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April 20, 2024, 12:50:33 am
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Author Topic: Columbus Day  (Read 3878 times)
RecycleMichael
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« on: October 08, 2007, 10:22:54 am »

The banks are closed and the post office won't be bringing me any mail today.

For what? Why does this guy get a holiday named in his honor?

First, he was lost. He thought he was discovering Asia. What an idiot.

Secondly, he didn't discover anything. There were already people on this land. That is like me coming over to your backyard and "discovering it"...(I proclaim this outdoor grill and patio in the name of the Queen!)

Third, he already has a city in Ohio named after him. He didn't even make it to Ohio, yet they put the state capitol there.

Fourth, this guy was not even an American. Why do we have American holidays for Europeans? Are we going to have a holiday for King Ferninand or Napolean next?

Why does this guy get a holiday? Is it some kind of hangover day to cleanup the fairgrounds after the fair? Is it just a way to make it hard on alcohol sales the day before an election?
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 11:21:55 am »

Well, in defense of Columbus he was a good explorer in that he found out you could travel from the European mainland across the Atlantic to somewhere.   Granted he did not know where and was in fact wrong on that note, but nonetheless it took balls to sail directly West in that day and age.  God (the Vatican) said the Earth was flat and you would fall off the Earth doing that.  So I give him credit for that.

And while it is true that both Native American's and Vikings had been there before, he "discovered" American for the European culture as we understand it.  Surely it was a very notable act that drastically has shaped out world.  Of course, his actions on his return trips were abysmal in accordance with then prevailing  "they aren't Christian they aren't people" views.  

So official Holiday worthy?  Probably not.  The man himself was a brave explorer who did something no one else did.  Nothing else about him should be celebrated.  However, it was the knowledge that he returned to Europe that is truly notable.
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For a really interesting analysis of why Columbus found stone age technology in the Caribbean/N. America and little better than pre-bronze age in Central American read Germs, Guns and Steel.  Very interesting book (unless you do no believe in science, then don't bother).
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rwarn17588
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 11:45:25 am »

If you're going to set aside an American holiday for explorers, I think Lewis & Clark are as worthy and certainly more relevant.

The trek, more than anything I can think of, provided the spark of the romanticism of the West and let Americans know how much vast potential their country had.

I still find it absolutely amazing that Lewis & Clark suffered just one death -- from appendicitis -- in their party.
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sgrizzle
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 11:50:47 am »

People of Columbus era made great advances thanks to the cunning use of flags..

Macy's commercial this weekend featured three women who's shirts each had one of the names Nina, Pinta, or Santa Maria. I was wondering how many people went to google after seeing the commercial.
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Hometown
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 11:59:22 am »

RecycleMichael, I want you to go into an Italian Social Club in Little Italy and repeat that.

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Johnboy976
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 11:26:40 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

 God (the Vatican) said the Earth was flat and you would fall off the Earth doing that.  So I give him credit for that.



I've taken enough North and South American history courses in college to know that by the time Columbus was begging for financial support to set sail for "Asia"/"India", most of Europe (and the known world) believed the Earth was a sphere... this includes Rome.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 07:30:20 am »

Yes, he was trying to reach Asia (Japan actually), I do not think anyone was arguing that point.  But no European had ever been out of sight of land for 5, 10 days at the MOST.  In one shot he tripled that number while proving the theory that Atlantic ocean was not endless.  It was just a theory at the time.

As late as 1503 Pope Alexander VI still understood the world to be flat.  In fact, after the Columbus voyages he decreed that Portugal could not claim land by crossing a particular meridian (ignoring the fact they could sail West and claim the land on the other side of said meridian).   Magellan himself stated in 1518, "The Church says the Earth is flat, but I have seen its shadow on the Moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than I do in the Church."
(Discarded Science: Ideas that Seemed Good at the Time.  John Grant.  Facts, Figures & Fun (October 28, 2006). pp. 30-33.

The bible comments several times that an individual stood upon XYA mountain and looked down upon the whole of the earth (eg. Matthew 4:Cool.  Or that the Earth is a circle (Isaiah 40:22).  Or that it has four corners (Isaiah 11:12). The Church professed that the Earth was a flat disc with Jerusalem (sometimes Rome) at its center.  It was certainly possibly to fall off the ends of the earth (Job 38:13).  

Of course the Greeks new the Earth was a sphere as early as 570 BCE.  The bane of high school geometry Pythagoras reasoned that everything in nature found harmony, and the Sphere is the most harmonious shape.  Therefor, planets must be spheres.  The earth was another planet, therefor the Earth is a sphere.  IN fact, the Greek Eratosthenes  got within 1% of the actual circumference of the Earth.

Plato studied under Pythagoras, Socrates under Plato, Aristotle under Socrates, and Aristotle was the teacher of Alexander.  Alexander conquered most of the known world and passed that knowledge on - notably to Ptolemaic Egypt.  Who founded the great library - which passed the knowledge on to the Romans.  Who later found Jesus and pretended they never new the Earth was a sphere.

Of course, even after the church was forced to accept the Earth as a sphere sometime in the early 1500's they were still excommunicating astronomers who argued the Earth orbited the sun...

So, in short, while it was common knowledge amount scientifically educated men that the Earth was likely a sphere - it was not an accepted general fact nor by any means a proven reality. What's more, North nor South American history would teach one too much about the belief system of Europeans at the dawn of the 16th century.

Wait, did you really want to talk about theological astronomy or were you just making a point?  A decade+ of catholic school combined with a decade of college can be a dangerous thing.  [}:)]  I'm not saying it has done any good, just that it's dangerous.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 07:50:04 am »

Now this is a forum...

http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum//
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Johnboy976
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 05:09:21 pm »

Keep in mind that Columbus was a devout Catholic. If the pope said jump, he would ask how high. As such, it must have been a common perception, even in the church, that the Earth being flat was not the right idea to have.

And yes, you are right. The church, for the most part, misinterpreted Scriptural verses in the past, and still do today.
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