Gentlemen/women,
We have the winners of the new Tulsa Darwin Awards. If you did not get a chance to see the Tulsa planning commission meeting on the 21st, than you should request a video copy of the meeting. It is the sparkling example of what's wrong with Tulsa, why developers flee, and why strip-malls flourish. It should be used as an educational tool in universities and for future commissioners to serve as an example of how to destroy a city by committee.
The development presented for approval was a tract on 14th street directly across the street from the Mapleridge neighborhood. I think it was called Maple Terrace. It was a set of 4 story lofts designed to match the surrounding (and in some cases no longer existing) building fronts of cherry street. The back of the buildings had large upper decks that offered an amazing view of downtown Tulsa.
The design of the Maple Terrace lofts did three things. They revived the existing cherry street style, shielded the view of the highway from street and pedestrian traffic, and offered the high-end residential density that this area needs. Parking was also shielded, and the style was attractive to pedestrian traffic.
All aspects of the development were in order. Parking, easements, only minor variance was needed. This was a nice little development that would have added to the aesthetics and property values in the area, and brought back some Chery Street style. There was almost no opposition from the surrounding property and homeowners.
The development was represented by the developer and the very capable Charles Norman.
The rest is for you to see. . .
Basically the Planning Commission held a circus that no one can understand. Every member wanted to talk and wave to Mom on TV. At one point I had to leave the room because I got physically nauseated. It was like watching your kid give a speech when he forgets the words and starts sweating and making stuff up.
After the development was hacked to pieces, turned inside out, and made into a parking lot with some buildings on it, the developer was sent back to the table, and most likely to Broken Arrow or Jenks.
GET THE VIDEO!!!!
THIS IS NEWS
BAD NEWS!
Have you any Plans? Planning commission packet? Anything? Or just your word?
trc MB Z-7096 9212 6/4 5/21/2008 Charles E. Norman Maple Terrace Townhomes 1440 S. Norfolk Ave. RS-3 to OL 4/10/08 4/29/08 Approved
trc MB PUD-757 9212 6/4 5/21/2008 Charles E. Norman Maple Terrace Townhomes 1440 S. Norfolk Ave. PUD 5/1/2008 4/10/08 4/29/08 Approved
I saw that meeting. The plan was to tear down one house on 14th & Norfolk and replace it with 7 townhouses at 45 feet. There was a lot of concern about whether such a small street could accomodate that many new houses, while several other businesses & houses remained. It was protested by the MapleRidge neighborhood, and the surrounding businesses, as well as multiple individuals. Many people stayed through the marathon session to voice there concerns. Ultimately, it was recommended for approval, but limited to 4 units at 35 feet.
That was ours.
I heard it was a marathon, but I didn't hear that it was any kind of fiasco. We hoped to develop the density we feel advantageous to the area but unfortunately that is not what the city and the people wish, so we are happy to abide by that ruling.
Spoon, you are too sensitive, this is what we do every day, and we usually anticipate whatever response we get. We usually have our developers and attorney's meet with the neighbors long before the planning meetings so that we know what we need to design for the developer and for the good of the community. This was no big deal!
The conceptual elevations for the 4 we anticipated were already developed ahead of time. They do indeed have amazing terraces on the back that view the downtown skyline. Each floor also offers this view from entertaining areas to bedrooms. I believe they are about 2,700 sq. ft. each.
Once I get the go-ahead, I will probably be doing some photorealistic renderings of the project. Hopefully the 4 units will still meet the developers profit model and we will go forward.
I'll post more images as we develop them.
(http://www.tannerconsulting-llc.com/280730.jpg)
It was an embarrassment!
Don't spoonbill and gaspar work for the same development firm?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Don't spoonbill and gaspar work for the same development firm?
???
Spoon who are you?
I really like those, the style will fit the area nicely. I like that spot where they are going too. Have always imagined building on that spot if I had the money. Defintely a great view.
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Don't spoonbill and gaspar work for the same development firm?
???
Spoon who are you?
Gaspar,
I've worked with your company a lot, but never for Dan. I am retired now. Use TEPA for most of what's left because they are cheaper. No offense!
RM I don't know you, do I?
KDC
I must have thought you were some other poster with a rodent avatar and a name that included a eating utensil.
I like the looks of this developement. It would be a great addition to put something like that on the piece of property where that sub shop is on Peoria right next to the BA bridge. I know living next to the BA might not be the best but it would look at heck of a lot better than what is there now.
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
I like the looks of this developement. It would be a great addition to put something like that on the piece of property where that sub shop is on Peoria right next to the BA bridge. I know living next to the BA might not be the best but it would look at heck of a lot better than what is there now.
We got a lot of good input and feedback during the design phase. We really would like to do more of this along Cherry Street. I think the area is really positioned well for this type of community creation!
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
There should be a requirement that at least 2 members are picked from the community at large and have NO connections to developers.
What a stupid idea. A special election to elect a planning commissioner?
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
There should be a requirement that at least 2 members are picked from the community at large and have NO connections to developers.
What a stupid idea. A special election to elect a planning commissioner?
your opinion is disqualified because you drink from the same kool-aid fountains as the rest of the INCOG cronies.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
There should be a requirement that at least 2 members are picked from the community at large and have NO connections to developers.
What a stupid idea. A special election to elect a planning commissioner?
your opinion is disqualified because you drink from the same kool-aid fountains as the rest of the INCOG cronies.
I prefer Hawaiian Punch.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
TMAPC is bought and paid for. That whole cadre, maybe save for 1 or 2, should be disbanded and reformed. There should be a requirement that at least 2 members are picked from the community at large and have NO connections to developers.
I absolutely agree that TMAPC is bought and paid for, and so is INCOG. I have limited experience with both of these organizations, but what experience I have had has been totally negative! I also believe that our city councilors and bought and paid for. In particular, Dennis Troyer. That man couldn't be more ignorant unless he was certifiable as being mentally retarded. He thinks EVERYONE is as stupid as he is. What is also so shocking is that he got voted in again! This man is corrupt, too. I guarantee he's in somebody's pocket deep. District 6 is going down the tubes fast, and we have got to stop it. He is not working for us, people. There is a rezoning meeting held by the TMAPC on 6/4/08 @ 1:30. The developers want to rezone from agricultural to Industrial. 145th E. Ave. and 11th St. We cannot let this happen! Everyone, please try to come and speak out against this travesty! These are some powerful people, but if we work together, we CAN make a difference! Let's show them that they can't just put in what they want in our neighborhood without a good fight!
If you have "limited experience" with both organizations then please don't generalize from the specific to the whole. ("I once saw a dog bite a kid. Therefore, all dogs bite kids, and must be put down." There's a word for this type of fallacy, but I'm too lazy to Google it...)
I know some very bright, thoughtful, forward-thinking people who are passionate about making Tulsa an amazing place...who also happen to work for INCOG or sit on the TMAPC.
There's plenty of room for criticism and debate, but it's ridiculous to accuse everyone involved of being dishonest or "bought."
It's just not true.
^
On the brighter side of the street.
Tony Randall once owned a house just down the block from this proposed development.[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
That was ours.
I heard it was a marathon, but I didn't hear that it was any kind of fiasco. We hoped to develop the density we feel advantageous to the area but unfortunately that is not what the city and the people wish, so we are happy to abide by that ruling.
Spoon, you are too sensitive, this is what we do every day, and we usually anticipate whatever response we get. We usually have our developers and attorney's meet with the neighbors long before the planning meetings so that we know what we need to design for the developer and for the good of the community. This was no big deal!
The conceptual elevations for the 4 we anticipated were already developed ahead of time. They do indeed have amazing terraces on the back that view the downtown skyline. Each floor also offers this view from entertaining areas to bedrooms. I believe they are about 2,700 sq. ft. each.
Once I get the go-ahead, I will probably be doing some photorealistic renderings of the project. Hopefully the 4 units will still meet the developers profit model and we will go forward.
I'll post more images as we develop them.
(http://www.tannerconsulting-llc.com/280730.jpg)
Whatever you do... keep the one pitched roof, its what makes the whole thing work. Costs a bit more to do, but really takes the whole thing up a notch versus just being flat all the way across.
Nice touch.
Well, let's just see what kind of relationship that the TMAPC and INCOG has with certain developers in Tulsa. I happen to believe that the more money involved, the cozier they get. But, why should Tulsa be any different than any other city of this size? This is politics and corruption at work on every level in this town. We, as citizens of this city, should be screaming at the top of our lungs that we are not going to take being ripped of anymore! Why doesn't Michigan or Wisconsin or Minnesota or Maine or Illinois have street problems like we do? Why doesn't someone ask one of their street engineers what kind of material that is used to build their streets and highways where they don't have to redo them every year by filling up potholes? The materials that are used in those states is a little more expensive, but it LASTS. They have weather for months at at a time that would shut down this city in a day! But you don't hear about their street problems, because they don't have them. In Tulsa, it's called job security, to use inferior products so you can do the same job next year, at taxpayer expense. There are but a handful of people that are really running this town. The rest of us just sit around and complain, and don't vote. It's going to take citizen action to get the change we need here, and alot of DIFFERENT faces. I for one am sick of the same old jackasses get away with murder in this town! Let's get smart and get 'em out! If I am wrong, then someone please, tell me that I am and why. I will be glad to hear it.
quote:
Originally posted by debaliz
Well, let's just see what kind of relationship that the TMAPC and INCOG has with certain developers in Tulsa. I happen to believe that the more money involved, the cozier they get. But, why should Tulsa be any different than any other city of this size? This is politics and corruption at work on every level in this town. We, as citizens of this city, should be screaming at the top of our lungs that we are not going to take being ripped of anymore! Why doesn't Michigan or Wisconsin or Minnesota or Maine or Illinois have street problems like we do? Why doesn't someone ask one of their street engineers what kind of material that is used to build their streets and highways where they don't have to redo them every year by filling up potholes? The materials that are used in those states is a little more expensive, but it LASTS. They have weather for months at at a time that would shut down this city in a day! But you don't hear about their street problems, because they don't have them. In Tulsa, it's called job security, to use inferior products so you can do the same job next year, at taxpayer expense. There are but a handful of people that are really running this town. The rest of us just sit around and complain, and don't vote. It's going to take citizen action to get the change we need here, and alot of DIFFERENT faces. I for one am sick of the same old jackasses get away with murder in this town! Let's get smart and get 'em out! If I am wrong, then someone please, tell me that I am and why. I will be glad to hear it.
Debbi, You're wrong. TMAPC is staffed by INCOG. Both INCOG and the TMAPC use the CITY OF TULSA's 30+ yr. old Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Code to make decisions. The Planning Commission and its processes and outcomes would not be any different if it were served by a 'City' staff. As far as I know, developers aren't in bed with INCOG or the TMAPC. The experienced developers know the game. They hire good attorneys that have played the game over and over and made up most of the moves. The attorneys know how to get things done. They know the relevant issues to push in front of the TMAPC. There are many citizens that get frustrated with the process but once you familiarize yourself with it (took me a while) it's easier to be involved and informed and actually make a difference. I'm fairly certain there's no collusion...but if it makes you feel better, keep on with the conspiracy theory. Contact INCOG, I found them to be pretty helpful when I had questions.
I also dare you to list one TMAPC member that is in bed with the development community. All the members that I've had the opportunity to meet are very nice and only want to serve the City the best they can. I think they would all be offended by your comments. I'm not saying that I've agreed with thier outcomes all the time. Sometimes they leave me scratching my head.
As far as streets go, been to Michigan, Ill., and Maine and I'm sorry people there complain just as much as we do about the roads. Been to Chicago lately, or how about Bloomington, Ill? Their roads are just as crappy in certain areas. I know I almost fell into a pot hole the size of Rhode Island in Portland, ME last summer. We don't have the worst roads in America contrary to popular belief.
And if there is some public works director or foreman utilizing inferior product for purposes of job security that's his bottom when found out.
quote:
Both INCOG and the TMAPC use the CITY OF TULSA's 30+ yr. old Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Code to make decisions.
This is a compelling reason for people to get involved in the Comprehensive Plan update (PLANiTULSA) and then follow through with demands that the zoning code be updated to support the vision of the citizens (as described in the Comp Plan).
Learn more: http://www.planitulsa.org/
The first of the community workshops will be Sept 22 & 23, 2008.
TulsaNow will be hosting a public event this summer (tentatively in mid July) with Fregonese and Associates to help folks understand the significance of the Comp Plan, and how they can get involved and have a voice.
quote:
Originally posted by Gaspar
That was ours.
I heard it was a marathon, but I didn't hear that it was any kind of fiasco. We hoped to develop the density we feel advantageous to the area but unfortunately that is not what the city and the people wish, so we are happy to abide by that ruling.
Spoon, you are too sensitive, this is what we do every day, and we usually anticipate whatever response we get. We usually have our developers and attorney's meet with the neighbors long before the planning meetings so that we know what we need to design for the developer and for the good of the community. This was no big deal!
The conceptual elevations for the 4 we anticipated were already developed ahead of time. They do indeed have amazing terraces on the back that view the downtown skyline. Each floor also offers this view from entertaining areas to bedrooms. I believe they are about 2,700 sq. ft. each.
Once I get the go-ahead, I will probably be doing some photorealistic renderings of the project. Hopefully the 4 units will still meet the developers profit model and we will go forward.
I'll post more images as we develop them.
(http://www.tannerconsulting-llc.com/280730.jpg)
Gaspar....
I saw most of the presentation before the Council yesterday evening on this matter.......
However, I missed the vote.
Tell me did they ok 4 or 5?
Did they grant the zoning change?
If you have time...? I can't wait to see the instant replay. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by OurTulsa
[ TMAPC is staffed by INCOG. Both INCOG and the TMAPC use the CITY OF TULSA's 30+ yr. old Comprehensive Plan and Zoning Code to make decisions.
well, no they only adhere to it when it suits their taskmaster's bidding. When something in the comp plan goes contrary to what the cronies want to do they back down to calling it a guide (see the Turkey Mt debacle as an example).
all of you who are defending INCOG and TMAPC haven't watched one of their
kangaroo courts meetings lately. They don't even understand their own subdivision rules.
I watched you, inteller at this last TMAPC meeting. You explained yourself very well.
I was kind of shocked. You look so normal on TV.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I watched you, inteller at this last TMAPC meeting. You explained yourself very well.
I was kind of shocked. You look so normal on TV.
you saw me on TV? Well that's news to me!
So, is construction beginning on the Maple Terrace townhomes? Today I noticed the house that was there is there no more.
This is on 14th, in between which streets?
It's just north of 15th Street on Norfolk Avenue. The house that was torn down was kind of Spanish style. It is next to some sort of doctor/dentist office - I cannot remember which.
See if this (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&layer=xc&g=tulsa&ll=36.14063,-95.979186&spn=0.003162,0.006952&z=18&cbll=36.140629,-95.979111&panoid=ng0TrRw9tadeEjvT2i-52g&cbp=12,333.2974323325556,,0,3.8194444444444433) works.