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November 17, 2017, 05:04:07 pm
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Author Topic: Scott Pruitt to head the EPA  (Read 5220 times)
erfalf
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« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2017, 08:45:22 am »


I keep asking... no one of the RWRE ever answers... What over-regulation??  As in an example beyond the sound-bite Faux Fox News lies, distortions, and fabrications....

Looking for examples...  For years, still haven't heard one single valid objectionable example.


Mandating companies with over 50 employees to provide health insurance is over-regulation. That's an easy one.

The Dodd-Frank regs (voluminous) are putting smaller banks out of business while helping the very thing that we labeled as a risk not that long ago. There has been single digit creation of new banks since, and I doubt that is a coincidence, since as far as I can tell lending/investing money still seems to be a fairly profitable enterprise. At least it looks that way when I walk into virtually any regional or large bank branch.

Google the REINS Act. To address this very thing. But I'm sure it's just made up by some wingnuts that watch too much FOX News. Good for Congress for un-delegating some of it's responsibilities.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 08:49:40 am by erfalf » Logged

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BKDotCom
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« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2017, 08:48:41 am »


What over-regulation??


Prohibiting lead bullets
Prohibiting pesticides that double as chemical weapons
Prohibiting asbestos
Mandating higher gas milage
etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2QXMGYluzo
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2017, 09:00:55 am »

Mandating companies with over 50 employees to provide health insurance is over-regulation. That's an easy one.

The Dodd-Frank regs (voluminous) are putting smaller banks out of business while helping the very thing that we labeled as a risk not that long ago. There has been single digit creation of new banks since, and I doubt that is a coincidence, since as far as I can tell lending/investing money still seems to be a fairly profitable enterprise. At least it looks that way when I walk into virtually any regional or large bank branch.


BS.  There is no absolute requirement that a company over 50 provide insurance.  There IS however a provision that prevents a company from doing that without providing relief to the rest of us who then have to subsidize that cost - the cost of uninsured people riding on the backs of people who do participate and pay for the entire infrastructure - there is a tax for not providing insurance.  Sadly, it is most likely lower than the cost of insurance and would never offset the cost we have to pay to let those freeloaders carry on with business as usual.


As for Dodd-Frank.  Interesting thing - a bill disguised as "regulatory overhaul" that really just lets the biggest banks continue on with business as usual, while as you noted, blocking new banks from starting up.  That is not regulatory - that is monopoly enhancement.  Written BY big banks - FOR big banks.

Next...!?


How about the EPA?  Since that is the nominal topic?  Or OSHA?   FMCA?






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erfalf
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« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2017, 09:28:47 am »


BS.  There is no absolute requirement that a company over 50 provide insurance.  There IS however a provision that prevents a company from doing that without providing relief to the rest of us who then have to subsidize that cost - the cost of uninsured people riding on the backs of people who do participate and pay for the entire infrastructure - there is a tax for not providing insurance.  Sadly, it is most likely lower than the cost of insurance and would never offset the cost we have to pay to let those freeloaders carry on with business as usual.


As for Dodd-Frank.  Interesting thing - a bill disguised as "regulatory overhaul" that really just lets the biggest banks continue on with business as usual, while as you noted, blocking new banks from starting up.  That is not regulatory - that is monopoly enhancement.  Written BY big banks - FOR big banks.

Next...!?


How about the EPA?  Since that is the nominal topic?  Or OSHA?   FMCA?








So your strategy is to not call a reg a reg, and claim there are no regs.

Got it.

And I grew up on a family farm. EPA is a four letter word. Which coincidentally, many EPA regs seem to tilt the scales toward much larger farm producers as well. All though it's not a coincidence at all. But you know that.

See a trend here. Agencies generally are just a blunt object with which competition is beaten down.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 09:32:57 am by erfalf » Logged

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2017, 09:34:55 am »

Prohibiting lead bullets
Prohibiting pesticides that double as chemical weapons
Prohibiting asbestos
Mandating higher gas milage
etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2QXMGYluzo


I love the sarcasm!!   Fits my personality perfectly!!


I do have one comment about higher mileage - and the good things that have happened since that started.  All the associated "added costs" really have not raised the price of a car in real terms at all.  Still looking and will post when I find it - comparison on Honda cost over about 30 years - the price of the car was within a few dollars in real terms (inflation adjusted) to the cost 30 years ago - tens of dollars, not hundreds.  But in that time, in the quest for more power in the same engine volume, vast changes have been made in a wide range of areas to comply with mileage and pollution regulations.  

Starting with the simple little EGR valve - when they were first put into cars, I remember all the people I knew took them out, so they could continue to direct vent the crankcase without a trip through the carb and combustion cycle.  Except that always cut their mileage with no noticeable increase in power/performance - no matter how much they tried to lie about it!  You could always get better performance by adjusting the ignition timing and dwell a little bit.

Then electronic ignitions came along.  Hardened valve seats to allow unleaded gas.  Better spark plugs.  All these things combined to make it so that today, most new car buyers will never own a car long enough for it to need a 'tune-up'.  Every car I had until 1980 - and my 70 Cutlass still - required new plugs, points, distributor cap, rotor EVERY 10,000 miles!!  No matter what!!   They STOP running not long after that without the maintenance....    So imagine how people would react if they had to go spend $400 every 6 to 9 months on a tune-up!  Lol...

Oil changes - were 2,500 miles.  Today what...about 5,000 or more?  Better oil and better filters.  And yeah, there is still the cheap junk filter available - FRAM - but you can get a WIX and have a very good oil filter!   Lately the oil companies have started re-formulating their oils, especially for diesel engines...and it has NOT been a step forward !!

I got as high as 21 mpg on the Cutlass in the past - during the era of 55 mph speed limits, with a tail wind.  14 - 15 was the more normal highway level.  1980 Olds Delta got 17 city, 23 highway.  We have stagnated horribly - 2007 Merc only gets a little better - 21 city, 26 highway.  That is ridiculous that it isn't better.  And a Honda/Toyota/Lexus - exactly the same!    Case of needing more regulation!  Which we had, then got taken away again by Trump.

And a huge step backwards - my 80's cars all had 5 mph bumpers meaning there was NO damage in a collision up to 5 mph.  And it worked!!   But then the anti-regulation clown show took that away...what does a 5 mph collision cost today?   Thousands!!   Who was helped by the elimination of those regulations??   Certainly not real people.

Turns out I had more than one comment...

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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2017, 09:46:55 am »

So your strategy is to not call a reg a reg, and claim there are no regs.

Got it.

And I grew up on a family farm. EPA is a four letter word. Which coincidentally, many EPA regs seem to tilt the scales toward much larger farm producers as well. All though it's not a coincidence at all. But you know that.

See a trend here. Agencies generally are just a blunt object with which competition is beaten down.


No...just when there is no real regulation to be discussed.

EPA - yeah, I can see how not being allowed to continue the practices that ended up with the Cuyahoga river catching on fire might be construed as "restrictive".  Or the dust bowl...  "Gee whiz...I can't keep on indiscriminately trashing the world around me..." and all the long term effects on the rest of the population, would be a culture shock.  EPA regulations have not gone far enough on the herbicide front - RoundUp.  Usage has skyrocketed because it is no longer effective on a quickly broadening range of "pest" plants.  At the same time, Roundup resistance genetics are being put into the seed to allow even higher dosage rates.  Stupid stuff going on in your food !!

Regulations have often been bought and paid for by corporate America - see any activity engaged in by DuPont/Monsanto, etc.  But there have been many that actually helped real people INCLUDING small farmers!!  And if you have not totally walked away from your heritage, you would see the huge resurgence going on in the small farm world for the last couple decades!  I grew up in the 50's/60's family farm environment - I didn't live on one, but ALL my cousins did and we visited a LOT.  Only one (out of maybe 25 - 30) remains on a farm, and he is getting ready to retire.  I am starting up again in that world FOR retirement!

Today's small family farm is not fighting regulations - they are fighting the big corporate farms who have taken over agriculture!   Just try to grow ANY field crop today - the alternative, natural, heritage variety - on a small farm.  If you grow specialty corn you WILL run into problems with Monsanto genetics contaminating your crop!  And then, if you complain, Monsanto will sue you for 'stealing' their IP.   Same with beans.  Wheat hasn't quite got to that point - there are quite a few emmer and spelt growers out there doing very well.

Anything you grow, though, from fruits to nuts will have trouble from time to time.  And if you complain, you will be pushed down.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 09:50:16 am by heironymouspasparagus » Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
erfalf
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« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2017, 10:24:30 am »

So because some regulations are good, all regulations are good.

For some reason the only thing I ever think of when I discuss things with you is this...

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Hoss
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I might be moving to Montana soon...


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« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2017, 10:35:55 am »

So because some regulations are good, all regulations are good.

For some reason the only thing I ever think of when I discuss things with you is this...



With that quote coming from the master of Trickledown...so much irony.
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erfalf
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« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2017, 10:46:56 am »

You also realize corporations as competitors are not hurting the family farm in Oklahoma? They are all but outlawed in this state. Except maybe in livestock production. Now, corporations like Monsanto and such you could maybe make that argument, but it is generally going to just be a pricing issue.

Generally speaking the issues with regulation come at costs. Who is going to bear the costs. Since no one seems to want to pay more for food that is being produced on less and less acres, the farmer is taking the brunt end of it. At some point I believe that we will come to a tipping point.

And you think the farmers now and then wanted the dust bowl to happen. "Modern" farming practices at the time led to the dust bowl (that and virtually no rain for 8 years, which I might add would be bad for just about any region). Modern farming practices that were widely accepted by our government, our regulation creating body. They did what they were supposed to and it didn't work out. Linking that and fiery rivers is beyond ridiculous. Farming practices have changed immensely over the decades thanks in large part to another government body (Oklahoma State University and the like across the country). It the vary same set of weather circumstances arose today however, I doubt the outcome would be dramatically different. That truly was a disaster beyond mankind stopping it.

In many cases though, our fair government, in the name of conservation, does exactly the opposite. Generally speaking, federally regulating something like farming is a fools errand as it "farming" varies so widely from state to state. THAT is the problem.

And do you really think, a farmer, who intends to hand it off at some point, is looking for a quick buck at the expense of his land. The land IS the commodity. The corn/wheat/beans are a byproduct of the land. I wish people would get that. But they know better.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 10:55:05 am by erfalf » Logged

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saintnicster
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« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2017, 10:51:48 am »

So because some regulations are good, all regulations are good.

For some reason the only thing I ever think of when I discuss things with you is this...
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-trouble-with-our-liberal-friends-is-not-that-they-re-ignorant-it-s-just-that-they-ronald-reagan-24-11-94.jpg

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size" Ronald Reagan
I can pull quotes out of context too Cheesy
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erfalf
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« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2017, 10:55:55 am »

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size" Ronald Reagan
I can pull quotes out of context too Cheesy

Mine isn't out of context though.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2017, 03:07:44 pm »

You also realize corporations as competitors are not hurting the family farm in Oklahoma? They are all but outlawed in this state. Except maybe in livestock production. Now, corporations like Monsanto and such you could maybe make that argument, but it is generally going to just be a pricing issue.

Generally speaking the issues with regulation come at costs. Who is going to bear the costs. Since no one seems to want to pay more for food that is being produced on less and less acres, the farmer is taking the brunt end of it. At some point I believe that we will come to a tipping point.

And you think the farmers now and then wanted the dust bowl to happen. "Modern" farming practices at the time led to the dust bowl (that and virtually no rain for 8 years, which I might add would be bad for just about any region). Modern farming practices that were widely accepted by our government, our regulation creating body. They did what they were supposed to and it didn't work out. Linking that and fiery rivers is beyond ridiculous. Farming practices have changed immensely over the decades thanks in large part to another government body (Oklahoma State University and the like across the country). It the vary same set of weather circumstances arose today however, I doubt the outcome would be dramatically different. That truly was a disaster beyond mankind stopping it.

In many cases though, our fair government, in the name of conservation, does exactly the opposite. Generally speaking, federally regulating something like farming is a fools errand as it "farming" varies so widely from state to state. THAT is the problem.

And do you really think, a farmer, who intends to hand it off at some point, is looking for a quick buck at the expense of his land. The land IS the commodity. The corn/wheat/beans are a byproduct of the land. I wish people would get that. But they know better.


You certainly are old enough to understand that you don't have to "own" something - in this case land - to control the use of it.  Think Tyson.  They don't own a sq foot of land in this state, but exert a lot of control.  Just because there is a "law" doesn't keep the thing from happening the law was written for.   And yeah, they do hurt, not just the family farm in Oklahoma, but overlap other areas of activity.  Been to the Illinois River lately??

Monsanto - much more than just price fixing and collusion - I touched on that in the post.  They actively go after people who complain about their crops being contaminated by Monsanto "largesse" in the form of their genetics being spread all around the area.

Dust bowl - you are making my point - there was no regulation.  Just as there was no understanding of the land they were on trying to apply practices from other areas that just didn't apply.  The plains had really just been farmed for a couple decades, with the 20's having a huge expansion.  By the way, we are in drought here, too, right now - some of it extreme.  Our practices are different, so we are not getting the big dust storms seen then...well, except for one we had in 2005 that was pretty good size...  And even after all that, we did the same thing over again in the 40's during WWII.  And the 50's - when the govt paid people to grow pasture instead of wheat.  Dodged a bullet on that one...   And OSU was trying to get farmers to diversify and get away from monoculture as early as 1905 - 1910.  But people would not listen and since there were NO regulations or govt buyback programs to stop the effects, the landslide just gathered steam and headed over the edge.  I have a grandfather and uncle who came to Stillwater area at the first land grab and set up farming.  His ledgers mention how he would talk to OSU people regularly for advise - he was much more progressive than most.  By the late teens they went back to KS due to age.

Kind of like global climate change - since we don't understand, maybe we should be moving cautiously..??   We also see a big experiment like this going on in South America where the rain forest "desert" is being decimated to get 2 or 3 years of crops like wheat, corn, beans, etc.  And then when it is ecologically reduced to rubble, move on to the next freshly cut plot.

Here is a map of precipitation going back to the 1890's.  The 30's really weren't that much worse than other times - like the 50's and 60's.  It's what you do during those times that count's.  And the 40's problems - well there was above average rain, but due to farming practices, big problems.  Mankind brought the problems on and mankind stopped it (see 50's and 60's) by doing what they should instead of all the "rugged individualists" being bad stewards of the land...

http://climate.ok.gov/index.php/climate/climate_trends/precipitation_history_annual_statewide/CD00/prcp/Annual/oklahoma_climate


Getting rid of regulation is what that state question wanted to do last year - make it so large corporate groups could do whatever they wanted with no oversight.  So, yeah, there is definitely a place for regulation.

Finally something we are 100% aligned together one - the land is what is important - if you take care of it, it will take care of you!   Except too many don't actually agree with that.  And it's really much more than a commodity....







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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
guido911
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« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2017, 05:44:19 pm »

No more gym memberships...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pruitt-ends-epa-gym-memberships/article/2620217
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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2017, 11:10:39 am »


Wouldn't want sound bodies/sound minds working for Pruitt.  They'd be too smart for him.

Oklahoma sure can breed them.
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guido911
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« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2017, 11:53:08 am »

Wouldn't want sound bodies/sound minds working for Pruitt.  They'd be too smart for him.

Oklahoma sure can breed them.

Christmas gift idea for you. Buy a gym membership for your favorite EPA worker.
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Someone get Hoss a pacifier.
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