleges, but it is also a quality of life issue.
We have 5% unemployment, any company that wants to move a significant work force here will either have to initiate a small build up, or recruit. As the recent departure of a small tech company illustrates, recruiting to Tulsa is not always easy. Thus, the "cart" may be as important as the horse.
IMHO, both items need to happen congruently. If we show that we are making progress towards being a shiny green city, we can attract and/or retain the educate young workforce we need to thrive. At least, IMHO.
I hope the community leaders are putting (at least) as much thought into this as we are...
We have the critical mass of Energy Industry to build on. We have Energy Industry good will. While we need to grow these other attributes Cannon, there is enough here to go after the Energy Industry right now. We don't need another excuse why we can't go for it today.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a sales force (and I hope that is being done), we also need to remember the supply side. High tech companies need high tech laborers. I think we are working on addressing that with growing area colleges, but it is also a quality of life issue.
We have 5% unemployment, any company that wants to move a significant work force here will either have to initiate a small build up, or recruit. As the recent departure of a small tech company illustrates, recruiting to Tulsa is not always easy. Thus, the "cart" may be as important as the horse.
IMHO, both items need to happen congruently. If we show that we are making progress towards being a shiny green city, we can attract and/or retain the educate young workforce we need to thrive. At least, IMHO.
I hope the community leaders are putting (at least) as much thought into this as we are...
well, even if unemployment went up, it doesn't mean that there are QUALIFIED people. My company constantly has 20-30 open positions, but there is never anyone qualified. The high tech work force in this town is actually pretty small, as evidenced by the headhunters constantly bugging me and my wife about jobs. I can also attest from my wife's experience that some of these stupid companies don't know when to pull the trigger when they've got a good one....they try to create a sense of over supply when in fact they desparately need people. Hence several of them calling AFTER she took a sweet offer to try and get her to take their lame jobs.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
We have the critical mass of Energy Industry to build on. We have Energy Industry good will. While we need to grow these other attributes Cannon, there is enough here to go after the Energy Industry right now. We don't need another excuse why we can't go for it today.
there is not a qualified work force here to fill the jobs the energy sector needs right now. I think you have a pretty backwards view of the energy sector.
the energy sector here in town cherry picks from each other as it is. If you are a good geologist or petroleum engineer you can name your price in this town. the sad thing is companies can't keep doing that forever. something has to give and that could mean more companies moving away because there are just nothing but roughnecks to pick from.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
While I agree wholeheartedly with the need for a sales force (and I hope that is being done), we also need to remember the supply side. High tech companies need high tech laborers. I think we are working on addressing that with growing area colleges, but it is also a quality of life issue.
We have 5% unemployment, any company that wants to move a significant work force here will either have to initiate a small build up, or recruit. As the recent departure of a small tech company illustrates, recruiting to Tulsa is not always easy. Thus, the "cart" may be as important as the horse.
IMHO, both items need to happen congruently. If we show that we are making progress towards being a shiny green city, we can attract and/or retain the educate young workforce we need to thrive. At least, IMHO.
I hope the community leaders are putting (at least) as much thought into this as we are...
True!
Downtown should be transformed into a high tech instructional center and an innovation incubator. Would do wonders for mixed uses in east end.
For what it is worth...I am positive Phillips did not solicit this project. Houston did not end up with it either. They bought an old industrial facility in Boulder County, and decided to build there. I wouldn't underestimate the factor that is the proximity of this facility to the Colorado Shale. I guarantee what they wanted was close access to that difficult, but untapped source.
Any business looking to relocate, first will look at the demographics of the area. Tulsa may have some good colleges, but if the Elementary, Middle & Highschool students are not on grade level, high drop out rates, this is the very first thing that will turn a prospective business away. Schools, Taxes & Incentives, home buying,& general up keep of the city as a whole are key eye openers. The overall comprehensive plan for Tulsa is really in need of a massive change, & I'm glad to see its being done.
Per the schools... studies on this note are all over the board. They take different things into account so the picture is not entirely clear. For one thing, transfers from one school to another count as a drop out - and Tulsa is an open enrollment district. So the same kid can "drop out" a couple times from Tulsa schools and still graduate.
Other districts are not open enrollment. Dropping out either means you moved cities or you really really dropped out. So view the numbers with some suspicion.
In any event, Tulsa is in line with other cities we wish to emulate. Albuquerque and Portland both have high-tech industries (Intel), Austin is renowned for high tech jobs. All of those location have similar graduation rates to Tulsa. Denver has a significantly worse graduation rate, as does Oklahoma city.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm#grad
http://www.kktv.com/schools/headlines/17224639.html
So I'd say that is not the key element. Something I'd love to see worked on, but there is only so much the community can do. Most of the work of getting a kid to graduate is on the parents, and if the parents don't give a sh!t... then a 50/50 shot is about all you have. Sad, but true.
Education is a big key to attracting future hightech/research jobs to Tulsa. OKC is able to do it in the medical/biotech sector because of the OUHSC and because both OU and UCO (large comprehensive state-funded universities) are within the OKC Metro. Tulsa doesn't have those resources for that particular field but we CAN be a player for other hightech operations, including those dealing with energy and aviation. Getting in on the renewable energy bandwagon would be wise as well, and I think we'll see some of our local companies start to do that.
In the mean time making OSU-Tulsa a larger, more comprehensive university should be a higher priority as well as expanding OU-Tulsa. That gives the city potentially two public universities, one downtown and one midtown, that could essentially work together to offer different programs i.e. OSU-Tulsa more in the way of business, technology, and engineering while OU-Tulsa could offer more in the way of science and medical programs (like they already do).
Interesting city: Voted #3 in the country
They have far less state income tax than us, and it is a Flat Tax. Since it was established as a flat tax it has been going down. They also have less sales tax and a history of sales tax accountability.
The residential taxes are also low at 1%.
18 to 1 student/teacher ratio in schools.
For population 25 years and over in Louisville
High school or higher: 96.3%
Bachelor's degree or higher: 59.9%
Graduate or professional degree: 22.3%
Unemployed: 2.0%
Mean travel time to work: 22.3 minutes
Not very diverse.
(http://pics.city-data.com/craces/2895.png)
twizzler, if we are going to nitpick on the city, then OKC has very little education as OU is in Norman.
Louisville is right next to metro Denver (and in the Combined MSA area), though not the city proper. For all practical purposes, Denver and Boulder are one metro area now anyway. I used Denver because when considering an area generally stats are available for the largest school district - which in that area is Denver. Tulsa could point to it's magnet schools, Owasso, Union, Jenks, BA... or it's non-failing TPS schools.
Anyway, for education level - Tulsa is much better than most people give it credit for:
http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/pages/13.html
Ranking 19 out of 50 when looking at large metro areas (otherwise Iowa City, Stillwater, Fayetteville, College Station etc. win for obvious reasons). We are above KC, Wichita, Sacramento, Dallas, Pheonix, Chicaco.... Denver ranked #14, I doubt that was the deciding factor and certainly we were not far enough back in the pack to not make an argument.
And not that I'm saying we shouldn't seek higher education rates in Tulsa.
- - -
I'm not saying Tulsa was the clear choice or that we *should* have been able to land this. I'm simply saying opportunities like this should be pursued. Tulsa has a relatively highly educated populace, a low cost of living, a 4 season climate with mild winters, and many other attributes to sell to business - cheap labor force, growing economy, central location, etc.
Any one thing is not a bust, we can lose many of the fights. But I want to be in them. Winning just one this large would be HUGE for Tulsa.
I just want to see Tulsa step it up. High income, tech jobs would certainly help.
Looks like most of the population of Louisville drives into Denver for work, so the city was prime for a big business to move in.
Lets see:
Lower taxes (saving millions of $).
Responsible spending.
Lower unemployment insurance rates.
Higher education.
An employed population with an oppressive commute.
Almost zero crime.
Schools are between 28% and 50% above the national average for test scores.
Rather than moaning about the decision, why don't we use cities like this as role models. Sure this is a small city, but the statistics are why the decision was made. This was a business decision, based on the fact that Louisville, CO would cost Phillips less, produce more, and provide a workforce capable of the jobs offered. A responsible taxation, education, and economic development record make for an impressive resume.
112 golf courses within 30 minutes doesn't hurt either!
Well, let's see if we can come up with 500 more reasons why we have to be second rate. After all second rate is less demanding. Our life here is kind of soft and lazy. More competition means change and more work.
Inteller, I went to art school, I know next to nothing about the energy business. But, I'm not surprised that local companies cherry pick from local companies instead of hiring from outside the area.
I have looked for universal principles that might apply here. The only investment I have in energy is the disappointment that I feel when I see what has happened to my hometown during the course of my life.
Now, honestly, as much as I would like it, I do not expect Tulsa to change course, get focused and do much of anything. Cities like people are consistent.
I would expect that if anything along these lines actually happens it will come from the private sector. It doesn't take a whole lot of fired up individuals to make something happen. Even one well placed advocate for Tulsa's energy sector could make a difference.
There is also the matter of the local old money families that "have to make money on the deal" for anything to happen in Tulsa. Maybe that's like figuring in the cost of mob payments to do business in New York. Just the cost of doing business in T-town.
Serious new money might change the equation one day. New money is so much bigger than old money ever was.
Anyway, my working life is largely behind me. But I sure would like to see Tulsa sparkle again.
In related news...
NATCO to move R&D from Tulsa (//%22http://www.forbes.com/businesswire/feeds/businesswire/2008/07/15/businesswire20080715006555r1.html%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
In related news...
NATCO to move R&D from Tulsa (//%22http://www.forbes.com/businesswire/feeds/businesswire/2008/07/15/businesswire20080715006555r1.html%22)
Super. Thanks for the boost.
Ouch. The Great Tulsa Brain Drain continues apace.
What the hell are we doing to try and stop this!
Argh. I can't blame the companies if the city isn't working to meet their needs. Pisses me off.
Could just be perception, but still. This is EXACTLY what we WANT in Tulsa. MAYOR TAYLOR, are you listening? You've brought in a couple call centers while R&D, tech companies and engineering jobs leave town. Please help.
Anybody got a good contact email for some of the folks that might be able to make a difference? If so, have you been sending these links? It's all I can suggest.
This is an edit so I don't sound like I'm being a complaining little girly man. I'm afraid my attempts to be constructive in this field would be lacking. All I can think to do is tell on 'em. "Madam Mayor, look at what their doing." It's all I've got.
I can think of several good reasons to locate in NE OK instead of the Denver area:
1)Exisiting C-P operations in Ponca and B'Ville which consist of a large refinery, IT and accounting offices, AND a large R & D campus on the west side of Bartlesville.
2)Locating somewhere around Ramona offers equal growth opportunity to B'ville, Tulsa, Owasso, Collinsville, Skiatook, and possibly even Nowata. I'm trying to think of living areas within a 30 to 45 minute commute. That would be a fairly nice hub and spoke arrangement. Boat loads of space to expand in that area. Build light rail running from Downtown Tulsa to B'Ville with a major station at the C-P facility.
3)Natural resources, FAIK, within a 250 mile radius our region can support a variety of agriculture stocks for alt liquid fuels, huge natural gas reserves, and the sugar industry could be revived along the gulf coast for ethanol.
4)There are pretty good energy programs at TU, OSU, and OU. Could be a draw with KU and KSU as well. Create job demand and rewarding income, and more people will go into a field. Willing to bet T. Boone would pull his pants down to fund more professorships in energy for OSU, given the proper motivation.
Now, here's probably why they picked Denver-
1)Front Range Colorado is easy to recruit to, even if they do have a bad smog problem and real estate is more expensive there than here. You can't beat the scenery and climate.
2)Smog problem- Colorado has been forward-thinking in reducing their smog problems by providing incentives to large fossil fuel users to go with alternatives. Case-in-point which I'm familiar with: The state of Colorado gave a large construction company who burned in excess of 5000 gal of diesel a day in their equipment tax incentives to burn bio-diesel. They built their own bio-d plant and sell off the excess they don't use.
3)Already has a reputation as a high-tech and research mecca. That really got a push in the 1990's when tax and property sitations in California caused lots of high-tech to relocate anywhere from Ft. Collins to Col. Springs. IOW- they are seen already as an alt-fuel friendly state.
Oklahoma has been pretty good to the energy industry over the years, somehow these folks in Houston have forgotten. [V]
You all keep talking about streets... Stop it!!! it's maddening. Sure the streets suck here but they can be fixed in my lifetime. However Tulsa has a bigger problem and that is there is nothing to do... You can't fix that overnight so Tulsa should have started working on that in the 90's. As for me it's too late. Anything you do now to fix this place won't be avilable for me to enjoy until I'm too old to do so. That is why I'm leaving and going to a place that has what I'm looking for now...
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
However Tulsa has a bigger problem and that is there is nothing to do...
???
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
You all keep talking about streets... Stop it!!! it's maddening. Sure the streets suck here but they can be fixed in my lifetime. However Tulsa has a bigger problem and that is there is nothing to do... You can't fix that overnight so Tulsa should have started working on that in the 90's. As for me it's too late. Anything you do now to fix this place won't be avilable for me to enjoy until I'm too old to do so. That is why I'm leaving and going to a place that has what I'm looking for now...
Bye, Bye. Have a wonderful time/life.
It's odd, though, 'cause I find plenty of fun things to do and most times don't need to cross a curb.
I'd like to know what there is to do here that doesn't require me to drive my car all over creation. I currently live on Cherry Street. Lets see... There are some bars, not my thing; some restaurants, some antique stores... That's about it. Other than that I'd have to drive somewhere. I can't walk out my door and go shopping, to a movie or much of anything else. There's no public area for me to take my lunch to and hang out. The selection is horrible. Also with so many cars careening down 15th it's hard to cross, plus, unless you're there at lunch time you'll be just about the only person walking anywhere. I don't consider that walkable since part of it being walkable is the safety you get from the number of other people walking too. As it is I'm just ripe for a mugging with no one to see what happened.
Not into bars? Try going to one of the dozen community theatre events going on around town. Or the PAC. Or festivals.
Not your cup of tea? Try the numerous art galleries around town. Or museums. We have enough galleries and travelling art shows that you really could make a weekly thing of it and keep things fresh.
You're right that you can't walk everywhere in this city. There are very few cities where you can get everything you need just by walking and even in New York people still have to take taxis and mass transit. But there are alternative modes of transportation.
I live within walking distance of TU and can easily get cheap-to-free entertainment (theatre, sports, art, lectures). I work within biking distance of downtown and can easily get to my place of employment. I have plenty of friends so that I can carpool to the AMC movie theatre.
Sorry, but I can't empathize with your pain...
Well, this thread has derailed.
Might want to make another post wagebo. Anyways to answer your rant...you can easily walk from your place to utica square with ease. You may not like to drive, but you can get to anwyhere in tulsa in about 10-15 minutes with plenty of parking, but I'm sorry you have problems walking in one of the most walkable areas of the ciyt[8)]
Problem is I've been to all the art museums, both of them, not much going on there... next the PAC... yes if I felt like dressing up and spending the weekend going to show I could but then I wouldn't be able to work. I work Fri, Sat and Sun at night. I'm a nurse. It would be nice to have something to do during the other 4 days of the week, you know when I live my life. I moved to Tulsa 2 years ago almost to the day, Aug. 11, 2206. I moved back here from Norman/OKC where I went to school for ~11 years. I came back here b/c when I left Tulsa it was a great place to live and there were things to do all the time. Things have certainly changed and not in a good way. Tulsa could also benefit from having some institutions of higher education that don't cost 30K a semester and that offer something more than a bachelors. The limited selection here make me mour for Tulsa b/c I've always felt so highly of this place.
You think I'm just bashing it. But it's only out of love for a place I once called home and had hopped to do once I got out of school.
It is rare that I can't find something to do, even on a weeknight. There are still sporting events, lectures all around town, art galleries, and all of these things are improving year-to-year.
I was still in high school 11 years ago, so I can't say how much has improved since then. However, I can tell you that based on my experience being an adult that things have certainly improved in the past 6 years. Even as recent as two years ago, I was questioning my decision to stay in Tulsa. But as time continues, I see things improving, albeit slowly. Sometimes painstakingly slow.
Well you think I've derailed the discussion buts it's all part and parcel... Just like me, no one wants to come here to work and businesses know that. They look at what this place has to offer and outside of a a booming church market there isn't much. People who have invested years and lots of money in their own education want more out of life than this city can offer at this time. Maybe things will change but until that's done Tulsa will continue to miss those opportunities.
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
Well you think I've derailed the discussion buts it's all part and parcel... Just like me, no one wants to come here to work and businesses know that. They look at what this place has to offer and outside of a a booming church market there isn't much. People who have invested years and lots of money in their own education want more out of life than this city can offer at this time. Maybe things will change but until that's done Tulsa will continue to miss those opportunities.
Ah, now we get to the bottom of why this rant was directed to this thread.
Hate to tell you this, but you suffer from a form of myopia that will likely make other places look sucky as well after awhile.
A city is what you make of it. Maybe you aren't cut out for an oasis on the prairie. Hit the mountains or a coastal area, those places get boring after awhile as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
Well you think I've derailed the discussion buts it's all part and parcel... Just like me, no one wants to come here to work and businesses know that. They look at what this place has to offer and outside of a a booming church market there isn't much. People who have invested years and lots of money in their own education want more out of life than this city can offer at this time. Maybe things will change but until that's done Tulsa will continue to miss those opportunities.
Ah, now we get to the bottom of why this rant was directed to this thread.
Hate to tell you this, but you suffer from a form of myopia that will likely make other places look sucky as well after awhile.
A city is what you make of it. Maybe you aren't cut out for an oasis on the prairie. Hit the mountains or a coastal area, those places get boring after awhile as well.
And I know that out of experience - I lived in Houston (Metro population about 5 million) for three years. I was bored after just one. I was a lot younger, too.
I would bet, if you have family interests here and don't have a better half that has a vested interest elsewhere that you'll return. I did. All that 'fun stuff' just becomes boring after a while. Especially when you start to factor in 90 minute commute times, pollution that makes Tulsa's Ozone problem look like a miniscule factory and the threat of drive-by shootings, and hearing at least one gunshot every night before you fall asleep. But if all that sounds like fun to you, then by all means, don't come back.
There is one difference though... people from around here, and other places, DO consider moving to places like Austin, Denver, Seattle, etc. but do young, creative class, people from other places consider Tulsa? If not, why not?
Actually had someone in another forum when they saw my post and my location saying I was from Tulsa, mention that they had had several "headhunter" offers from companies in Tulsa trying to get him to move here. He said "no thanks, wouldn't want to live in Tulsa". I didnt ask, but I bet an offer from a similar company in one of those other cities would more likely get a yes.
It still seems to me that Tulsa has a bad "image" problem. Especially as far as the young, highly educated, YP, creative class, worker types go. And part of that is based in reality.
But then I go back to the fact that Tulsa really is a small city compared to those other places and, regardless of how it happened, we dont have the oil companies to bail us out anymore. So we cant expect TOO much from ourselves. But we can and should be doing a lot better imo.
We still have a lot of positives going for us. And the image problem does need to be addressed. One thing about "image" and "reality". As a man thinketh... or in this case could it be...As a city thinketh?
For instance, Tulsa shouldnt just have commercials that show Philbrook, the indian statue in front of Gilcrease, the art-deco, Utica Square and all that kind of "boring old people" crap. Nice to have all those things, and yes some young people like them too, but they dont create a hip image, or even a stand out attractive one compared to other cities.
I would like to see commercials, magazine adverts, websites, etc. showing images of D-Fest, Tulsa Tough, people biking running and rollerblading playing soccer and vball along the river, a night shot up the canyon of Boston Ave, inside the glass blowing studio, some art galleries, the new arena, some cool graffiti art murals. Show Tulsa as a fresh, funky, lively, hip, urban, city.
Illusion is very powerful, even in the face of a reality that isnt all its cracked up to be. (its not as though the city is all Philbrook and art-deco either) Funny thing though, once people start to actually have the image of Tulsa being a certain way, you will likely find that Tulsa will become more that way. Perception and illusion can continually reinforce and nurture what exists. Good, bad or indifferent. Fun or boring.
This isnt a cure all, but its a comparatively simple and easy thing the city should be doing that would go a looooooooong way towards creating an attractive, and competitive, image for our city.
It may help bring people in but they won't stay... I've been here two years, the length of my contract with SFH, and here I am already planning to leave. I had those images of Tulsa from growing up here. All through college I told my friends that if I was going to live in Oklahoma it would be in Tulsa. Tulsa was, in my mind, a better place than OKC. I hate the artificiality of Bricktown. I felt like I was expected to like it b/c it was at least something... The expectation made me automatically hate it. Plus just like Tulsa's ideas it doesn't include realworld needs along with entertainment.
Tulsa is a cleaner looking city than OKC but that isn't saying much. I had fun here in highschool and tried to make a go of it. Once the glitter wore off I was ready to leave. It only took a couple of months. I'd been lurking here for a while and thought Tulsa was going to do something with its river, but that didn't pan out. I gambled and lost and I think luring others here with unfulfilled/able promises of a wonderful place to live will only result in a lot of unhappy YP's that will just leave once their signing bonus contract has run out.
That isn't a prospect that future employers look forward to. Training new people is expensive. If you can't keep people b/c they hate living where you are located you either have to move or not move there in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
It may help bring people in but they won't stay... I've been here two years, the length of my contract with SFH, and here I am already planning to leave. I had those images of Tulsa from growing up here. All through college I told my friends that if I was going to live in Oklahoma it would be in Tulsa. Tulsa was, in my mind, a better place than OKC. I hate the artificiality of Bricktown. I felt like I was expected to like it b/c it was at least something... The expectation made me automatically hate it. Plus just like Tulsa's ideas it doesn't include realworld needs along with entertainment.
Tulsa is a cleaner looking city than OKC but that isn't saying much. I had fun here in highschool and tried to make a go of it. Once the glitter wore off I was ready to leave. It only took a couple of months. I'd been lurking here for a while and thought Tulsa was going to do something with its river, but that didn't pan out. I gambled and lost and I think luring others here with unfulfilled/able promises of a wonderful place to live will only result in a lot of unhappy YP's that will just leave once their signing bonus contract has run out.
That isn't a prospect that future employers look forward to. Training new people is expensive. If you can't keep people b/c they hate living where you are located you either have to move or not move there in the first place.
Aye....
Wagebo...
Cry me a river...! you don't like it get the hell out....... or go pay a shrink and cry on his shoulder..
You sound like a little girl. Waaa waaa waaaaa!
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
There is one difference though... people from around here, and other places, DO consider moving to places like Austin, Denver, Seattle, etc. but do young, creative class, people from other places consider Tulsa? If not, why not?
Part of that may be "bigger city" syndrome. Just the fact of the city being larger is attractive and mistaken for being a panacea to the person's problem. "I can't find anything that I want to do", "I can't find employment in my specialty", etc. Regardless of the realities, some people will argue that a larger city will offer more opportunities. In some cases it might, and in some cases it just raises more problems.
I considered the move to Austin, and you know what I said when I went there for a vacation? "I can't get anywhere in a decent amount of time! I'm always stuck in traffic", "The music here isn't my cup of tea", etc.
It is rare that one will ever find that perfect place that suits you perfectly, so when you do find it stay there. I wish you luck
wagebo, but I will humbly disagree with your assessment of the city.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
It may help bring people in but they won't stay... I've been here two years, the length of my contract with SFH, and here I am already planning to leave. I had those images of Tulsa from growing up here. All through college I told my friends that if I was going to live in Oklahoma it would be in Tulsa. Tulsa was, in my mind, a better place than OKC. I hate the artificiality of Bricktown. I felt like I was expected to like it b/c it was at least something... The expectation made me automatically hate it. Plus just like Tulsa's ideas it doesn't include realworld needs along with entertainment.
Tulsa is a cleaner looking city than OKC but that isn't saying much. I had fun here in highschool and tried to make a go of it. Once the glitter wore off I was ready to leave. It only took a couple of months. I'd been lurking here for a while and thought Tulsa was going to do something with its river, but that didn't pan out. I gambled and lost and I think luring others here with unfulfilled/able promises of a wonderful place to live will only result in a lot of unhappy YP's that will just leave once their signing bonus contract has run out.
That isn't a prospect that future employers look forward to. Training new people is expensive. If you can't keep people b/c they hate living where you are located you either have to move or not move there in the first place.
Aye....
Wagebo...
Cry me a river...! you don't like it get the hell out....... or go pay a shrink and cry on his shoulder..
You sound like a little girl. Waaa waaa waaaaa!
Bricktown artificial? What the hell does that mean? What would make a warehouse district more "authentic"?
He/she could join up with the Whinealot Tribe, they make camp on the banks of the Crymea River.
I always get a kick out of people who are situationally unhappy and try (unsuccessfully) to make the rest of us feel like a bunch of guilty boobs for not making the city more to their liking.
I have to say I personally like Tulsa. It has enough of just about everything I need. It has treated me quite well in my career thats for sure. Especially for being a smaller city. Though I could indeed make almost twice the money in some place like Dallas. Basically I am just attatched to Tulsa, its home for me and generations of my family.
The one big negative for me, and I hate to get personal lol, is that its always seemed to be a bad place to date. Especially in my age group. I may find someone to go on a date with, once every couple years... That sucks lol. And its not as though the population is really expanding in the single, professional, creative class, market here. Perhaps I am just an ugly loser that nobody would want anyway. It obviously has to be a possibility lol. Its either me, or eeeverybody else lol. Or I chalk a good portion of it up to this city not being attractive to others like myself.
Tulsa would be a fantastic city to live in if you had a partner. Sucks if you dont and your the kind of person who really wants a relationship.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Tulsa shouldnt just have commercials that show Philbrook, the indian statue in front of Gilcrease, the art-deco, Utica Square and all that kind of "boring old people" crap. Nice to have all those things, and yes some young people like them too, but they dont create a hip image, or even a stand out attractive one compared to other cities.
I would like to see commercials, magazine adverts, websites, etc. showing images of D-Fest, Tulsa Tough, people biking running and rollerblading playing soccer and vball along the river, a night shot up the canyon of Boston Ave, inside the glass blowing studio, some art galleries, the new arena, some cool graffiti art murals. Show Tulsa as a fresh, funky, lively, hip, urban, city.
This ^^^^.
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
This ^^^^.
[/quote]
Aye
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Bricktown artificial? What the hell does that mean? What would make a warehouse district more "authentic"?
The lime green flume ride 12ft sub-grade does tend to look a bit out of place.
true that...
As for being a whiner... I'm just letting you know what disappoints me about this city. If I just said, "I hate it here." You'd be all, "But why? Tulsa is great." Believe me the only crying I'll be doing is for the dead and dying I'll take care of this weekend. As for not liking what I have to say. I guess the truth really does hurt. Maybe you should open your eyes and ears and actually pay attention to what someone has to say. I definately fit the demographic you're looking to attract here. Could pay to listen.
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
true that...
As for being a whiner... I'm just letting you know what disappoints me about this city. If I just said, "I hate it here." You'd be all, "But why? Tulsa is great." Believe me the only crying I'll be doing is for the dead and dying I'll take care of this weekend. As for not liking what I have to say. I guess the truth really does hurt. Maybe you should open your eyes and ears and actually pay attention to what someone has to say. I definately fit the demographic you're looking to attract here. Could pay to listen.
Or maybe you could look at your world with solution-oriented, instead of, problem-oriented vision.
As for what I'd like to see Tulsa's DT become... Someone on another thread here brought up Seattle City Center. I'm also thinking Union Square in SF. Big box stores but not in the box. They should be at street level at the base of taller buildings. Mixed Use. Housing located nearby, above. Condos in a building with 6-10 floors, underground parking. Street level has services like grocery, coffee, drug store, restaurant... You know a place where one can live without having to go anywhere else. As for me leaving... It's a done deal. I'll be travel nursing by the end of the month. Maybe I will come back but I doubt any of local hospitals could afford me.
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
true that...
I definately fit the demographic you're looking to attract here.
Maybe so but not the attitude. We have enough negativity here. You could take the time to try to better the things you hate here...you're leaving however.
Now if you've actually done things to make it better here other than make your own living then I take it back but all I hear from you is whiney titty baby crap.
Take examples from others like Carlton Place, Recycle Michael, Waterboy, etc. They're trying. Hell even AA takes part in the goings on here to try to make it better.
If all you do is post to ***** then you suck and you deserve worse. If you've attempted to fix the problems you've observed then kudos and thanks for trying. It's all the rest of us can do.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
true that...
As for being a whiner... I'm just letting you know what disappoints me about this city. If I just said, "I hate it here." You'd be all, "But why? Tulsa is great." Believe me the only crying I'll be doing is for the dead and dying I'll take care of this weekend. As for not liking what I have to say. I guess the truth really does hurt. Maybe you should open your eyes and ears and actually pay attention to what someone has to say. I definately fit the demographic you're looking to attract here. Could pay to listen.
Or maybe you could look at your world with solution-oriented, instead of, problem-oriented vision.
Unfortnately I'm not rich otherwise I'd be building those condos and other things I'd like to see. I did have a Ski the Tulsa Hills idea of building one of those indoor ski slopes. Would be a great addition to Bells. If only they were looking to rebuild somewhere close to downtown.
But see, that's the great thing! You don't have to be rich to make a difference. You were looking for something to do? There are tons of municipal meetings... [;)]
I hear you on the money front though. I could only imagine the good I'd do if I won the lottery... that is if I played.
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
Maybe I will come back but I doubt any of local hospitals could afford me.
No ego issues, here.
No ego at all... I take it you've never worked for any of the local hospitals...
quote:
Originally posted by wagebo
No ego at all... I take it you've never worked for any of the local hospitals...
Pretty close to someone who has/does and who will be doing some travel nursing in the not-too-distant future.