At 5:30 pm at Wright Elementary Brookside Residents will be meeting to discuss the upcoming 250 apartment complex for 41st & Peoria.
In addition there are several additional items on the TMAPC agenda for the Brookside area. 3-4 projects (PUD's) that want to cram in very high density, very tall buildings in the 41st & Peoria area.
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
In addition there are several additional items on the TMAPC agenda for the Brookside area. 3-4 projects (PUD's) that want to cram in very high density, very tall buildings in the 41st & Peoria area.
You say 'cram in', 'very tall' and 'high density' like they're bad things.
quote:
Originally posted by dsjeffries
You say 'cram in', 'very tall' and 'high density' like they're bad things.
I have been called most of those myself. Were they insults?
This is so sad. 4 stories is hardly tall. It may be tall as per the Brookside plan. But its just not reasonable for an area like Brookside, especially if you want mixed use and high density to not allow for the occasional 4 or even 5 story development. By the time you put something on the ground floor, you only have 2 floors above for living. And if the building is small... the expense of building it makes it difficult to make a decent profit.
Plus 4 or 5 stories is really the traditional lower limit on what is needed to truly create a street that is bustling and alive, an area that has enough density to be truly sustainable long term and more self-supporting of the businesses in the area. Not every building has to be that way, but the occasional 4 or 5 story isnt going to destroy the character of the area.
Besides that,,, buildings of 4 and 5 stories can be quite quaint and create a wonderful streetscape. 3 stories is nice but it always runs the risk of an area "not surviving" its usually seen as a beginning or transitional stage for a street. Not a desired, end result. Where as 4 - 6 stories is recognized as kind of an "international standard". It works, has always worked, proving its worth throughout history in all kinds of ways.
Brookside for many reasons "wants" to grow and infill. Often people worry about affordability or losing the quaintness of a street, the little shops etc. But as a street like Brookside evolves, other areas then begin to revitalize and become the "next Brookside" so to speak. And on it goes. We are lucky to finally have some growth of this sort. Yes, Brookside will change and evolve, become more dense and expensive. But this will then cause other streets and areas that are currently run down and mostly vacant to grow and revitalize.
This may sound silly, but you may want to keep the 3 story limit in Brookside. People always want to push the limit and thus most buildings may be 3 story, but the over all character of the street will stay "lower" if thats what you want, even if you allow for the occasional 4 story building.
"Crammed in" but still feels very comfortable.
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1911/2386602916fcceeff782pt7.jpg)
Look,, mostly 4 story buildings. Do they feel too tall to you? And the street is narrower than anything in Brookside. Even if Brookside were to only be the allowable 3 story buildings, its going to change, the occasional 4 story will not make that change seem much more different. But will allow for more density in the area.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9031/14779303143af542c91cosu0.jpg)
Brookside and Riverside year... 2040? lol
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3823/streetsboston2crop2or3.jpg)
Crammed in? Too tall buildings? Buildings with too large a mass? Is this horrible too?
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6466/streetsxx1.jpg)
Now this is crammed in lol.
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5218/19110268303e1f705b0foqp7.jpg)
To me, a 3-4 story building adjacent to the Food Pyramid is a great fit. It's a nice transition from single level homes to 3 story, to 4 story, to big, mo-fo suburban grocery store.
The University Towers in the middle of Riverview neighborhoods...now THAT is a good example of being out of scale!
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is so sad. 4 stories is hardly tall. It may be tall as per the Brookside plan. But its just not reasonable for an area like Brookside, especially if you want mixed use and high density to not allow for the occasional 4 or even 5 story development. By the time you put something on the ground floor, you only have 2 floors above for living. And if the building is small... the expense of building it makes it difficult to make a decent profit.
Plus 4 or 5 stories is really the traditional lower limit on what is needed to truly create a street that is bustling and alive, an area that has enough density to be truly sustainable long term and more self-supporting of the businesses in the area. Not every building has to be that way, but the occasional 4 or 5 story isnt going to destroy the character of the area.
Besides that,,, buildings of 4 and 5 stories can be quite quaint and create a wonderful streetscape. 3 stories is nice but it always runs the risk of an area "not surviving" its usually seen as a beginning or transitional stage for a street. Not a desired, end result. Where as 4 - 6 stories is recognized as kind of an "international standard". It works, has always worked, proving its worth throughout history in all kinds of ways.
Brookside for many reasons "wants" to grow and infill. Often people worry about affordability or losing the quaintness of a street, the little shops etc. But as a street like Brookside evolves, other areas then begin to revitalize and become the "next Brookside" so to speak. And on it goes. We are lucky to finally have some growth of this sort. Yes, Brookside will change and evolve, become more dense and expensive. But this will then cause other streets and areas that are currently run down and mostly vacant to grow and revitalize.
This may sound silly, but you may want to keep the 3 story limit in Brookside. People always want to push the limit and thus most buildings may be 3 story, but the over all character of the street will stay "lower" if thats what you want, even if you allow for the occasional 4 story building.
"Crammed in" but still feels very comfortable.
This sort of thing is a good idea in many places, but it just doesn't fit in the Brookside area IMO. I would welcome this sort of development in that post-nuclear wasteland known as 71st between Memorial and Garnett for example, but not in a neighborhood like this one. And where is "Brookside Street"? I'm not finding it on any of my maps.
quote:
Originally posted by bugo
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
This is so sad. 4 stories is hardly tall. It may be tall as per the Brookside plan. But its just not reasonable for an area like Brookside, especially if you want mixed use and high density to not allow for the occasional 4 or even 5 story development. By the time you put something on the ground floor, you only have 2 floors above for living. And if the building is small... the expense of building it makes it difficult to make a decent profit.
Plus 4 or 5 stories is really the traditional lower limit on what is needed to truly create a street that is bustling and alive, an area that has enough density to be truly sustainable long term and more self-supporting of the businesses in the area. Not every building has to be that way, but the occasional 4 or 5 story isnt going to destroy the character of the area.
Besides that,,, buildings of 4 and 5 stories can be quite quaint and create a wonderful streetscape. 3 stories is nice but it always runs the risk of an area "not surviving" its usually seen as a beginning or transitional stage for a street. Not a desired, end result. Where as 4 - 6 stories is recognized as kind of an "international standard". It works, has always worked, proving its worth throughout history in all kinds of ways.
Brookside for many reasons "wants" to grow and infill. Often people worry about affordability or losing the quaintness of a street, the little shops etc. But as a street like Brookside evolves, other areas then begin to revitalize and become the "next Brookside" so to speak. And on it goes. We are lucky to finally have some growth of this sort. Yes, Brookside will change and evolve, become more dense and expensive. But this will then cause other streets and areas that are currently run down and mostly vacant to grow and revitalize.
This may sound silly, but you may want to keep the 3 story limit in Brookside. People always want to push the limit and thus most buildings may be 3 story, but the over all character of the street will stay "lower" if thats what you want, even if you allow for the occasional 4 story building.
"Crammed in" but still feels very comfortable.
This sort of thing is a good idea in many places, but it just doesn't fit in the Brookside area IMO. I would welcome this sort of development in that post-nuclear wasteland known as 71st between Memorial and Garnett for example, but not in a neighborhood like this one. And where is "Brookside Street"? I'm not finding it on any of my maps.
Hush, you know what I meant lol.
I really get the point. But if you already allow that Brookside can be 3 stories and that it will evolve the way similar streets have in other cities... well your going to get a looot more development in the area. Its just what happens in these types of places aaaall the time, all over the world.
I remember watching a show about areas around NY City. It showed old bw photos of places that were fields far far from the city core. Then they became streets like Brookside. Little shops houses etc. Then the buildings became larger,,, then larger, etc. I have seen streets very much like Brookside in cities like Seattle do exactly what is starting to happen in Tulsa. Starts out as a trendy little street with galleries and cafes going in a relatively run down part of town near a nice inner city neighborhood. Then the area becomes "trendy", larger residential buildings go in, the smaller, funky little art shops and old businesses get replaced my more upscale things. Residential starts becoming more dense and goes upward in height. People decry the loss and the change, but other areas of the city become the next area with funky little homegrown shops, galleries, restaurants, etc.
Its just the natural evolution that happens everywhere. It will make Brookside better imo.
Sure we like Brookside now. A lot of that is basically because its one of the only places like it other than Cherry Street. I can understand that when you have something you consider nice, you want to hold on to it. But it can be even better than it is. Its really not an incredible street in any architectural sense. There is nothing special or unique about most of the buildings that line that area of Peoria, nor the homes nearby. So dont be afraid to lose those things and see it evolve. It can be better, MUCH better.
Perhaps 6th Street will become the next Brookside type area or around Whittier Square. There are plenty of places that can be where Brookside is now. And Brookside will be better. So what you will have is a different and better Brookside and also those other areas that will again be the next funky little street with new life being reborn along it and in the neighborhood around it.
If Brookside were more historic somehow and or there were important buildings and homes in the area... then I would say save those and enhance that character. But as it is, its not that unique. "There are a few buildings like the deco pet hospital that should be protected".
What Brookside is now is pretty sad compared to what it can be. We just like it so much now because its one of the best of its kind "The busy, liveable, walkable street" that we currently have. And people are afraid to lose it.
Hark! I say unto you... fear not. A four story building or two and some more density, will not be the harbinger of doom. [:D]
As a Brooksider who has had a house on the market for ONE YEAR - now priced at the appraisal value - I say forget perversemidtown.com and get that infill going. Existing homes are not worth the lot they are on and are not even worth updating or rehabbing. The fix is in and until every legacy home is knocked down and replaced with a McMansion Brooksiders may as well roll over. The project is not going to help home prices or hurt them. Ya'll other Brooksiders can kiss my grits.
I don't understand the "Brookside isn't a good fit" people. Market forces dictate what is a good fit and these devolopers deem Brookside to be a good fit. So get over yourselves. Tulsa needs DEVELOPMENT, so let the developers develop...
The fiction is that Brookside is a neighborhood with picket fences and Sunday socials that cares about its homeowners. As a disgruntled home seller nothing is further from the truth. When the pig developer tried to screw me into putting an electric pole in my backyard thereby causing a $20K headache when I would put my home on the market you know who fought me on it? Not just the pig developer but my neighbors too. The pig shows up with an AEP truck and the pole just as we were heading out (ex AEP employee, y'see). Brookside is such a great buy that even with my home at the appraisal value no bids. Good Thing I am in Tulsa? Eff it. Tear 'em down put up whatever the developer wants. No one cares. Big deal.
I actually regret moving from Brookside, but was renting when I lived there. I couldnt find a home there that was in my price range at the time and wanted something larger than most of the small homes in the area. However, even just 3 or 4 years ago, Brookide was still an iffy area. It would get better, then go down, then Cherry Street would pick up, then they switch. Now it has not only hung in there it has steadily gotten better and you can now see what is going to happen in the future with the area. A few years ago it wasnt the area it has become today. Lots more potential.
I still debate on just how far to go with the remodeling of the house I am in and how long I want to stay here. My guess is that I wouldnt mind spending one more year finishing my remodeling then staying here for about 3 or 4 years after to enjoy my hard work. Then move. But by then Brookside will definitely start to be more expensive.
If these developments go in and the economy picks up, these next 2-3 years will be the time to buy and lock in an investment while Brookside is still establishing itself. By about 5-6 years out, Brookside is gonna be much more desirable and costly.
I do not believe it is true that Bside is too expensive - just overpriced. Some dude two doors down is selling his McMansion for $400k and has had no takers. We are selling our tear-down for $215 and no takers. The fact is that buyers can get brand-spanking turnkey new for a helluva lot less and have a slightly longer commute without a bunch of tear-down rentals all around and direlect legacy owners.
Yes, did not mean to imply that it was too expensive. But, I probably did what a lot of other people do and looked for the most house per dollar in an area you like. And its right you point out that Brookside is a mix of decent and "good tear down potential". Again, its now more than ever obvious Brookside is in a transition phase. Wasnt so obviously so when I was looking for a place to live. I probably would have made a different priority and gone with a smaller place in a "sure bet up and coming area". I got a 2,000+ sq ft home in a decent area for just over 100,000$. Dont think you could do that in Brookside. Now that I am making a little more money than I did back when I was first house hunting almost 4 years ago, and have now seen what Brookside is really turning into the kind of place I would like to live... well I would now pay more for less space to be in that type of area.
Just looked on Zillow.com and it says my home is now worth 167,000. I don't really think it could have gone up that much. But then shuffled the view down towards Brookside and noticed that there are indeed homes in that price range and much less. But then saw that the square footage for the price is still a third more to almost double mine. The 100,000 dollar home around 41st and Peoria can be about 800 sq feet. The 2,000 sq foot home can easily go for over 200,000$. Though the closer you get to 31st the more wildly the ranges get. You can have a 150,000 dollar home near an 800,000$ home. Though I have noticed that some of the "really good looking bargains" seem to be houses that havent been updated price wise. Heck, some of the houses they list near my house E-of 41st and Yale, in the 90,000$ range havent existed in ages lol. They removed them for the highway expansion. So there could still be some great bargains in Brookside or those are just homes that havent sold in a long time and those are old prices. But over all it looks that the prices are still easily a third or more for the same sq. footage as in my area... and will be getting pricier at a faster rate I am sure.
Property rights are a *****, huh?
quote:
Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan
... want to cram in very high density, very tall buildings in the 41st & Peoria area.
If this is your true opinion of a 4 story apartment complex, then I'll help you find a good realtor so you can move on to far South Tulsa and spare you from all the urban-ness.
And who convinced those people to put those stoooopid perversemidtown.com signs in the homes across the street from the locale on Rockford? No offense, but those people do not seem like the egghead activist types. And what is the point anyway? They gonna lay down in front of the bulldozers? Go cry like little babies to some commission? Give it up NIMBYs.
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
I don't understand the "Brookside isn't a good fit" people. Market forces dictate what is a good fit and these devolopers deem Brookside to be a good fit. So get over yourselves. Tulsa needs DEVELOPMENT, so let the developers develop...
Because it is a fairly unique area in a city with few unique areas. Develop one of the many generic areas instead of one of the parts of town with its own special feel and unique history.
quote:
Originally posted by bugo
quote:
Originally posted by BierGarten
I don't understand the "Brookside isn't a good fit" people. Market forces dictate what is a good fit and these devolopers deem Brookside to be a good fit. So get over yourselves. Tulsa needs DEVELOPMENT, so let the developers develop...
Because it is a fairly unique area in a city with few unique areas. Develop one of the many generic areas instead of one of the parts of town with its own special feel and unique history.
Its going to be redeveloped whether anyone likes it or not. The discussion isnt about whether or not its going to be redevelopmed, that would be absurd, because it IS going to be redeveloped. Its about what type of redevelopment.
3 story buildings are already allowed and will come in there.
I agree that it is a unique area. It can be an even more unique and even better area as it redevelopes and infills...if done well.
I ran across some Beryl Ford Collection of Brookside in the 50s and 60s. What we have in Brookside now is better, muuuch different, and more dense than what was there then.
While indeed there has been this neat little area around 33rd st.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2729/abrooksidedrugstore1954sy6.jpg)
You didnt have to go far south before you ran into...
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9215/abrookside195638thstrlr2.jpg)
Is this the charm and uniquiness we are wanting to preserve?
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6817/acrownbrooksidelookingsaz9.jpg)
I would say this area is better now. I believe where the gas stations are is now where Pei Wei and Crow Creek is and the new lofts are going in behind.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2683/abrookside31standpeoriayh3.jpg)
Not sure but this look like the area near 38th.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8050/abrooksideearly2jp0.jpg)
Old Ninde Funeral Home
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6672/brooksidenindefuneralhohp9.jpg)
1st photo: west side of Peoria south of 33rd Place. Sidney's was at 3330 S. Peoria.
2nd photo: west side of Peoria looking south from 38th St. Hamburger King was at 3806 S. Peoria. Dairy Queen (left side of picture) was at 3821 S. Peoria -- roughly where the "new" Weber's is today at the corner of 38th Pl.
3rd photo: west side of Peoria looking south from 38th Pl. Van's is now Claud's. (Do I see a Golden Drumstick further down on the left?)
4th photo: Looking south from about 35th Pl. The Phillips 66 station is Crow Creek Tavern now. (The station wasn't demolished -- just expanded and remodeled.)
5th photo: Looking east-northeast from 38th Pl. & Peoria.
6th photo: The "old Ninde" building is still there, they just expanded to the north to take all the frontage on the east side of Peoria between 38th Pl. & 39th.
There's no question that Brookside becomes more car oriented the further south you go. Peoria was the most direct route between central Tulsa and the 51st Street bridge, which opened in the early '50s, so it was the quickest way to get across the river to the Turner Turnpike. It's no surprise that it attracted auto-oriented development. But between Crow Creek and 38th St. it was and is mainly single-story street-fronting retail development. There are a few two-story exceptions and a few gas stations to break the street wall.
The photos of Peoria street frontage are interesting, but this proposed development is away from Peoria, back in the north Brookside residential area, as designated by the Brookside infill plan.