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Author Topic: Terence Crutcher  (Read 28725 times)
Conan71
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« Reply #165 on: October 04, 2016, 07:48:13 pm »

Before Terence Crutcher’s flesh came to live and dwell among us as a hashtag, a police officer in a helicopter said that he looked like a “bad dude” who was probably “on something.” Deeply problematic, likely racist, and perhaps miscalculated, the officer started a familiar narrative that is often used to justify two types of violence. First, it justifies police escalation while the person is still alive. Second, it starts to rationalize police action once the victim is killed.

Police departments, prosecutors, and mainstream media fall deeper into character assassination after the victim’s death, releasing untimely or irrelevant information to further rationalize the killer’s actions. The public quickly learned of Michael Brown’s encounter with a store clerk before his murder, and of the autopsy report revealing marijuana in his system. A prosecutor suggested that Tamir’s family had “economic motives” in the outcome of the grand jury process. News outlets chose to circulate Sam DuBose’s mugshot, the victim, and not Officer Ray Tensing’s mugshot, the one charged with his murder. Now, the nation has learned that officers found PCP in Terence Crutcher’s truck after his death. And? Even if true, his hands were still visible, up, and non-threatening. An officer pulled the trigger anyway.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bad-dudes-have-rights-challenging-problematic-police_us_57e272c5e4b05d3737be519b





Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby killed Terence Crutcher by accident, but the police union is murdering him every day:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/officer-betty-shelby-s-attorneys-are-told-terence-crutcher-was/article_6e1f1a5e-5b64-5f51-9de6-3a443ac5296d.html



Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.  There had been issues between the Crutcher/Johnsons and some neighbors recently based on a PO filed against his wife in which he was named.   It’s becoming obvious Crutcher had issues or a substance abuse problem which led to his odd behavior the night he was killed.  Crutcher and his wife were not model citizens by any stretch of the imagination and I don’t think anyone has tried to make them out as such.  But it does appear there was a recent escalation in his odd behavior.  We will find out soon enough when his tox results are announced.  He definitely did not deserve to die because of those suspected issues...but- Officer Shelby also has a right to establish why she felt threatened enough to have her gun drawn on him.
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davideinstein
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« Reply #166 on: October 04, 2016, 11:02:52 pm »

Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.  There had been issues between the Crutcher/Johnsons and some neighbors recently based on a PO filed against his wife in which he was named.   It’s becoming obvious Crutcher had issues or a substance abuse problem which led to his odd behavior the night he was killed.  Crutcher and his wife were not model citizens by any stretch of the imagination and I don’t think anyone has tried to make them out as such.  But it does appear there was a recent escalation in his odd behavior.  We will find out soon enough when his tox results are announced.  He definitely did not deserve to die because of those suspected issues...but- Officer Shelby also has a right to establish why she felt threatened enough to have her gun drawn on him.

His behavior outside of the incident going to trial has literally nothing to do with her being charged with first degree manslaughter. It's upsetting that it will go that way during the trial it appears.
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patric
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« Reply #167 on: October 04, 2016, 11:15:10 pm »

Clearly Betty Shelby foobared up.  There is no doubt about it.  However, she- just as you, I or Terence Crutcher is still entitled to a defense against her crime.

I too was rather surprised to hear the revelation about Crutcher allegedly shooting a gun down his street.

Interesting how that changed from Crutcher to "a black man."
And then there's this:
The motion claims they found a gun on the ground near an address of 1531 East 52nd Street North. FOX23 investigated the address, and were unable to find it anywhere in the area.
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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2016, 01:49:46 pm »

My problem is that the releases aren't to set up a defense... It is doubtful that the POs, his past, or allegations that he shot a gun in the are would ever come in at a trial of the Officer. They are utterly irrelevant unless she knew of those things at the time and tries to use them to explain why she was more afraid than she ever was in her life.

If she didn't know the allegations, they are utterly irrelevant. Like if a drunk driver veers off the road and I to your house, but happens to crash I to a meth lab. The fact that police later discovered that you had a meth lab doesn't excuse the actions of the drunk driver...who was in no way motivated by that fact or, even if they were, not authorized to act in the manner they did.

Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...
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Conan71
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« Reply #169 on: October 05, 2016, 02:07:47 pm »


Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...

Exactly.  It IS a defense tactic, not unlike Clark Brewster making sure the media was well-aware of Eric Harris’ past well before Bates’ case made it to trial.
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erfalf
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« Reply #170 on: October 05, 2016, 05:28:48 pm »

Would the drunk driver be allowed to excuse his actions because he happened to crash into the home of a bad dude? Of course not. It's irrelevant to his crime. But blabbing about it sure could help taint a jury...

Not applicable to this discussion. In your example there is only one acting party. In Crutcher's case there are two, and the actions of both have a lot to do with the innocence of guilt of the officer in this case.

And that is why, even though Shelby wouldn't have known at the time, previous actions will likely play a part in this as there has yet to be any dash cam footage substantiating Crutcher's actions. Fair or not, Crutcher's actions should not have condemned him to death, but they might have led to it.

I'm not insinuating innocence, just saying the example is a poor one.

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #171 on: October 07, 2016, 07:48:36 am »

Not applicable to this discussion. In your example there is only one acting party. In Crutcher's case there are two, and the actions of both have a lot to do with the innocence of guilt of the officer in this case.

In my scenario the actions of the guy making meth in his house are as much to blame for the drunk crashing into it as Crutches actions before have to do with getting shot that night.

Assuming the Officer knew nothing of the previous actions, firing a gun in the air at some previous time could not have influenced her decision in any way. Assuming the drunk didn't know there was a meth lab in the house, he couldn't have decided to ram it to save the neighborhood. Crutcher firing a gun some previous day without the Officers knowledge did not cause her to be more afraid than she ever had been before.

I don't see any relevance and I guess I  need further explanation of your thought process.
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Conan71
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« Reply #172 on: October 07, 2016, 08:33:55 am »

In my scenario the actions of the guy making meth in his house are as much to blame for the drunk crashing into it as Crutches actions before have to do with getting shot that night.

Assuming the Officer knew nothing of the previous actions, firing a gun in the air at some previous time could not have influenced her decision in any way. Assuming the drunk didn't know there was a meth lab in the house, he couldn't have decided to ram it to save the neighborhood. Crutcher firing a gun some previous day without the Officers knowledge did not cause her to be more afraid than she ever had been before.

I don't see any relevance and I guess I  need further explanation of your thought process.

Unless she had previously arrested him or encountered him on a domestic disturbance call, there’s little chance Officer Shelby had a clue of any of Crutcher’s past transgressions when she encountered him.  His firing a gun the day before, which I’m assuming was unknown to her at the time, would not have weighed on any decision to draw her firearm as no one has said she was called to that situation the day before.  So, no, Crutcher firing a gun the day before would not have made her more afraid than ever, but if he was babbling about guns and reaching in his pockets, she might have been scared shitless.  Only two people appear really know what was said or what his actions were and one of them is dead.  At least according to one of the 911 calls, there is a witness who seems to have seen some bizarre behavior.

In lieu of questions raised by the video such as: "Was he reaching into his left pocket when tazed/shot?"  "Was he capable of the kind of odd behavior which would lead a solo female cop to draw on him?” A jury knowing just the day before he’d been walking down a street randomly firing a gun might indicate he was either mentally ill or had a drug/drinking problem which would lead to the sort of behavior which would cause any prudent cop to pull their weapon while waiting for backup to arrive.  We don’t have audio or video tape of the guesstimated two minutes prior to other units arriving to see if he was talking incoherently, walking with his hands in his pockets, and talking about guns, bombs, etc.

I’m going to guess with all that in mind, the defense will try to establish a pattern of drug use resulting in dangerous behavior which had been escalating just prior to his death.  Whether that is an admissible defense or enough of a mitigating circumstance for a jury to give her 4 years as opposed to a life sentence is beyond me.  I can only assume that is why it’s being floated out there.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 10:15:23 am by Conan71 » Logged

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« Reply #173 on: October 07, 2016, 10:01:14 am »

What about the guy who fired the Taser? She wasn't alone. He didn't pull a gun. He was not scared enough to do so.  Add in the failure to provide the previous two minutes which I feel is actually on her dash cam and will never be presented, a helicopter nearby, and you have to ask just how scared could she be. Here's a thought to defuse such a situation, stand back and wait patiently to see what transpires instead of being the catalyst for violence. If she had simply waited, at a distance, ready for the next phase to unfold, this tragedy ends differently.

I feel for her really, but this effort to paint him as either an escalating drug user or mentally unstable etc. is akin to pulling up a rape victims last date. It is a gambit worth pulling by the defense but is totally useless as a defense.
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Conan71
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« Reply #174 on: October 07, 2016, 10:53:02 am »

What about the guy who fired the Taser? She wasn't alone. He didn't pull a gun. He was not scared enough to do so.  Add in the failure to provide the previous two minutes which I feel is actually on her dash cam and will never be presented, a helicopter nearby, and you have to ask just how scared could she be. Here's a thought to defuse such a situation, stand back and wait patiently to see what transpires instead of being the catalyst for violence. If she had simply waited, at a distance, ready for the next phase to unfold, this tragedy ends differently.

I feel for her really, but this effort to paint him as either an escalating drug user or mentally unstable etc. is akin to pulling up a rape victims last date. It is a gambit worth pulling by the defense but is totally useless as a defense.


Without having been trained on how to respond in such situations, all the rest of us can do is question why she pulled her gun.  It does not appear to make sense to any of us who have commented thus far on this thread.   Supposedly, she was trained in recognizing the behavior of someone on PCP and I can only assume she thought he was high on it and things could get ugly in a hurry.  Listening to other cops talk about it (in particular the detective from Dallas who talked about her own three minute boxing match with a guy on PCP) I could see why one might exercise extreme caution.  Should that form of caution been to retreat behind her vehicle and keep an eye on him or pull a gun and start barking orders?  I honestly do not know.  I can only assume the officer had been trained at some point that if a suspect can pull a gun from his pocket or pants, point, and shoot fast enough she could die as a result.

Perhaps this is a watershed case where law enforcement takes a long look at what sort of response they are training their officers for when things like this go down.  Expensive lawsuits, settlements, and bad PR can have an impact on such things.

I’m honestly surprised we never heard any outrage over the guy who was killed in July for throwing a screwdriver at an officer.  Interestingly enough that officer was hired in Dec. 2011 which I believe that is about the same time as Betty Shelby.  The following day two cops shot a man wielding an axe and a hammer.  One officer had been on the force since 2006 and the other since 2013.  That’s three officers with five or less years on the force involved in three fatality shootings in a two month period. 

That does call in to question if there is something different in the training of younger officers or this is all a coincidence.  I guess one would really need to dig back five years on other officer-involved shootings to see if there is a pattern related to the training of newer officers.

Apparently, the guy who chucked the screwdriver at cops had previously brandished a knife and the guy with the axe charged at officers though that was never confirmed by video so there may have been more room to say there was a real threat.  The widow (who had called the cops as she was the one being threatened) of the guy with the axe put the blame on him for the shooting, not the cops in that incident.

All that said, if all we armed our cops with were tasers and billy clubs to prevent suspect shootings accidental or otherwise, we might have more cops end up dead.
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patric
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« Reply #175 on: October 07, 2016, 07:46:16 pm »


All that said, if all we armed our cops with were tasers and billy clubs to prevent suspect shootings accidental or otherwise, we might have more cops end up dead.

Or not, if a unilateral police demilitarization (with a return to community-based policing) deescalates the tension between cops and community.

But who does that?  Well, the world.



US police kill more in days than other countries do in years
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries


In the first 24 days of 2015, police in the US fatally shot more people than police did in England and Wales, combined, over the past 24 years.

There has been just one fatal shooting by Icelandic police in the country’s 71-year history. The city of Stockton, California – with 25,000 fewer residents than all of Iceland combined – had three fatal encounters in the first five months of 2015.

Police in the US have shot and killed more people – in every week this year – than are reportedly shot and killed by German police in an entire year.

Police in the US fatally shot more people in one month this year than police in Australia officially reported during a span of 19 years.

Police in Canada average 25 fatal shooting a year. In California, a state just 10% more populous than Canada, police in 2015 have fatally shot nearly three times as many people in just five months.


...and on and on.   Something went terribly wrong in the U.S. for us to be in this position.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 07:48:41 pm by patric » Logged

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erfalf
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« Reply #176 on: October 08, 2016, 09:08:14 am »

While those statistics are interesting they rarely tell the whole story. The United States on average is no more a violent civilization than most other "Westernized" parts of the world. Guns ownership has also shown to be relatively statistically insignificant (at least one Harvard study that I am aware of anyway). For whatever reason, the murder rate however tends to be high. This confounds many who truly try to study it.

Most serious studies that I have read (not on The Guardian) can never really pinpoint what the silver bullet is so to speak. But the factors that really seem to be saying something are all things that make people uncomfortable to talk about.
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« Reply #177 on: October 08, 2016, 10:32:53 pm »

Perhaps this is a watershed case where law enforcement takes a long look at what sort of response they are training their officers for when things like this go down.

Their actions so far seem to be the routine tactic of deflecting blame to the victim, so dont hold your breath expecting change.

It should be a felony to tamper with dash cam evidence, with no exemptions for police. 
Same goes for radio logs.  Anyone notice the EMSA radio traffic does not quite line up with the videos?



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« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2016, 09:23:52 pm »


Anyone remember what happened to the cop who shot his daughters boyfriend to death?


Kepler had dumped his daughter at the homeless shelter to teach her a lesson, but she fell in love with someone there. When Kepler found out she was in a relationship with the guy on facebook, he used NCIC, cellphone data and other "secure" police databases to background check and stalk the guy, found his house, got shitfaced, targeted him for execution.  Sat in a car until his daughter came out and shot him point-blank in the face.

After Kepler was arrested, a gun magically appeared in a trash can inside the interview room.
O’Carroll, in his arguments, alleged the gun could have been placed there out of the view of surveillance cameras because of the trash can’s position in the room.

He said his client intends to present a self-defense case that will corroborate why there was a gun in the trash can.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/courts/judge-suppresses-former-tulsa-police-officer-s-statement-about-drinking/article_b73c8ea7-8e27-5d6c-8340-912009137bab.html

But sorry, too much premeditation for a stand-your-ground defense.  The union will arrange for a minimal sentence at an out-of-state country-club prison with an early release based on how much good he did while serving the community.
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« Reply #179 on: October 14, 2016, 09:25:28 pm »

It's a "Yay we found drugs in the victim" rally!

Tulsa Police Officer Betty Shelby has been hastily convicted nationwide by special interest groups and the media. With new facts being released, we want Officer Shelby to know that we stand in support of her.
Law Enforcement and Supporters for Media Accountabilty was formed to defend our Blue Line Heroes from the media fed war being waged against them.

 (posted from Levittown, New York).

https://www.facebook.com/events/389403971448128/?ti=icl&_fb_noscript=1

It changes nothing, because behaving cowardly is not a defense.   The 3 minutes of Shelby's dash cam video TPD lied about -- thats what matters.
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