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November 17, 2017, 03:25:04 pm
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Author Topic: All Souls Moving Downtown - 6th/7th Frankfort/Kenosa  (Read 3417 times)
erfalf
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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2017, 11:06:40 am »


As for contributing, then you lose the economic activity based on all the criminal/medical needs.  Fewer crimes mean reduced court system activity.  Reduced police enforcement needs.  Reduced fire department requirements to fight fires in abandoned buildings.  Less insurance company business activity.  Less replacement purchasing activity.  Fewer alarm/protection economic activities.  And probably dozens of other impacts I haven't thought of just off the top of my head.  If you put these people in stable housing and get them making a minimum wage type job, all that goes away and the net economic activity would likely be reduced enough to be noticed on every "screen".  This could put thousands of people out of work and take millions out of the economy...that's why we still have the "war on drugs" as economic stimulus plan...





The Broken Window Fallocy
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2017, 02:15:26 pm »

The Broken Window Fallocy


Yes!!  You DO understand!!  And yet, still a Trumpy...   And still the entire basis for our "war on drugs" for the last 100 years!

Bureaucracies are living entities.  And all living entities have 2 goals - survive and grow.  If one has a plan to truly eliminate a problem that would reduce the flow of money around that problem, it will never be solved.  A VERY LARGE portion of our law enforcement efforts is one of those.   

Medical treatment is another - why would anyone actually ever cure a problem that can provide an ongoing revenue stream indefinitely.  Never cure in days/weeks/months what you can sell treatments for months/years/decades.  Well, except maybe for certain important people - did you notice how Jimmy Carter went from stage 4 cancer - his body riddled through - to cancer free in just a few months?

Tin horn dictators - take one out on occasion and one can always drum up support to go after the next newly demonized one or group.  Increase military spending - put people into much more conservative postures than they normally would due to the FUD...fear, uncertainty, doubt - it's the entire movement of money stream of consciousness.

Or illegal aliens - simple...no, actually a trivial solution to the so-called "problem".  If you really believe it is a problem!  Which it isn't really.  But if you apply the simple cure, there is no movement of money, so no opportunity for enrichment.

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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2017, 03:09:48 pm »

Please try to refrain from bringing national politics into development threads.  Certain aspect of national politics will inevitably affect the discussion, but lets hope sound judgment can be used to prevent the development section from descending into pure politics.  Please, we have an entire section for politics.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2017, 07:16:02 am »

I'm actually a fan of the broken window theory. 

I see it in action.  If its OK for my neighbor to park in the lawn, then I can too.  If there are several people doing it, I shouldn't bother to talk to them about it.  My grass hasn't been mowed in a week, but what the hell... the guy down the street hasn't mowed it in a month.  Look there's already some trash and shopping carts sitting in the street, so who cares if I throw my couch on the curb too? Hell, this neighborhood already looks pretty run down, no ones going to notice if I bust out this street light or graffiti this stop sign.  Man, this neighborhood looks like crap - no one is going to bother calling the police if we . . .

There's a line somewhere that worrying about "broken windows" becomes a police state, but I think the theory itself is sound.  I don't think less affluent neighborhoods are more prone to crime and vandalism simply because the residents have less money. I think its part of a slide, when lowlifes think no one cares they get emboldened.

Life in a neighborhood can certainly help. More people in their front yards, talking their dogs, or their kids biking around the block.  Or, in the case of a downtown neighborhood, a place that draws people in at various times of the day.  Like maybe an active church.

Poof! Just like that, thread back on topic.   Smiley
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Tulsasaurus Rex
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2017, 07:25:27 am »

Actually, c_f, you're talking about the broken window theory from criminology. Erfalf was talking about Bastiat's fallacy of the broken window, an insight into economics. A common mistake, but they're totally different things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:30:39 am by Tulsasaurus Rex » Logged
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2017, 07:39:27 am »

I will have to correct my ignorance on that.  I was just so dang excited to get the topic back on track.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2017, 08:15:23 am »

I will have to correct my ignorance on that.  I was just so dang excited to get the topic back on track.


What??

Back on track??


Well, I for one am looking forward to the move downtown just to see what it can bring to the area - kinda bleak right now... 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 08:21:16 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2017, 08:48:22 am »

As an outsider with no vested interest other than really liking the look of current Church building - I have looked around the web site and re-read this thread and still don't have a clear idea of exactly why they want to move?   Is it just a parking motivation?  How is a downtown location going to improve anything about their culture??   Seems to me like they are going from a dynamic, human oriented area to a kind of cultural "desert"...well maybe not desert, but a step away from the more direct human contact they would seem to have in the middle of the neighborhood...

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2017, 09:13:57 am »

From my understanding, they are very limited in their current location re: zoning/ordinances. Whether that includes renovations, expansion/additions, construction, etc.

Downtown currently has no overlay, so they have free reign for now
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2017, 09:48:01 am »

From my understanding, they are very limited in their current location re: zoning/ordinances. Whether that includes renovations, expansion/additions, construction, etc.

Downtown currently has no overlay, so they have free reign for now


I can't imagine that being a problem for a church - look at what all the mega-churches have done in the Tulsa and surrounding areas...


If that is the case, then what/who would be blocking them?   I could see how evangelical extremist right wingers might look at Unitarians as less of a church than theirs - they have different beliefs from many evangelicals - but I see them pretty much the opposite of that - especially the thought they try to be the church OF Jesus rather than a church ABOUT Jesus!   To me, that is a "Salvation Army" type thought that I like a lot.


I really hope there is no such political component to this decision to move...given Oklahoma's past, I am not optimistic.


Which puts my thoughts back down the Bastiat rabbit hole - opportunity costs of new building versus upgrades to old bldg, parking, etc...

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2017, 10:05:26 am »

They are hemmed in.   I live very close in behind them.   For all major events, including standard Sunday services, people have to park all around in the surrounding neighborhood, and have to search spots, etc.    I don't think there is any local resistance to the church, but there are capacity issues.

Also,  I can see how they might think that taking their church downtown might help spread the word and grow.   They are not a regular church, and have had recent services such as "Easter for Humanists" and such.  An eclectic local populace could be a great thing for them.   My neighbor attends there, I'll ask her what her thoughts are.
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« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2017, 10:20:53 am »

They are hemmed in.   I live very close in behind them.   For all major events, including standard Sunday services, people have to park all around in the surrounding neighborhood, and have to search spots, etc.    I don't think there is any local resistance to the church, but there are capacity issues.

Also,  I can see how they might think that taking their church downtown might help spread the word and grow.   They are not a regular church, and have had recent services such as "Easter for Humanists" and such.  An eclectic local populace could be a great thing for them.   My neighbor attends there, I'll ask her what her thoughts are.

There have been issues with the neighborhood, specifically when it comes to tearing down houses to expand the church.
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« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2017, 10:24:28 am »

There have been issues with the neighborhood, specifically when it comes to tearing down houses to expand the church.

Ah, well, there you go.  Hence my "hemmed in" comment.  That is understandable.  I also would not support taking out existing homes to expand the church.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2017, 10:41:25 am »

Ah, well, there you go.  Hence my "hemmed in" comment.  That is understandable.  I also would not support taking out existing homes to expand the church.


Tough call.   Seems like the 6 houses on their west side would be a modest loss to the neighborhood, if the people who own them were willing to sell.  Would provide quite a bit of room for expansion, but if they are growing very fast, it would only be a stopgap.  I hope they don't go all "mega-churchy"....they seem to be a couple thousand strong now. That is getting big!


Rampant destruction of the neighborhood like Broken Arrow is doing to their old town area would be a bad thing!

 

« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 10:43:27 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2017, 11:20:58 am »


Tough call.   Seems like the 6 houses on their west side would be a modest loss to the neighborhood, if the people who own them were willing to sell.  Would provide quite a bit of room for expansion, but if they are growing very fast, it would only be a stopgap.  I hope they don't go all "mega-churchy"....they seem to be a couple thousand strong now. That is getting big!

Rampant destruction of the neighborhood like Broken Arrow is doing to their old town area would be a bad thing!

Interesting.   Just had a quick look at those six houses.  the church already owns five of the six.   That last guy may be a hold-out?
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