Horrible Tragedy in Dallas

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


Gotta agree with Grizzle.   The religion didn't kill anyone, a kook did.

I would also like to point out, that yesterday, January 9th, 65 MILLION legal gun owners in the US did not go out and kill someone.

Excellent point.  I enjoy my 2nd Amend. right.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


I do know, however, that much of mainstream Islam openly encourages this behavior.  

If you know please do share. I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Well, I have a slightly different take:

Find me large groups of Christians who drown their children for Jesus and I'll agree that it's akin to Andrea Yates.  Find me entire countries that abide by such religious laws, or wifely respected religious scholars who say it is part of the faith.

Christian Sacrifices

Honour killings have occurred in Muslim, Christian and Hindu families. It has nothing to do with faith.

The bible instructs me to kill a wide variety of people due to honour and small indiscretions, even if you found in the Koran similar statements it would not validate the idea of honour killings in Islam anymore than quotes from the Old Testament justifies Andrea Yates.

Also, what about the other side of the coin?  Where are the Islamic groups promoting peace and reaching out to help others not of their faith?  Show me some large Islamic charitable groups and missionaries that do as much to help others not of their faith as the many Christian groups that are out there.  

Well off the top of my head there is Islamic Relief and the Red Cresent.

 

quote: 'Islamic Relief (IR) is an international relief and development charity, which aims to alleviate the suffering of the world’s poorest people. It is an independent Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) founded in the UK in 1984 by Dr Hany El Banna. As well as responding to disasters and emergencies, Islamic Relief promotes sustainable economic and social development by working with local communities - regardless of race, religion or gender.'

 

quote: Red Crescent Societies serves those in need without regard as to race, religion, class or political belief.  

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

TO be clear, I was not referring to mainstream AMERICAN Muslims, I was referring to the global religion.  I don't know any Buddhists that joined a monastery, but to then conclude that it is not a pervasive and important part of that religion is completely uninformed. Let's see... what Mulsim's advocate violence?

* The religious Clerics in Iran routinely call for the destruction of Israel, the US, and about everyone else.  They are widely considered THE leaders in the Shi'a (Shiite) community.  

* Many Shi'a leaders in Iraq long call(ed) for the killing of, well, everyone not with them (Sadr seemed to see the light shortly after we killed Zarqawi)

* The state ministry of Religious Endowment in Egypt sponsors a knock-off of Sesame Street encouraging children to grow up to become suicide bombers and join the Jihad.  

* Osama Bin Laden is revered in large areas of the Muslim world by hundreds of millions of followers.

* Most of the Clerics and Imams in Palestine are funded by Iran or the house of Saud and openly advocate the killing of Jews in the holy land

* In the Philippines, the highest ranking Cleric is a leader in the long terrorist plot to set up an Islamic state (often also held responsible for the Bali bombing)

* Most Clerics in Saudi Arabia think the House of Saud is too soft and push for greater funding of the forces that routinely murder Israeli civilians

* The leading Cleric (or Amir) in Chechnya announced a few years ago that "our condition can only be changed with a weapon in hand….Allah tells us to … prepare our forces to wage war, as much as we can."

* In Britain the leader of the largest mosque, Omar Bakri Mohammed, defender the right of captures to behead their non-Muslim prisoners and "use whatever tools you have" to kill non-Muslims in the middle east.

* I think some Muslims blew up a few buildings in NYC, and much of the Muslim world considered it God's Punishment against the U.S. and great masses cheered in the streets (2nd try to boot).

Lets see... ongoing conflict regions of the world:
Sub Sahara Africa
The Holy Land
Iraq
Afghanistan
Chenya
Bali/Indonesia
the Balkans
Kashmir
the Philippines
Somalia

Think... think.  What do all these area's have in common.  Oh yeah, Muslims trying to kill someone else (or a different sect of Islam) for one reason or another.  Strange that nearly all of the worlds conflict zones are Muslims vs. Someone (exceptions: serious Columbian drug wars, minor Nigerian oil conflicts).

Lets think of terrorist attacks at large over the last 10 years:  Madrid, London, New York, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Jalalabad  , Delhi, Chenya, Manilla, Bali, Lebanon, Tel Aviv and on and on and on.  What do those all have in common, let me think...  Now let list the notable non-Mulsim terrorist attacks since 2000:

Well, you know.  I can't think of any. See if you find any:
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Terrorist.html

Do I need to go on?  These are not fringe elements.  Muslims have no Pope, they do have Pat Robertsons, Oral Roberts, and the ilk... they command many times the followers (instead of a nation of 300mil they have a Muslim world of 1.5 Billion) and instead of just hating people and casting them to hell - they advocate blowing them up.

Do yourself a favor, go to Al-Jazeera's English translation page and read what their interviewees have to say (Al Javeera actually does do a good job at times of bringing on different vantage points to counter them - credit where due).  Pat Robertson would have been a liberal or at best a moderate in the larger Muslim world.  The pervasiveness of these beliefs, the number of teachers and followers, the fact that some control or influence nation states, and it's popularity in the heart of the Muslim world makes it something more than a fringe element.

So no, I do not personally know any Muslim (or person for that matter) who condones murder.  I also don't pretend that all Muslims share your belief in Islam as a Religion of Peace.  Not all Muslims believe in violence - but enough to make it a prominent and accepted theme in most area's dominated by Muslims.

The Muslim world also sees great charity, large philanthropic societies, and plenty of people dedicated in the name of their faith to doing good. In any belief there are "extreme" sides.  But at the moment, it seems the violent side of Islam has more support - or at least is able to act at will using their support base.  An Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, or Hindu leader who made half the comments advocated above would be an outcast.

Sorry if you don't like that fact.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

I for one don't know any mainstream Muslim that condones murder.

TO be clear, I was not referring to mainstream AMERICAN Muslims, I was referring to the global religion.  I don't know any Buddhists that joined a monastery, but to then conclude that it is not a pervasive and important part of that religion is completely uninformed. Let's see... what Mulsim's advocate violence?

* The religious Clerics in Iran routinely call for the destruction of Israel, the US, and about everyone else.  They are widely considered THE leaders in the Shi'a (Shiite) community.  

* Many Shi'a leaders in Iraq long call(ed) for the killing of, well, everyone not with them (Sadr seemed to see the light shortly after we killed Zarqawi)

* The state ministry of Religious Endowment in Egypt sponsors a knock-off of Sesame Street encouraging children to grow up to become suicide bombers and join the Jihad.  

* Osama Bin Laden is revered in large areas of the Muslim world by hundreds of millions of followers.

* Most of the Clerics and Imams in Palestine are funded by Iran or the house of Saud and openly advocate the killing of Jews in the holy land

* In the Philippines, the highest ranking Cleric is a leader in the long terrorist plot to set up an Islamic state (often also held responsible for the Bali bombing)

* Most Clerics in Saudi Arabia think the House of Saud is too soft and push for greater funding of the forces that routinely murder Israeli civilians

* The leading Cleric (or Amir) in Chechnya announced a few years ago that "our condition can only be changed with a weapon in hand….Allah tells us to … prepare our forces to wage war, as much as we can."

* In Britain the leader of the largest mosque, Omar Bakri Mohammed, defender the right of captures to behead their non-Muslim prisoners and "use whatever tools you have" to kill non-Muslims in the middle east.

* I think some Muslims blew up a few buildings in NYC, and much of the Muslim world considered it God's Punishment against the U.S. and great masses cheered in the streets (2nd try to boot).

Lets see... ongoing conflict regions of the world:
Sub Sahara Africa
The Holy Land
Iraq
Afghanistan
Chenya
Bali/Indonesia
the Balkans
Kashmir
the Philippines
Somalia

Think... think.  What do all these area's have in common.  Oh yeah, Muslims trying to kill someone else (or a different sect of Islam) for one reason or another.  Strange that nearly all of the worlds conflict zones are Muslims vs. Someone (exceptions: serious Columbian drug wars, minor Nigerian oil conflicts).

Lets think of terrorist attacks at large over the last 10 years:  Madrid, London, New York, Washington DC, Pennsylvania, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Jalalabad  , Delhi, Chenya, Manilla, Bali, Lebanon, Tel Aviv and on and on and on.  What do those all have in common, let me think...  Now let list the notable non-Mulsim terrorist attacks since 2000:

Well, you know.  I can't think of any. See if you find any:
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Terrorist.html

Do I need to go on?  These are not fringe elements.  Muslims have no Pope, they do have Pat Robertsons, Oral Roberts, and the ilk... they command many times the followers (instead of a nation of 300mil they have a Muslim world of 1.5 Billion) and instead of just hating people and casting them to hell - they advocate blowing them up.

Do yourself a favor, go to Al-Jazeera's English translation page and read what their interviewees have to say (Al Javeera actually does do a good job at times of bringing on different vantage points to counter them - credit where due).  Pat Robertson would have been a liberal or at best a moderate in the larger Muslim world.  The pervasiveness of these beliefs, the number of teachers and followers, the fact that some control or influence nation states, and it's popularity in the heart of the Muslim world makes it something more than a fringe element.

So no, I do not personally know any Muslim (or person for that matter) who condones murder.  I also don't pretend that all Muslims share your belief in Islam as a Religion of Peace.  Not all Muslims believe in violence - but enough to make it a prominent and accepted theme in most area's dominated by Muslims.

The Muslim world also sees great charity, large philanthropic societies, and plenty of people dedicated in the name of their faith to doing good. In any belief there are "extreme" sides.  But at the moment, it seems the violent side of Islam has more support - or at least is able to act at will using their support base.  An Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, or Hindu leader who made half the comments advocated above would be an outcast.

Sorry if you don't like that fact.

Ok, I don’t know where to start pulling that apart and I don’t have the time to fully dismantle the argument. Just to randomly go through some of your facts though.

One, Omar Bakri Mohammed is not the leader of a large mosque in the UK, but a small fringe group that is banned from almost every mosque in the UK. Not that he is even in the UK anymore, because he moved to Lebanon and isn’t allowed back in the country. He is most definitely not a representative of Islam.

Also seeing as I’m in the UK at the moment and you’re in Oklahoma we can think of two good examples of non Islamic terrorist group attacks. We had the IRA and you had the OKC bomb. Europe has also had ETA, left wing and right wing brigades and only this week someone in Scotland was jailed for a planned terror attack as part of the Scottish National Liberation Army. Islam does not have any monopoly on terror or murder. There are nationalistic movements of all faiths that use violence and being twisted and sick has nothing to do with religion.

When you talk about people celebrating September the 11th, there were no masses celebrating, in fact Arafat donated blood to be sent out. The only people I see celebrating 9/11 when I turn on my TV are some Baptists from Topeka.

Of course some people on Al-Jazeera will have extreme points of view, that makes good TV. Fox does it and so does every TV station you want some extremist and some ultra liberal and see them slog it out. Here is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QfNbIQCIwI

Back to the point of this which was about honour killings. They are not condoned by mainstream muslims, neither are they only found in Islam, they are found in Sikhs, Druze, Hindus and Christian families. Even in the USA there are white Christian honour killings, they are no different to the guy who kills his ex-wife or kills a woman who is trying to leave him. thats an honour killing and its happening in the USA, UK and all over the world.

[cannon_fodder]

Don't bother dismantling the argument, but it is true.  

What's more, I specified SINCE 2000...  the IRA has had no attacks since 2000, nor has Oklahoma City been attacked since 2000.  So those two examples you were able to come up with fail - also the attack in Japan was before 2000.  The vast majority of terrorist attacks and all of them I can think of this millennium have been committed by the Religion of Peace.

And to counter that point you remind us of one idiot family?  In response to thousands of killings, terrorist attacks, and entire Islamic nation state sponsoring such acts you point to one universally hated family in Topeka.  Pardon, but that is not a strong counter point.

and yes:  Religiously condoned killings because an Islamic women dates a non-Muslim man is different than a man murdering his wife and other horrible acts.  Get back to me when the Vatican starts stoning women for speaking in Church.

I'm not even a Christian (know you have me pegged for a zealot), but I don't recall seeing masses of Christians chanting death to so and so en mass.  I don't recall Christians cutting anyones head off on camera.  I don't recall Christian's killing as many civilians as they can in the name of god and 40 virgins.

Look at Fred Phelps rallies, the KKK, the Neo Nazi's - they are all protested, spat upon, and legal maneuvers are taken to beat them down.  That is notably lacking in the throngs of Muslims around the world.  In fact, in many Islamic countries I could be imprisoned or put to death just for expressing these views (or just executed on the street, like in the Netherlands).

You know what, fine.  Lets cut to the chase:

What is the most violent major religion currently on the fact of the planet?

1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Hindus
4. Buddhists
5. Muslims
6. Heathens/Atheists/Agnostics

I'd put violence advocated by and committed in the name of Islam against the rest combined, and the scales would still tip in favor of Islam.

Again, sorry.  Many Muslims are upset their religion is dominated by people advocating violence.  We can argue the merits of the belief based on the historical facts and founding of Islam - but to deny that it is currently gripped by violence more-so than any other group seems a futile argument to me.

I will, however, be open to any rebuttal you have to offer.  It is entirely possible that my myopic American view is entirely wrong - and once again, CNN has let me down.  

and hey, don't feel bad. I think I've pissed off everyone here at one point or another.  Especially every religion. []  I know it is personal, but I do not intend it to be so.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Don't bother dismantling the argument, but it is true.  

What's more, I specified SINCE 2000...  the IRA has had no attacks since 2000, nor has Oklahoma City been attacked since 2000.  So those two examples you were able to come up with fail - also the attack in Japan was before 2000.  The vast majority of terrorist attacks and all of them I can think of this millennium have been committed by the Religion of Peace.

And to counter that point you remind us of one idiot family?  In response to thousands of killings, terrorist attacks, and entire Islamic nation state sponsoring such acts you point to one universally hated family in Topeka.  Pardon, but that is not a strong counter point.

and yes:  Religiously condoned killings because an Islamic women dates a non-Muslim man is different than a man murdering his wife and other horrible acts.  Get back to me when the Vatican starts stoning women for speaking in Church.

I'm not even a Christian (know you have me pegged for a zealot), but I don't recall seeing masses of Christians chanting death to so and so en mass.  I don't recall Christians cutting anyones head off on camera.  I don't recall Christian's killing as many civilians as they can in the name of god and 40 virgins.

Look at Fred Phelps rallies, the KKK, the Neo Nazi's - they are all protested, spat upon, and legal maneuvers are taken to beat them down.  That is notably lacking in the throngs of Muslims around the world.  In fact, in many Islamic countries I could be imprisoned or put to death just for expressing these views (or just executed on the street, like in the Netherlands).

You know what, fine.  Lets cut to the chase:

What is the most violent major religion currently on the fact of the planet?

1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Hindus
4. Buddhists
5. Muslims
6. Heathens/Atheists/Agnostics

I'd put violence advocated by and committed in the name of Islam against the rest combined, and the scales would still tip in favor of Islam.

Again, sorry.  Many Muslims are upset their religion is dominated by people advocating violence.  We can argue the merits of the belief based on the historical facts and founding of Islam - but to deny that it is currently gripped by violence more-so than any other group seems a futile argument to me.

I will, however, be open to any rebuttal you have to offer.  It is entirely possible that my myopic American view is entirely wrong - and once again, CNN has let me down.  

and hey, don't feel bad. I think I've pissed off everyone here at one point or another.  Especially every religion. []  I know it is personal, but I do not intend it to be so.

Oh so I’m only allowed up to 2000 now? You specified, so I have to obey? Why 2000? So I have to fight with one hand tied because you said so. Can I specify that your reply has to be in iambic pentameter or it doesn’t count?

I’m not denying that Islam has extremists, all religions do. I think it’s a problem that religion has in general, I also think the less educated, more oppressed and more angry the person the more dangerous a tool religion can be.

Again I dispute your claim that Islam is dominated by people advocating violence. I think there is also a difference between a war involving Muslims and a war that proves Islam is violent. When America goes to war people do not say it is a Christian war, they separate the faith and the country, even when the President ends every address with ‘God bless America’.

You are right there are many wars in the middle east and conflicts all around the globe, which you correlate with Islam. However there is a difference between correlation and causation. The countries that are at war at the moment tend to be hot, non white and near the equator too, however no one is saying living somewhere hot makes you violent. Just because there maybe Muslims involved in a war does not make Muslims more violent. I’d like to also say that many of the war zones of the world have borders that wouldn’t look out of place in the rockies, maybe one of the problems in the decolonised world was the way Europe carved it up.

There are Muslims who are liberal, even secular, there are democratic Muslims as well however they never make such good TV.

If you haven’t seen masses of Christians calling for peoples deaths, you haven’t seen footage from the Lebanese civil war. When Christians live in conflict areas they can be as violent as anyone else and also use their religion just as well as anyone else to justify it.

There is nothing inherent about Islam that makes it violent. Also going back to the honour killings there are not mainstream groups who would condone such action. Its not about religion these killings they are about HONOUR, that’s why you find them in lots of regions and cultures that place too much emphasis on honour. In the same way if a man feels his honour has been threatened by his wife attempting to leave him or by his wife living with a new man and he kills her it is about honour, not their particular faith.

I think we should call this a day. We’ve scared off everyone from the thread and I’ve got to revise and watch a Werner Herzog box set before I get a late fee from the rental place. And we’re also probably never going to agree.

[cannon_fodder]

1) I specified 2000 because it is the start of a new century, new millennium, and generally the start of a new era (911 kind of changed things for much of the Muslim world especially).

2) As I have said repeatedly, not all Muslims are terrorists.  However, currently in the world... all terrorists are Muslim (duly noted that it has not been true in the past and can change at any moment).  And of course, most Muslims in the world are not involved with any misdeeds - but too many are.

3)  The United States holds firmly to a separation of Church and State - most of the Muslim world conforms or strives for the opposite.   So when the U.S. attacks it is not under the Christian flag, but when Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and on and on - it is usually literally under the Islamic flag.  The religion itself does not preach "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" but advocates the religious leaders at the State (as int he grand caliphates of old).

Sorry, if your country enforces "religious law" or other State actions use religion as an excuse - the connection is both inevitable and fitting.

4) No matter how you phrase it, Islam is the most violent religion in the world today.  As I stated above, the violence done in the name of Islam dwarfs all others combined.  

A short history of Islam:
Mohammad raises money by raiding caravans and marrying his rich boss
Under the new Islamic banner Mohammad conquers Medina - join me or die (or if Christian or Jewish pay a tax if you'd prefer).
Then Mecca again by force of arms
Then most of Arabian Peninsula, by force.
The Caliphate goes on to the coast of the Mediterraneans, then Egypt, then Babylon, then Persia, Turkey the Afghanistan, all the way to India the Islamic army marches.
* About here Islam hits the Golden age, dwarfing and preserving Greek literature, culture, and science as Christian Europe digresses drastically.  
Then the Balkans (stopping at the gates of Vienna in 1683).
Then the North Coast of Africa and into Spain as well as pushing South of the Sahara (stopped by the inquisition from 1478- 1834).
(incidentally, Christians did the same to most of Africa, parts of Asia, most Pacific Islands, and the whole of North America - serving God by killing everyone to set up a few churches.  Oh yeah, and plunder their gold.  They failed in their Mid-East attempts historically).

Now compare that list of the historic Islamic Empire to the trouble spots in the world today.
- - -

Sorry again, but everywhere Islam borders anyone else (even various Islamic sects) we see violence to this day.  Either the regions conquered by Islam happen to be radically violent, or something inherent to the teachings of Islam - perhaps coupled with the long standing culture of those areas, sows violence.    But most areas with a Islamic majority see more violence than other areas.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do I see more violence in Islamic areas than any other area?  Why are there large crowds of Muslims chanting "Death to America, Death to the Jews" but I do not see Jews nor American's reciprocating?  Why are there hundreds of suicide bombings each year by Muslims, but none by anyone else?

I would really appreciate it if you shook my vantage on this, but it seems Islam currently has the market cornered on violent extremism.  Either because it happens to be centered in the Middle East (historically tough neighborhood) or for some other reason.

(again, not being daft.  I really would appreciate a different view point)

[Johnboy976]

Blah blah blah... there. Someone else interjected.  []

[Hometown]

It’s funny the way people dance around the Muslim world’s chief complaint against the West:  Our support of Israel.  Muslims have felt that first Britain then the U.S. have been making war on them ever since the founding of Israel.  That’s were the Muslim hatred of the U.S. comes from – period.  

At some point it might make sense for the U.S. to consider the cost / benefit ratio of our relationship with Israel.  I for one believe that eliminating the dual citizen arrangements between the U.S. and Israel would go a long ways towards making sure that all U.S. citizens put U.S. self interest first.

The war mongering right wingers that have led Israel since Rabin’s assassination have been a disaster.  There is a great deal of dissent within Israel.

Finally, Muslim women for the most part would not trade their situation for that of women in the U.S.  They see that men in the U.S. abandon their women and their offspring with great regularity.  After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

Having said that I would not want to live in a Muslim culture, or Israel or any theocracy, but living here in the Bible belt in the midst of radical Christians isn’t exactly my idea of fun either.  I think of our local religious nuts as the Tulsa Taliban.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

Hyperbole much?

According to the US Census Bureau there are 10 million single mothers.  
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/004109.html

With 300,000,000 people in the US I can list MANY MANY demographics that surpass "single mother"  (most races, college educated, people who make $250,000 a year, # of  millionaires, employees of the auto industry, attorneys, and on and on).  Certainly NOT one of the largest demographics.

To figure how many are "living in poverty" lets state some givens:

Some are single mothers because of divorce.  Of those, half were the instigator of the divorce.  

Of those children born to single mothers out of wedlock some  have fatherly contact if not direct involvement (my girlfriend and I were living together), again probably 50% have contact with dad.

Of those without fatherly contact, most still receives child support.

That number includes the small percent of single mothers who wanted to be a single mother (in vitro, lesbian couples count as single, or other circumstances in which a woman wants to eb single with children).

Of those that do not fall into the above categories, still others are certainly single mother's who are not in poverty.  

It is safe to assume, that given that 3% of our population is a single mother, and of that at least half is above living in poverty - that it is NOT "one of the largest demographics."  Unless 1-2% is suddenly a large population - in which case Ron Pauls 6% support is HUGE.
- - -

What's more, while women are happy in some parts of the world to be told what they can wear, who they can speak to, who they can go in public with, and be whipped or executed for disobeying their masters husbands - I'm sure you could find plenty who do not appreciate it.  Like you said, some are happy in their situation - other's would welcome the hazards of freedom.

To imply that they somehow need the security of a man is a bit over the top.  Mohammad, after all, married his boss (before god told him women shouldn't work and that he could have multiple wives).

Oh, and I would challenge you to find a dozen American women who would give up the right to vote, wear what they want, talk to whomever the please, and have their own lives... in exchange for a man that will keep a roof over their head in exchange for lifelong servitude.  

oh, and yeah... divorce would be rare here too if we made it illegal.  Funny how easily you can change statistics if you make a law and enforce it with draconian measures (or just ignore the statistics).  Just like Iran got rid of all its homosexuals by making it illegal.

[BriefRighter]

With regard to the comparison between Jewish customs and Muslim customs in the U.S., there is no comparison.  For one, Israel is a state, not a religion/theocracy.  Of course there are many Jews there.  However, as has been pointed out, Judaism is a religion and not a race.

Let's compare Jews to Muslim's in the U.S.:

1)Jews assimilate into the culture (no funny headgear or wife-beating);
2) Jews have contributed a great deal to our society (check out the names of some of the charitable foundations in town);
3) Jews in Israel do not strap bombs to their bodies and blow up innocent people in the name of their faith, nor do they bomb and otherwise terrorize U.S. citizens; and foremost
4) Jews do not end up as topics of discussion on news forums such as this.
4)

[Hometown]

Cannon, you are so sincere and you put so much into your posts.

Excuse me, I meant fastest growing demographics.

And of course women in the U.S. have been socialized to expect what our culture offers.

You know it's stetching it a bit to deny the importance of a father's financial contribution to a family.  My mother, who was divorced, would have been happy to tell you about that.  Indeed my mother also believed that multiple wives was more humane than divorce.

What I find fascinating about Muslim culture is the friendships between men and the way men love their fathers.  In the U.S. father/son relationships are often conflicted and a lot of men don't have close friendships with other men.

Would I live in a theocracy, say Iran or Israel?  Not for a second.

Homosexuality in Arab Countries?  It is supposed to be widespread.

[Hometown]

Israel is a theocracy.  And Islam is the fasting growing religion in the United States.

There is a great deal of diversity of opinion in the Jewish community, including Jews who are very sympathetic to the plight of Muslims.

Anyway, Jews, Christians and Muslims all practice variations of the same religion and they are a guilt ridden, unhappy bunch.

[Derailed]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

It’s funny the way people dance around the Muslim world’s chief complaint against the West:  Our support of Israel.  Muslims have felt that first Britain then the U.S. have been making war on them ever since the founding of Israel.  That’s were the Muslim hatred of the U.S. comes from – period.  

At some point it might make sense for the U.S. to consider the cost / benefit ratio of our relationship with Israel.  I for one believe that eliminating the dual citizen arrangements between the U.S. and Israel would go a long ways towards making sure that all U.S. citizens put U.S. self interest first.

The war mongering right wingers that have led Israel since Rabin’s assassination have been a disaster.  There is a great deal of dissent within Israel.

Finally, Muslim women for the most part would not trade their situation for that of women in the U.S.  They see that men in the U.S. abandon their women and their offspring with great regularity.  After all, one of the largest demographics in the United States is single mothers living in poverty.

Having said that I would not want to live in a Muslim culture, or Israel or any theocracy, but living here in the Bible belt in the midst of radical Christians isn’t exactly my idea of fun either.  I think of our local religious nuts as the Tulsa Taliban.

Did you forget the decades long battles our forefathers had with Muslims.  It gave rise to the creation of the Navy.  It's all in the congressional records, of old.  There was no Israel back then but they came after us.  Thomas Jefferson once asked a Muslim leader why they fought us when we did nothing aggressive towards them.  He replied it was their Isalmic duty.

Nowhere in the Koran is Palestine mentioned.  But Israel and its land is.  Likewise, this is so in the Bible.  The Bibical link with Israel is major for Christians.  It should not be overlooked.

By the way, can you tell me more about the Tulsa Taliban?  That's a pretty serious charge.