A grassroots organization focused on the intelligent and sustainable development, preservation and revitalization of Tulsa.
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2017, 09:56:22 pm
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Moratorium: No more sidewalk cafes  (Read 6408 times)
heironymouspasparagus
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 11117



« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2016, 09:55:22 am »

You passed up a perfectly good opportunity to actually contribute.


First he would have to actually understand the concept....

Logged

“When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a conservative, you're a vandal.”    - Garrison Keillor

Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say.
Townsend
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 12011



« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2016, 12:11:45 pm »

You passed up a perfectly good opportunity to actually contribute.

He took the opportunity to sound like an A-hole though.
Logged
saintnicster
Civic Leader
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 338


« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2016, 12:58:58 pm »

Ya missed one that did it right....You figure it out....

No.  Stop being dumb and tell us.  If something is doing something 'right', then why be so secretive about it? This isn't like you've got some bs 'confidential source' to protect in the Miss Jackson's/Petty's thread.
Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2016, 02:50:01 pm »



I'm trying to figure out why Karen Gilbert would have been getting calls.  D-5 is largely east Tulsa suburbia style development.


I went back to listen to what Karen Gilbert said.  The audio quality isn't the best, and I'm not a transcription expert, self-appointed or otherwise, but here's my best effort:

Karen Gilbert beginning at time mark 01:39:28:

"Yeah, so, I wanted to put this on because I had a few phone calls from a couple of developers that they were given the-- the thumbs down on moving forward on their projects downtown and was told that there's a moratorium on [It sounds as though a male voice interrupted Councilor Gilbert at this point (time mark 01:39:51), although David Patrick, who was chairing the committee meeting, had clearly given Councilor Gilbert the floor just 23 seconds earlier, and she had not yielded to any other person, male or female, as far as I could tell from watching the video.  No one else requested the floor, but someone decided to start talking over Councilor Gilbert at this point anyway, less than 30 seconds after the chair had acknowledged her and had given her the floor.  Although it's difficult for me, not being an expert at transcribing audio recordings, to hear exactly what's being said when more than one person is talking at the same time, the following is my best interpretation of what Gilbert said as she tried to maintain/re-gain the floor...] projects like this, and we haven't had that discussion.  So, just wondering what was going on and you guys could update us, and just wondering how the moratorium was put into place without coming to the Council with that."

Then around time mark 01:40:11, it sounds as though Dawn Warrick tries to start her reply to Councilor Gilbert, but that Paul Zachary (or another male) almost immediately starts talking over Warrick.  When Warrick tries to begin her reply to Gilbert, the camera is still on Gilbert, so I can not see who is talking, but I can hear more than one voice at the same time on the audio track, which is not customary during orderly public meetings (or it shouldn't be, at least).

At time mark 02:10:46, Gilbert had one more comment [to Warrick and/or Zachary, I think -- it's difficult to tell because the camera is on Blake Ewing at that point]:

Karen Gilbert:

"I didn't mean to hit a nerve with you, but it was said in the paper that the Mayor's Office has set a moratorium on downtown development on sidewalks until that walkability study is done.  So I know that there is so much development going on downtown right now that developers are depending on getting their projects completed, and then hearing a moratorium being put in place by the administration without consulting us was concerning to me--" [At this point in the meeting (time mark 02:11:20), Warrick interrupts Gilbert, and then Zachary interrupts Warrick a few seconds later.]

That's what Bamboo World heard.  Bamboo World wasn't at the meeting.  Bamboo World listened to the TGOV recording instead.
   
Logged
davideinstein
Guest
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2016, 04:48:41 pm »

He took the opportunity to sound like an A-hole though.

About time this is being addressed.
Logged
davideinstein
Guest
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2016, 04:49:53 pm »

Ya missed one that did it right....You figure it out....

Hey Mambo and the cigar place. See how hard that was?
Logged
davideinstein
Guest
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2016, 04:50:38 pm »

Leftys is another.
Logged
Conan71
Recovering Republican
T-Town Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 28718



« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2016, 05:16:48 pm »

I went back to listen to what Karen Gilbert said.  The audio quality isn't the best, and I'm not a transcription expert, self-appointed or otherwise, but here's my best effort:

Karen Gilbert beginning at time mark 01:39:28:

"Yeah, so, I wanted to put this on because I had a few phone calls from a couple of developers that they were given the-- the thumbs down on moving forward on their projects downtown and was told that there's a moratorium on [It sounds as though a male voice interrupted Councilor Gilbert at this point (time mark 01:39:51), although David Patrick, who was chairing the committee meeting, had clearly given Councilor Gilbert the floor just 23 seconds earlier, and she had not yielded to any other person, male or female, as far as I could tell from watching the video.  No one else requested the floor, but someone decided to start talking over Councilor Gilbert at this point anyway, less than 30 seconds after the chair had acknowledged her and had given her the floor.  Although it's difficult for me, not being an expert at transcribing audio recordings, to hear exactly what's being said when more than one person is talking at the same time, the following is my best interpretation of what Gilbert said as she tried to maintain/re-gain the floor...] projects like this, and we haven't had that discussion.  So, just wondering what was going on and you guys could update us, and just wondering how the moratorium was put into place without coming to the Council with that."

Then around time mark 01:40:11, it sounds as though Dawn Warrick tries to start her reply to Councilor Gilbert, but that Paul Zachary (or another male) almost immediately starts talking over Warrick.  When Warrick tries to begin her reply to Gilbert, the camera is still on Gilbert, so I can not see who is talking, but I can hear more than one voice at the same time on the audio track, which is not customary during orderly public meetings (or it shouldn't be, at least).

At time mark 02:10:46, Gilbert had one more comment [to Warrick and/or Zachary, I think -- it's difficult to tell because the camera is on Blake Ewing at that point]:

Karen Gilbert:

"I didn't mean to hit a nerve with you, but it was said in the paper that the Mayor's Office has set a moratorium on downtown development on sidewalks until that walkability study is done.  So I know that there is so much development going on downtown right now that developers are depending on getting their projects completed, and then hearing a moratorium being put in place by the administration without consulting us was concerning to me--" [At this point in the meeting (time mark 02:11:20), Warrick interrupts Gilbert, and then Zachary interrupts Warrick a few seconds later.]

That's what Bamboo World heard.  Bamboo World wasn't at the meeting.  Bamboo World listened to the TGOV recording instead.
   

Okay, I get it, not like constituent calls, just friendly lobbying calls from interested parties.  Been there.
Logged

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first” -Ronald Reagan
Breadburner
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4320


WWW
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2016, 08:14:23 am »

Good job on doing your homework guys.....!!!
Logged

 
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #114 on: August 20, 2016, 01:27:37 pm »


Hey Mambo and the cigar place. See how hard that was?



Leftys is another.


All three of which I included on my list, in a reply to cannon_fodder on August 17th:


15. Hey Mambo
16. the cigar place north of Hey Mambo
...
19. Lefty's


But instead of reading and learning, he chooses to remain ignorant and to take swipes at you, patric, and others.  If he had spent a few moments reading the Tulsa World article you linked in your initial post, he would have known the name of the author and purported metrosexual who has been commissioned by the Downtown Coordinating Council to conduct a downtown walkability study.

This is an excellent topic, davideinstein.  I'm so glad you started it.

My August 17th list was an attempt to identify the locations downtown which have private furnishings such as seating and tables on public rights of way.  Then, to further identify the locations that have furnishings which impede or obstruct the free flow of pedestrians or wheelchairs.  I can't think of any, except perhaps for Ti Amo and whatever is being built on the sidewalk near Mathew B. Reconciliation Way and Elgin.  This week, metal barriers were bolted down to the sidewalks there.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 02:46:42 pm by Bamboo World » Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #115 on: August 20, 2016, 01:42:16 pm »



Okay, I get it, not like constituent calls, just friendly lobbying calls from interested parties.  Been there.


Did you listen to the recording, or just read my best attempt at transcribing a bit of it?

I don't know if the developers who called Karen Gilbert are her constituents or not, and it doesn't matter.  But to me, it did not sound as though they were just friendly lobbying calls.  What makes you think that?

Karen Gilbert and Blake Ewing were both at the August 11th City Council Urban & Economic Development Committee meeting.  Other than David Patrick chairing the meeting, the only Councilors I heard speaking about the moratorium were Gilbert, Ewing, and Phil Lakin.

Gilbert remained much calmer than I would have been.  The Council is Tulsa's legislature.  If an ordinance or city policy isn't working, that's okay, but the Council needs to know about it.  Gilbert had seen a Tulsa World article that stated the Mayor's Office had issued a moratorium on an existing policy, and the administration had not consulted/informed the Council beforehand.  That's a problem.
 
Logged
PonderInc
City Dweller
City Father
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2459


« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2016, 01:08:37 pm »

So glad that sidewalk cafes are inducing so much passion on this forum.  Hurray!

My understanding is that the city isn't worried about sidewalk cafes where folks put a few chairs and tales out.  As long as they leave clearance for wheelchairs and pedestrians, nobody cares, since these are not permanent structures.  And if it's like most other code violations, the city wouldn't even enforce it unless there are complaints.

The real issue is that there are developers that have built new buildings downtown that didn't allow for wheelchair ramps.  Then, after the building is complete, they can't lease spaces / get a certificate of occupancy without the ramps. So they attempt to just build the (permanent) ramps on public land, aka the sidewalk.  The example I've heard about for a long time is the Green Arch building, but there are probably others.
Logged
Bamboo World
Philanthropist
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 568


« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2016, 06:15:11 pm »



So glad that sidewalk cafes are inducing so much passion on this forum.  Hurray!

My understanding is that the city isn't worried about sidewalk cafes where folks put a few chairs and tales out.  As long as they leave clearance for wheelchairs and pedestrians, nobody cares, since these are not permanent structures.  And if it's like most other code violations, the city wouldn't even enforce it unless there are complaints.

The real issue is that there are developers that have built new buildings downtown that didn't allow for wheelchair ramps.  Then, after the building is complete, they can't lease spaces / get a certificate of occupancy without the ramps. So they attempt to just build the (permanent) ramps on public land, aka the sidewalk.  The example I've heard about for a long time is the Green Arch building, but there are probably others.


What caught my attention (thanks to this thread) was a Tulsa World article and some local TV reports about a sidewalk café moratorium that wouldn't be lifted until the downtown walkability study is completed (sometime in 2017, according to the Downtown Coordinating Council).

The ADA ramps and stairs ought to be handled during the design phase, not after they're already built on public sidewalks.  I've noticed several in recent years:

CSL Plasma (but the ramp is mostly on private property, I think)

Bernsen Center

Rib Crib

Naples Flatbread

Pinkitzel

Prhyme

Harrington Lofts

And in recent months:

As you mentioned, GreenArch

Prairie Artisan Ales

Gates Hardware (a metal barrier was bolted down to the sidewalks last week)

There probably are more examples.  It's not that the City doesn't care, but various City departments don't have the staff to enforce the current codes. (And cases are complaint-driven, as you stated).  That's why I wasn't too keen on the push for RDO zoning.  The City doesn't/won't/can't enforce its current regulations/codes/policies, let alone new ones.  It boils down to who complains, not the actual problem or code infraction.

Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

 
  Hosted by TulsaConnect and Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
 

Mission

 

"TulsaNow's Mission is to help Tulsa become the most vibrant, diverse, sustainable and prosperous city of our size. We achieve this by focusing on the development of Tulsa's distinctive identity and economic growth around a dynamic, urban core, complemented by a constellation of livable, thriving communities."
more...

 

Contact

 

2210 S Main St.
Tulsa, OK 74114
(918) 409-2669
info@tulsanow.org