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October 19, 2018, 07:52:38 pm
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Conan71
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« Reply #240 on: January 25, 2018, 10:12:02 pm »

A bridge at 41st makes no sense. Asking the state to configure the new highway, service roads and interchange so there is better access to the area from the I-44 bridge is reasonable.

Tone it down man.  Your inner conservative is showing.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #241 on: January 26, 2018, 09:44:32 am »

The area you speak of is called "Garden City" which is a misnomer if there ever was one.  It's slowly falling apart house-by-house and trailer-by-trailer.  I'm willing to bet at some point in the next 30 years all that area will be either green space purchased up by the refinery to the north or further industrialized from operations to the south.

AngieB is a life-long west-sider.  I have had family who lived there and I worked there for 13 years and maintained many friendships with people who lived "over there" literally my entire life.

I put "over there" in quotes for a reason:

The west side enjoys it's own identity and sense of community but it's often been treated as a lesser part of Tulsa much like areas of north Tulsa and the barrio in east Tulsa.  Some people enjoy the sense of isolation and some feel as if they are cut off from the rest of the city in a way.  Don't take it personal, but your comments would seem a bit condescending to a true west-sider.  I'm not trying to speak for Angie, but just explaining the cultural thought as I know it.

And I get your point about the bridge, in terms of "structural needs" it's pretty far down the list of priorities.  In terms of feeling connected to the rest of the community, I can see why people would like to have it.  JMO, it's a want not a need.


Has been that way since 1965 and before.  There have been many changes and a lot of places are gone - especially that section on Southwest Blvd between Billie Ray's and Ollie's.   I suspect it will be a slow ongoing slide just because so many are too poor to rehab their houses and mobiles are just tissue paper waiting to get wet and disintegrate anyway....

I did notice last weekend when we went through that there were some houses being worked over.  Don't know if it is new people moving in to re-gentrify or if the  same owners doing some work on their place.  Was nice to see - there is some interesting architecture there.

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
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« Reply #242 on: January 26, 2018, 10:12:08 am »

When I brought up the 41st St bridge I meant it as a long term goal/idea for creating an advanced manufacturing/R&D cluster in the area of 41st & Elwood.  It's an industrial/warehouse area but is directly across the river from midtown with easy access to I-44 and Hwy 75 as well as a rail line.  If a company needed a large area for that type of operation it could be an option and would be made more desirable by a link across the river.

BTW the bridge is part of the river master plan http://riverprojectstulsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/REV2-SectionB-Full%20Size-Base-1.jpg
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2018, 01:58:57 pm »

When I brought up the 41st St bridge I meant it as a long term goal/idea for creating an advanced manufacturing/R&D cluster in the area of 41st & Elwood.  It's an industrial/warehouse area but is directly across the river from midtown with easy access to I-44 and Hwy 75 as well as a rail line.  If a company needed a large area for that type of operation it could be an option and would be made more desirable by a link across the river.

BTW the bridge is part of the river master plan http://riverprojectstulsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/REV2-SectionB-Full%20Size-Base-1.jpg



Whoa...!!    We got a PLAN???   How did THAT happen...Huh

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #244 on: January 29, 2018, 11:01:17 am »

If we build it, they will come.

Basically, that's the idea.  We build a bridge and then hope it attracts "advanced manufacturers" to the area.  But there are hundreds of acres in Tulsa that could be home to advanced manufacturing that don't require a new bridge.  Why would adding a bridge here convince someone to build a plant or open a manufacturing facility they otherwise wouldn't build in Tulsa? It's purely speculative.  I'm not vehemently opposed, I just don't see the infrastructure investment returning much to the City and we already can't afford what we have.

It's like the magic freeway that will open up development before the previous magic freeway has filled in its development zone. Shall we count the empty industrial lots within a mile of the Gilcrease Expressway?  Or 44 to the east?  Or south of 412 in Sand Springs?   Along the Creek Turnpike?  I'm confident we can find more than 10 square miles of land with easy access and is available for advance manufacturing.  But this new turnpike out west/new bridge/whatever else, it will totally open up land for development. 

Quote
But if we build this bridge, they will come.  People will come. They'll come to Tulsa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up in your lobby not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for somewhere to develop.  "Of course, we won't mind if you build here," you'll say. "Tax incentives for every company". We'll pass over the money without even thinking about it, for it is money we have and money they want. And they'll walk out to the press conference; and present pretty plans while making all kinds of promises, jobs for everyone and tax revenue galore. They'll find promises are easy to make and designs are always pretty. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces.

I'm truly sorry, I couldn't help myself.
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AngieB
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« Reply #245 on: January 29, 2018, 02:25:16 pm »

The area you speak of is called "Garden City" which is a misnomer if there ever was one.  It's slowly falling apart house-by-house and trailer-by-trailer.  I'm willing to bet at some point in the next 30 years all that area will be either green space purchased up by the refinery to the north or further industrialized from operations to the south.

AngieB is a life-long west-sider.  I have had family who lived there and I worked there for 13 years and maintained many friendships with people who lived "over there" literally my entire life.

I put "over there" in quotes for a reason:

The west side enjoys it's own identity and sense of community but it's often been treated as a lesser part of Tulsa much like areas of north Tulsa and the barrio in east Tulsa.  Some people enjoy the sense of isolation and some feel as if they are cut off from the rest of the city in a way.  Don't take it personal, but your comments would seem a bit condescending to a true west-sider.  I'm not trying to speak for Angie, but just explaining the cultural thought as I know it.

And I get your point about the bridge, in terms of "structural needs" it's pretty far down the list of priorities.  In terms of feeling connected to the rest of the community, I can see why people would like to have it.  JMO, it's a want not a need.

You can speak for me anytime, Conan!
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patric
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« Reply #246 on: February 26, 2018, 07:10:56 pm »

Georgia may have taken themselves out of the HQ2 contest.

Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens to Block Tax Cut for Delta Over NRA Split
http://time.com/5176731/casey-cagle-delta-tax-cut-nra/

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #247 on: February 27, 2018, 08:52:34 am »

Wait, you mean politicians overtly trying to punish and reward companies based on politics might be considered a negative thing?  So if a company refuses to support a donor of yours, you shouldn't punish the company?  I'm just not getting it.  Let me try again, you're telling me that politicians shouldn't use their power and State resources to pick winners and losers in the economy based on whether or not that corporation is willing to tow the political line?

Crazy talk.
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« Reply #248 on: February 27, 2018, 08:54:07 am »

Wait, you mean politicians overtly trying to punish and reward companies based on politics might be considered a negative thing?  So if a company refuses to support a donor of yours, you shouldn't punish the company?  I'm just not getting it.  Let me try again, you're telling me that politicians shouldn't use their power and State resources to pick winners and losers in the economy based on whether or not that corporation is willing to tow the political line?

Crazy talk.

Yeah, and considering how many people Delta employs in Georgia...might not be the most prudent thing to do.  I mean, who's to say they wouldn't pack up and move to some other state?  Anyone remember GE and Connecticut?
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« Reply #249 on: February 27, 2018, 11:23:41 am »

Yeah, and considering how many people Delta employs in Georgia...might not be the most prudent thing to do.  I mean, who's to say they wouldn't pack up and move to some other state?  Anyone remember GE and Connecticut?

If they simply did it because Georgia refused to give in to corporate extortion, I'd say good for Georgia and bemoan the company.  But if the company is denied something because they did not go along with the politics of the governor... that's inappropriate. 

I'd actually be in favor of a law at the Federal level or an agreement among the states setting guidelines for what and when it is proper for governments to give their people's money to corporations.  In the current game, its a race to the bottom as far as the tax payers are concerned as whoever gives away the most "wins."  On a national or even regional scale, it's not beneficial to the state or the people.  Nor is it good for the small business who cannot extort welfare from the taxpayers. Heck, its not even good for big businesses that are already established in the area (unless they choose to threaten to leave).

There is a perceived benefit to the "winner" locale of the incentive race, but if we changed the game we could all still play it in a way that is less destructive to the tax payers, small businesses, and the competitive market.  I don't know, maybe try to attract them with solid education, low crime, good infrastructure, reliable transit, and a skilled workforce.  Some incentives do make sense, but the current climate seems to be a nonproductive market irregularity we could do without.
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Ed W
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« Reply #250 on: February 27, 2018, 11:39:51 am »

When politicians give money to business, it's an incentive. When business give money to politicians, it's a bribe?
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Ed

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #251 on: February 27, 2018, 12:36:09 pm »

Georgia may have taken themselves out of the HQ2 contest.

Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens to Block Tax Cut for Delta Over NRA Split
http://time.com/5176731/casey-cagle-delta-tax-cut-nra/




I started to avoid Delta long, long ago...first when they slid so badly on service, then even more so when they started sending their Gestapo to beat passengers.  Who needs that carp...?

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"So he brandished a gun, never shot anyone or anything right?"  --TeeDub, 17 Feb 2018.

I donít share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone.
Conan71
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« Reply #252 on: February 27, 2018, 01:01:15 pm »

If they simply did it because Georgia refused to give in to corporate extortion, I'd say good for Georgia and bemoan the company.  But if the company is denied something because they did not go along with the politics of the governor... that's inappropriate.  

I'd actually be in favor of a law at the Federal level or an agreement among the states setting guidelines for what and when it is proper for governments to give their people's money to corporations.  In the current game, its a race to the bottom as far as the tax payers are concerned as whoever gives away the most "wins."  On a national or even regional scale, it's not beneficial to the state or the people.  Nor is it good for the small business who cannot extort welfare from the taxpayers. Heck, its not even good for big businesses that are already established in the area (unless they choose to threaten to leave).

There is a perceived benefit to the "winner" locale of the incentive race, but if we changed the game we could all still play it in a way that is less destructive to the tax payers, small businesses, and the competitive market.  I don't know, maybe try to attract them with solid education, low crime, good infrastructure, reliable transit, and a skilled workforce.  Some incentives do make sense, but the current climate seems to be a nonproductive market irregularity we could do without.

I'm generally in agreement with your statement but it is beneficial to the people who end up with high paying jobs with full benefits even though they may be shafted as a taxpayer by the corporate welfare.  I doubt that is on their mind when they are going through the hiring process and I doubt many people fail to apply because it offends their civic principles.

In my day job (I'm not quite sure which one that is anymore since I have so many titles now) I have to mentally balance what is good for business and my obligations to the company I represent vs. when I think a project is sticking it to the tax payers because of unnecessary items put into bid packages or when I think the government is pissing money into infrastructure it doesn't need to or putting it in the right places.  I have direct orders to respond to every inquiry and to try and close as many of them as possible.  I suppose someday when I'm retired I can stick 100% to my principles as a tax payer.  Until then, I can just hold my nose and make the deal happen.
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« Reply #253 on: February 27, 2018, 02:10:31 pm »

Yeah, and considering how many people Delta employs in Georgia...might not be the most prudent thing to do.  I mean, who's to say they wouldn't pack up and move to some other state?  Anyone remember GE and Connecticut?

Can you imagine the bidding war for the Delta HQ and hub? Beyond the jobs, overnight a city would have connections to every major market in the world for all their other companies, and future companies. The bidding war would be immense.
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« Reply #254 on: February 27, 2018, 02:24:04 pm »

Can you imagine the bidding war for the Delta HQ and hub? Beyond the jobs, overnight a city would have connections to every major market in the world for all their other companies, and future companies. The bidding war would be immense.

The wooing has already started...

Atlanta Journal:  Birmingham, New York woo Delta headquarters amid NRA-tax break fight in Georgia

https://www.ajc.com/business/birmingham-and-new-york-woo-delta-headquarters-airline-faces-political-turmoil-georgia-over-nra/Minv2ROyNVzcGItY7yE1OI/




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