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Author Topic: Terence Crutcher  (Read 15895 times)
Conan71
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2016, 12:36:53 pm »

I don't think anything on that video would in some way help Shelby.  I think it would show what lead to the escalation that lead to pulling the gun out.  Also, an idea of the body language of the victim.

How would showing what led to the escalation not in some way help the officer?

As it is, most people reading the headlines are thinking she cowboyed it and shot him because he’s black and she’s racist.  At least seeing his actions which led to her unholstering her weapon might be of help at least in terms of public opinion and helping to ease racial tension in the community.  Diffusing that tension as well as tension with the TPD would be good things.

As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2016, 01:09:38 pm »

As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.

It looks like TPD will defend the shooting.  One tactic that seems to be emerging is the emphasis on Shelby, who was apparently not only a medical first responder but a "Drug Recognition Expert" now claiming the victim was on PCP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tulsa-fatally-shot-terence-crutcher-pcp-article-1.2799465

There's too many cops involved for TPD to just throw her under the bus.   Even the JAFO was a drug recognition expert:  "Looks like a bad dude, too. Could be on something."
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Conan71
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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2016, 01:14:12 pm »

It looks like TPD will defend the shooting.  One tactic that seems to be emerging is the emphasis on Shelby, who was apparently not only a medical first responder but a "Drug Recognition Expert" now claiming the victim was on PCP.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/tulsa-fatally-shot-terence-crutcher-pcp-article-1.2799465

There's too many cops involved for TPD to just throw her under the bus.   Even the JAFO was a drug recognition expert:  "Looks like a bad dude, too. Could be on something."

Tulsa World is now reporting PCP was found in Crutcher’s car.  I would assume the autopsy and toxicology would be very closely monitored.  I’d expect the family will want their own autopsy done.
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CharlieSheen
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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2016, 01:24:16 pm »

How would showing what led to the escalation not in some way help the officer?

As it is, most people reading the headlines are thinking she cowboyed it and shot him because he’s black and she’s racist.  At least seeing his actions which led to her unholstering her weapon might be of help at least in terms of public opinion and helping to ease racial tension in the community.  Diffusing that tension as well as tension with the TPD would be good things.

As far as helping her avoid criminal charges it won’t help.  But as CF points out, the elements of 2nd degree manslaughter are very apparent here.  Regardless of how the officer was provoked, it would appear she was negligent when she shot Crutcher.

Because a person having their hands in their pockets doesn't justify shooting them when they don't pose a threat. If he posed a big enough threat earlier he would have already been shot.
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swake
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« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2016, 01:31:18 pm »

Being on PCP doesn't equate to the death sentence on the spot. Even if he wasn't following orders that doesn't give the police a right to shoot the man if he isn't acting in a threatening manner, which he plainly was not.

What if he was deaf or autistic and unable to follow orders?

And there's PCP on the streets in Tulsa? Seriously?
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« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2016, 01:32:16 pm »

Tulsa World is now reporting PCP was found in Crutcher’s car.  I would assume the autopsy and toxicology would be very closely monitored.  I’d expect the family will want their own autopsy done.

This would make parking/breaking down in the middle of the road make a lot more sense. You still can't shoot people just because they might be on drugs or have a mental illness either.
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Conan71
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« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2016, 02:42:54 pm »

This would make parking/breaking down in the middle of the road make a lot more sense. You still can't shoot people just because they might be on drugs or have a mental illness either.

Quote
Because a person having their hands in their pockets doesn't justify shooting them when they don't pose a threat. If he posed a big enough threat earlier he would have already been shot.

Correct, having your hands in your pockets doesn’t justify being shot.  However, if you refuse to show your hands when asked (CF can comment as to probable cause to make you show your hands) an officer can make an assumption you may be trying to conceal drugs or you might have a small weapon in your pocket.  There are quite a few handguns which will fit in a front pocket and conceal nicely.  If he was messed up on angel dust, I can start to see why her hackles went up.

This goes to a training issue: How to react when you are put into a high stress, potentially dangerous situation and her training to recognize certain behavior.  It’s been reported that she’s been trained (and I believe “certified”) to recognize people on drugs and she reported to dispatch he was exhibiting the type of behavior someone on PCP would exhibit.

This does give me some pause:  She was identified in a KOTV story as being a field training officer, meaning she trains rookies in the field.  This particular case worries me about how cops are being trained, as there’s a pattern happening in these cases with unarmed subjects.

I’m going to admit, she has better training than I do to recognize the symptoms of someone on PCP but did that training make her over-react in how the situation might play out if he was, in fact, reaching back into his car when shot?  If you’d had every single worst outcome with someone on PCP pounded into your head in training scenarios you might over-react assuming the worst.  We can talk about what started the confrontation to death.  

Other than a couple of complaints for excessive force which were “were determined to be unfounded", it appears she’s had an exemplary five year career with the PD.

The end result for her is likely one of either excessive force which she can’t walk away from this time or a negligent accidental shooting.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 02:45:48 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2016, 03:03:14 pm »

His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.

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« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2016, 03:04:59 pm »

His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.



This is why it's called the Thin Blue Line.
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Conan71
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« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2016, 03:24:14 pm »

His hands were not in his pocket for at least the minute + before she shot him.  They were in the air.

No matter what her lawyer says...the video is clear.



Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 03:29:47 pm by Conan71 » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2016, 03:30:18 pm »

To be accurate, his hands were in the air shortly before he was shot, but he had continued to walk back to the car (the one he thought was going to explode?) and he was by the drivers’ side door turning towards the car.  That alone does not justify shooting, but it puts it in perspective that he was not following the officers’ directives.  The PCP thing would put a new spin on it if it is indeed found in his system.  Alone that would not justify the shooting, but it might explain heightened tensions and if Crutcher made a sudden movement to reach in the car.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2016, 03:58:40 pm »

Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.


I look at that and wonder - exactly how would I react to 20,000 volts hitting me in the right side - where the taser appeared to hit.  I'm betting I would kinda cringe and curl to the right and downward - pretty much exactly the motion seen in the heli video and what little can be seen of car video.  Then very soon - a very few seconds, if that much - drops like a rock when he is shot.

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« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2016, 04:13:14 pm »

Actually, it’s not that clear.  Shelby and Turnbough block the camera’s view of Crutcher in the final seconds before he’s shot and tazed.  The helicopter was on the RH side of his vehicle when he went down.  It’s hard to tell where his hands were even when the helicopter was hovering on the driver’s side when crutcher was at the door of his vehicle.  In one screen grab the TW is using from that angle it does not appear to me his hands are still up.

/Edit: From the screen grab, the angle of his shoulders could indicate he is reaching forward into the vehicle or still had hands up.  It’s too grainy to see hands.

But let's be clear, reaching into a car alone is not enough to justify shooting someone.
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« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2016, 04:28:28 pm »

I could be wrong, but to me it doesn't look like the window of the SUV is down. Could be a trick of the lighting, but there appears to be a reflection/glare from the glass in the driver's side window. I mentioned that to my wife last night and just watched both videos again. Just so difficult to tell.
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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2016, 04:38:56 pm »

His lawyer showed a blow up pic of the drivers side window. It is up and blood was found on the outside of the window. Tests for PCP have not been concluded. It may be something else. I sure didn't see any action that would have created fear for her life. Unless he was going to break the window, reach in after being tasered, grab a weapon and face off with the officers. I don't see it.

Edit: interesting that Channel 6 continues to report that a vial of PCP was found in the car, even though it is a vial of clear liquid until tests prove otherwise. Then of course there is the chain of possession issue. Where was it found, or was it placed, tox reports on the victim. Minor stuff to Channel 6 I guess.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 06:23:08 pm by AquaMan » Logged

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