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February 23, 2020, 08:16:37 am
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Author Topic: Horrible Tragedy in Dallas  (Read 4044 times)
we vs us
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2008, 09:27:31 pm »

We're having a lot of state/religion confusion here.  Islam has an estimated 1.6 billion adherents the world round, making approx. one of every 6 people in the world Muslim.  That's a lot of folks. Here's a great graphic, showing you countries in the world that are approx 50% muslim (in yellow) and more than 50% muslim, (in green).  



It's worth noting that majority Muslim countries are West African, East African, Middle Eastern, Central Asian, Southeast Asian, and Indonesian.  You're talking about a religion that spans the world, and innumerable cultures. Even more important, there's certainly no centralized Muslim Bureaucracy or Head Imam directing the actions of the Umma.  It's far-flung, diverse, and certainly decentralized.

I think it's also crucial to note that these Muslim countries aren't Westernized, aren't industrialized, are by and large quite poor, and have huge uneducated populations.  Even more, I'm willing to bet that representative democracy isn't the top form of government among these countries.  

I guess I find it hard to blame Islam when faced with the diversity of circumstance in which it's practiced.
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we vs us
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2008, 09:55:22 pm »

As for the "religion of peace" thing, Wikipedia is your friend.

 
quote:
The Arabic term Islam (#1573;#1587;#1604;#1575;#1605;) is defined as "submission", rather than "peace", and comes from the term aslama, which means "to surrender" or "resign oneself".[4][5] The word salaam (#1587;#1604;#1575;#1605;) ("peace") shares the etymology of the word Islam.[6] This has led to a widespread misinterpretation that "Islam means peace".[7]


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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 10:20:37 am »

quote:
You know it's stetching it a bit to deny the importance of a father's financial contribution to a family. My mother, who was divorced, would have been happy to tell you about that. Indeed my mother also believed that multiple wives was more humane than divorce.


I do not deny the importance of either a father or a mother's support in a family.  Be it financial or otherwise it would be damn hard to raise a child alone.  Hell, it's hard to do it as a couple.

My point was that many women are able to go it alone and succeed.  Not being tied to a man enables both women and our society as a whole many more opportunities and is a major reason why no Muslim country enjoys the standard of living of any Western Nation.  Sorry if I got a little carried away, and I'm no feminist, but the idea of anyone as a lower class citizen by law appalls me on the deepest level (I know this is not what you were arguing in favor of and understand the dichotomy in even the strictest Muslim family is surely more complex ).
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quote:
wevus wroteI guess I find it hard to blame Islam when faced with the diversity of circumstance in which it's practiced.


Wevus, that's why I blame Islam.  Other than casual threads of Arabic culture (the way Italy and Ireland are both Western), many Islamic countries have little in common BUT Islam.  Yet they all seem to share similar problems socially, politically, and in terms of violence.

Frankly, but for Turkey who's Western provinces are rather wild) & Dubai ( all of the nations are rather untamed.  One would think SOME Islamic country would develop Western or Eastern values, industrialize, and generally get along.  But it remains that consistently Islamic countries have problems with internal and external conflicts hindering development and relations.  Bombings, assassinations, tribal wars, and conflicts with neighboring nations are the norm in all of the highlighted regions.

In fact, forces that are in favor of relations with the West or Western ideas are constant targets.  NO need to go over all that again...

Basically Wevus, because they are so different and the only common thread is Islam - I correlate Islam with the regions problems.  Violence, poverty, and poor relations with anyone not Islamic. In fact, hold that map in your mind and think of the worldwide conflicts going on (Somalia, Darfur, Chechnya, Bulkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines), the fact that the only common thread is Islam is what has me concerned.

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we vs us
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 01:06:03 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder



Wevus, that's why I blame Islam.  Other than casual threads of Arabic culture (the way Italy and Ireland are both Western), many Islamic countries have little in common BUT Islam.  Yet they all seem to share similar problems socially, politically, and in terms of violence.

Frankly, but for Turkey who's Western provinces are rather wild) & Dubai ( all of the nations are rather untamed.  One would think SOME Islamic country would develop Western or Eastern values, industrialize, and generally get along.  But it remains that consistently Islamic countries have problems with internal and external conflicts hindering development and relations.  Bombings, assassinations, tribal wars, and conflicts with neighboring nations are the norm in all of the highlighted regions.

In fact, forces that are in favor of relations with the West or Western ideas are constant targets.  NO need to go over all that again...

Basically Wevus, because they are so different and the only common thread is Islam - I correlate Islam with the regions problems.  Violence, poverty, and poor relations with anyone not Islamic. In fact, hold that map in your mind and think of the worldwide conflicts going on (Somalia, Darfur, Chechnya, Bulkans, Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines), the fact that the only common thread is Islam is what has me concerned.



True that Islam correlates to troublesome areas, but just as the old saw states, correlation is not causation.  It's as easy to see poverty, or lack of formal education as similar correlators.  Or authoritarianism, or post-colonialism, or rapid industrialization, etc.  I'm not suggesting that these are all prime movers (I'm pretty unsure of how to gauge the effect of post-colonialism, for instance), but to pick religious affiliation alone amongst all of those relevant societal factors seems a little oversimplistic.

When I was talking about diversity of circumstance, I should have been clearer.  I meant to take Islam in context with these other factors, all of which further complicate whether Islam itself is solely responsible for the volatility of that part of the world.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 01:40:25 pm »

I didn't mean to imply that Islam alone is responsible Wevus.  

But the fact that Muslim areas are so varied and spread but share many characteristics indicates a strong correlation between Islam and poverty, lack of education, industrialization, and the aforementioned violence.  It is nearly impossible to prove societal causation, but given the near universal nature of the correlation (notable exceptions: Dubai, Eastern Turkey - which are both decried as too Western), a strong link exists between Islam and those conditions for some reason.  
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