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November 19, 2017, 08:07:22 pm
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Author Topic: SW Corner 71st & Memorial  (Read 1948 times)
Conan71
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« on: January 07, 2017, 11:17:51 am »

The last time I went out to High Gravity to pick up some brewing supplies, I noticed some demolition had been done to the north end of the west strip of this center.  Then I got an email from the folks at High Gravity stating they were being “forced” to move by the new owner of the center and they will be moving to 68th & Memorial to the north of Sun & Ski.

Their email also stated the new owners of the center are razing the center and starting over and the only two remaining tenants will be Ross and Sunshine Furniture.  I have no idea if any of the buildings to the east or the stand-alone to the north were a part of the purchase or not and whether the current structures Ross and Sunshine are in will remain and it will be built up around them.

I would hope there will be better utilization of the overall space as this is a sea of underutilized parking and a perfect example in its current form of what really sucks about suburban development.  IIRC, this center was constructed in the mid-1970’s to compliment Woodland Hills Mall with Target as the anchor.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 11:30:38 am »

Yes, it was built around 1977/1978 and that was the style for building back then, I call it the ball park look. There was a Champlain station on the corner and then the center resembled the outfield wall of a ball park, guess the idea was you could see all the shops from the corner. Little food history, the SE end of that lot at 73rd and Memorial was the location of Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurant that was the place to go at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-Chi's

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Red Arrow
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 11:43:49 am »

IIRC, this center was constructed in the mid-1970’s to compliment Woodland Hills Mall with Target as the anchor.

I never did like that Target.  The inside layout was like a maze and they usually only had a few checkout lines open. 

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 02:14:22 pm »

Yes, it was built around 1977/1978 and that was the style for building back then, I call it the ball park look. There was a Champlain station on the corner and then the center resembled the outfield wall of a ball park, guess the idea was you could see all the shops from the corner. Little food history, the SE end of that lot at 73rd and Memorial was the location of Chi-Chi's Mexican Restaurant that was the place to go at that time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-Chi's



Was that where Inca Hoots used to be?  I was young but remember that being a popular nightspot in the era before the revitalization of the Blue Dome and Brady.
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dbacksfan 2.0
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 02:56:20 pm »

Was that where Inca Hoots used to be?  I was young but remember that being a popular nightspot in the era before the revitalization of the Blue Dome and Brady.

In Cahoots  was at Fontana back in 1984  IIRC. I think Chi-Chi's  became the Ocean Club or some such beach themed club for a while in the early 90's. Across Memorial  was Flakes Jakes/Interurban/Tulsa Brewing Company.
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2017, 02:58:56 pm »

In Cahoots  was at Fontana back in 1984  IIRC. I think Chi-Chi's  became the Ocean Club or some such beach themed club for a while in the early 90's. Across Memorial  was Flakes Jakes/Interurban/Tulsa Brewing Company.

InCahoots, 7188 S. Memorial Drive -- DJ Bobby G, Wednesday through Saturday.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/nightspots/article_92379078-178d-5998-920f-e78e3e1c5a07.html
 
(It's near the bottom of the list, well past alphabetical order.)

It may have been a Chi Chi's too.  I kind of remember a name change.

Looks like it may have had a few name changes.

Quote
PUD 196 -- Detail site Plan -- South of the southwest corner of E. 71st Street and South Memorial Drive
The applicant is proposing to modify the existing Detail Site Plan for Raphael Plaza by enlarging the former Chi Chi's Restaurant site and converting it into a bar called the Yucatan Liquor Stand.
The parking area immediately east of the existing building will be eliminated in order to construct an outdoor bar and volleyball area. The north and south ends of this new bar area will be covered with a canopy. The number of parking spaces in the shopping center will be reduced by 25 to 1309. According to the information supplied by the applicant the number of parking spaces required for all other uses in the shopping center is 1036. The new bar would require 206 parking spaces if the area under the canopies is counted as floor area (15,450 SF @ 75 SF/parking space). The total required parking spaces in the shopping center including the new bar would be 1242f which is less than the 1309 available.

http://www.tmapc.org/Documents/Approved%20Minutes/1991/12-11-91.pdf
(Again, near the bottom of the pages.)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 03:24:06 pm by Red Arrow » Logged

 
shavethewhales
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 09:40:48 pm »

Man, what a prime spot to do something really nice. I'm not going to get my hopes up, but I'd love to see them raise the standard for commercial corners in Tulsa with something sharp like the Classen Curve development in OKC.

If I had to bet though, I'd say they'll rebuild in much the same layout with a few spruce-ups and more "modern" architecture. Gotta preserve those parking spaces.
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 09:48:23 am »

A re-do of Crossing Oaks Shopping Center is certainly needed, and I hope they create something much, much better, but I doubt they'll do anything more than the Mattress Firm/Starbucks/Chipotle/AT&T/GNC garbage we've seen a lot of the last few years. In 2015 and 2016, I did a lot of number counting, and this place stuck out more than most for its obscene amount of parking spaces.

I included this shopping center in my comments regarding the zoning code update, using this as an example of what we've done wrong.

Crossing Oaks was built in 1978 and occupies the southwest corner of one of the busiest intersections in town, 71st & Memorial. It contains 227,391 square feet of retail, restaurant and car service space situated on 24 acres. The parking lot contains 1,108 spaces, and is one of the least utilized in Tulsa. I analyzed a series of aerial images from 2004 to 2015, during which time the parking lot is never more than 19.9% full, and that was back in 2004. Its utilization has fallen since then. The average occupancy for this 12-year span is 15.1%.

Date of Aerial Image      Parking Spaces Occupied
October 6, 2004         19.9% (221)
March 28, 2010         14.1% (156)
June 8, 2011            17.0% (188)
August 9, 2012         16.1% (178)
February 4, 2013         14.9% (166)
March 29, 2015         14.0% (155)
September 10, 2016      7.2% (80)
November 25, 2016*       17.2% (191)
*Black Friday

On Black Friday, a friend of mine took photos of Crossing Oaks (and other shopping centers in South Tulsa). Here's a bleak view of this space:





You may think this kind of thing couldn't happen again--we've got a new zoning code, after all--but it can. If this shopping center were rebuilt with the new minimum number of parking spaces (3.33 spaces per 1,000 sq ft and 8.50 for restaurants), it would still need to provide at least 930 parking spaces, and that's only if it no new restaurants or bars* were included in the new center. Add a new Chipotle (2,530 sq ft), Starbucks (2,000 sq ft), and a bar (2,000 sq ft), and the number of required spaces creeps up to 988. Just as a reminder, this failing shopping center currently has 1,108 parking spaces.

If rebuilt as-is (no changes to use, and no additions), the parking lot would be at least 83.9% the size of the current lot. If re-built with the Starbucks, Chipotle, and bar added, it would be at least 89.2% of its original size. That is not a big difference between the old code and the new code. We are still requiring developers to spend a fortune on wasted land to satisfy outdated minimum parking requirements. The average cost of a surface parking space is around $8,000. The parking lot in this 'new' shopping center would cost around $7.4 million ($7.9 million if we throw in the Starbucks, Chipotle, and bar).

The truth is, we can't hope for something transformative in any part of town until we stop requiring an obscene amount of parking. We need to eliminate parking requirements altogether, like Buffalo recently did. Until that happens, we need to seriously consider cutting current parking requirements in half (or more - there are some ridiculously high minimum parking ratios in our new zoning code).

Here's how this shopping center's parking utilization rate compares to other commercial properties in Tulsa I've analyzed:

Tulsa Parking Utilization by Daniel Jeffries, on Flickr


Fun fact: The size of a 90° nose-in parking space plus half of a 20' wide drive lane is 252 sq ft. When adding entrances, exits and other driveable but non-parkable areas, it's closer to 300 sq ft, which means our zoning code requires 999 sq ft of parking space for every 1,000 sq ft of retail space; 2,550 sq feet of parking space for every 1,000 sq ft of restaurant space; and a whopping 3,375 sq ft of parking for every 1,000 sq ft of a bar. Talk about a waste of space!

*Restaurants are required to provide more than 2.5 times the amount of parking as retailers (8.5 spaces per 1,000 sq ft); and bars are required to build even more (11.25 spaces per 1,000 sq ft).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 10:25:18 am by dsjeffries » Logged

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 10:03:03 am »

Seriously, why does that rule exist?  EVERYONE, and I mean everyone knows that parking lots are almost never close to 50% full.  On the busiest shopping days of the year a select few approach 80% full.  Go troll Google satellite views to see how they look on a random day - I'd guess 25% is a stretch.

My argument is that a giant parking lot is a loss of tax revenue for the City of Tulsa, causes more infrastructure to be wasted (encourages sprawl), and is an assault on my sense of planning.  What is the advantage of mandating more parking that is realistically expected to be needed?

If a private entity outside of urban zoning areas decides to waste millions on unused parking - what the hell.  But the City needs to step up standards in urban areas to LIMIT surface parking, not require it (I'm looking at you Cherry Street, Brookside, Pearl, downtown).  If that means the City carrying a note for a parking garage that the businesses in an area pay an assessment on, I'm fine with that.

But I honestly don't understand the point of mandating bad policy.   
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 10:47:24 am »

In Cahoots  was at Fontana back in 1984  IIRC. I think Chi-Chi's  became the Ocean Club or some such beach themed club for a while in the early 90's. Across Memorial  was Flakes Jakes/Interurban/Tulsa Brewing Company.

Yucatan Liquor Stand
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DowntownDan
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2017, 11:03:51 am »

I never understood that parking lot.  It's a busy intersection that blew up with retail development yet this corner through it all had a few odd shops and an ocean of parking.  And not just an ordinary ocean of parking, one that is noticeably much larger than others, which is saying something in Tulsa.  I just never got the economics. 
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AdamsHall
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2017, 11:46:28 am »

Yucatan Liquor Stand

Correct.  The Ocean Club was located closer to 81st and Memorial.
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Conan71
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2017, 12:38:47 pm »

When Target was in this center, the parking was much better utilized but still nowhere near 50% at any given time other than holiday shopping.

Who better would know how many parking spaces are needed than the developer and their tenant?  Clearly those used for “code” are arbitrary numbers which have no basis in reality.  I agree with CF, it’s not only costly to developers but it is a poor use of taxable space for the city.
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2017, 02:07:27 pm »

Correct.  The Ocean Club was located closer to 81st and Memorial.

Ocean Club was located on the southwest corner of 81st and Memorial next to the Vietnamese restaurant. I went there many a weekend in the 90s for sure.
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 12:56:20 pm »

Ocean Club was located on the southwest corner of 81st and Memorial next to the Vietnamese restaurant. I went there many a weekend in the 90s for sure.

We were probably told to F off by the same chicks back in the day.

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