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November 19, 2017, 06:26:05 pm
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Author Topic: Five ways to make Tulsa special.  (Read 3537 times)
cannon_fodder
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2016, 12:57:32 pm »

This goes back to the establishment of UCAT, now OSU Tulsa.  UCAT offered year 3 and up courses, TCC offered 1000 and 2000 level.  The original idea was to help protect OU and OSU which I always thought was ridiculous.  At least when this was applicable to me in the mid 1980’s, kids who were bent on the idea of going away to Stillwater or Norman would not have been dissuaded by an upstart four year public university in Tulsa.

I don't think the laws bear that out. They are meant as a protection for TCC when OSU Tulsa (University Center Tulsa) was created:

Quote
Courses offered at the undergraduate level through Oklahoma State University shall not duplicate those offered by Tulsa Community College.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?id=104059&hits=249+248+247+160+159+158+73+72+71+47+19+18+17+

Quote
It is the intent of the Legislature that the functions and programs of Oklahoma State University/Tulsa shall be conducted in such manner as to cooperate with the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education in fulfilling the statewide mission for Langston University
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104060

Quote
Undergraduate degree programs offered through Oklahoma State University/Tulsa shall not duplicate those undergraduate degree programs offered by Northeastern State University in Tulsa, as determined by the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104062

Quote
E. Any curricula offered by the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State University at the graduate or professional level may be offered by the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State University.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104067


The language limits what OSU and OU Tulsa can do. No indication that this is to protect Stillwater or Norman, rather it was to protect TCC, Langston, and NSU undergraduate programs. The effect is that Tulsa will never have a full four year college and will maintain a patchwork, unless the laws are changed. But I think that's our doing (TCC, Langston, NSU), and not OKC.

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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2016, 01:41:53 pm »

OSU Tulsa needs a gathering place sized funding campaign for buildings and endowments and needs those laws changed.

OSU Tulsa being freed of those stupid laws and allowed to become a full four year PHD granting research university is the single biggest boost this city needs. TU is going for quality over size and that's fine, but Tulsa really needs a real public university. It's stupid that a metro area this size doesn't have one. The Oklahoma City metro has two.


Coulda just been two states....Oklahoma and Sequoyah.  Whole other set of problems then....

Yeah, it's stupid we don't have the full research university. 

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Conan71
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2016, 02:07:08 pm »

I don't think the laws bear that out. They are meant as a protection for TCC when OSU Tulsa (University Center Tulsa) was created:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?id=104059&hits=249+248+247+160+159+158+73+72+71+47+19+18+17+
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104060
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104062
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=104067


The language limits what OSU and OU Tulsa can do. No indication that this is to protect Stillwater or Norman, rather it was to protect TCC, Langston, and NSU undergraduate programs. The effect is that Tulsa will never have a full four year college and will maintain a patchwork, unless the laws are changed. But I think that's our doing (TCC, Langston, NSU), and not OKC.



I note that your citations were mostly added in 1998 through 2001 and appear to address the transition from UCAT to OSU Tulsa.  They don’t address the formation of UCAT.  UCAT was established in 1982, the actual land and buildings started going up around 1985, and courses were offered through OSU, OU, Langston, and NSU IIRC. 

I’m simply stating what the buzz was at that time:  There was plenty of concern about it taking students away from other institutions.  I don’t recall all the machinations of it, but the State Board of Regents had a stated opposition to competing with the big campuses over in Stilly and down in Norman. Perhaps one of the other elder members like Aqua will remember.  The article below will put some context to how it was feared that the programs offered in Tulsa might be a drain on the other schools even including our local private universities.

http://newsok.com/article/1997100
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2016, 05:32:24 pm »

I note that your citations were mostly added in 1998 through 2001 and appear to address the transition from UCAT to OSU Tulsa.  They don’t address the formation of UCAT.  UCAT was established in 1982, the actual land and buildings started going up around 1985, and courses were offered through OSU, OU, Langston, and NSU IIRC.  

I’m simply stating what the buzz was at that time:  There was plenty of concern about it taking students away from other institutions.  I don’t recall all the machinations of it, but the State Board of Regents had a stated opposition to competing with the big campuses over in Stilly and down in Norman. Perhaps one of the other elder members like Aqua will remember.  The article below will put some context to how it was feared that the programs offered in Tulsa might be a drain on the other schools even including our local private universities.

http://newsok.com/article/1997100

So rather than "drain students" from those universities, they would rather hamper/drain the whole state by making our cities less vital and competitive.
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2016, 05:44:02 pm »

So rather than "drain students" from those universities, they would rather hamper/drain the whole state by making our cities less vital and competitive.

Sounds like a plan.  Not a very good one though.

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AquaMan
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2016, 07:20:57 pm »

I remember the "buzz" about UCAT and the alleged fear that OU and OSU would lose students if they didn't restrict them. Mostly I remember everyone being confused as to what it was all about. Laws can be changed if the legislature found those fears to be baseless.
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onward...through the fog
Conan71
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2016, 08:36:37 pm »

Laws can be changed if the legislature found those fears to be baseless.

Quite true.  Much like our beleaguered sales tax financing for our city which is consistently insufficient.  That could be changed as well, but it isn't.  Tulsa always seems to draw short straw when it comes to the Oklahoma State Legislature.

Ironically, a very strong four year public university might actually create enough population growth in Tulsa that our system of city funding might make sense.
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swake
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2016, 10:37:35 pm »

Quite true.  Much like our beleaguered sales tax financing for our city which is consistently insufficient.  That could be changed as well, but it isn't.  Tulsa always seems to draw short straw when it comes to the Oklahoma State Legislature.

Ironically, a very strong four year public university might actually create enough population growth in Tulsa that our system of city funding might make sense.

The panhandle, which has roughly the population of Bixby has a university. Tulsa does not. Think on that.
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2016, 07:46:26 am »

The panhandle, which has roughly the population of Bixby has a university. Tulsa does not. Think on that.

Thread drift, sort of.   But yeah, I don't understand Panhandle State, or several of the other small colleges in OK.   Northwestern in Woodward is only two hours East, and West Texas A&M and Wayland Baptist are in Amarillo.   Those three can serve the Panhandle.

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Conan71
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2016, 08:56:33 am »

The panhandle, which has roughly the population of Bixby has a university. Tulsa does not. Think on that.

We’ve driven past the turn-off for the school several times this summer going back and forth to New Mexico.  Other than the sign for the intersection, there is no indication there is a four year university anywhere in the vicinity.

I was previously unaware that the school was established in 1909 until just now.  I can see why there might have been a far flung university system closer to statehood, as travel was far more difficult as well as communication.  That’s still no excuse as to why Tulsa still does not have a full four year U.

The schools in rural areas still exist mainly as they are one of the few sources of jobs in those areas, and there’s a good sized cost to running all these institutions, but that is another discussion for another thread.
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2016, 09:24:20 am »

There are 15 public universities in Oklahoma offering 4 year degrees.  That is insane for a state our population size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_universities_in_Oklahoma

I get that politics and political deals likely played a part in many cases (as I recall, Rogers State become a four year college as part of the OSU Tulsa deal), but this is a real drain on the higher ed budget.
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erfalf
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2016, 09:28:40 am »

Thread drift, sort of.   But yeah, I don't understand Panhandle State, or several of the other small colleges in OK.   Northwestern in Woodward is only two hours East, and West Texas A&M and Wayland Baptist are in Amarillo.   Those three can serve the Panhandle.



While Tulsa may not have the main campus for any public university, what they do have is still eons better than Panhandle State. Tulsa has OSU, OU, and Northeastern State within the metro. All vastly superior campuses compared to Panhandle.
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heironymouspasparagus
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2016, 10:47:13 am »

So rather than "drain students" from those universities, they would rather hamper/drain the whole state by making our cities less vital and competitive.


The Oklahoma Plan.
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“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
davideinstein
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2016, 01:25:03 pm »

Quote from: swake link= topic=21385.msg310930#msg310930 date=1472618255
The panhandle, which has roughly the population of Bixby has a university. Tulsa does not. Think on that.

Brilliant! Roll Eyes
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erfalf
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2016, 03:17:26 pm »

A major college campus doesn't necessarily equate to thriving city.

For example, the list below is the largest cities without a single major university campus (in this case not larger than 15,000):

Phoenix - ASU-Downtown (6,595)
Dallas - SMU (10,938)
Fort Worth - TCU (9,142)
Nashville - Vanderbilt (12,714)
Oklahoma City - OSU-OKC (5,824)
Colorado Springs - UCCS (9,745)
Omaha - Nebraska-Omaha (14,665)
Tulsa - Tulsa (4,185)
Oakland - Holy Names (1,164)
Wichita - Wichita State (14,577)
New Orleans - New Orleans (11,276)

Look at OKC even. I would say by any measure they are doing pretty well as a city and the biggest they have is OSU-OKC. Tulsa by far has the most prestigious school of the two major cities. Dallas, Fort Worth, Nashville. It just seems that we are making the mistake of thinking a major university will bring all this goodness. I just don't think that it will. Unless of course you are considering putting a Cal-Berkely caliber school here, which obviously is not what we are talking about.
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