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Author Topic: Terence Crutcher  (Read 25453 times)
swake
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« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2016, 01:53:45 pm »

I honestly don't know that the dash cam would make all that much difference in the end. Does anyone really think something on their is going to move this up a degree in charges? I know it seems to create a sense that the force is hiding something, but does anyone really think this cop just flipped and went targeting Mr. Crutcher? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Similarly, the fact that Mr. Crutcher has a less than stellar record or may have been high as a kite really has little bearing as to whether Officer Shelby deserves to be convicted of Manslaughter or not.

The only thing I could see is if she somehow destroyed the video she could be charged with obstruction.
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Conan71
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« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2016, 01:59:56 pm »

I honestly don't know that the dash cam would make all that much difference in the end. Does anyone really think something on their is going to move this up a degree in charges? I know it seems to create a sense that the force is hiding something, but does anyone really think this cop just flipped and went targeting Mr. Crutcher? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Similarly, the fact that Mr. Crutcher has a less than stellar record or may have been high as a kite really has little bearing as to whether Officer Shelby deserves to be convicted of Manslaughter or not.

Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.
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erfalf
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« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2016, 02:36:44 pm »

Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.

My thoughts as well. Which makes it all the more perplexing. I find it hard to make the reach that something on that video (if it truly does exist) would be so damning as to demand this sort of deceitfulness. Maybe it truly just didn't work. It really has zero potential to help her case at all.

Anyone ever consider that maybe they are suppressing it for the family. Disparaging the dead potentially? Just seems like the force, while supportive of one of their own, at the same time has done everything else the way they should, and understand that the punishment for one of their sisters is likely to be prison time.
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« Reply #123 on: September 23, 2016, 03:26:04 pm »


From The Frontier:
Quote

Shelby’s dash cam was not functioning during the shooting. Tulsa police vehicles work on a three toggle system — when the switch is flipped to “level one,” as Shelby’s car was that night, only the lights in the rear window are active and the siren and camera remain off.

At level two, the overhead lights and camera activate. At three, all lights are on, as are the camera and the siren.

“She had it on one, because it appeared she just thought she came up on a stalled car,” Public Information Officer Shane Tuell said. “You can hear it in her voice, she says, ‘I just came up on an abandoned car.’ ”


Based on Officer Tuell's description of the toggle system, do any of the police cars in any of the videos appear to be toggled on to level one?  In my opinion, they all appear to be toggled to level two or three, because I see flashing lights and hear sirens.  I don't see lights only in rear windows (level one, as explained by Tuell).

From the Tulsa World:
Quote

Shelby turned on her police car's rear flashing lights only when stopping to approach Crutcher, which meant her dash camera did not turn on, Sgt. Shane Tuell told reporters Monday.


Do only rear flashing lights appear in the videos?  To me, it appears otherwise.

I have no idea if video from Shelby's dash cam would be useful or not.  What I'm questioning is the TPD's official explanation about why her dash cam was not functioning.  It doesn't seem to match the video coverage.
 
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patric
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« Reply #124 on: September 23, 2016, 06:51:07 pm »

I find it hard to make the reach that something on that video (if it truly does exist) would be so damning as to demand this sort of deceitfulness.

Maybe habit.  The videos they released were pretty damning in themselves, but the vantage point of Shelby's video could be pivotal to a "we dont make those kind of mistakes" narrative. 
Could it be as bad as the North Carolina shooting, where CNN just showed photographic evidence of a planted gun?  We should count our blessings.

Maybe its the difference between defending one cop, and defending the integrity of the department.

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AquaMan
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« Reply #125 on: September 24, 2016, 08:03:36 am »

To those who think those moments recorded on Shelby's hard drive are inconsequential since she was correctly charged anyway, I would ask you this, do those 18 minutes missing from Nixon's tapes really mean anything? Was it important that he lied and came up with a contrived description of how his secretary accidentally performed a gymnastic exercise to erase them? There was plenty more evidence available to impeach him. Yet, don't you ever wonder why it was so important to erase that 18 minutes?

It has been explained here how that system works and no one seems to understand or recognize. Maybe I don't. But if it works like I think, this system is basically a 24 hour recording that "flags" time periods as programmed by its purchaser. IOW, the lights on the car mark the recording for easy retrieval, but the recording is still on full time. I doubt the PD wants to protect the family. I think there may be some elucidation as to what may or may not have justified her actions. There may be some embarrassment there that they didn't think was necessary to reveal.
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« Reply #126 on: September 24, 2016, 10:30:47 am »

An interesting excerpt from a law enforcement magazine with a story from a Los Angeles detective.

"There is a gap between the officer’s last radio transmission and when the helicopter arrived on scene that none of us have any concrete evidence as to what happened. I have not seen concrete evidence that she had a body cam and didn’t use it or what the story is about that. She may have done that on purpose or maybe she didn’t (Editor’s Note:  Sources indicate that TPD does not have body cameras). We don’t know and any opinions at this point are simply opinions. It will be interesting to hear what she says happened during this period."

She really gives a good account of what may have happened from a detective's perspective.

Here's the link. http://lawofficer.com/2016/09/detectivetulsa/
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 10:35:48 am by AquaMan » Logged

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cannon_fodder
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« Reply #127 on: September 24, 2016, 11:16:05 am »

I read in the Tulsa World that Terrence Crutches wasnt responding to commands because he had "auditory exclusion." A condition brought on by stress where the body focuses on survival and blocks out sound. He was stressed by a broken car and a gun in his face and physically couldn't hear, so he couldn't comply. He was probably reaching for a notepad to try and communicate when he was shot.

Wait...no.  The article said SHE was so stressed she couldn't hear and was unaware that other officers arrived as backup. She was unaware that someone told her she has a Taser. But she totally could accurately perceive everything else, including the threat Crutches posed.

Junk science and a favorite defense in these cases... Pretending it's real, she was THAT stressed out by a noncompliant nonsuspecr after 10 years in law enforcement
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 12:15:01 pm by cannon_fodder » Logged

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patric
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« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2016, 11:51:16 am »

Anyone ever consider that maybe they are suppressing it for the family. Disparaging the dead potentially? Just seems like the force, while supportive of one of their own, at the same time has done everything else the way they should, and understand that the punishment for one of their sisters is likely to be prison time.

If so, they would be compromising the trust of the entire community in exchange for softening one family's hurt.  Doesnt seem like a logical transaction.

Junk science and a favorite defense in these cases... Pretending it's real, she was THAT stressed out by a noncompliant nonshsoect after 10 years in law enforcement?

Maybe thats the end result of having "We are at war" and "I have a target on my back in this uniform"  drilled into you every day.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 11:56:23 am by patric » Logged

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Conan71
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« Reply #129 on: September 24, 2016, 02:36:01 pm »

An interesting excerpt from a law enforcement magazine with a story from a Los Angeles detective.

"There is a gap between the officer’s last radio transmission and when the helicopter arrived on scene that none of us have any concrete evidence as to what happened. I have not seen concrete evidence that she had a body cam and didn’t use it or what the story is about that. She may have done that on purpose or maybe she didn’t (Editor’s Note:  Sources indicate that TPD does not have body cameras). We don’t know and any opinions at this point are simply opinions. It will be interesting to hear what she says happened during this period."

She really gives a good account of what may have happened from a detective's perspective.

Here's the link. http://lawofficer.com/2016/09/detectivetulsa/

Dallas detective, but who’s counting?  When I saw this, I thought: “Great, more speculation by someone who wasn’t there and would have no idea...” I’m glad you posted it because I thought that was a pretty good explanation of how this could have gone south to the rest of us who haven’t been in a similar situation.  I didn’t take it she was overly defensive for the benefit of the officer, she just laid out the facts from her experience in the field and what protocol typically calls for in similar situations.

Thanks for posting.
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« Reply #130 on: September 24, 2016, 04:16:25 pm »

I don't know where I got L.A. from.

As passionate as I am for the truth about the shooting, I am just as passionate that we're blaming players for what is a systemic problem. Training is key to changing attitudes that have flourished that are non productive within the police ranks. And no doubt there is some racial hate on all sides. There are some conspiracy theories floating around that involve drugs, bad cops and a deal gone bad. I hope there isn't anything to that, sounds like nonsense to me. Only keeping it open and honest from the dept is going to make them go away.
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« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2016, 02:12:13 pm »


Oh, geez....maybe he stopped because the car was having trouble...??   If you had ever driven a car, you might understand that the engine can actually run, while the car is inoperable or at least dangerous to drive. 

Yeah....likely that he just attended class and got high right then.... could be. 



Or he could of been high, otherwise, he could of pulled to the side of the road shut the engine off and turned the flashers on- but he didn't- he left the car  running straddling  the roadway and walked away very strange and a safety issue to. It's a grim situation indeed.
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« Reply #132 on: September 25, 2016, 02:22:24 pm »

Its only use at this point would be for the PR benefit to the TPD which would come along with illustrating there was a reason for Officer Shelby to have her weapon drawn in the first place.  It might show that Terence Crutcher was out of his mind at the time of the encounter.  It doesn’t mitigate the fact that she was negligent when she fired her weapon but it might help defuse the notion that Crutcher’s race was the only reason she’d pulled a gun on him.
People high on PCP don't follow directions well, Terence  kept putting his hands in his pockets, he didn't respond to questions she asked him- a gun hidden in the pockets could still be fired right thru the pocket in a nano second, and lets be fair the Crutcher family suffered a severe loss but it flips both ways- they need to be truthful too Terence was not the good guy they made him out to be he had a long criminal record & rap sheet, that does not mean he should of been shot- however put your self in the cops position with someone un-responsive who has their hands in their pockets what would you do? IMO I think the only reason they charged the cop so fast was to avoid civil un-rest, "mob rule".
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« Reply #133 on: September 25, 2016, 04:07:53 pm »

People high on PCP don't follow directions well, Terence  kept putting his hands in his pockets, he didn't respond to questions she asked him- a gun hidden in the pockets could still be fired right thru the pocket in a nano second, and lets be fair the Crutcher family suffered a severe loss but it flips both ways- they need to be truthful too Terence was not the good guy they made him out to be he had a long criminal record & rap sheet, that does not mean he should of been shot- however put your self in the cops position with someone un-responsive who has their hands in their pockets what would you do? IMO I think the only reason they charged the cop so fast was to avoid civil un-rest, "mob rule".

Do you have proof he was on PCP?  His 'lengthy rap sheet'?  Check OSCN.  He was charged in 1996 for a concealed weapon, which was ultimately dismissed.  Some traffic violations as well.  Stop listening to idiots like Sean Hannity.  Even the KRMG reporter he was interviewing said his criminal history wasn't very long.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sean-hannity-rebuffed-smear-terence-crutcher-article-1.2802715
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« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2016, 05:46:16 pm »

Do you have proof he was on PCP?  His 'lengthy rap sheet'?  Check OSCN.  He was charged in 1996 for a concealed weapon, which was ultimately dismissed.  Some traffic violations as well.  Stop listening to idiots like Sean Hannity.  Even the KRMG reporter he was interviewing said his criminal history wasn't very long.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sean-hannity-rebuffed-smear-terence-crutcher-article-1.2802715


According to Chicago Tribune (take it for what it's worth), they confirm that "Oklahoma prison officials" confirmed he was in prison from 2007 to 2011 for drug trafficking. They also mention an incident where a claim was made of him firing a gun out a car window in 2005 for which he was stopped and the weapon was found on his body. And that police had used force on Crutcher on four different occasions prior to this as recently as 2012 for a public intoxication and obstruction complaint. In this instance Crutcher's father showed up and insisted his son had an ongoing problem with PCP (ironic). He hasn't exactly been a saint over the last decade. And in particular has shown a propensity to ignore commands from police officers.


That all being said, none of that condemn's him to death. If there was no video evidence at all, I would imagine that all of this in total would lead most to believe the shooting WAS justified. But that's not the case obviously. Which is why we have camera's and such. I'm not saying it would change the ultimate outcome, just the perception by people like all of us on this forum.

I'm not sure what OSCN is supposed to have in it's database, but it's either not showing cases that resulted in prison, or other people are lying about him. Not sure which it is.

Has anyone said that the car was working or not? That would say a lot about a lot as to whether of not he was incapacitated.

All this being said, I still find it hard to say the shooting was justified. She certainly seemed to have made a huge mistake.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 05:50:52 pm by erfalf » Logged

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