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Conan71
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2007, 09:40:34 am »

quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".



Nice to see you are building mental profile of me.  In any case, if you don't like what I have to say, all you have to do is quit reading right here and hit the "ignore" button.

I speak from common sense, optimism, and a work ethic two hard-working parents instilled in me.  My employer and I profit equally off each other.  I work in sales and customers and people at my company need to get ahold of me.  My wife is in the medical field and needs to be accessible as well.  Sounds like a little sniping petty jealousy on your part.  Or you might just be another poster with multiple identities who has had an issue with me for a long time.  

Nothing in my post is remotely political.  FWIW- my father was a Democrat, not that it matters for the sake of our discussion, but you seem to be one of the new posties who thinks everything is politics.  In case you didn't notice, this thread is on the "forum chat".

I fail to see what in my post what could be taken as arrogance.  What about the evolving retail economy in every city across the country has escaped you?  Want to start a new business in the retail sector?  Ignore the observations (I'm hardly the only one with them) and see how well it works out in six months.

I also work in a blue collar area of town which if you drive around the area, there are help wanted signs for skilled labor all over the place.

Let me ask you this:  Would you continue to support someone to live in your house who refuses to work, help with chores, and is a constant drain on your personal resources?  I seriously doubt it.

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"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the firstĒ -Ronald Reagan
Conan71
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« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2007, 10:01:28 am »

AMP- for sake of brevity I'm not going to re-print your post.  Points are noted.  I'm old enough to remember when Tulsa's retail scene was dominated by locally-owned businesses and I have a nostalgia for it.

I've seen plenty of local businesses go out.  It's not that a lack of money in the local economy tanked them, some of it was local money going to the big box stores and some of it has been lack of re-investment in their businesses when they had the profits to do it.  

Two of my favorite hardware stores are now gone: Harvard True Value and Sheridan True Value.  I talked to the owner when HTV was in it's last month and he said Lowe's and Home Depot had made his business not viable anymore.  He wasn't blaming the local economy, he was being honest about buying habits changing and the fact that he didn't have a 50,000+ square foot store and the means to finance all the fixtures and inventory.

Honestly, his prices weren't much different than the prices at Lowe's or HD, but his selection wasn't as good and the store on Harvard was pretty dumpy.  Didn't bother me, but apparently, it bothered enough others to spend their money elsewhere.  I was always willing to pay a little more if I could get in and get out quicker than it would take me to find what I was looking for at Lowe's.

Employees of mom and pop's can be and are absorbed by big box retailers, often times at a better pay scale in addition to having benefits like health insurance and profit-sharing.  

Another advantage that the national chains offer is  area re-development.  Hate them if you like, but national chains have replaced delapidated vacant shopping centers, gas stations, industrial complexes, etc. with new buildings which help spur additonal re-development, and re-investment in areas of the city that local investors cannot afford or will not take the risk on.  

I fail to see how Wal-Mart neighborhood market looks worse than the Bel-Aire shopping center or the old Quonset-looking building down on Peoria.  15th & Lewis now looks ten times better than it did with a run-down movie theater, nasty Safeway, and some run-down houses where Alberson's now stands.  Those properties were available to local investors and no one stepped up.

I try to support locally-owned as much as possible.  I almost always opt for local over chain when it comes to dining out.  I prefer Warehouse Market and Perry's over Albertson's, but sometimes Albertson's is more convenient or has a special on something the other's don't.  They also have consistently better produce.  For sake of time and not wasting gas, it's easier to go to a chain store sometimes.

If the majority of consumers didn't want low prices, vast options under one roof, and clean well-run stores, the retail behemoths would not exist.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2007, 11:20:57 am »

AMP:

To be sure the numbers are not perfect.

However:  They are not subject to interference as the definition has not been altered for a very long time.  Likewise, their method of data collection is as accurate as possible and mirrors the system used by any private organization attempting to collect data.  It is designed and approved by statisticians and not bureaucrats.  

As per the phone... if you are low income you can get a phone for as little as $10 a month.  Very few people in the US do not have phone access and would not represent a significant percentage.  Furthermore, of the people that do not have phones the percent of people that are defined as unemployed would only be marginally higher (by definition they have to be looking for a job, if you are not willing to 'invest' $10 a month on a phone it would be hard to get a job).

So yes, the numbers are STATISTICS and not firm values.  However, the reporting system is kept constant and the definition unchanged or the values would be meaningless as you fear.  Statistics are only as good as the methods that underly them, and the methods used by the BLS are pretty sound.

You preferred number of Unemployment Filings is much more subject to manipulation.  If you simply reduce unemployment benefits you can seemingly reduce unemployment.  Likewise, as you correctly pointed out, those benni's expire - so long term regional unemployment would be under reported.  In addition to those flaws, a person that does not file for whatever reason is not counted as unemployed.  Nor are those that work for cash or otherwise can not file for unemployment.

Of the systems available, the BLS numbers are the most reliable.
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daddys little squirt
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2007, 09:16:23 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Pretty typical remark from a guy who is probably overemployed, gets a cell provided for him and his spouse and is solidly republican. First off, who asked for your advice? And secondly your arrogance reminds me of Ed Meese, one of Reagan's goons. I remember a cartoon of him looking out over his huge belly which obscured the sight of starving ragamuffin kids with their hands out. The caption was one of his infamous remarks that reminds me of your clueless post, "I don't see any hungry kids in America".



Nice to see you are building mental profile of me.  In any case, if you don't like what I have to say, all you have to do is quit reading right here and hit the "ignore" button.

I speak from common sense, optimism, and a work ethic two hard-working parents instilled in me.  My employer and I profit equally off each other.  I work in sales and customers and people at my company need to get ahold of me.  My wife is in the medical field and needs to be accessible as well.  Sounds like a little sniping petty jealousy on your part.  Or you might just be another poster with multiple identities who has had an issue with me for a long time.  

Nothing in my post is remotely political.  FWIW- my father was a Democrat, not that it matters for the sake of our discussion, but you seem to be one of the new posties who thinks everything is politics.  In case you didn't notice, this thread is on the "forum chat".

I fail to see what in my post what could be taken as arrogance.  What about the evolving retail economy in every city across the country has escaped you?  Want to start a new business in the retail sector?  Ignore the observations (I'm hardly the only one with them) and see how well it works out in six months.

I also work in a blue collar area of town which if you drive around the area, there are help wanted signs for skilled labor all over the place.

Let me ask you this:  Would you continue to support someone to live in your house who refuses to work, help with chores, and is a constant drain on your personal resources?  I seriously doubt it.




Life is too short and I need no new enemies or tit for tat discussions. Lets just say that anyone who has ever been unemployed for an extended period or self employed would tend to bristle at your remarks. Those two groups receive an unending stream of ďadviceĒ which is typically well intentioned but based on lack of insight, experience or risk. I have been through the process a few times.

Youíre probably a pretty good salesman which implies a certain strength of ego but leaves little room for self examination? There is no animosity for you or the resident lawyers posting here, just irritation with the constant reflux of conservative speak that Fox generates. Weíre not all believers. I perceived a bit of Mit Romney tenor to your remarks, especially the one about work ethic, which may not have been there.

I truly donít understand or care about your hypothetical of a non contributing home resident. My feeling about the problems with unemployment in Tulsa is that drug and alcohol addiction is the basis. A significant % of the workforce canít honestly pass drug screenings without using someone elseís urine. That employment pool isnít going to be very productive. But thatís another post.

BTW, why would anyone use the ignore feature? I donít understand a lot of what is posted around here and the credibility of many posters is suspect but the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.
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Conan71
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2007, 09:54:27 am »

quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

Life is too short and I need no new enemies or tit for tat discussions. Lets just say that anyone who has ever been unemployed for an extended period or self employed would tend to bristle at your remarks. Those two groups receive an unending stream of ďadviceĒ which is typically well intentioned but based on lack of insight, experience or risk. I have been through the process a few times.

Youíre probably a pretty good salesman which implies a certain strength of ego but leaves little room for self examination? There is no animosity for you or the resident lawyers posting here, just irritation with the constant reflux of conservative speak that Fox generates. Weíre not all believers. I perceived a bit of Mit Romney tenor to your remarks, especially the one about work ethic, which may not have been there.

I truly donít understand or care about your hypothetical of a non contributing home resident. My feeling about the problems with unemployment in Tulsa is that drug and alcohol addiction is the basis. A significant % of the workforce canít honestly pass drug screenings without using someone elseís urine. That employment pool isnít going to be very productive. But thatís another post.

BTW, why would anyone use the ignore feature? I donít understand a lot of what is posted around here and the credibility of many posters is suspect but the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.




For someone who has been on this board a very short time, you certainly seem to know a lot about the posters here.  You might consider refuting the message instead of bashing the messenger in the future.  I'm hardly on a steady diet of Fox News and hardly a clueless elitest speaking out my arse without a variety of life experiences.  

Assuming that everyone who espouses conservative views or speaks about work ethic is a neo-con, a ditto-head, or gets their three hours of Hannitization every day is wrong.

I went through the daily struggle of owning my own business for four years and other members of my immediate family have owned businesses and been self-employed as well.  Fortunately, someone wanted me to work for them in their small business worse than I wanted to continue working for myself. [}:)]

IOW, I'm not pulling ideas of what does and doesn't work in small business out of my a$$.  Other than a seven year stint with a chemical company, I've worked for small businesses all my working life and have worked alongside and count as friends people from every economic rung on the ladder.  

I wholeheartedly agree with you that alcohol and drugs play a part in chronic unemployment.  Those people make a choice to prioritize substance abuse over work and earning an income.  It IS a choice as anyone who has overcome addiction will tell you.  These also are not indicative of a poor economic picture.

I just get agitated with a few of the other posters here who talk about the crappy economy in Tulsa, when there is absolutely zero basis for such an assertion.  I like AMP, but his idea that vacant mom and pop shops in run-down shopping centers and rickety stand-alone buildings is a sign of hard times in Tulsa is hardly accurate, IMO.

Sorry for being a glass-half-full, personal accountability type-person.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2007, 10:10:02 am »

quote:
Originally posted by daddys little squirt

When I go to a coffee house I don't expect talkative patrons to enlighten me on their coffee preferences either.



So if you were waiting for your latte in Starbucks and someone else waiting said "I've always found their mocca to be really good here, but I've never had luck with their lattes" you're reply would be something along the lines of  berating them for affording chocolate in their coffee and then ranting about their political affiliation?  Nice.  Your analogy really sums it up for me.

quote:
Daddy wroteNo one said anything about the economy

quote:
Amp wrote on 6/2Just appears from all indicators of the physical look of the area that things are not good in Tulsa financially and they appear to be getting much much worse daily

You need to read the threads you participate in more closely.

As a point of order (upcoming pun intended), it was AMP who brought up the commercial closings in the area.  To which Conan responded and began an discussion with AMP about the area that transitioned into an economics discussion.  Then you interjected - to which I replied.  So if you want to try and place blame for thread deviation there is the primary order that led me into the conversation.

Also, I find this to be strange.  You wrote:
quote:
Life is too short and I need no new enemies

Shortly after writing that IPLaw, Conan and I
quote:
should leave and start [our] own circle jerk thread.

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction.  However, I am confident that you will go back and edit it to match your current position.

and finally:
quote:
daddy wrote: the whole idea of a forum is discussion whether its comfortable or not.

After initiating the discussion with:
quote:
ho asked for your advice?


On to the misguided heart of your comment:

1. Fortuna Caeca Est.  I never said the vast majority of comments you attributed to me.  The gods have nothing to do with reward nor punishment for a persons deeds.  Good, hardworking people are unemployed and on the street.  It happens, yes.  But more often than not such a person can utilize the programs in place and get back on his feet quickly.  Thus, most of the chronically unemployed are such for some reason.  For whatever reason that is, they have nothing to sell in the labor market.

I never said, as you implied, that all people are unemployed because they are stupid and lazy.  I've been unemployed and will likely be so again at some point.  I've had my fair share of crap jobs, I've been fired and currently I work in a job I am over qualified for because I couldn't find the job I really wanted.  Entrepreneurs are among my most respected people and they fail more often than not and land in unemployment and/or bankruptcy.  They usually settle up, dust off, and move on.  Being unemployed means nothing, but being chronically unemployed in a robust economy signifies a problem.

2. The economy is good, I have shown you the numbers and then explained them to you.  Unemployment down, unemployment claims down, total jobs up, real wages up, retail sales up, plants struggling to fill job openings.  Your particular field may not have something that is up to your standards, but by and large, it is BOOM times.  I'm not sure what you see that indicates otherwise and you do not see fit to enlighten us.

3. Long term businesses are ALWAYS closing and new ones reopening.  That is what makes our economy function.  Companies are not guaranteed life, if you are no longer the best or no longer offer products anyone wants - you will close and whoever is doing it better will take your place.  The market decides what defines the best and rewards it accordingly.

It is not necessarily their FAULT for not seeing what consumers wanted... but that really doesn't matter.  A business is not rewarded for anything other than what pleases consumers.  If consumers want cheap and disposable products from a high school kid that doesn't know anything about it, then that is what they will get.  A business owner that holds out can either try to find a niche to fill or fade away.

Business has to be able to fail for the economy to be healthy.  It is not a sign of overall weakness when some fall to competition or changes in the market.  More and stronger businesses will take their place.  

Bare in mind you brought this discussion into the context of Macro economics with your reference to 80% national employment.  For the neighborhood business closings are rarely a good thing.

4. Ed Meese had some of his economic issues correct, but fiscally, socially, judicially, and on other points I do not agree.  I more closely associate him with the comment about the adult bookstore in this thread than anything else.  But kudo's on the obscure reference.


All that said; NO, you are not in the wrong place.  I enjoy hearing other points of view and even like to be proven wrong.  I am always willing to learn and to try and understand someone else's thought process and views.  I may not agree with you, but at least if I understand WHY you think that way I will respect your opinion.  That is not likely to stop me from trying to persuade you otherwise... nor should my opinion stop you.

You posts today seem intelligent and well thought out, for whatever reason the other day you went around posting random negative quips and uneducated jabs.  I hope it was just a bad day.  I look forward to seeing more posts from you and many heated discussions in the future.
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daddys little squirt
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2007, 11:11:28 am »

Geez. Nevermind. I attempted a well crafted subtle apology and neither one of you will have any of it. I'm even criticized for having read and processed your previous posts. If i could remember my password I would change my profile to read deceased.

CF you seem pretty well grounded. I appreciate your detailed response though little of what I posted was really directed at you. Yeah, sometimes I'm smart, sometimes I'm hopeless.

A lawyer friend of mine  was also a Natl. Guard fighter pilot and I observed in him what I see around this forum. His success as an atty. and a pilot convinced him that he was pretty well an expert at everything. Driving, business, social work and politics. He constantly provided advice to others (occupational hazard?)in a forceful legal manner that, although usually incorrect, was difficult to argue against. Many of us outside of the professional ranks who post here find that same dilemma. Too bad for us.

I'm too old and politically jaded to keep posting. I will enjoy watching.

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Conan71
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2007, 11:37:59 am »

No need to quit posting.  My reply was a well-crafted subtle "I forgive you." [Wink]

You might just want to tone down the assumptions that people who don't necessarily have the same POV as you are Calvanist neo-cons that's all.  It's offensive to some of the more centrist and libertarian types on here.

As per usual, we get into some thread drift here, and this one has gone way OT.  I don't think the areas AMP was talking about were even in KW, now that I think of it. [}:)]
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2007, 11:46:22 am »

Indeed, I dont want you to quit posting either.  I hold myself out to be an expert in very few areas, but am well rounded and capable of research in many areas.  I simply try to do my best at being informed on the topic and sharing my viewpoint.  That does not mean I am right, no matter how convinced of it I am.

My education and experience in the business field and as an attorney "kinda sorta" have trained me to be fairly aggressive in discussions.  I mean no disrespect.  Try as I might to avoid it, I am competitive at everything I do and I am sure that comes through in my writing.  Again, such is the nature of my training.  It especially pisses people off that I remain professional while inflaming them - sorry.

So stick with us.  There are plenty of strong view points that oppose me on everything, but too many that don't even try to support their argument.  Feel free to tell me to calm the hell down from time to time. [Tongue]
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mr.jaynes
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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2007, 12:46:55 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.



I must say that those among us on this site who are attorneys do make good points.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2007, 01:00:39 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.


He says with an accusational connotation, just after an attorney explained that he was no expert.

I'll go ahead and assume that the attorney you know best is Denny Crane and the like.
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mr.jaynes
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2007, 01:18:16 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

I think most of you attorneys are stuck-up snobs.


I'll go ahead and assume that the attorney you know best is Denny Crane and the like.



Once again, I think all make good points, including the attorneys.

DENNY CRANE!
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2007, 03:23:35 pm »

I would be willing to be that the majority of attorney's are more polished than the majority of actors.  The VAST majority of actors are your bohemian starving artists - the "polished" breed are a small minority that make mega bucks or tour on Broadway.  Of course, comparing attorney's with artists is a bit odd as the two professions attract very different folk.  Both, however, have been known to drink heavily and wind up changing careers.

I'll go ahead and assume the actors you know best is William Shatner and the like.
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mr.jaynes
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2007, 07:34:48 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by The Shadow

Don't you attorneys ever wonder why the public holds you in such low esteem?  It's your conceit.  You all have the ego of an actor, but without the polish.



Besides, what makes you think I'm an attorney anyway?
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AMP
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2007, 12:22:34 am »

Wow, I leave for a day to produce a practice test and tune night at the ractreck in Kansas and a dozen posts appear.  

I think the phone specials for Low Imcome are actually $1.99 per month.  I see those ada on late night TV along wtih SMC, the two dwarfs or midget real estate guys, Carlton Sheets, the cleavage vitamin lady among other.  LOL

By the way folks living in the Bartlesville and Oklahoma Kansas border area seem very nice and well healed.  We had over 140 for our Test n Tune Wednesday night and we only announced it Tuesday afternoon.  There were a dozen Semi Truck haulers and quite a few Modifieds with some high dollar mils.  

Great to hear those V8 Engines running at the old speedway once again.  Everyone had a big smile on their face.  

True, some of the business areas I described are not in the direct KW neighborhood, but in surrounding neighborhoods that seem to be economically challenged.  Even the East Side Cafe has closed, that was Tulsa's oldest sit down restaurant left operating.  Eastside Cafe's Onion Rings were the best ever.
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