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Author Topic: Surveillance Cameras To Scan License Plates  (Read 25160 times)
Red Arrow
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2010, 11:39:21 am »

What adds so much to the cloak-and-dagger is that approval for DPS to begin was done by Governors Executive Order during the Christmas break. 
The legislature exempted the records from the Open Records Act, so theres no accountability or public paper trail.

What happened to all that government transparency?


You can't see it, it must be transparent.  We got fooled by another political definition for a word.   Grin
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2010, 09:02:06 am »

This does not sound too good, but like the old saying goez, if ya have nothing to hide why worry? Actually Oklahoma is not bad in many ways the state has only one red light camera at Peoria & 41st and Oklahoma has no speed cameras. I was looking at a web site that lists speed cameras & red light cameras and many states have them all over the place, My old hometown of Columbus, Ohio has almost 100 of 'em, Fort Worth Texas also has 'em all over the place. I found the web site thru google, one site even lists the fines.
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« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2010, 09:16:44 am »

This does not sound too good, but like the old saying goez, if ya have nothing to hide why worry? Actually Oklahoma is not bad in many ways the state has only one red light camera at Peoria & 41st and Oklahoma has no speed cameras. I was looking at a web site that lists speed cameras & red light cameras and many states have them all over the place

Would you mind going to 41st and Peoria and taking a photo of what you think is a "red light camera"?
...because they have not been allowed by state law.
(I still dont know how the OTA skirts that, btw. Maybe pikepass cameras have been "deputized"?).
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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2010, 09:24:26 am »

Would you mind going to 41st and Peoria and taking a photo of what you think is a "red light camera"?
...because they have not been allowed by state law.
(I still dont know how the OTA skirts that, btw. Maybe pikepass cameras have been "deputized"?).
That's what I have been told, but I'm just going by the web site told me. I found the site thru google and I typed in "Oklahoma" & "Tulsa" and the corner of Peoria & 41st came up as having red lite camera, either it's a mistake on the web site or something- Huh
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« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2010, 11:57:35 am »

That's what I have been told, but I'm just going by the web site told me. I found the site thru google and I typed in "Oklahoma" & "Tulsa" and the corner of Peoria & 41st came up as having red lite camera, either it's a mistake on the web site or something- Huh

Someone who doesnt know what a traffic enforcement camera looks like probably just phoned it in, which casts doubt on the value of the rest of the website.
Now that I think about it, the state law forbidding "red light" cameras in Oklahoma may have gone down the toilet when our outgoing Governor signed an executive order for the DPS to start installing a variation of them (all without a vote of the people or legislature, and essentially in secret).
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dbacks fan
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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2010, 12:59:11 pm »

This does not sound too good, but like the old saying goez, if ya have nothing to hide why worry? Actually Oklahoma is not bad in many ways the state has only one red light camera at Peoria & 41st and Oklahoma has no speed cameras. I was looking at a web site that lists speed cameras & red light cameras and many states have them all over the place, My old hometown of Columbus, Ohio has almost 100 of 'em, Fort Worth Texas also has 'em all over the place. I found the web site thru google, one site even lists the fines.

Columbus Ohio?? Are you former Tulsa Mayor Dick Crawford?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 10:28:27 pm by dbacks fan » Logged
sauerkraut
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« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2010, 08:55:20 am »

Someone who doesnt know what a traffic enforcement camera looks like probably just phoned it in, which casts doubt on the value of the rest of the website.
Now that I think about it, the state law forbidding "red light" cameras in Oklahoma may have gone down the toilet when our outgoing Governor signed an executive order for the DPS to start installing a variation of them (all without a vote of the people or legislature, and essentially in secret).
You bring up good points, plus the web site could be wrong- just like those gasoline pump price check web sites that depend on people reporting the current gasoline prices. Yes I know what those cameras look like they are set up in big boxes, normally they come with a warning sign that says it's a "photo enforced" traffic light. I have not been to the Peoria & 41st street area so I dunno if it's there or not. That can make a good homework assignment for someone who wants to drive there and check it out in person & report back. Cheesy
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« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2010, 08:57:34 am »

You bring up good points, plus the web site could be wrong- just like those gasoline pump price check web sites that depend on people reporting the current gasoline prices. Yes I know what those cameras look like they are set up in big boxes, normally they come with a warning sign that says it's a "photo enforced" traffic light. I have not been to the Peoria & 41st street area so I dunno if it's there or not. That can make a good homework assignment for someone who wants to drive there and check it out in person & report back. Cheesy

It's a mile from where you jog all the time.  Go take a look and describe what you see.
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« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2010, 09:01:43 am »

It's a mile from where you jog all the time.  Go take a look and describe what you see.

snap...
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« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2010, 12:14:09 pm »

It's a mile from where you jog all the time.  Go take a look and describe what you see.

And thats round trip not one way. Oh, wait a minute, he won't do it because there are no milage markers of any kind on 41st so he can keep his speed right. Roll Eyes
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sauerkraut
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« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2010, 09:05:07 am »

It's a mile from where you jog all the time.  Go take a look and describe what you see.
I don't run on the streets I run on the RiverSide Trail, but I think I did go that way when they blocked off the I-44 RiverSide Drive exit, I got off at Peoria and then turned left at a QT store side street that I think was 41st street and I took that west to RiverSide Drive, I did not see notice any traffic camera there if it was there nor a sign warning it was a "Photo enforced traffic light" I'm pretty sure that was 41st street where I turned. Huh
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Reverend Winkle
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« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2010, 06:45:49 pm »

Someone who doesnt know what a traffic enforcement camera looks like probably just phoned it in, which casts doubt on the value of the rest of the website.
Now that I think about it, the state law forbidding "red light" cameras in Oklahoma may have gone down the toilet when our outgoing Governor signed an executive order for the DPS to start installing a variation of them (all without a vote of the people or legislature, and essentially in secret).

Beltronics GX-65,I needent say more  Cool
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patric
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« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2010, 11:09:40 am »

Beltronics GX-65,I needent say more  Cool

That was almost topical, but better that ive been seeing lately.
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patric
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« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2010, 10:09:13 am »

Some good political wrangling in the article, which unfortunately omits that the system is a Mass-surveillance technology with wide-reaching privacy implications.  In Oklahoma, "insurance verification" is simply a pretext...


A proposed traffic camera system being counted on by state budget officials to generate at least $50 million in revenues off uninsured drivers this fiscal year has run into roadblocks.

BY RANDY ELLIS Oklahoman, Published: August 1, 2010
http://www.newsok.com/article/3481381


A proposed traffic camera system being counted on by state leaders to generate at least $50 million in revenues from uninsured drivers this fiscal year may have run into roadblocks.
Advertisement

American Insurance Association attorney Jeramy Rich says the technology has weaknesses and claims many insured Oklahoma motorists are going to be harassed with undeserved fine notices if the system is implemented.

Jonathan Miller, chairman of a company that is part of a consortium competing for the contract, disagrees. Miller contends a good system can be put in place, but says continued delays could jeopardize the system's ability to produce $50 million this fiscal year.

Bids for the project were opened more than 2 ˝ months ago.

Wellon Poe, general counsel for the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, can't predict how much longer the bid review process might take.

"We're trying to evaluate everything from how it's going to be done to who's going to do it. There have been no final decisions on any of it.”

Oklahoma Insurance Department officials estimate between 18 and 23 percent of vehicles on Oklahoma roads are uninsured. The contract calls for fixed or mobile cameras to photograph license plates on moving vehicles. Computers would transmit the data and match it to insurance verification information on national, state and insurance company databases.

Industry officials say technology has advanced to the point it is possible to almost instantaneously determine whether a car is listed as having insurance. If no insurance is found, the owner of the vehicle would be sent a letter giving the individual the opportunity to show that a mistake has been made or pay a $250 fine.

Former University of Oklahoma and Dallas Cowboys football coach Barry Switzer is among the vocal advocates of the program.

Once a company is selected, competing bidders say it is expected to take three months to get a system up and operating.

"It's not a simple deal,” Poe said.

Problems predicted
Rich said he sees several problems. His association was involved with the four-year development of the electronic database system Oklahoma law enforcement officers now use to determine if a motorist has insurance when they make traffic stops.

Fleet and company owned vehicles are special problems because blanket insurance policies don't electronically link the policies to each vehicle identification number in the fleet, Rich said. Law enforcement officers must rely on paper insurance verification card checks to determine whether fleet vehicles are covered.

"I don't know how you would ever coordinate that with the camera enforcement system,” Rich said. "The way that system is going to work is that when you don't show up in the data search done by any of these companies ... then you get a ticket.”

Company officials will get irritated if they start getting lack of insurance fine notices, he said. There would be an appeals process, but people won't want to have to deal with it.

Rich also questions whether the state has the authority to implement the program, whether it will really generate the $50 million a year and whether it is appropriate to allow a private contractor to issue ticket notices and keep a portion of ticket revenue.

Rich recommends scrapping the bids and relying on increased enforcement by state, county and local law enforcement.

"This system is not up and running and fully functional in any other state in the union,” Rich said.

Concerns discounted
Miller discounted Rich's concerns, saying they are "simply not true.”

He said insurance companies are against the camera insurance verification program because it will drive down insurance rates and that will cut into profits of insurance executives.

"They know that this will work,” said Miller, chairman of Chicago-based InsureNet. "We know our business very, very well. ... Our technology allows us to know if it's a fleet vehicle.”

Miller said he is "mystified” by delays in awarding the contract and hasn't heard anything from Oklahoma officials in a long time.

Poe thinks any problem with fleet vehicles can probably be resolved before tickets are issued.

However, he said, when a driver carries motor vehicle insurance, but the vehicle itself is not insured, a camera system won't detect that and owners of the vehicles likely will get ticket notices that will have to be corrected later. It's not a big problem in Oklahoma because insurance usually goes with the vehicles rather than the driver, he said.

The chairman of MV VeriSol, another company competing for Oklahoma's insurance verification contract, agrees with Miller that fleet vehicles should not be a problem.

Chairman Charles Pecchio said he is more concerned about out-of-state vehicles.

Pecchio thinks additional legislation is needed before issuing citations to out-of-state drivers.

Miller thinks reciprocity agreements among states would allow the consortium he is with to enforce tickets issued to out-of-state vehicles as well as Oklahoma vehicles.

Budget impact
State officials contacted by The Oklahoman did not seem overly concerned about the potential impact on the budget that a loss of some or all of the $50 million in anticipated revenues would have.

Paul Sund, spokesman for Gov. Brad Henry, said revenues from some budget sources usually produce more money than expected and some produce less.

He also pointed out the state is only allowed to appropriate 95 percent of anticipated revenues, so a cushion is built in.

Senate President Pro Tem Glenn Coffee and House Speaker Chris Benge expressed similar sentiments.



Im guessing there will be a bloodbath as competing corporations fight over the percentage of revenue they get from operating this system (like the profits red-light camera operators now make in other states). 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 10:15:04 am by patric » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2010, 10:21:59 am »

Some good political wrangling in the article, which unfortunately omits that the system is a Mass-surveillance technology with wide-reaching privacy implications.  In Oklahoma, "insurance verification" is simply a pretext...


A proposed traffic camera system being counted on by state budget officials to generate at least $50 million in revenues off uninsured drivers this fiscal year has run into roadblocks.

BY RANDY ELLIS Oklahoman, Published: August 1, 2010
http://www.newsok.com/article/3481381


A proposed traffic camera system being counted on by state leaders to generate at least $50 million in revenues from uninsured drivers this fiscal year may have run into roadblocks.
Advertisement

American Insurance Association attorney Jeramy Rich says the technology has weaknesses and claims many insured Oklahoma motorists are going to be harassed with undeserved fine notices if the system is implemented.

Jonathan Miller, chairman of a company that is part of a consortium competing for the contract, disagrees. Miller contends a good system can be put in place, but says continued delays could jeopardize the system's ability to produce $50 million this fiscal year.

Bids for the project were opened more than 2 ˝ months ago.

Wellon Poe, general counsel for the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety, can't predict how much longer the bid review process might take.

"We're trying to evaluate everything from how it's going to be done to who's going to do it. There have been no final decisions on any of it.”

Oklahoma Insurance Department officials estimate between 18 and 23 percent of vehicles on Oklahoma roads are uninsured. The contract calls for fixed or mobile cameras to photograph license plates on moving vehicles. Computers would transmit the data and match it to insurance verification information on national, state and insurance company databases.

Industry officials say technology has advanced to the point it is possible to almost instantaneously determine whether a car is listed as having insurance. If no insurance is found, the owner of the vehicle would be sent a letter giving the individual the opportunity to show that a mistake has been made or pay a $250 fine.

Former University of Oklahoma and Dallas Cowboys football coach Barry Switzer is among the vocal advocates of the program.

Once a company is selected, competing bidders say it is expected to take three months to get a system up and operating.

"It's not a simple deal,” Poe said.

Problems predicted
Rich said he sees several problems. His association was involved with the four-year development of the electronic database system Oklahoma law enforcement officers now use to determine if a motorist has insurance when they make traffic stops.

Fleet and company owned vehicles are special problems because blanket insurance policies don't electronically link the policies to each vehicle identification number in the fleet, Rich said. Law enforcement officers must rely on paper insurance verification card checks to determine whether fleet vehicles are covered.

"I don't know how you would ever coordinate that with the camera enforcement system,” Rich said. "The way that system is going to work is that when you don't show up in the data search done by any of these companies ... then you get a ticket.”

Company officials will get irritated if they start getting lack of insurance fine notices, he said. There would be an appeals process, but people won't want to have to deal with it.

Rich also questions whether the state has the authority to implement the program, whether it will really generate the $50 million a year and whether it is appropriate to allow a private contractor to issue ticket notices and keep a portion of ticket revenue.

Rich recommends scrapping the bids and relying on increased enforcement by state, county and local law enforcement.

"This system is not up and running and fully functional in any other state in the union,” Rich said.

Concerns discounted
Miller discounted Rich's concerns, saying they are "simply not true.”

He said insurance companies are against the camera insurance verification program because it will drive down insurance rates and that will cut into profits of insurance executives.

"They know that this will work,” said Miller, chairman of Chicago-based InsureNet. "We know our business very, very well. ... Our technology allows us to know if it's a fleet vehicle.”

Miller said he is "mystified” by delays in awarding the contract and hasn't heard anything from Oklahoma officials in a long time.

Poe thinks any problem with fleet vehicles can probably be resolved before tickets are issued.

However, he said, when a driver carries motor vehicle insurance, but the vehicle itself is not insured, a camera system won't detect that and owners of the vehicles likely will get ticket notices that will have to be corrected later. It's not a big problem in Oklahoma because insurance usually goes with the vehicles rather than the driver, he said.

The chairman of MV VeriSol, another company competing for Oklahoma's insurance verification contract, agrees with Miller that fleet vehicles should not be a problem.

Chairman Charles Pecchio said he is more concerned about out-of-state vehicles.

Pecchio thinks additional legislation is needed before issuing citations to out-of-state drivers.

Miller thinks reciprocity agreements among states would allow the consortium he is with to enforce tickets issued to out-of-state vehicles as well as Oklahoma vehicles.

Budget impact
State officials contacted by The Oklahoman did not seem overly concerned about the potential impact on the budget that a loss of some or all of the $50 million in anticipated revenues would have.

Paul Sund, spokesman for Gov. Brad Henry, said revenues from some budget sources usually produce more money than expected and some produce less.

He also pointed out the state is only allowed to appropriate 95 percent of anticipated revenues, so a cushion is built in.

Senate President Pro Tem Glenn Coffee and House Speaker Chris Benge expressed similar sentiments.



Im guessing there will be a bloodbath as competing corporations fight over the percentage of revenue they get from operating this system (like the profits red-light camera operators now make in other states). 

This just cannot be proven effective in this manner (scanning the tag numbers) because too many errors can happen.  The only truly reliable method would be to use something like RFID, but I think that's probing a little too far into 'Big Brother' territory.
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Libertarianism is a system of beliefs for people who think adolescence is the epitome of human achievement.

Global warming isn't real because it was cold today.  Also great news: world famine is over because I just ate - Stephen Colbert.

Somebody find Guido an ambulance to chase...
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