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April 25, 2019, 01:48:00 am
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« on: April 11, 2019, 06:09:18 pm »

Some new changes are coming to TU with a reorganization planned to get the university's finances in order and better position it for future growth.  I searched and couldn't find a thread dedicated to TU developments so this can be the place to discuss current and future projects.

Some excerpts from the TW article:
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A reorganization intended to bolster the University of Tulsa's reputation for undergraduate education while trimming administrative costs and low-demand academic programs was revealed to TU faculty, staff and students Thursday morning.

The plan, referred to as a reimagining in the report submitted by a review committee, includes grouping the business, health and law colleges together in a "professional super college," creating a "university studies" program for all incoming freshmen, and additional academic and social supports for students.

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Thus TU's "reimagining," which Levit's introduction to the review committee report describes as "doubling down" on "high-touch" undergraduate education, especially in engineering and science, which have become the university's biggest draws.

A few academic areas are targeted for expansion, including science, technology, engineering, math and cybersecurity, and Clancy said the goal is to add about 600 students over the next few years.

I thought this was really interesting, why the decline in international students?  Tougher visa policies or better/cheaper opportunities closer to home?

Quote
Another uncompromising trend is demographic. According to the university, the number of college-going students nationwide will drop 20% over the next decade.

Acerbating the decline is a sharp drop in international students, who typically pay full tuition in cash. TU said international students have gone from 20 percent of enrollment a few years ago to 12 percent this year, and are likely to be less than 10 percent in the fall.

Clayton Christensen of Harvard Business School has predicted that half of the nation's 4,000 or so colleges and universities will close or merge in the coming decade.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/university-of-tulsa-proposes-professional-super-college-reduction-of-degree/article_6c6489e7-0de7-5433-a6b8-a88ccfb8c9d9.html?fbclid=IwAR0n_UENt2Xm57BuOLsaiO6THdaRfQr3wMcQSP7TQNXuUqkEPQoNV2ohgI0
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 09:12:33 pm »

As goes Tulsa's population and the nation, so must TU apparently.  Lots of rich and growing universities in other parts of the world (Arab & Asian) less reason to come here.  Then of course the Trump effect of the US not seeming to be as desirable or welcoming a place.  Plus our city population in decline, the aging demographics of Tulsa and the nation.  The changing demographics and growth projections for the nation as a whole, more older people than children in about 10-15 years, immigration slowing and aging. etc.

Seems odd at a time when we can look at demographics and see where things are going that we as a nation are becoming more unwelcoming of immigrants when the past projections show that the only way our population will be growing is with immigration. Cutting immigration will just mean cutting growth. I am like, "bring us your tired and huddled masses" lets integrate and educate them cause I want my business to grow and I need more customers not less to do that!
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2019, 10:03:18 am »


Some excerpts from the TW article:
I thought this was really interesting, why the decline in international students?  Tougher visa policies or better/cheaper opportunities closer to home?


I found the part about the massive decline in international students especially shocking. I looked into it and it is a nation-wide trend. It is going to hit TU harder than most universities because of how 20% of the student body was international while it will be down to less than 10% by the fall.


Overall world-wide, the number of international students are rising. Most western countries are seeing increases in international students (places like Germany, UK, France and Canada). The #1 reason is almost certainly tuition cost. The tuition prices in the US are so high, the cost of living increases in other places is cancelled out. If you get to choose between studying in some random place in the middle of the US vs Germany or France, which one sounds more alluring to a young person?

Trump is having an effect both with the view of how welcoming the country is and as far as visas being much more restrictive to try to make it where students cannot stick around after graduating. Also, students can get a 10 year ban for paperwork being messed up to no fault of their own. This is not good as we want the best and brightest from other countries moving and staying here to make our society better and more competitive.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2018/11/16/the-real-reason-international-students-are-fleeing-u-s-colleges-its-not-trump/#6881a23c7c1c

Universities were a $40 billion export, but that is dropping fast. The tuition rates were astronomical for foreign students and kept rising over the last decade (they pay on average triple what the average American student pays). It was a matter of time before the international education market caught up and foreign students just stopped paying those prices. Also, Saudi Arabia cut its scholarships significantly which is probably a big part of TU's drop. The value of the US education is the connection to the US job market and access to American companies and their high paying job opportunities. Without that option, international students are flocking to other countries that will allow them those options.  
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2019, 12:11:06 pm »

TU needs to do whatever it can to remain the well-respected university it is while also growing and becoming a bigger part of the Tulsa economy.  I look at similar private universities like DU in Denver, TCU in Fort Worth and Vanderbilt in Nashville that are double the size and as a result are huge economic engines for their respective cities.  Without a large public university Tulsa relies heavily on TU to supply companies with college graduates, in addition to OU, OSU and Arkansas.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2019, 12:36:52 pm »

As goes Tulsa's population and the nation, so must TU apparently.  Lots of rich and growing universities in other parts of the world (Arab & Asian) less reason to come here.  Then of course the Trump effect of the US not seeming to be as desirable or welcoming a place.  Plus our city population in decline, the aging demographics of Tulsa and the nation.  The changing demographics and growth projections for the nation as a whole, more older people than children in about 10-15 years, immigration slowing and aging. etc.

Seems odd at a time when we can look at demographics and see where things are going that we as a nation are becoming more unwelcoming of immigrants when the past projections show that the only way our population will be growing is with immigration. Cutting immigration will just mean cutting growth. I am like, "bring us your tired and huddled masses" lets integrate and educate them cause I want my business to grow and I need more customers not less to do that!

The only thing I disagree with is our nation being less welcoming to immigrants.  I believe we are still just as welcoming, but we actually have a CIC who is intent on enforcing immigration laws already on the books and ensuring orderly migration by stemming illegal border crossings.  Granted, there's plenty of hyperbole floating around to give the image we are less welcoming.

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2019, 03:34:10 pm »

The only thing I disagree with is our nation being less welcoming to immigrants.  I believe we are still just as welcoming, but we actually have a CIC who is intent on enforcing immigration laws already on the books and ensuring orderly migration by stemming illegal border crossings.  Granted, there's plenty of hyperbole floating around to give the image we are less welcoming.




That Forbes article I linked to argued that. Sure politics have a part to play, but the economic factors are far more significant. Universities had been growing their budgets without restraint, depending on an unsustainable model and international students paying full price. When the tuition is so expensive, it makes cost of living in Germany and France seem cheap, that is when you know you've gone to far. Then the jobs are a huge portion as well as almost all international students I talked to planned to stick around and work in the US for a while. Without that option, going through all of those hoops and paying those prices isn't worth it.

It is a shame to see such a massive part of our economy deteriorate so quickly by all of these various factors. This could play a huge role on how the US does in the coming decades. Lose influence over the young people of the world, and put more money and influence in the hands of Europe.
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2019, 04:06:59 pm »

The only thing I disagree with is our nation being less welcoming to immigrants.  I believe we are still just as welcoming, but we actually have a CIC who is intent on enforcing immigration laws already on the books and ensuring orderly migration by stemming illegal border crossings.  Granted, there's plenty of hyperbole floating around to give the image we are less welcoming.



Paper will not make you feel more welcome.  Rhetoric will, or will not.

I am all for enforcing the laws already on the books.  But thats not what the "rhetoric" and hyperbole floating about is screaming to the rest of the world.  

Even this statement (ensuring orderly migration by stemming illegal border crossings) is interesting.  Most people who are here illegally, got into the country legally. They got here legally through ports of entry, but became illegal by overstaying.  And many of those who do cross into the US illegally, come in through legal border crossings, not through some area that does not have a "Wall".  

Also, the immigration debate in the US while centered on illegal immigration from the south, is not the only rhetoric that is off-putting to the rest of the world. I think the current administration has bashed just about every foreign country at some time or another. (except for those with an autocratic bent) While "dog whistling" xenophobic and racist tropes, again off-putting to most of the free world.  

Unless you are from someplace truly bad. These days the US can appear to be a more chaotic, scary and frightening place than it used to be.
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2019, 10:15:08 pm »


Also, the immigration debate in the US while centered on illegal immigration from the south, is not the only rhetoric that is off-putting to the rest of the world. I think the current administration has bashed just about every foreign country at some time or another. (except for those with an autocratic bent) While "dog whistling" xenophobic and racist tropes, again off-putting to most of the free world.  


As giving as the United States is, we've been crapped on by just about every other nation, verbally, economically, and through physical force.  We've been bashed plenty.  Our kindness has been abused plenty.  I think that's what our current POTUS is reflecting.  We weren't attacked on 9/11/01 due to poor rhetoric about immigrants or a fight over illegal immigrants.  It was disrespect and a result of not really a fundamental understanding of how dangerous certain factions around the globe were.
 
While I agree with your statement about many illegals have over-stayed a legal visa, I'm no more privy to the data of illegal border crossings than anyone else is on here.  There must be a compelling reason to finish constructing our border wall aside from the assumed racism or xenophobia of POTUS Trump as interpreted by the MSM and talking heads like Rachel Madcow.

As much as I loathe Drumpf and most of his management style, he's been pretty damn bold where other Presidents relied on decorum and protocol and walking on egg shells.

Our own media lines up against leaders they don't like and the narrative the rest of the world hears is attacks via our own media which feed out his actions as all being bad.  But, that is our First Amendment at work.  

I have no idea if the media in Japan, Mexico, Canada, Sri Lanka, or Katmandu loves or hates Trump, nor what they say about him on a regular basis nor whether or not what they say is a result of their own conclusions or what they get from news feeds coming from our own media.

He's unconventional as all hell, he's a prick, and I'm not a fan of him personally.  But, he's making good on promises which is more than his Democrat and Republican predecessors can say.  The base which elected him seems to be quite pleased with him, I don't happen to be one of those people.  I don't care for much about his policies, but he may prove to be one of the more assertive Presidents since FDR when we look back on his administration 20 years down the road.  
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 10:42:32 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 10:29:27 am »

As expected some are not happy about this change: https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tu-officials-face-students-disgruntled-by-reorganization/article_927a04cc-5a96-58ba-9fe3-100e622416ae.html

I’d be curious to know if other similarly-sized private universities are having make similar decisions, or is this just a result of mismanagement at TU?  I definitely think TU should have engineering, business and technology as its focus but hate to completely lose the liberal arts programs.  I remember going to arts classes there when I was a kid and see that as part of being a well-rounded university.  
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 01:58:57 pm »

As expected some are not happy about this change: https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tu-officials-face-students-disgruntled-by-reorganization/article_927a04cc-5a96-58ba-9fe3-100e622416ae.html

I’d be curious to know if other similarly-sized private universities are having make similar decisions, or is this just a result of mismanagement at TU?  I definitely think TU should have engineering, business and technology as its focus but hate to completely lose the liberal arts programs.  I remember going to arts classes there when I was a kid and see that as part of being a well-rounded university.  

It's a nation-wide college issue that is hitting smaller universities harder, especially ones that had so many international students like TU. See OU's recent struggles and the backlash against the new president who is there to cut away the fat.

There will still be arts and most all liberal arts programs will remain. TU is reducing degree offerings from around 200 programs down to close to 100 and yet it only affects 6% of students (many of whom would very well have chosen another program had the options been limited before).

It is either TU makes drastic cuts or they eventually have to make even bigger more drastic cuts, or even risk shutting down certain larger departments completely. It sucks, but the students voted with which programs they chose to major in and the decisions are based on that along with student and faculty feedback.
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2019, 02:04:04 pm »

This will end TU's long effort to become an "elite" university.
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2019, 02:09:17 pm »

This will end TU's long effort to become an "elite" university.

How so? A lot of these changes are mimicing structural changes and cuts they've done at other universities.
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2019, 02:14:26 pm »

Why does TU have a Theatre or Russian Studies programs, but not Civil, Aerospace or Industrial Engineering? Those produce pretty high paying jobs that are in demand. They are focusing on engineering/business a bit more as a university, but retaining almost all liberal arts offerings they had before (while cutting graduate studies of many significant departments like Electrical Engineering and Geoscience). If they were really cutting all arts to benefit STEM, maybe they'd add some of the higher demand engineering options they currently lack and really cut out the fat. 

I'm not sure anyone's career is going to be too hampered because they had to get a Music Degree rather than a Classical Musical Composition degree from TU.
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 03:45:17 pm »

^Exactly. The reason I don't have my masters in Civil is because I would have had to drive to Stillwater multiple times a week to take classes. Surprising that no university in the Tulsa metro offers any kind of civil engineering coursework. I know all the civil firms around here have been scrambling to find people for the last few years.

A lot of the reaction to this announcement seems to be a battle of perspectives. People need to adjust their idea of what an "elite" university is for the modern age. The University of Wisconsin produces more top CEOs than any other university in the world for a reason. It doesn't take a person long to figure out that a lot of these fancy Ivy League graduates are full of hot air and their parent's money.

I don't know all the details about how well this is being implemented, but I'm glad they are taking steps now before they are forced to later.
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 10:15:27 am »

How so? A lot of these changes are mimicing structural changes and cuts they've done at other universities.

Can you give us any examples?
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