I don't live in Tulsa anymore (hopefully will be back soon though) so I haven't been able to keep with what is going on with the river since the County voted down the last proposal. Are we still getting low water dams, and if so when are they starting construction? I would really like to see Tulsa have a system of dams with LOCKS like they have in OKC so boats could ply the waters between Sand Springs and Bixby. If I remember correctly they didn't want to do locks which I believe would be a HUGE mistake. Any new information?? What about a new proposal??
We ostensibly have funding for two dams. Locks, I don't believe so. I was not aware that there were locks for boats to pass throuhg on the OK River in OKC. Only thing I'm aware of is the rowers and recreational boats pretty much stay within the confines of a couple of LWD's. Someone else feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Only times I've seen the OK River lately have been for rowing regattas.
I thought I read that they have some sort of lock system to move boats through. Before they built it I was told they would.
Yes, they are expensive and the sandy river means recurring maintenance but building our dams without them drastically reduces the lakes' potential. Imagine putting in at Sand Springs and stopping at entertainment venues all the way to Jenks ala the Guadalupe river in Austin.
WB- that wasn't you out kayaking on Sunday between 45th or so and I-44 was it? I was riding my motorcycle down Riverside about 5pm or so and all the emergency units were rolling and parking at various points along the river so I'm thinking "river rescue of some sort".
I crossed the I-44 bridge, there were two cops with binoculars on the bridge looking north, I passed one of the TFD boats being towed across the bridge with sirens blaring. About that time I spotted the first kayak, then after turning down Elwood saw the other two. There were firefighters on the east bank who looked like they might be talking to a couple of the kayakers.
Sure was a big production. There was nothing on the news about it so I figured an uninformed concerned citizen had phoned in the kayakers.
While I agree that Austin is a great city to use as a model for future development in Tulsa, I feel that it is necessary to say that Austin is on the Colorado River, not the Guadalupe (the Guadalupe runs through New Braunfels) and more importantly though, is that there are three dams along the Colorado River in Austin and none of them have locks.
Having locks in the dams along the Arkansas in Tulsa, however, would be a good thing.
Thanks, tulsaX. My son described an upcoming trip he is taking on the Guadalupe and wasn't very specific about its location other than near Austin. I should have looked it up.
No, Conan, I was kayaking the Illinois this past weekend. The Arkansas would have been at a reasonable level for kayaks (around 9000cfs) and of course its perfectly legal to float on it. Perhaps they were doing a practice rescue or one of them had a health issue. Any rescue operation is a big deal for them IMO as they have the wrong equipment for this type of river.
For those who complain of the quality of water in the Arkansas, they should note that the Illinois was (poultry runoff) pea green and full of drunken rafters. It was 8inches above normal level. I would guess 4inches was recycled Budweiser.[;)]
Water may be good this Saturday...you up?
A lock system would be sweet, but I haven't even heard it talked about until here...
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
A lock system would be sweet, but I haven't even heard it talked about until here...
That illustrates an argument I've made here about the poor participation of "outsiders" in the river development process. Our residents were asked to offer input for development of the river. Since they have no knowledge of what a well developed river might look like or how locks work, it didn't occur to them ask for them. They didn't know what they didn't know.
I personally made the pitch to several of the people at INCOG during different phases of the process. Their response was twofold:
1. No one else has asked for this. (they didn't know they should)
2. It would be too expensive. (if you don't count the opportunity loss of not providing interconnectability).
When they talk development, they mean along the banks, not on the water.
Same offer to you CF. The water should be reasonable on Saturday. Hot too. You up for some slacker paddling? I only have two kayaks so unless I can find another one....
I'd would definitely be up for it, but alas, I have some friends in town as refugees from Cedar Rapids, IA (offices closed, water and power hit or miss... time for vacation!) ...
I think we may hit the flooded waters of Lake Keystone with some wind power, if the winds would let up a bit for this novice sailor (my boat can handle up to 25 knots sustained winds, but I can't). Otherwise I may go to Rivers Edge to get drunk and watch the Kayaks. [:D]
Do you have single or two person boats? Someday I'd love to take my boy our for a paddle.
Winds expected to be 10-20 this weekend. Watch out for the floating trees though.
I have one 12ft two person SeaEagle inflatable which is dry and unsinkable and a 8.5 ft hard shell sit on top that rides wet but is quick and manueverable. I am looking for a 12-14ft SOT hard shell as they are faster, can be used as fishing platforms or dual seat.
The river should be subsiding during the next few weeks. Maybe you (with son) and Conan could join me. Of course anyone with a canoe or yak is welcome as well.
I can hear the joke forming in RM's mind..."a Conservative, a Libertarian and a Liberal all flip over their kayaks in a raging river. Which one do you save?"[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Winds expected to be 10-20 this weekend. Watch out for the floating trees though.
I have one 12ft two person SeaEagle inflatable which is dry and unsinkable and a 8.5 ft hard shell sit on top that rides wet but is quick and manueverable. I am looking for a 12-14ft SOT hard shell as they are faster, can be used as fishing platforms or dual seat.
The river should be subsiding during the next few weeks. Maybe you (with son) and Conan could join me. Of course anyone with a canoe or yak is welcome as well.
I can hear the joke forming in RM's mind..."a Conservative, a Libertarian and a Liberal all flip over their kayaks in a raging river. Which one do you save?"[:D]
I think I would be up for it, what time did you have in mind? Earlier is probably better for me.
There hadn't been a shell out on the water since the Rte. 66 Regatta on May 31 until Monday or Tues. of this week. The rowing club had to get an exception from the Corps to lower the flow rate for a day for the regatta. I got out in a single Tuesday night and was dodging debris constantly. It was hard to get into a rhythm as I was keeping a vigilant eye out for debris.
We go off the gauge height (I think it's at 11th St. bridge), rather than CFS flow when making go/no-go decisions on rowing. It's all relative.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ok/nwis/uv/?site_no=07164500&
Hey Gang, How is that new RiverSide jogging trail coming along? I understand they rebuilt some of it. I have not been in Tulsa for awhile. Did they rebuild that whole trail yet? I heard that they will rebuild it in sections. It really needed a overhaul the pavement was worn and badly cracked. Tulsa Rockz![:)]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Hey Gang, How is that new RiverSide jogging trail coming along? I understand they rebuilt some of it. I have not been in Tulsa for awhile. Did they rebuild that whole trail yet? I heard that they will rebuild it in sections. It really needed a overhaul the pavement was worn and badly cracked. Tulsa Rockz![:)]
I rode from the Riverwest Festival Park (where hey have Oktoberfest) south on the west side across the 71st St. bridge and back up to 21st last night. They've completed the I-44 to 71st expansion (parallels the train tracks). No improvements as of yet from 71st to 51st on the east side, but 51st to 31st is now closed for those improvements. 31st to 21st on the east side is done(two trails most of the way), and I think 21st to 11th is finished or really close.
That made it a more of a challege getting from 51st to 31st last night navigating the neighborhoods instead of the direct route the trails offers. There were tons of people out last night, especially north of 31st St. I think the improvements have gotten more people interested in the river.
Oklahoma City does have locks, and so should Tulsa. Can you imagine the popularity of a boat on the Arkansas like OKC's Devon Discovery between Sand Springs, downtown, Turkey Mtn., and the Riverwalk??
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080425_12_OKLAH57076
The Oklahoma City mayor said "We never did envision boats going up and down (the river)," Norick said. "I don't think any of us envisioned at that time what our downtown would look like." Where is this vision in Tulsa??
I'd be up for it some weekend for sure. I tried to get my old man's canoe - which hasnt been used since I left for college some time ago. But, he assured me, he is going to start using it now. [xx(]
Saw those kayakers below the low-water dam Sunday mid-afternoon. Got a pretty good shot of them shooting the jetty toward the wave. NO LIFEJACKETS.
Video of kayakers going over the Tulsa Wave on Sunday (//%22http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2792713682746093701&q=kayakers+tulsa&ei=Vi9bSKGyAojS4QKJyN3yDg%22)
I saw a kayak with a fire on it in the middle.
It proved you can have your kayak and heat it too.
So here's my parable.
Three guys go kayaking on the river, a Conservative, a Libertarian and a Liberal. The river unexpectedly starts to rage and tosses them all into the river before they can reach their life jackets which of course they are sitting on.
A fisherman nearby sees them bobbing around and realizes he can only save one of them because he has one length of rope and nothing to tie it to but himself and not much time. Which one survives? Which one does he choose?
You may complete it differently. Here's my answer and the moral of the story:
The Liberal immediately is filled with compassion for his fellow yakkers and attempts to save them all by exclaiming, "If we band together we can do it!" He is promptly drowned by the other two.
The Conservative and the Libertarian then lock eyes. Only one will survive. They both pull out their constitutionally protected side arms and aim them at each other. The farmer is astounded.
The Libertarian being the more clever of the two, changes the aim of his gun towards the farmer. "You will save me...or we all die!"
The Conservative seizes the moment, shoots the Libertarian dead and thus survives.
The moral? The smartest don't always survive, teamwork is overated and fishing is a better sport than kayaking.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Saw those kayakers below the low-water dam Sunday mid-afternoon. Got a pretty good shot of them shooting the jetty toward the wave. NO LIFEJACKETS.
Video of kayakers going over the Tulsa Wave on Sunday (//%22http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2792713682746093701&q=kayakers+tulsa&ei=Vi9bSKGyAojS4QKJyN3yDg%22)
Actually, Tim, that is a canoe. They handled that wave pretty well. Lifejackets over the age of 12 are not mandatory but a darn good idea.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Quote
Actually, Tim, that is a canoe. They handled that wave pretty well. Lifejackets over the age of 12 are not mandatory but a darn good idea.
I missed the boat on that one! DOH!
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Quote
Actually, Tim, that is a canoe. They handled that wave pretty well. Lifejackets over the age of 12 are not mandatory but a darn good idea.
I missed the boat on that one! DOH!
LOL! Did you just happen to have a video camera with you or did you know they were getting ready to do this. The wave sure looked a lot bigger with a canoe going over it than it does when you walk or bike past it.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
LOL! Did you just happen to have a video camera with you or did you know they were getting ready to do this. The wave sure looked a lot bigger with a canoe going over it than it does when you walk or bike past it.
By pure happenstance was on the scene right after they set in. I have taken the Wave with a USS Walmart 'raft,' and it really is a fun ride. I do believe H2O boy needs to hook us up with a session . . .
With some work they could turn that whole area into a more developed whitewater area for kayaks and canoes. They could offer different levels of difficulty from Class III-IV rapids at the Tulsa Wave to Class II-III in other parts of the river closer to the east bank. Get an outfitter to set up shop that could pick people up after they go on a "run" and it could be quite the attraction.
But back to the idea of locks with low water dams, if Tulsa ever wants river boats like they now have in OKC they will require locks, most likely on the west bank where there is a rocky shoreline and deeper water (keep the east bank natural).
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
With some work they could turn that whole area into a more developed whitewater area for kayaks and canoes. They could offer different levels of difficulty from Class III-IV rapids at the Tulsa Wave to Class II-III in other parts of the river closer to the east bank. Get an outfitter to set up shop that could pick people up after they go on a "run" and it could be quite the attraction.
But back to the idea of locks with low water dams, if Tulsa ever wants river boats like they now have in OKC they will require locks, most likely on the west bank where there is a rocky shoreline and deeper water (keep the east bank natural).
The living river concept would have been a great project to set up a canoe/kayak operation with the Wave as a departure point. I have taken an 18ft planing boat over it but not a displacement craft yet. Looks like a roller coaster ride.
I agree with you SXSW. However, the channel meanders so that it is deeper on the West bank between 11th street to 21st street but then deeper on the East bank from 21st to the pedestrian bridge, then deepens back to the West bank below the lowater dam.
It will take a concerted effort to convince officials of the need. One person's suggestion is just a kook. A few people asking is an interesting but easily ignored suggestion. But an organization/ association/non-profit speaks their language.
I'll offer this. I will try to round up some boats and organize a float to show first hand views of what the river really is, the obstacles to overcome are and what the unrecognized potential is. I'm not the expert mind you, but I am more informed by real life experience on the river than most.
Any takers?
Waterboy, are you the fellow driving the dark Ford Explorer with a yellow and orange kayak strapped to the top? Just curious.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Any takers?
It sounded kooky when you first mentioned the channel idea but would that not address the oxygenation issue of additional dams
and provide more usable space on the river? Not so kooky.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
I will try to round up some boats and organize a float to show first hand views of what the river really is, the obstacles to overcome are and what the unrecognized potential is. I'm not the expert mind you, but I am more informed by real life experience on the river than most.
Any takers?
This sounds like the beginning of a Gilligan's Island episode. I know I look like the Skipper, but I act more like his little buddy.
Anyone interested, PM me and I'll start a sign up list. RM, I have the boat for you and a special assignment.
. . . as long as Mary Anne or Ginger is on board . . .
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
Waterboy, are you the fellow driving the dark Ford Explorer with a yellow and orange kayak strapped to the top? Just curious.
No, but I've seen the guy over on Memorial around 91st. I'm younger and better looking.[;)]
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Any takers?
It sounded kooky when you first mentioned the channel idea but would that not address the oxygenation issue of additional damsand provide more usable space on the river? Not so kooky.
That's been a couple of years ago. Somewhere I have an artist's rendering. A very simple concept that wasn't really considered.
I'll go a step farther with the locks idea. If they would put a lock on the Jenks dam, and retrofit one on the existing low water dam you could promote trips that started at the Keystone Dam and ended up in the Navigation Channel.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Any takers?
It sounded kooky when you first mentioned the channel idea but would that not address the oxygenation issue of additional damsand provide more usable space on the river? Not so kooky.
That's been a couple of years ago. Somewhere I have an artist's rendering. A very simple concept that wasn't really considered.
I'll go a step farther with the locks idea. If they would put a lock on the Jenks dam, and retrofit one on the existing low water dam you could promote trips that started at the Keystone Dam and ended up in the Navigation Channel.
Wouldn't that require another dam downstream to keep it navagable all the way to the nav channel through the drier months?
I got an email today that the Jr. rowing club is doing their summer training camp out at the TU Women's boathouse near the Port of Catoosa (they row in the main nav channel). Looks like flow is going to be up for a good long while since Keystone is w/in 6 ft. of the upper flood pool.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
. . . as long as Mary Anne or Ginger is on board . . .
Mary Ann, preferably.. [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaFan-inTexas
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
. . . as long as Mary Anne or Ginger is on board . . .
Mary Ann, preferably.. [:D]
...and her sweet sweet coconut banana cream pie
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Any takers?
It sounded kooky when you first mentioned the channel idea but would that not address the oxygenation issue of additional damsand provide more usable space on the river? Not so kooky.
That's been a couple of years ago. Somewhere I have an artist's rendering. A very simple concept that wasn't really considered.
I'll go a step farther with the locks idea. If they would put a lock on the Jenks dam, and retrofit one on the existing low water dam you could promote trips that started at the Keystone Dam and ended up in the Navigation Channel.
Wouldn't that require another dam downstream to keep it navagable all the way to the nav channel through the drier months?
I got an email today that the Jr. rowing club is doing their summer training camp out at the TU Women's boathouse near the Port of Catoosa (they row in the main nav channel). Looks like flow is going to be up for a good long while since Keystone is w/in 6 ft. of the upper flood pool.
With an additional dam at Jenks I think they will find it necessary to release enough that the channel could be navigable for canoes through much of the summer. The trend seems o be for releases farther into the summer.
The corps is really earning their money right now. They can't really lower the nav channel much either until the Mississippi drains off the flooding in the upper midwest.
I'm a Ginger guy myself.
Man it would be nice someday to be able to boat from inner city Tulsa to the Navigation Channel, and then either up the Verdigris or down to beautiful Kerr Lake (or all the way to the Gulf if you had a few weeks to spare). I know river cities where you can take powerboats on the river and where there are marinas IN the city like Louisville, Omaha, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, etc. No reason if we had low water dams with locks all the way to the Navigation Channel that we couldn't see that in Tulsa either. I realize that would be a lofty goal but we have to start somewhere. I'd keep a boat on the river if I could go on a day trip up to near Keystone Dam or down by the Concharty Mountains southeast of Bixby, or simply go dock by the Riverwalk or cruise by downtown as the sun sets...
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Man it would be nice someday to be able to boat from inner city Tulsa . . .
What is this? You part of that stupidity to get a canal for the Pearljam District linking to the River?
Inner city meaning the portion of the river that flows through Tulsa right by our midtown and downtown areas. I don't think there ever was a plan to connect the creek through the Pearl District to the river. There IS a long-range plan to connect Brookside with the river via Crow Creek though, not sure how that's progressing but it's a cool idea...
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Inner city meaning the portion of the river that flows through Tulsa right by our midtown and downtown areas. I don't think there ever was a plan to connect the creek through the Pearl District to the river. There IS a long-range plan to connect Brookside with the river via Crow Creek though, not sure how that's progressing but it's a cool idea...
They seem so wary of locks and dams. I wonder if it might be more palatable to mechanically portage a watercraft over the low water dams. Sort of like the rafts on water slides are conveyed up to the top of the slide. A boat and conveyor that are matched to each other and driven by an electric motor could operate with little cost and maintenance year round. It could also be done on a set of rails. Just thinkin.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Inner city meaning the portion of the river that flows through Tulsa right by our midtown and downtown areas. I don't think there ever was a plan to connect the creek through the Pearl District to the river. There IS a long-range plan to connect Brookside with the river via Crow Creek though, not sure how that's progressing but it's a cool idea...
Actually last year, when they were starting to ramp up the campaign for the river tax, Michael Bates shared a plan from about 1991 about "re-opening" Elm Creek from the Pearl to the River. Someone had done a thumbnail study on it back then along with some renderings as I recall. It was really a cool idea, though probably not overly practical. It, like Crow Creek, would be more of a "human scale" as Bing Thom would say.
About 20 years ago, I was a member of the Tulsa Rowing Club. Once, a couple of us rowed single sculls up from the West Festival Park area (where the boathouse is now) several miles up the Arkansas River towards Keystone.
The trick was that you needed high enough water to get upstream from Zink Lake, but not so high you couldn't row against the current. (I vaguely remember some sort of low concrete barriers that had to be submerged deep enough to float over. Not dams...just low thingies like the curb on a street?) Wiggling through all the bridges at 11th Street with lots of eddies and weird currents was an adventure.
I remember that it was great to "row out of town," into the countryside, but it was gross when we started rowing through that foamy "spooge" stuff that sometimes covers the entire river's surface.
Not sure, but I think we could have rowed all the way to the Keystone Dam, if we'd had the time/endurance/inclination to do it all against the current.
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
About 20 years ago, I was a member of the Tulsa Rowing Club. Once, a couple of us rowed single sculls up from the West Festival Park area (where the boathouse is now) several miles up the Arkansas River towards Keystone.
The trick was that you needed high enough water to get upstream from Zink Lake, but not so high you couldn't row against the current. (I vaguely remember some sort of low concrete barriers that had to be submerged deep enough to float over. Not dams...just low thingies like the curb on a street?) Wiggling through all the bridges at 11th Street with lots of eddies and weird currents was an adventure.
I remember that it was great to "row out of town," into the countryside, but it was gross when we started rowing through that foamy "spooge" stuff that sometimes covers the entire river's surface.
Not sure, but I think we could have rowed all the way to the Keystone Dam, if we'd had the time/endurance/inclination to do it all against the current.
Not sure when they took out the Sand Springs LWD, but I don't think you'd make it over that. Waterboy is probably the member here with the best experience on the river to comment on it.
None of the people in the masters program goes north of 11th St. that I'm aware of. Pretty much between the old west playground and south of the 11th St. bridge. The Juniors will go on north and they have one of the motor launches following real close when they do it.
You should come back out, Ponder, there's always room for more rowers.
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
About 20 years ago, I was a member of the Tulsa Rowing Club. Once, a couple of us rowed single sculls up from the West Festival Park area (where the boathouse is now) several miles up the Arkansas River towards Keystone.
The trick was that you needed high enough water to get upstream from Zink Lake, but not so high you couldn't row against the current. (I vaguely remember some sort of low concrete barriers that had to be submerged deep enough to float over. Not dams...just low thingies like the curb on a street?) Wiggling through all the bridges at 11th Street with lots of eddies and weird currents was an adventure.
I remember that it was great to "row out of town," into the countryside, but it was gross when we started rowing through that foamy "spooge" stuff that sometimes covers the entire river's surface.
Not sure, but I think we could have rowed all the way to the Keystone Dam, if we'd had the time/endurance/inclination to do it all against the current.
If you were able to choose the right path through the bridges (to avoid the concrete bridge debris), the next barrier is the natural fault/uplift that runs across the river from the refinery eastward. It is a natural crossing that Indians and pioneers used. One account relates that Creek Indians were chased to that crossing during the Civil war and escaped in the dark of night because they knew where the rocks were.
At 4000cfs or 3ft at the 11ths street bridge, you could go all the way to Sand Springs back then and to the dam if you wished today, though it would be plenty of aching muscles.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
At 4000cfs or 3ft at the 11ths street bridge, you could go all the way to Sand Springs back then and to the dam if you wished today, though it would be plenty of aching muscles.
Understatement of the day... [;)]
Wasn't it an only a few years ago that they were finding parts of the old paddle wheel boat that came upstream to Tulsa?
The corps has had as much trouble with dikes to control the old Mississippi as Tulsa SWM has in figuring which street to place the high water signs in a little slow rain storm.
The corps (I believe) they have miscalculated some 35 times already where the dikes have breached costing millions of dollars to the uninsured home owners that thought they were protected until the dikes failed.
Over the years we have escaped major flooding because unrestricted the Arkansas River has meandered across unoccupied land leaving extensive river bottom lands. When we place restrictions in the unpredictable flow, the water is going to find a place to go.
We can error in calculations on the Arkansas same as on the Mississippi. Even the big plash fell apart.
Keystone is a dirt constructed dam like those that failed in the flooded areas.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
Wasn't it an only a few years ago that they were finding parts of the old paddle wheel boat that came upstream to Tulsa?
The corps has had as much trouble with dikes to control the old Mississippi as Tulsa SWM has in figuring which street to place the high water signs in a little slow rain storm.
The corps (I believe) they have miscalculated some 35 times already where the dikes have breached costing millions of dollars to the uninsured home owners that thought they were protected until the dikes failed.
Over the years we have escaped major flooding because unrestricted the Arkansas River has meandered across unoccupied land leaving extensive river bottom lands. When we place restrictions in the unpredictable flow, the water is going to find a place to go.
We can error in calculations on the Arkansas same as on the Mississippi. Even the big plash fell apart.
Keystone is a dirt constructed dam like those that failed in the flooded areas.
In 42 years we have only had two flood episodes on the river in Tulsa. One was human error. Not bad management in these parts, especially if you contrast it to pre-1965. In both cases only property that was in areas that never should have been developed were affected.
You make it sound like they just piled up dirt and cross their fingers. Most of Keystone dam is a reinforced earthen dam that shows no signs of weakening. What would be your solution to a meandering river that annualy floods the countryside?
I think people like the Keystone dam. Here's a pic from 1943...back when the river flooded all the time...
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1199.jpg)
Photo: Beryl Ford Collection
Did I mention how much I love the Beryl Ford collection being available online? These are both from 1957:
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A1198.jpg)
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A0929.jpg)
1923...
(http://www.tulsalibrary.org/JPG/A0908.jpg)
OK, I'll stop now... [:)]
Waterboy:
In the 42 years we have built as the man FEMA said that even a farmer knows better than to build houses in river beds.
In our grab to be a big city we have ignored this advice and many find their house are in a natural floodway. Rainfall as part of the hydraulic's of flowing water is sure not an exact science.
The Native Indian moved his teepee to higher grounds in flood prone times. Those on the west coast had a problem with the million dollars house going down hill riding on mud slides.
It is estimated that 40% of Tulsa's housing is in flash flood areas. The reason is that in our hast to be a big city have created another bureaucracies that promote buying flood insurance which has no depreciated value when assessed on annual property taxes and fee's.
I have seen from the 1930 until today that washing away the river banks and reduced farms to 80% of land areas and saw the greatest flood on the local Arkansas in all the years of watching floods. The floods surpassed all other Tulsa flood in property damage even with the Keystone in operation.
We want to compare recent flood but talk in numbers of 100-500 years floods.
We could build a river-by-pass in the oxbow but that would again have to go through Brookside where the river has meandered over the 100-500 year floods.
The solution is to buy out flood areas in the Tulsa are like they are doing at Pitcher. There after restrict any filling of in the floodway and open it up again.
Ponderinc:
Why didn't you show the picture of the loaded train cars parked on the railroad bridge as a safety factor to keep it from washing away
You know Shadows, I agree with you. This city has been driven hard since its start by builders/developers who ignored the dangers of building in a flood plain to maxixmize their profits. We covered up creeks and built on them then seem surprised that they later flooded. We embraced huge shopping center asphalt parking that accentuated runoff. We built in low lying areas around Riverside (still do) and Brookside then used insurance to cover our butts.
Of course the cost of those floods is spread among the entire insurance paying public. Thousands of apartments subsidized by federal funds lie within a half mile of a river with a watershed of 72,000 square miles. Why? The land was cheap (floodprone) and we needed somewhere for the working class poor. After flooding for some sixty years the feds used the Corps. to build a dam and cover our butts long term. The ecological damage of these dams and their potential for catastropic failure is now becoming apparent.
All because we refused to acknowledge the obvious. Don't build homes within a half mile of meandering, flood prone river systems. Be wary of impeding the flow of such rivers and spend your capital on managing the flow with dredging, channelizing and shoreline hardening.
But it is what it is. The government did what seemed reasonable at the time, it has stopped expensive flooding for 42 years and covered the butts of our developers.
I like the idea of a plan that would recapture areas of the city like south Brookside and convert them into oxbow type lakes that mimic the retention ponds in East Tulsa. A series of lakes near shopping/recreation/highrise housing would be cool. That is grand planning and might work in socio-political climate like China. Not in the last bastion of conservative capitalism though.
WB, still amazes me how many high dollar homes are built and are being built where flood waters were in 1986 down by Jenks and Bixby.
Chances of that happening again are limited, but at some point the corps could wind up with a floodwater management decision which might end up flooding those areas again. Granted the stream-gauge system is far better 22 years later, but still doesn't account for all of nature's whims.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
WB, still amazes me how many high dollar homes are built and are being built where flood waters were in 1986 down by Jenks and Bixby.
Chances of that happening again are limited, but at some point the corps could wind up with a floodwater management decision which might end up flooding those areas again. Granted the stream-gauge system is far better 22 years later, but still doesn't account for all of nature's whims.
I would bet there are few if any pictures of flooding in original Tulsa, downtown Tulsa or near North/South Tulsa.
[/quote]
I would bet there are few if any pictures of flooding in original Tulsa, downtown Tulsa or near North/South Tulsa.
[/quote]
Actally there are several in the Beryl Ford Collection. It's a bear to navigate but if you look under the year, like 1897 Flood, 1914 Flood, 1923 Flood, 1957 Flood, they are there. The 1957 Flood pics shows sandbagging on Riverside and some shots of PSO, they are on page 19 of the collection.
http://www.berylfordcollection.com/
I found some more pics Arkansas River flooding on page 125 - 126 of the Beryl Ford Collection
http://www.berylfordcollection.com/
Picture 6279 on page 126 shows the river right at the bottom or the Ped bridge, I would guess it's the 57 flood. Anyway FWIW.
Thanks, I will check those out. If you mean around Riverside, well sure. But downtown? In 1897 it might have been area creeks flooding or street flooding since it was unlikely they had storm sewers. Downtown and the original Tulsa townsites sit awfully high above the Arkansas River for it to have flooded them.
Well, the 1923 flood pics started at about 854. They were mostly West Tulsa around Garden City, what looks to be Southwest Blvd around 41st & Union and mostly agricultural farms and tank farms very close to the river.
I haven't found the others yet, but doubtful the Arkansas would have flooded that high. It would have been catastrophic. Think about the bluffs near the east side of the river at 11th street bridge. The railroad bridge would have been inundated. Those homes around West 3rd street sitting high and dry and downtown buildings like where PSO is now are the original townsites.
edit: I love the site but it is so slow and clunky. Search by "year" and peruse the pics of "main street 1898", "east of bridge", "Toll Bridge"... the first 30 or so pics and you realize the flooding from the Arkansas at that time wouldn't have affected the original town area. For a hoot, check out Orcutt Park, now known as Swan Lake.