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November 19, 2017, 07:59:30 pm
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Author Topic: Tulsa as a "Sanctuary City"  (Read 1737 times)
erfalf
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 11:54:27 am »

Double post. Sorry. And started a new page. Doubly sorry.
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 12:25:05 pm »

Generally those that opposed legislation similar to those passed in Oklahoma (and other righty states) argue that the federal government essentially must not mean to pass those laws since they don't enforce them strongly. Stands to reason too that when laws like ours come along the federal government itself is acting against these laws, when in most cases, they are basically reiterating federal law or slight variations of it. I don't know how it can get more contradictory than that.

My stance on pretty much anything has been if you don't like the rules, change the rules, don't just thumb your nose at them. If we become a society of lawlessness, that's not good for anyone.

I guess I should always qualify where I'm at on something, as a reference for any argument I might make.  In this case, I am not in favor of sanctuary cities.  I am for solid boarders (but "the wall" is stupid..) and I don't want to see over-zealous deportations, etc, but I do think that state officials have to cooperate with the Feds on immigration.

My broader point/argument though is more along the lines of your position above of "if you don't like the rules, change the rules".   The question is, who should change the rules? And given the separation of powers from state and Fed, how much does the state actually have to help the Feds if they don't want to?  For example,  can CO legalize pot within it's borders, even though it is on the Federal banned narcotics list?  I would argue yes, based on it being a purely internal CO law and not subject to the commerce clause, but I'm not a lawyer.  In the same vein, does CA actually have to help the feds on immigration?  (Forgetting whether they should, do they have to?)

US immigration policy and law is one big hairy mess, and that is the underlying problem.   But, like healthcare, it has become a topic that neither side can (or is willing too) sit down and come to a rational and pragmatic solution.  Until then, I think these arguments about sanctuary cities and similar help keep the fires burning hot enough to maybe someday force a reasonable conclusion.



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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2017, 01:30:48 pm »


US immigration policy and law is one big hairy mess, and that is the underlying problem.   But, like healthcare, it has become a topic that neither side can (or is willing too) sit down and come to a rational and pragmatic solution.  Until then, I think these arguments about sanctuary cities and similar help keep the fires burning hot enough to maybe someday force a reasonable conclusion.



The biggest problem is that no one can figure out how to monetize the rational pragmatic solution.  And if the so-called "problem" is solved, who is gonna pick the fruits and veggies and do the hard manual labor at below half price rates that they can pay now??


Adopt my plan and the large majority of illegals will leave - probably in less than a couple months.  And next time you buy strawberries, instead of $4 a carton, expect about $12.


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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

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patric
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2017, 02:25:41 pm »


My broader point/argument though is more along the lines of your position above of "if you don't like the rules, change the rules".   The question is, who should change the rules? And given the separation of powers from state and Fed, how much does the state actually have to help the Feds if they don't want to?  For example,  can CO legalize pot within it's borders, even though it is on the Federal banned narcotics list?  I would argue yes, based on it being a purely internal CO law and not subject to the commerce clause, but I'm not a lawyer.  In the same vein, does CA actually have to help the feds on immigration?  (Forgetting whether they should, do they have to?)


Following that example, Pruitt thinks states rights rule when it comes to Big Energy but not Mary Jane.  Go figure.

Sometimes the law is wrong, and there isnt an obvious path to correct it outside of flat-out disobedience. 
Just ask Jesus  Wink
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2017, 08:39:20 am »


Following that example, Pruitt thinks states rights rule when it comes to Big Energy but not Mary Jane.  Go figure.

Sometimes the law is wrong, and there isnt an obvious path to correct it outside of flat-out disobedience. 
Just ask Jesus  Wink


True.

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Breadburner
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2017, 05:49:14 am »


And release the next day...

Catch and release - kinda like Bassmasters...


Nope...Without bond....
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patric
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2017, 10:22:52 am »

The gentleman arrested Thursday and tried before Pontius Pilate had a troubled background.

Born (possibly out of wedlock?) in a stable, this jobless thirty-something of Middle Eastern origin had had previous run-ins with local authorities for disturbing the peace, and had become increasingly associated with the members of a fringe religious group. He spent the majority of his time in the company of sex workers and criminals.

He had had prior run-ins with local authorities — most notably, an incident of vandalism in a community center when he wrecked the tables of several licensed money-lenders and bird-sellers. He had used violent language, too, claiming that he could destroy a gathering place and rebuild it.

At the time of his arrest, he had not held a fixed residence for years. Instead, he led an itinerant lifestyle, staying at the homes of friends and advocating the redistribution of wealth.

He had come to the attention of the authorities more than once for his unauthorized distribution of food, disruptive public behavior, and participation in farcical aquatic ceremonies.

Some say that his brutal punishment at the hands of the state was out of proportion to and unrelated to any of these incidents in his record.

But after all, he was no angel.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2017/04/12/crucified-man-had-prior-run-in-with-authorities
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2017, 10:53:34 am »

Read that, and this popped up in my head:

"Long hair, beard and sandals, and a funky bunch of friends
Reckon we'd just nail him up, If he came down again"


Jesus Was a Capricorn - Kris Kristofferson

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patric
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2017, 10:30:53 am »

TULSA, Oklahoma - A small protest is happening weekly outside the Tulsa County Jail.

The "New Sanctuary Network Tulsa" opposes the sheriff housing inmates for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, an agency the protesters claim is arresting undocumented people, in Tulsa County, who haven't otherwise broken the law.

"What's happening is that you have people in our community who have been arrested, many of them years ago, the situation has been adjudicated and ICE enforcement gets their names and just go around and collect them," said Scott Carter with New Sanctuary Tulsa.

The protesters plan to keep meeting outside the jail every Thursday at noon.

The Tulsa County Sheriff's Office says only inmates arrested and booked on other charges are checked for immigration status.
http://www.newson6.com/story/35881943/small-protests-becoming-routine-at-tulsa-co-jail

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TeeDub
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2017, 11:51:12 am »


I agree.   Some laws were just meant to be broken.   Laws that don't benefit me suck.
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patric
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2017, 05:26:42 pm »

I agree.   Some laws were just meant to be broken.   Laws that don't benefit me suck.

May I point out that the entire Christianity movement was based on someone who broke the law?
...and then there were the founders of our country in contempt of their King...

Please forgive me if I forgo posting a meme of Jesus wearing an American flag.
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"Tulsa will lay off police and firemen before we will cut back on unnecessarily wasteful streetlights."  -- March 18, 2009 TulsaNow Forum
TeeDub
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2017, 08:50:03 pm »

May I point out that the entire Christianity movement was based on someone who broke the law?
...and then there were the founders of our country in contempt of their King...


That could explain some of my disdain for those who wrap themselves in religion and try to tell me how much better they are than me.

As for the pilgrims and early settlers, they left rather than break the law.   

Maybe they should run some ICE checks at the protest...   Wouldn't that be funny?

I still don't fault them for coming here rather than living in a hovel with dirt floors...  But there is a process, and skirting it has consequences.
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Townsend
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 11:33:02 am »

That could explain some of my disdain for those who wrap themselves in religion and try to tell me how much better they are than me.

As for the pilgrims and early settlers, they left rather than break the law.   

Maybe they should run some ICE checks at the protest...   Wouldn't that be funny?

I still don't fault them for coming here rather than living in a hovel with dirt floors...  But there is a process, and skirting it has consequences.

The pilgrims are different than the founding fathers.

They still broke the law though...

http://mayflowerhistory.com/crime/

Nasty boys...

Quote
n 1642, a 16-year old boy, Thomas Granger, a servant to Mayflower passenger Love Brewster, was caught (and later admitted to) bestial acts with various of Brewster's livestock, and was executed (along with the animals) per Biblical precedent (Leviticus 20:15).
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 01:29:41 pm »

Nope...Without bond....


That's what I said...release the next day.  Sometimes same day if early enough.

As it should be.
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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 01:38:28 pm »

When protecting the vary existence of a country becomes absurd, I guess I've lost the argument. So you are all right with the police protecting people from messing with other people, but not from foreigners f'ing us all. There is a reason that every country in history has defended it's borders. The notion has not become antiquated as so many here seem to believe.

I know that's being a little mellow dramatic, but seriously people. It's no bait and switch, except in you all's warped sense of state.




I missed this little jewel earlier....


This has nothing to do with protecting people - most especially foreigner's doing anything to us.  This is about a nod and a wink to vast segments of corporate America so they can continue to hire illegals at dramatically lower wages and continue the proceed with the long term "honored tradition" of holding wages down for the rest of us.

Answer just one simple question - if illegals are really a problem - and they are not - why are employers not charged and imprisoned for their criminal acts?  I have never heard of a CEO being held indeterminately while we hold tens of thousands of illegals that way every day.

Again.  It is because we as a society, meaning the RWRE who has held the reins for so long, that lie to you to make you belief some other poor Joe Schmoe is the problem.  Getting real people to fight and argue amongst ourselves while they go about their merry way laying waste to the American Dream for over half the population.  

That is the Kook-Aid you have drunk.   Unless, of course, you are a guido - one of those top 1/2% people who are a big cause and part of the problem.


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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
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