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November 21, 2017, 01:08:59 pm
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Author Topic: Big boxes are crumbling around us  (Read 4095 times)
BKDotCom
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« on: March 09, 2017, 10:49:51 am »

Sears at 21st & Yale.
Macy's at the Promenade Mall  
Eastland Toy's-R-Us (who knew that was even still open)
JCPenny's is closing 140 stores (Promenade?...  Tulsa isn't among the 40 at greatest risk list)
Staples is closing 70 stores (Harvard loc?)

March 14th:  Gordman's announces it's closing all stores

May 5:  Gander Mtn closes at "The Walk @ Tulsa Hills

Now, more than ever, we need smart infill over new / sprawl.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:23:33 pm by BKDotCom » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2017, 11:35:58 am »

Exactly why the REI deal at Helmerich Park is such a failure.  Why sell our parkland when there are plenty of better retail locations all over the city, with more to come as big box stores continue to close.

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Townsend
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2017, 11:47:46 am »

Exactly why the REI deal at Helmerich Park is such a failure.  Why sell our parkland when there are plenty of better retail locations all over the city, with more to come as big box stores continue to close.


I'll have to assume that the Tulsa metro populous would be more likely to go to the REI big box located near the river over the old Sears location at 21st and Yale.

I'm certain the developer prefers a go-forward with a cheap land deal and infrastructure assist from the city.

This is the Tulsa way.  (Sean Connery accent)
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BKDotCom
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2017, 11:55:02 am »

I'll have to assume that the Tulsa metro populous would be more likely to go to the REI big box located near the river over the old Sears location at 21st and Yale.

I'm certain the developer prefers a go-forward with a cheap land deal and infrastructure assist from the city.

This is the Tulsa way.  (Sean Connery accent)

Ironic, since everyone thinks REI is cool because they only think of the flagship stores... which happen to be repurposed old buildings.   Tulsa is getting a repurposed park.
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 11:57:38 am »

It would be hard for me to open a big box retail store in a location that had failed at hosting a failed big box retailer.

I think we need new ideas for these locations.

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.

OU-Tulsa could operate in the Promenade easily. Convert the Macy's to classrooms.

We need new ideas.
    
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 12:11:11 pm »

It would be hard for me to open a big box retail store in a location that had failed at hosting a failed big box retailer.

I think we need new ideas for these locations.

The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.

OU-Tulsa could operate in the Promenade easily. Convert the Macy's to classrooms.

We need new ideas.

Hotel at 21st & Yale is a good idea.  I fear Promenade's days as an enclosed mall are numbered.  It could be converted back to an outdoor mall with potentially 1 or 2 anchors (Dillard's and maybe an H&M?) with the rest of the space a mix of offices and expansion for OU along Yale.  Ironic that it was once an outdoor shopping center.  Look at Belmar in Lakewood, CO where this was done successfully.  And they also have a big box power center across the street just like Southroads.
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Conan71
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 12:54:35 pm »

Hotel at 21st & Yale is a good idea.  I fear Promenade's days as an enclosed mall are numbered.  It could be converted back to an outdoor mall with potentially 1 or 2 anchors (Dillard's and maybe an H&M?) with the rest of the space a mix of offices and expansion for OU along Yale.  Ironic that it was once an outdoor shopping center.  Look at Belmar in Lakewood, CO where this was done successfully.  And they also have a big box power center across the street just like Southroads.

Another high traffic area for REI if they are planning to do their layup slab dreck model here would be the SW corner of 71st & Memorial since it’s getting a complete overhaul.

I don’t know if you’ve followed the thread before on this, but not only was Promenade an outdoor mall as “Southland” shopping center, Southroads across the street is an indoor mall converted to a power center format.  Quite an irony.

I believe REI could do well in Utica Square.  I find it interesting H & P has foregone the rent from Petty’s and Miss Jackson’s now for over a year while that ground sits empty.  I’m sure Mr. Helmerich has to be scratching his head over the decisions his kids have been making since he passed on.

So, has a replacement not been found for Miss Jackson’s or Petty’s or has there been an announcement and I’ve just missed it?
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RecycleMichael
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 02:50:02 pm »

Another high traffic area for REI if they are planning to do their layup slab dreck model here would be the SW corner of 71st & Memorial since it’s getting a complete overhaul.

That will be an interesting development to follow.

Large pad with high traffic counts. New large grocery and new restaurants on out parcels.

It is everything you want a redevelopment to include. If it fails, retail will always fail on that corner.
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 03:58:52 pm »


The Sears spot on Yale would be the ideal location for a big hotel. Expo Square is filled with out of state vehicles every weekend and the only option is a place with small rooms.
    

+1.

Did I read earlier the tiny Expo Motel had some sort of protective arrangement?

EDIT:  apparently tied to the horseracing there.  A repost:


Ralph L. Jones Jr.'s management company will be paid a $215,000 settlement because Tulsa County officials will not allow the Tulsa developer to build a second hotel at the fairgrounds.

Records show that American Management Inc. had an option to lease 2.5 acres for a second hotel on a mutually agreeable site near Gate 12 on 21st Street. But fairgrounds officials and AMI could never agree on a specific location.

Jones owns and operates the Microtel that was built at the fairgrounds in 1999.

"Granted, it said in a mutually agreeable place, but mutually agreeable means you can't be unreasonable, and the fairgrounds said we don't want to build a hotel anywhere out here," said Tulsa County Public Facilities Authority member Bob Dick. "I believe in good faith. I think when we signed the original contract, that was probably what was envisioned. I think that contract had some value and I didn't want to test it in a court of law."

AMI president Chris Knapp informed Expo Square in March 2003 that the ideal site for a second hotel would be in front of the Exposition Center on a long, narrow strip of land encompassing most of the parking lot.

Dick said having a hotel built in front of the Exposition Center's facade wouldn't work for aesthetic reasons.

"I just didn't think it was in our best interest to give up 21/2 acres of prime parking right next to the Expo building," said Expo Square President Denny Tuttle.

The May 1997 agreement predated a master plan that was later developed for Expo Square that focuses on it being a family entertainment and events center with an emphasis on livestock facilities. Since then, Dick said, the whole landscape at the fairgrounds has changed.

"The highest, best use of land, I don't feel would have been another hotel. That's kind of our entry way," Dick said.

As a result of the settlement, AMI will be paid $215,000 and a second hotel will no longer be an option. AMI will pay $65,000 in past-due rent on the hotel that it withheld from the fairgrounds during the dispute.

The fairgrounds receives $42,200 annual rent for the hotel, plus a percentage of gross room revenues. The fairgrounds was projected to earn about $100,000 a year, but actual reve nues have ranged between $69,000 to about $98,000 a year, records show.

Jones' financial relationship with the fairgrounds is complex. Jones put up the money to construct the $2.1 million simulcasting facility at Fair Meadows and in return was allowed to build a $4 million, 103-room hotel on the fairgrounds.

His company holds food and beverage rights from the sports bar in the simulcast facility and retains the $2 admission revenues to pay the debt on the building.

AMI owns the simulcast building but leases the land from the Public Facilities Authority. Tom Hilborne, the authority's attorney, said the lease was transferred in January 1998 to Fair Meadows Racing and Sports Bar LLC, which was signed by Jones as manager. A limited liability company does not have to disclose its members.

Jones is listed as an officer of the not-for-profit Revival America Association. The group's Web site posts the same address as the simulcasting facility.

AMI also owns the hotel building and pays a lease to the fairgrounds for the land. AMI records list Knapp as president, Carl P. Hall as vice president and Audrey Williams as secretary. Tuttle said AMI assigned the hotel lease to Jasper Development, which is also an LLC. Knapp signed as president in that agreement.

Jones' proposal to build the Microtel was controversial at the time because the Public Facilities Authority did not seek competitive proposals from other developers. Jones was campaign manager in Dick's unsuccessful bid for mayor of Tulsa in 1994. Jones has been one of Dick's top political contributors in the past.

But Dick said that Jones' building of a simulcast facility kept the fairgrounds from closing its doors during hard financial times. Fairgrounds buildings were in poor condition. The racing simulcast operation was previously run out of the old Trade Center.

"The simulcast facility is what kept the doors open to the fairgrounds for a long time. Now with the improvements we're making, other things are starting to kick in, but had we not had a simulcasting facility, there was talk of shutting down a lot of venues and reducing a number of shows we had out there because we were losing money on them," Dick said.


http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=5347.msg8970#msg8970


« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 09:40:25 pm by patric » Logged

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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 04:54:10 pm »

1)
REI should be a tenant in the new Santa Fe Square project.  If stores like REI and Apple want marquee locations, and Elliot is trying to bring marquee shopping back to downtown Tulsa, it seems to me like a natural fit.  The age of power center retail is passing.  Plus part of the magic of those sexy brands like REI and Apple and Bonobos is their preference for downtown stores as a branding exercise. 

In really big cities you're seeing national chain store retail booming downtown, even though the stores lose money.  The value is in being a showroom and advertising for online shoppers rather than actual sales per SF.  I wonder if that's something we'll see with Santa Fe Square.  In my dreamworld that becomes Boston Avenue. 

2) those failing big box power centers take up an enormous amount of space.  What will Tulsa do once the 41st and Yale area is entirely vacant?  The buildings are crappy, windowless, and enormous and can't really be repurposed.  The site probably requires environmental remediation, and it's big enough to fit far more apartments and housing than the Tulsa market can possibly absorb.  It's a problem that every city that grew post-WWII is going to have to figure out. 
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2017, 07:59:19 pm »



What will Tulsa do once the 41st and Yale area is entirely vacant?
 

Most likely:
a) Abandon more public park land and sell it cheap for run-of-the-mill private development;
b) Install more glaring acorn lights;
c) Rename more streets after Civil War era photographers or other people who have nothing to do with Tulsa's history;
d) Rip up some more perfectly good sidewalks and replace them with rough, faux-brick pavers; and
e) Widen more streets.

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Conan71
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2017, 08:48:38 pm »

Most likely:
a) Abandon more public park land and sell it cheap for run-of-the-mill private development;
b) Install more glaring acorn lights;
c) Rename more streets after Civil War era photographers or other people who have nothing to do with Tulsa's history;
d) Rip up some more perfectly good sidewalks and replace them with rough, faux-brick pavers; and
e) Widen more streets.



Your cynicism is well-justified I'm afraid.  Hell, it's not even really cynicism, just the reality decades of short-sighted development practices have bestowed upon us Tulsans.
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johrasephoenix
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 10:43:01 pm »

There really is nothing more depressing than derelict big box.  It feels almost like an abandoned mine - a company comes in, hoovers up all the value, and then leaves behind its mess for the public sector to try and clean up. 
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Bamboo World
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 10:47:54 pm »



There really is nothing more depressing than derelict big box. 


A derelict big box on an extra wide and re-named street with acorn lights and faux-brick pavers around it is more depressing than a plain old run-of-the-mill derelict big box.

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BKDotCom
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2017, 09:03:35 am »

A derelict big box on an extra wide and re-named street with acorn lights and faux-brick pavers around it is more depressing than a plain old run-of-the-mill derelict big box.

Don't forget to raise residential property assessed values.    As someone that lives very close to Promenade mall, I'd like to know why I just got a notice that my home's assessed value went up 13%.   Apparently abandoned/derelict malls are a raise property values.  Who knew.   (you know you're an adult when you're going to to visit city hall to contest your property value)
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